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US Election thread - Kamala v Donald

Oh Dont get me wrong, Im with Bernie on this...
Its obvious she didnt appeal that much to the progressive electorate, she's too much like a Starmer or Macron in the centre of political spectrum and people dont want that anymore.
Those centrist policies have brought the far right/populist to power.

Democrats have to find a younger version of Bernie now and stand as a strong opposition in the house and try to flip one of Houses at Midterms.
After 2 years of Tax cuts for Billionaires and a bigger deficit, workers will maybe realise that being screwd once again by Trump is too much
 
Oh Dont get me wrong, Im with Bernie on this...
Its obvious she didnt appeal that much to the progressive electorate, she's too much like a Starmer or Macron in the centre of political spectrum and people dont want that anymore.
Those centrist policies have brought the far right/populist to power.

Democrats have to find a younger version of Bernie now and stand as a strong opposition in the house and try to flip one of Houses at Midterms.
After 2 years of Tax cuts for Billionaires and a bigger deficit, workers will maybe realise that being screwd once again by Trump is too much

Both Macron and Starmer have won elections in relatively recent history though.

If the Democrats went for anyone who could be seen as left wing (rightly or wrongly) they'd get nowhere.
 
American politics is insane, really. It's crazy how far the shift to the right (economically) has gone. I keep on reading stories about Americans in Europe being flabbergasted by how many holidays we get and how cheap medicines such as insulin are etc. Imagine living in the richest country on Earth but you're afraid to phone for an ambulance because you can't afford it?

We know a girl here who helps out with the local basketball team and one of her duties is to help the two American girls with translations if they need it. She accompanied one to a public hospital one night and my wife asked her what the American thought about the state of the public hospital and she was told that she didn't care as she didn't have to pay anything.
 
From the outside this seems to my mind a salutary lesson in how labelling citizens with all the usual epithets adding that they are also 'garbage' is a surefire way of losing an election.

On the matter of morals I dare say that as with Trump there are plenty of others, and particularly the Bidens, that have much they don't want brought into the light. I'd say they're fairly anxious right about now.

Also how do you make a guy like Trump appear to be persecuted and therefore enable an additional sympathy vote? I've heard a few Americans who tell me that the labels applied to Trump (Nazi, Hitler, Dictator etc etc) are widely held to be manufactured.

Desperate propaganda is easily seen through.
 
American politics is insane, really. It's crazy how far the shift to the right (economically) has gone. I keep on reading stories about Americans in Europe being flabbergasted by how many holidays we get and how cheap medicines such as insulin are etc. Imagine living in the richest country on Earth but you're afraid to phone for an ambulance because you can't afford it?

We know a girl here who helps out with the local basketball team and one of her duties is to help the two American girls with translations if they need it. She accompanied one to a public hospital one night and my wife asked her what the American thought about the state of the public hospital and she was told that she didn't care as she didn't have to pay anything.

Americans especially republicans do not get health care. "Why should the poor get free health care? They should get insurance like the rest of us..." yeah but what if they can't afford insurance? "Tough!! They are a bum, i'm not paying for someone elses treatment"

Real conversation I had many years ago with someone who had a college education.
 
Americans especially republicans do not get health care. "Why should the poor get free health care? They should get insurance like the rest of us..." yeah but what if they can't afford insurance? "Tough!! They are a bum, i'm not paying for someone elses treatment"

Real conversation I had many years ago with someone who had a college education.
Yes, I remember an American friend posting the same argument on facebook a few years ago.
 
Americans especially republicans do not get health care. "Why should the poor get free health care? They should get insurance like the rest of us..." yeah but what if they can't afford insurance? "Tough!! They are a bum, i'm not paying for someone elses treatment"

Real conversation I had many years ago with someone who had a college education.
They also don’t like it when you point out that is how insurance works.
 
Oh Dont get me wrong, Im with Bernie on this...
Its obvious she didnt appeal that much to the progressive electorate, she's too much like a Starmer or Macron in the centre of political spectrum and people dont want that anymore.
Those centrist policies have brought the far right/populist to power.

Democrats have to find a younger version of Bernie now and stand as a strong opposition in the house and try to flip one of Houses at Midterms.
After 2 years of Tax cuts for Billionaires and a bigger deficit, workers will maybe realise that being screwd once again by Trump is too much

I'm not a Bernie guy at all - but he stated the obvious, so I thought it was worth sharing to start the post.
I think Kamala actually did appeal to most of the progressive electorate - the issue is imo the working class, be it white, latino or black ...
Get them, win the election ... focus on those who are in a better place, struggle against a rather average Republican showing time after time.
 
