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Xabi Alonso & Sergio Ramos

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There's a lot of gamesmanship in football; and it would be in the interests of football if it were all stamped out.

From conning the ref to play-acting to diving to time-wasting and the crap XAbi and Ramos did.

There's no point though highlighting one aspect of gamesmanship without accepting that it ALL has to be eradicated.
 
[quote author=SaintGeorge67 link=topic=42907.msg1223198#msg1223198 date=1290602326]
[quote author=keniget link=topic=42907.msg1223196#msg1223196 date=1290602152]
So what. Players dive, get players unfairly booked and sent off, lie to refs etc. This is no different.

Football is not a 'fair' game.
[/quote]

That doesn't make it right though.

Goal line technology is the main talking point within football, but if they could sort out one thing I'd want it to be diving.

Won't happen though.
[/quote]


i agree. i can't believe people can't see that it's cheating. i mean, yeah, i find it funny and it's wonderfully audacious, but the moral case against it is undeniable.

if uefa have got any balls at all they'll fine real and give ramos and alonso 2 game bans - which of course means they'll do fuck all. the fact that 'everyone does it' is fucking irrelevant: that doesn't mean it's tolerated, just that it's usually too subtle to punish. this isn't subtle at all, and therefore something should be done about it.
 
[quote author=peterhague link=topic=42907.msg1223212#msg1223212 date=1290603529]
[quote author=SaintGeorge67 link=topic=42907.msg1223198#msg1223198 date=1290602326]
[quote author=keniget link=topic=42907.msg1223196#msg1223196 date=1290602152]
So what. Players dive, get players unfairly booked and sent off, lie to refs etc. This is no different.

Football is not a 'fair' game.
[/quote]

That doesn't make it right though.

Goal line technology is the main talking point within football, but if they could sort out one thing I'd want it to be diving.

Won't happen though.
[/quote]


i agree. i can't believe people can't see that it's cheating. i mean, yeah, i find it funny and it's wonderfully audacious, but the moral case against it is undeniable.

if uefa have got any balls at all they'll fine real and give ramos and alonso 2 game bans - which of course means they'll do fuck all. the fact that 'everyone does it' is fucking irrelevant: that doesn't mean it's tolerated, just that it's usually too subtle to punish. this isn't subtle at all, and therefore something should be done about it.
[/quote]
That's a very good post right there.
 
[quote author=peterhague link=topic=42907.msg1223212#msg1223212 date=1290603529]
[quote author=SaintGeorge67 link=topic=42907.msg1223198#msg1223198 date=1290602326]
[quote author=keniget link=topic=42907.msg1223196#msg1223196 date=1290602152]
So what. Players dive, get players unfairly booked and sent off, lie to refs etc. This is no different.

Football is not a 'fair' game.
[/quote]

That doesn't make it right though.

Goal line technology is the main talking point within football, but if they could sort out one thing I'd want it to be diving.

Won't happen though.
[/quote]


i agree. i can't believe people can't see that it's cheating. i mean, yeah, i find it funny and it's wonderfully audacious, but the moral case against it is undeniable.

if uefa have got any balls at all they'll fine real and give ramos and alonso 2 game bans - which of course means they'll do fuck all. the fact that 'everyone does it' is fucking irrelevant: that doesn't mean it's tolerated, just that it's usually too subtle to punish. this isn't subtle at all, and therefore something should be done about it.
[/quote]

I don't agree with you at all. If UEFA have any balls they'll review the rule that made this possible. Singling out Real now would be just like sweeping the problem under a carpet.
 
[quote author=Insignificance link=topic=42907.msg1223202#msg1223202 date=1290602741]
Should have been straight red for the second guy with a lengthy ban on the end of it.
[/quote]

The 'second guy'?

Anyway, like I said before, shouldn't the ref's common sense, or lack of it, be the one in question here?

Why would they be time wasting, four goals up with less than ten minutes to go when Ajax never looked like scoring?

Blame the dumb ref.
 