If Dems thought that Kamala was suitable to be the next President, they wouldn't have hidden her from view for 4 years. It was incredibly transparent they she was selected by default - and that is highlighted by the low turn out.
 
Trump’s first appointment is the first female chief of staff in history.

Super misogynistic.

I think you'll find that a lifetime of raping and sexually assaulting women tips the scale more than appointing a woman to a position in his realm does...

And that's my last word on this vile cunt. Anybody who pretends that he's not EXACTLY what he continuously proves himself to be simply isn't open to any kind of reasonable discussion... I'd have more respect for people if they just said 'Yeah, he's vile, but I don't care, because he hates the same people that I hate, and we won'.
 
I think you'll find that a lifetime of raping and sexually assaulting women tips the scale more than appointing a woman to a position in his realm does...

And that's my last word on this vile cunt. Anybody who pretends that he's not EXACTLY what he continuously proves himself to be simply isn't open to any kind of reasonable discussion... I'd have more respect for people if they just said 'Yeah, he's vile, but I don't care, because he hates the same people that I hate, and we won'.
Ok.
 
From the outside this seems to my mind a salutary lesson in how labelling citizens with all the usual epithets adding that they are also 'garbage' is a surefire way of losing an election.

On the matter of morals I dare say that as with Trump there are plenty of others, and particularly the Bidens, that have much they don't want brought into the light. I'd say they're fairly anxious right about now.

Also how do you make a guy like Trump appear to be persecuted and therefore enable an additional sympathy vote? I've heard a few Americans who tell me that the labels applied to Trump (Nazi, Hitler, Dictator etc etc) are widely held to be manufactured.

Desperate propaganda is easily seen through.
I do think labelling the opposition as garbage is counter-productive and I think Kamala was careful not to fall into this trap which had bitten Hilary previously. Unfortunately the senile standing president did not do Kamala any favours with that comment and his explanation wasn’t very believable. However, how is it that Trump or people close to him can get away the name calling of the Dem's or the left - 'the enemy from within' or 'criminals' for example?

With regards to making Trump appear to be persecuted by using the fascist/Nazi slur, why does this not work the other way round? Kamala has been the butt of many ridiculous labels but just focusing on the most common; her being a communist - where is the evidence for this? The Democratic party isnt even left wing as per normal standards let alone socialist. Lets look at the evidence of Trump being a fascist; denial of any election that goes against him, prioritisation of loyalty over democratic principles, how he has tried to centralise power within the executive branch such as ordering people within the DOJ and firing them if they do not comply and lastly, January 6th (the riot wasn’t even the worst part of this day, it was the fake elector scheme - have you even heard of this?). Lets not forget that there are a significant amount of his own senior staff that have called out his fascist tendencies as well as his VP calling him Hitler.

Regarding your morals comment, that’s the both sides as bad as each other argument that I would expect from a Fox news hack but is unfortunately widespread amongst all the classic liberal/moderate/ just asking questions and definitely not right wing podcasters like Rogan, Tim Pool, Dave Rubin and Konstantin Kisin. Regarding Hunter Biden, he wasn’t part of the Democratic party and has been convicted with 3 felonies. With regards to the claims of Joe Biden being involved in the criminal dealings, the evidence for this was thrown out of court due to a witness lacking credibility. Do I really need to list the charges and conviction of Trump as well as the criminals that have served underneath him? Let me guess, all made up by the deep state?!

I get why the working class and the white male feel forgotten, and whilst I do think Trump or any other populist are unlikely to give tangible long term benefits to these demographic groups, I do understand why they feel heard by their rhetoric. I think the Dems and left are scoring an own goal by not addressing why these demographic groups are moving away from voting for them. However I do think they are fighting an uphill, if not losing battle.

Personally I think Bannon's tactic of 'flooding the zone with shit' works and has a large part to play in the current climate. It becomes difficult to establish the truth, especially on complex and nuanced topics, therefore its just easier to go with your bias. Yes that obviously applies to the left as well, but in the information economy that we live in, that can be gamed by the bad faith actors to win. Even before Musk took over Twitter, I always felt the right were better at gaming the algorithms, they recognised that emotion is more important than facts (remember Cambridge Analytica?!). When the algorithms disproportionally give a voice to fake news, the crazies and rage, the left versus right divide that always existed now feels like we are edging to a civil war. Its why I think these strong leaders become more popular, and its why authoritarianism doesn’t sound like a bad idea for some anymore. If your problems and complex issues can always be explained by the deep state / elite making you the victim, then there is only one man that can fix it!

Unless you can give me a lesson on why you can see through the lefts desperate propaganda? Moreoever, feel free to explain why there is a different standard applied to Trump when it comes to name calling, or why despite evidence to the contrary, Trumps discretions are the equivalent to any of the Dem's?
 
I think you'll find that a lifetime of raping and sexually assaulting women tips the scale more than appointing a woman to a position in his realm does...

And that's my last word on this vile cunt. Anybody who pretends that he's not EXACTLY what he continuously proves himself to be simply isn't open to any kind of reasonable discussion... I'd have more respect for people if they just said 'Yeah, he's vile, but I don't care, because he hates the same people that I hate, and we won'.

I commend you for your magnaminity in defeat.
 
I do think labelling the opposition as garbage is counter-productive and I think Kamala was careful not to fall into this trap which had bitten Hilary previously. Unfortunately the senile standing president did not do Kamala any favours with that comment and his explanation wasn’t very believable. However, how is it that Trump or people close to him can get away the name calling of the Dem's or the left - 'the enemy from within' or 'criminals' for example?

With regards to making Trump appear to be persecuted by using the fascist/Nazi slur, why does this not work the other way round? Kamala has been the butt of many ridiculous labels but just focusing on the most common; her being a communist - where is the evidence for this? The Democratic party isnt even left wing as per normal standards let alone socialist. Lets look at the evidence of Trump being a fascist; denial of any election that goes against him, prioritisation of loyalty over democratic principles, how he has tried to centralise power within the executive branch such as ordering people within the DOJ and firing them if they do not comply and lastly, January 6th (the riot wasn’t even the worst part of this day, it was the fake elector scheme - have you even heard of this?). Lets not forget that there are a significant amount of his own senior staff that have called out his fascist tendencies as well as his VP calling him Hitler.

Regarding your morals comment, that’s the both sides as bad as each other argument that I would expect from a Fox news hack but is unfortunately widespread amongst all the classic liberal/moderate/ just asking questions and definitely not right wing podcasters like Rogan, Tim Pool, Dave Rubin and Konstantin Kisin. Regarding Hunter Biden, he wasn’t part of the Democratic party and has been convicted with 3 felonies. With regards to the claims of Joe Biden being involved in the criminal dealings, the evidence for this was thrown out of court due to a witness lacking credibility. Do I really need to list the charges and conviction of Trump as well as the criminals that have served underneath him? Let me guess, all made up by the deep state?!

I get why the working class and the white male feel forgotten, and whilst I do think Trump or any other populist are unlikely to give tangible long term benefits to these demographic groups, I do understand why they feel heard by their rhetoric. I think the Dems and left are scoring an own goal by not addressing why these demographic groups are moving away from voting for them. However I do think they are fighting an uphill, if not losing battle.

Personally I think Bannon's tactic of 'flooding the zone with shit' works and has a large part to play in the current climate. It becomes difficult to establish the truth, especially on complex and nuanced topics, therefore its just easier to go with your bias. Yes that obviously applies to the left as well, but in the information economy that we live in, that can be gamed by the bad faith actors to win. Even before Musk took over Twitter, I always felt the right were better at gaming the algorithms, they recognised that emotion is more important than facts (remember Cambridge Analytica?!). When the algorithms disproportionally give a voice to fake news, the crazies and rage, the left versus right divide that always existed now feels like we are edging to a civil war. Its why I think these strong leaders become more popular, and its why authoritarianism doesn’t sound like a bad idea for some anymore. If your problems and complex issues can always be explained by the deep state / elite making you the victim, then there is only one man that can fix it!

Unless you can give me a lesson on why you can see through the lefts desperate propaganda? Moreoever, feel free to explain why there is a different standard applied to Trump when it comes to name calling, or why despite evidence to the contrary, Trumps discretions are the equivalent to any of the Dem's?

My best lesson would be that life is unfair. If you want in-depth analysis of standards then consult US media (always impartial), they'll supply more than enough material for you to 'understand'.
 