[quote author=Akakabooto link=topic=42907.msg1223219#msg1223219 date=1290604153]
[quote author=peterhague link=topic=42907.msg1223212#msg1223212 date=1290603529]
[quote author=SaintGeorge67 link=topic=42907.msg1223198#msg1223198 date=1290602326]
[quote author=keniget link=topic=42907.msg1223196#msg1223196 date=1290602152]
So what. Players dive, get players unfairly booked and sent off, lie to refs etc. This is no different.

Football is not a 'fair' game.
[/quote]

That doesn't make it right though.

Goal line technology is the main talking point within football, but if they could sort out one thing I'd want it to be diving.

Won't happen though.
[/quote]


i agree. i can't believe people can't see that it's cheating. i mean, yeah, i find it funny and it's wonderfully audacious, but the moral case against it is undeniable.

if uefa have got any balls at all they'll fine real and give ramos and alonso 2 game bans - which of course means they'll do fuck all. the fact that 'everyone does it' is fucking irrelevant: that doesn't mean it's tolerated, just that it's usually too subtle to punish. this isn't subtle at all, and therefore something should be done about it.
[/quote]

I don't agree with you at all. If UEFA have any balls they'll review the rule that made this possible. Singling out Real now would be just like sweeping the problem under a carpet.
[/quote]
I'm sure there's no rule saying that you may not whistle or in any way try to copy the refs whistle either.

Barcas keeper Pinto still got a two match ban after he did exactly that because of this obvious apparent lack of gamemanship.

Same logic should apply with regards to Real's redcard-speculating players last night. Because of the apparent lack of gamemanship from manager to players.

If it wasn't unsporting behaviour btw why was Mourinho then so evidently trying to disguise their obvious plan? Afterwards even claiming that he felt the red cards were harsh?
 
[quote author=LadyRed link=topic=42907.msg1223220#msg1223220 date=1290604470]
[quote author=Insignificance link=topic=42907.msg1223202#msg1223202 date=1290602741]
Should have been straight red for the second guy with a lengthy ban on the end of it.
[/quote]

The 'second guy'?

Anyway, like I said before, shouldn't the ref's common sense, or lack of it, be the one in question here?

Why would they be time wasting, four goals up with less than ten minutes to go when Ajax never looked like scoring?

Blame the dumb ref.
[/quote]
That's a moot point really.

By same logic you should always blame the ref not the player when a foul is given to someone who's obviously diving/cheating. Maybe he wasn't aware - like a few of the Ajax-players afterwards - why the Real-players actually acted like they did.
 
[quote author=KHL link=topic=42907.msg1223221#msg1223221 date=1290604552]
[quote author=Akakabooto link=topic=42907.msg1223219#msg1223219 date=1290604153]
[quote author=peterhague link=topic=42907.msg1223212#msg1223212 date=1290603529]
[quote author=SaintGeorge67 link=topic=42907.msg1223198#msg1223198 date=1290602326]
[quote author=keniget link=topic=42907.msg1223196#msg1223196 date=1290602152]
So what. Players dive, get players unfairly booked and sent off, lie to refs etc. This is no different.

Football is not a 'fair' game.
[/quote]

That doesn't make it right though.

Goal line technology is the main talking point within football, but if they could sort out one thing I'd want it to be diving.

Won't happen though.
[/quote]


i agree. i can't believe people can't see that it's cheating. i mean, yeah, i find it funny and it's wonderfully audacious, but the moral case against it is undeniable.

if uefa have got any balls at all they'll fine real and give ramos and alonso 2 game bans - which of course means they'll do fuck all. the fact that 'everyone does it' is fucking irrelevant: that doesn't mean it's tolerated, just that it's usually too subtle to punish. this isn't subtle at all, and therefore something should be done about it.
[/quote]

I don't agree with you at all. If UEFA have any balls they'll review the rule that made this possible. Singling out Real now would be just like sweeping the problem under a carpet.
[/quote]
I'm sure there's no rule saying that you may not whistle or in any way try to copy the refs whistle either.

Barcas keeper Pinto still got a two match ban after he did exactly that because of this obvious apparent lack of gamemanship.

Same logic should apply with regards to Real's redcard-speculating players last night. Because of the apparent lack of gamemanship from manager to players.

If it wasn't unsporting behaviour btw why was Mourinho then so evidently trying to disguise their obvious plan? Afterwards even claiming that he felt the red cards were harsh?
[/quote]

For the last fucking time: singling out Real isn't the answer.
 
'singling out real', christ what laughable horseshit that is. they singled themselves out by very blatantly cheating. the possibility that the rule is flawed is completely irrelevant: it is the rule, and it must be abided by, and i include the spirit of the rule in that.

anyway, i may have been unfair on uefa, because apparently they're going to investigate the incident and action may be taken against the players. good.
 
Wouldn't it be great if it turned out that Alonso and Ramos had waged big on at least two red cards in the game?
 
[quote author=Akakabooto link=topic=42907.msg1223223#msg1223223 date=1290604708]
[quote author=KHL link=topic=42907.msg1223221#msg1223221 date=1290604552]
[quote author=Akakabooto link=topic=42907.msg1223219#msg1223219 date=1290604153]
[quote author=peterhague link=topic=42907.msg1223212#msg1223212 date=1290603529]
[quote author=SaintGeorge67 link=topic=42907.msg1223198#msg1223198 date=1290602326]
[quote author=keniget link=topic=42907.msg1223196#msg1223196 date=1290602152]
So what. Players dive, get players unfairly booked and sent off, lie to refs etc. This is no different.

Football is not a 'fair' game.
[/quote]

That doesn't make it right though.

Goal line technology is the main talking point within football, but if they could sort out one thing I'd want it to be diving.

Won't happen though.
[/quote]


i agree. i can't believe people can't see that it's cheating. i mean, yeah, i find it funny and it's wonderfully audacious, but the moral case against it is undeniable.

if uefa have got any balls at all they'll fine real and give ramos and alonso 2 game bans - which of course means they'll do fuck all. the fact that 'everyone does it' is fucking irrelevant: that doesn't mean it's tolerated, just that it's usually too subtle to punish. this isn't subtle at all, and therefore something should be done about it.
[/quote]

I don't agree with you at all. If UEFA have any balls they'll review the rule that made this possible. Singling out Real now would be just like sweeping the problem under a carpet.
[/quote]
I'm sure there's no rule saying that you may not whistle or in any way try to copy the refs whistle either.

Barcas keeper Pinto still got a two match ban after he did exactly that because of this obvious apparent lack of gamemanship.

Same logic should apply with regards to Real's redcard-speculating players last night. Because of the apparent lack of gamemanship from manager to players.

If it wasn't unsporting behaviour btw why was Mourinho then so evidently trying to disguise their obvious plan? Afterwards even claiming that he felt the red cards were harsh?
[/quote]

For the last fucking time: singling out Real isn't the answer.
[/quote]
You can swear all you want, they were the ones singling themselves out.
 
[quote author=peterhague link=topic=42907.msg1223224#msg1223224 date=1290604721]
'singling out real', christ what laughable horseshit that is. they singled themselves out by very blatantly cheating. the possibility that the rule is flawed is completely irrelevant: it is the rule, and it must be abided by, and i include the spirit of the rule in that.

anyway, i may have been unfair on uefa, because apparently they're going to investigate the incident and action may be taken against the players. good.
[/quote]

So Real players get punished and then what? Next year in the same situation they'll just kick Suarez instead. This doesn't solve the problem at all.

This is all so hypocritical bullshit.
 
[quote author=SaintGeorge67 link=topic=42907.msg1223229#msg1223229 date=1290604991]
What should the ref have done?
[/quote]

He should have said:"Please stop it you are making football look stupid. Go kick someone instead, then I'll send you off"
 
[quote author=Akakabooto link=topic=42907.msg1223227#msg1223227 date=1290604888]
[quote author=peterhague link=topic=42907.msg1223224#msg1223224 date=1290604721]
'singling out real', christ what laughable horseshit that is. they singled themselves out by very blatantly cheating. the possibility that the rule is flawed is completely irrelevant: it is the rule, and it must be abided by, and i include the spirit of the rule in that.

anyway, i may have been unfair on uefa, because apparently they're going to investigate the incident and action may be taken against the players. good.
[/quote]

So Real players get punished and then what? Next year in the same situation they'll just kick Suarez instead. This doesn't solve the problem at all.

This is all so hypocritical bullshit.
[/quote]
No it's not.