My best lesson would be that life is unfair. If you want in-depth analysis of standards then consult US media (always impartial), they'll supply more than enough material for you to 'understand'.
So you can’t give your opinion on why you personally don’t apply the same standards to propaganda on the left versus the right? It’s just that life is unfair and you only care if your side wins?
 
So you can’t give your opinion on why you personally don’t apply the same standards to propaganda on the left versus the right? It’s just that life is unfair and you only care if your side wins?

Its not my job to apply standards to American free speech as it's er.. free speech.

So it's life being unfair when free speech doesn't suit a particular narrative.

From my limited view living in another country it just seems both sides engage in propaganda.

Suck it up.
 
Its not my job to apply standards to American free speech as it's er.. free speech.

So it's life being unfair when free speech doesn't suit a particular narrative.

From my limited view living in another country it just seems both sides engage in propaganda.

Suck it up.

You’ve spouted the same right wing talking points that someone who only has a diet of Fox News. Of course you are free to say and believe anything you want, but when I point your weak argument and provide many examples to back this up, it’s just a shrug of the shoulders from you and something about free speech.

I am asking why you apply different standards to Trump versus Kamala, not the US media, but I guess you will continue to avoid the question. As Whaddapie pointed out earlier, it would look better for you if you just said ‘Yeah, he's vile, but I don't care, because he hates the same people that I hate, and we won'. That would make you just look like a twat, but unfortunately you made yourself look like a twat as well as disingenuous and stupid to try to nonchalantly claim you are immune to desperate propaganda.

You’ve proved my point. Facts don’t matter anymore, whoever lies the most and uses dirtier tactics wins. As long as you’re beating the other side then it doesn’t really matter about authoritarianism as ‘life is unfair’.
 
You’ve spouted the same right wing talking points that someone who only has a diet of Fox News. Of course you are free to say and believe anything you want, but when I point your weak argument and provide many examples to back this up, it’s just a shrug of the shoulders from you and something about free speech.

I am asking why you apply different standards to Trump versus Kamala, not the US media, but I guess you will continue to avoid the question. As Whaddapie pointed out earlier, it would look better for you if you just said ‘Yeah, he's vile, but I don't care, because he hates the same people that I hate, and we won'. That would make you just look like a twat, but unfortunately you made yourself look like a twat as well as disingenuous and stupid to try to nonchalantly claim you are immune to desperate propaganda.

You’ve proved my point. Facts don’t matter anymore, whoever lies the most and uses dirtier tactics wins. As long as you’re beating the other side then it doesn’t really matter about authoritarianism as ‘life is unfair’.
I wondered how long it would take you to get to the abuse. Not long, just a couple of posts. There's a lesson in there for you. If you can't tolerate other peoples posts/views/standards don't engage.

It is often said that if you lose your temper and start to insult then you've lost any argument you may have had.

I'm genuinely sorry things haven't turned out as you wish but life is sometimes unfair.
 
I wondered how long it would take you to get to the abuse. Not long, just a couple of posts. There's a lesson in there for you. If you can't tolerate other peoples posts/views/standards don't engage.

It is often said that if you lose your temper and start to insult then you've lost any argument you may have had.

I'm genuinely sorry things haven't turned out as you wish but life is sometimes unfair.
I’m calling you out on not answering questions and calling it twat behaviour is hardly losing my temper. You were never going to answer any of my questions because that would have meant using reason. Good luck with your propaganda detection skills, they have served you well!
 
I’m calling you out on not answering questions and calling it twat behaviour is hardly losing my temper. You were never going to answer any of my questions because that would have meant using reason. Good luck with your propaganda detection skills, they have served you well!
Mate, much like American politics. Jexy is one of those posters who is incapable of changing his mind, direction or opinion.

Much like Trump he'll just call you fake news if you continue. So just shrug and move on.

There are a few on this site, you've lurked for a long time, hopefully you post more.
 
Not for me to persuade both of you from your biases or opinions. We all have them.

I just have a little more tolerance for different views and don't try to explain others motivations.
 
Not for me to persuade both of you from your biases or opinions. We all have them.

I just have a little more tolerance for different views and don't try to explain others motivations.
Problem is Jexy. You are all for telling people they are wrong.

But as soon as someone says "hey what about...".

You stick your fingers in your ears and just repeat nope you're wrong. Not answering legitimate questions.
 
Problem is Jexy. You are all for telling people they are wrong.

But as soon as someone says "hey what about...".

You stick your fingers in your ears and just repeat nope you're wrong. Not answering legitimate questions.
I was asked why I apply different standards to American media, I don't as I don't have access to American media other than YouTube clips.

What I did pick up on was the current President and commander in chief calling a large section of voters 'garbage' and either knowingly or unknowingly alienating many and simultaneously sabotaging his potential democrat successor.

Why would I change my mind about a fact?
 
Mate, much like American politics. Jexy is one of those posters who is incapable of changing his mind, direction or opinion.

Much like Trump he'll just call you fake news if you continue. So just shrug and move on.

There are a few on this site, you've lurked for a long time, hopefully you post more.
I genuinely like engaging with ppl who have a different opinion than me to better form my opinion or make me something from a different perspective. If someone can challenge my opinion and I have difficulty answering it then that’s a good indication that my thinking is flawed somehow and I have to take responsibility. You’re right, Jexy isn’t the person to have that conversation.
 
I genuinely like engaging with ppl who have a different opinion than me to better form my opinion or make me something from a different perspective. If someone can challenge my opinion and I have difficulty answering it then that’s a good indication that my thinking is flawed somehow and I have to take responsibility. You’re right, Jexy isn’t the person to have that conversation.

I answered your question in my previous post responding to Nomad, it's the same reason I thought the election was blown (c.f. post 154).

Regards propaganda and it's relative impact I don't know why you expect me - a non US citizen - to "give me a lesson on why you can see through the lefts desperate propaganda". I cited Americans saying that propaganda calling Trump Nazi, Racist, Hitler etc had turned many off especially then doubling down and calling them garbage.

That coupled with fielding a sub-optimal candidate (Americans saying this not me before you take exception 😉) and a campaign seemingly just 'Anti-Trump' and nothing in it for ordinary people (I'm told) that addressed their economic or cultural concerns - inflation, illegal immigration, historical revisionism, DEI sidelining meritocracy, gender matters especially in schools etc etc

Plenty of subjects for conversation there. I can't promise to agree with you or necessarily respond, or not say something that may irritate you. It's generally an open forum, most on here have been in spats before, don't take it personal.
 
I'm not sure turnout is low, votes are still being counted, they expect it to be roughly the same turnout as 2020.
10 million less voters than in 2020. Trump won the election by a slim margin of 250K votes in Mi, Wi and PA combined.
He's a crook and thats the only fact here.
 
I answered your question in my previous post responding to Nomad, it's the same reason I thought the election was blown (c.f. post 154).

Regards propaganda and it's relative impact I don't know why you expect me - a non US citizen - to "give me a lesson on why you can see through the lefts desperate propaganda". I cited Americans saying that propaganda calling Trump Nazi, Racist, Hitler etc had turned many off especially then doubling down and calling them garbage.

That coupled with fielding a sub-optimal candidate (Americans saying this not me before you take exception 😉) and a campaign seemingly just 'Anti-Trump' and nothing in it for ordinary people (I'm told) that addressed their economic or cultural concerns - inflation, illegal immigration, historical revisionism, DEI sidelining meritocracy, gender matters especially in schools etc etc

Plenty of subjects for conversation there. I can't promise to agree with you or necessarily respond, or not say something that may irritate you. It's generally an open forum, most on here have been in spats before, don't take it personal.

Why is it that you think the use of the fascist labels used by Kamala (despite a lot of evidence to back this up) was a significant factor in her loss, when Trump is also using labels such as communist (with little evidence to back this up)?

Why is it you think Biden’s moral compass is somehow comparable to Trumps, do you have any evidence to back this up?

Maybe I am missing something but I do think it’s ironic that you say you can see through the lefts desperate propaganda when it appears that you are parroting right wing propaganda. It goes back to my point in original point, emotion is more important than facts.
 
10 million less voters than in 2020. Trump won the election by a slim margin of 250K votes in Mi, Wi and PA combined.
He's a crook and thats the only fact here.

I thought it was only republican supporters who can say "stole the election" !

He won all the swing states ... that's a shock, whether it was close or not ...

It will be interesting to see how both parties 'rally' in 4 years ... Trump will be out, and both parties will have the option to rebrand or stick to their current paths. Hopefully the former ... I'm not optimistic ...
 
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