I'm not saying they are the only ones to have ever speculated in this, Oncy's already mentioned a Kuyt incident which I vaguely remember too, but surely that doesn't make it more right? Real did nothing to hide their intentions and yet they still tried to hide them.

It was embarrassing to watch and they should be punished for their complete lack of respect for the game, their opponents and the fans.
 
The point is people were not getting quite so hysterical when it was one of our own.
 
[quote author=Akakabooto link=topic=42907.msg1223231#msg1223231 date=1290605070]
[quote author=SaintGeorge67 link=topic=42907.msg1223229#msg1223229 date=1290604991]
What should the ref have done?
[/quote]

He should have said:"Please stop it you are making football look stupid. Go kick someone instead, then I'll send you off"
[/quote]
You are amazingly trying to remove every last bit of responsibility from the players and managers here. No one forced their hands you know. And again why do you think Mourinho is doing his utmost to disguise it all? He knows it's dodgy that's why.

The rule is flawed but Real put the game in discredit with their ways last night. No matter how much you claim otherwise. It wasn't the rule-makers it was Alonso, Ramos and Mourinho who chosed to ruin the last ten minutes of last nights game to get an advantage in the latter stages of the tournament.
 
[quote author=Akakabooto link=topic=42907.msg1223227#msg1223227 date=1290604888]
[quote author=peterhague link=topic=42907.msg1223224#msg1223224 date=1290604721]
'singling out real', christ what laughable horseshit that is. they singled themselves out by very blatantly cheating. the possibility that the rule is flawed is completely irrelevant: it is the rule, and it must be abided by, and i include the spirit of the rule in that.

anyway, i may have been unfair on uefa, because apparently they're going to investigate the incident and action may be taken against the players. good.
[/quote]

So Real players get punished and then what? Next year in the same situation they'll just kick Suarez instead. This doesn't solve the problem at all.

This is all so hypocritical bullshit.
[/quote]

what is this huge problem with the rule? personally i don't see one. i agree with cumulative bookings equalling a suspension. the real problem is that the CL has become such a tedious, money-spinning procession that meaningless group stage matches are basically inevitable. that's what uefa should be concentrating on: the massive disparities between the top 12 or so clubs and the rest of europe. a return to pure knockout would be a step in the right direction, but then the big boys would never agree to that because not enough guaranteed games>TV income.
 
Not much seems to be going smoothly for Scottish referees at the moment, but whatever your take on the rights and wrongs of the escalating situation that may lead to a strike in the SPL spare a thought for Craig Thomson, the Renfrewshire official who was caught up in another difficult situation not of his own making in Europe last night.

Last month, Thomson was the referee who was forced to abandon the Italy v Serbia European qualifier after seven minutes due to mayhem on the terraces. On Tuesday night in the Amsterdam Arena he must have thought he was in calmer waters as Real Madrid comfortably scored four goals to no reply against Ajax in the Champions League, yet with the clock on 85 minutes José Mourinho's team proved otherwise.

Briefly, Real contrived to have two men dismissed for second yellows in the last five minutes of the game, conveniently forcing them to miss the last, meaningless group game against Auxerre but be ready with a clean slate when the competition resumes again after Christmas. If you missed this priceless bit of low cunning and dubious drama, simply search for Xabi Alonso red card or Sergio Ramos red card and judge for yourself whether the two endlessly hesitant takers of restarts knew what they were doing.

With five minutes to go Alonso takes an eternity to launch a free kick from his own half, stopping at least twice on the run up then each time going back to take a longer one. With Ajax players complaining bitterly, the referee eventually comes across to produce the necessary second yellow and order him off. Then, in the 90th minute, no less, Ramos takes a goal kick instead of the goalkeeper and is similarly tardy, clearly to the annoyance of the Ajax captain. The Ajax captain happens to be Luis Suárez, that well known Uruguayan pillar of fair play, the one who gained notoriety in South Africa by keeping out a goal-bound shot with his hands then celebrating as Ghana's Asamoah Gyan missed the subsequent last-minute penalty.

Suárez has also just been dubbed "the cannibal of Ajax" by the Dutch press, fined by his own club and could be banned for seven matches by the Dutch Football Federation after biting an opponent on the shoulder in the last league game against PSV, but never mind that for now. Suárez complains furiously about Ramos's unsporting behaviour, and even though the result is certain and the game is in its dying seconds, the referee decides he has a point and shows the Real defender red. To complete the pantomime, Ramos shakes Thomson's hand before leaving the pitch, Mourinho jumps up in his technical area and begins reorganising his troops as if he has just lost a key player with the game scoreless and an hour still to play, and afterwards, naturally, everyone from Madrid denies that there was any kind of pre-arranged plan.

So what should happen now? Before considering that, let us return to what happened on the night, and see if anything else could or should have been done differently. It is easy to say that Thomson should have seen through the ruse, but even if he did, what alternative action could he have taken? Leaving aside considerations of premeditation and convenience, he was confronted by two clear examples of unsporting behaviour, timewasting, and reluctance to restart the game. Maybe, to make the official's job easier, the Ajax players and spectators ought not to have complained but fallen about laughing instead, indicating that now the result was beyond them they couldn't care less how long it took Real to restart.

Maybe, but football doesn't really work like that, and neither do referees have a remit for such lenience. Their chief consideration at such times is to get the game restarted as quickly as possible – otherwise players would undoubtedly start re-tying their bootlaces or changing their shin-pads before taking free kicks – and regardless of whether he knew what Real's timewasters were up to Thomson had little choice but to observe the normal rule book.

Uefa now have a choice over whether to take any further action or sweep the matter under their capacious carpet. They probably ought not to do anything retrospectively, since any wrongdoing on the part of Alonso and Ramos would, even if proven, amount only to exploitation of an obvious and long-standing loophole in the rules as they presently stand. Plenty of other players have done the same. They could consider bringing in an umbrella charge for the future, that of bringing the game into disrepute, which carries a two- or three-match suspension, in the hope that such a threat would dissuade players from skulduggery. Perhaps something even more clever could be dreamed up. Dead rubbers could be excluded for suspension purposes, for example, or players warned in advance of these foreseeable and fairly regularly occurring situations that anything resembling a deliberate booking would count double.

Or maybe Uefa should simply ignore the fuss and carry on. It is not, after all, as if a major injustice has been perpetrated. Nothing comparable to what Suárez got away with in Soccer City in July. While one could feel a bit sorry for the referee in Amsterdam, sympathy was limited for the Ajax captain, and it is hard to cast Mourinho and his players as villains. Perhaps when you have qualified with a couple of games to spare, then taken a 4-0 lead away from home in your penultimate group match, you have earned the right to bend the rules a little. Even if it was not the most edifying of spectacles right at the end, there are definitely worse things in football to complain about.
 
[quote author=peterhague link=topic=42907.msg1223237#msg1223237 date=1290605887]
[quote author=Akakabooto link=topic=42907.msg1223227#msg1223227 date=1290604888]
[quote author=peterhague link=topic=42907.msg1223224#msg1223224 date=1290604721]
'singling out real', christ what laughable horseshit that is. they singled themselves out by very blatantly cheating. the possibility that the rule is flawed is completely irrelevant: it is the rule, and it must be abided by, and i include the spirit of the rule in that.

anyway, i may have been unfair on uefa, because apparently they're going to investigate the incident and action may be taken against the players. good.
[/quote]

So Real players get punished and then what? Next year in the same situation they'll just kick Suarez instead. This doesn't solve the problem at all.

This is all so hypocritical bullshit.
[/quote]

what is this huge problem with the rule? personally i don't see one. i agree with cumulative bookings equalling a suspension. the real problem is that the CL has become such a tedious, money-spinning procession that meaningless group stage matches are basically inevitable. that's what uefa should be concentrating on: the massive disparities between the top 12 or so clubs and the rest of europe. a return to pure knockout would be a step in the right direction, but then the big boys would never agree to that because not enough guaranteed games>TV income.
[/quote]

Oh yes I agree with you there. And I don't think there is a huge problem with the rule. I just find it ridiculous if they are to punish one team for doing what everyone have been doing for ages. If they think it is a problem then the right answer would be to review the rule that made this possible.

And if they punish Real on this incident it is just because it hurts the image of the competition(i.e. the money side of things).
 
The Real camp are today claiming their players weren't trying to get red-carded on purpose.

I would've had more respect for their shenanigans last night would they at least admit what they were trying to achieve. More focus on the flawed rule perhaps and less on their disrespectful manners and now stupid lies too.
 
Yes people have been doing this for years but has it ever been as blatant or daring as this? At least Beckham pulled a jersey to get his booking so he would miss the Azerbaijan qualifer that time.

This was overt, blatant rule bending. I think it's hilarious and hats off for the sheer audacity of it all but I can understand those who feel it brings the game into disrepute. If this was a video on youtube from some backwater team people would be laughing at how they blatantly had men sent off. However since it was Mourinho and Real Madrid the situation is magnified and they should know better not to administer such tactics with such arrogance. Then again, it is Mourinho and Madrid, brash confidence is a way of life for them.
 
[quote author=SaintGeorge67 link=topic=42907.msg1223229#msg1223229 date=1290604991]
What should the ref have done?
[/quote]

Realise that they were gaining no advantage in the game by time wasting and not booking them?

And no khl, it's not the same as giving a foul for a dive, as that's something that's far more subjective.
 
[quote author=KHL link=topic=42907.msg1223236#msg1223236 date=1290605777]
[quote author=Akakabooto link=topic=42907.msg1223231#msg1223231 date=1290605070]
[quote author=SaintGeorge67 link=topic=42907.msg1223229#msg1223229 date=1290604991]
What should the ref have done?
[/quote]

He should have said:"Please stop it you are making football look stupid. Go kick someone instead, then I'll send you off"
[/quote]
You are amazingly trying to remove every last bit of responsibility from the players and managers here. No one forced their hands you know. And again why do you think Mourinho is doing his utmost to disguise it all? He knows it's dodgy that's why.

The rule is flawed but Real put the game in discredit with their ways last night. No matter how much you claim otherwise. It wasn't the rule-makers it was Alonso, Ramos and Mourinho who chosed to ruin the last ten minutes of last nights game to get an advantage in the latter stages of the tournament.
[/quote]

I probably shouldn't reply anymore but I missed this post earlier.

Where have I tried to remove responsibility from the players? All I'm saying Real should be treated just as everyone else have been treated in these situations.

And of course Mourinho won't admit to it all, neither have anyone else who've done it before. If Rafa was asked if he ordered Kuyt to take a yellow against PSV would he have said yes?
 
I'm not sure what the ref did wrong. The players were pissing around so he did his job. The moral issues etc are not his problem.
 
[quote author=SaintGeorge67 link=topic=42907.msg1223253#msg1223253 date=1290608984]
I'm not sure what the ref did wrong. The players were pissing around so he did his job. The moral issues etc are not his problem.
[/quote]

Surely some common sense needs to be applied. Usually if a player is booked for 'time wasting' it's because they are deemed to be gaining an advantage for their team, Alonso and Ramos clearly weren't, shouldn't bookings like this be with some sort of context?
 
[quote author=SaintGeorge67 link=topic=42907.msg1223253#msg1223253 date=1290608984]
I'm not sure what the ref did wrong. The players were pissing around so he did his job. The moral issues etc are not his problem.
[/quote]

Agreed.

Acually just read a headline about Ramos saying it was all refs fault and that he shouldn't have been sent off. That is a bit rich.
 
[quote author=LadyRed link=topic=42907.msg1223256#msg1223256 date=1290609067]
[quote author=SaintGeorge67 link=topic=42907.msg1223253#msg1223253 date=1290608984]
I'm not sure what the ref did wrong. The players were pissing around so he did his job. The moral issues etc are not his problem.
[/quote]

Surely some common sense needs to be applied. Usually if a player is booked for 'time wasting' it's because they are deemed to be gaining an advantage for their team, Alonso and Ramos clearly weren't, shouldn't bookings like this be with some sort of context?
[/quote]


it's unrealistic to expect a ref to try to second-guess motives, surely? i think it's a bit harsh to expect them to do anything more than administer the rules.

i quite like the idea of just having suspensions not applying to 'dead rubber' games, and carrying over to the next available competitive match.
 
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