Title Defence -are we just knackered?

[Dreambeliever]

So much has been made of our injuries and form but is it as simple as the fact we don’t have the same mental desire this season.

Only City have defended the title post Utd’s dominance with City and Chelsea routinely winning a title then falling flat the following year only to bounce back again.

And it’s even more understandable considering it was 30 years for us.

The last two home games just reeked of a set of players who weren’t hungry enough.

I think we can lift for the CL and will be hard to beat and I really think we will be back to dominating next season when the week in week out hunger returns.

Sure we can beat the top boys when we pick up 7 from 21 points against the bottom 6 so far you know it’s not ability.

 

[LeTallecWiz]

no - if we had man city's or man u's injury list, we'd be top, or closer.
injuries have fucked us beyond belief this year.
if we are health next year, we'll be right up there as long as Man City don't sign Messi, Mbappe and Ronaldo

 

[Farkmaster]

no - if we had man city's or man u's injury list, we'd be top, or closer.
injuries have fucked us beyond belief this year.
if we are health next year, we'll be right up there as long as Man City don't sign Messi, Mbappe and Ronaldo

I don't think so. This team is in decline and more time won't make it less so due to the ages of our players, and our play style. A new team needs to be built and given our ownership it will have to be funded by selling salah or mane.

 

[HC]

The last two home games have reeked of not being hungry enough?

The fuck...

It reeked of a side ravaged by injuries and those on the field generally offering signs of fatigue, physical or otherwise. Were currently over-reliant upon James Milner, he looked shagged against Brighton and could barely pass the ball forward accurately toward the end of his shift. We were fucking imperious for nigh on two years, in a super athletic, physical league, there was always going to be some blow back, unfortunately for us, that started off with VVD and Gomez being broken for the season and then losing Jota, etc etc for months at a time - I don't think Hunger or desire has much to do it, looks purely physical , maybe mentally to me.

The Mentality monsters are shagged.

 

[Whaddapie]

I don't think so. This team is in decline and more time won't make it less so due to the ages of our players, and our play style. A new team needs to be built and given our ownership it will have to be funded by selling salah or mane.

I'm not sure that I see a marked decline, as much as I see simple exhaustion due to playing near flawless football for 2 solid years AND all these fucking injuries AND this insane covid-affected schedule... Don't you think, fully fit, we'd be winning this league?

 

[Best Believe It]

It's a lot of things. Tiredness is one of them, and understandable, but this is only really a factor because we haven't refreshed the squad in a meaningful sense for a few years. Not only would it allow more rest for those who've played almost constantly but it would help eliminate complacency that would be reasonably natural after having won the league comfortably.

Those we have signed that were done so to try and become established first teamers have either been crocked (Keita and Ox) or just not adapted quick enough (Minamino). I know Jota has done well so far, but that's half a season's worth of performance.

And then we've had brutal injuries that have completely wrecked the balance of the team.

 

[My_Blood_Bleeds_Red]

I dunno about the team but I work from home most of the time. Pretty much immobile as compared to a life of a footballer. And yet I’ve never been more exhausted in my whole life.

I think we sometimes forget footballers are humans like us too. That or I’ve just become very unfit.

 

[My_Blood_Bleeds_Red]

I'm not sure that I see a marked decline, as much as I see simple exhaustion due to playing near flawless football for 2 solid years AND all these fucking injuries AND this insane covid-affected schedule... Don't you think, fully fit, we'd be winning this league?

Easily.

 

[keniget]

I don't think so. This team is in decline and more time won't make it less so due to the ages of our players, and our play style. A new team needs to be built and given our ownership it will have to be funded by selling salah or mane.

I'm inclined to agree.

There is no doubt that we've been massively hampered by our injuries this year. With everyone fit I think we'd have a really good chance of winning the title again.

That being said, cracks have been starting to show for quite a while now even with everyone fit.

I'm find it boring to repeat the same shit but we've spent the last couple years sitting on our hands instead of building a squad and now we find ourselves in a position where we're going to have to do a lot of work in a short space of time.

 

[Frogfish]

I'm inclined to agree.

There is no doubt that we've been massively hampered by our injuries this year. With everyone fit I think we'd have a really good chance of winning the title again.

That being said, cracks have been starting to show for quite a while now even with everyone fit.

I'm find it boring to repeat the same shit but we've spent the last couple years sitting on our hands instead of building a squad and now we find ourselves in a position where we're going to have to do a lot of work in a short space of time.

They may not all work-out but it's not correct to say we've been sitting on our hands.

2018/19 : Fabinho, Alisson, Keita
2019/20 : Minamino
2020/21 : Jota, Thiago, Tsimikas, Davies, Kabak + in the Summer ? Plus the emergence of Jones. And yes a couple were forced but just preempting Summer (Kabak)?

Evolution not revolution? Yes we clearly could have done better in 19/20 but was it because the players Klopp wanted weren't available? We know by now they rarely panic buy.

As for the team - we'd have walked the PL this season with the majority of our players fit as per City/United. As the players have demonstrated often enough even though the consistency isn't there and there are obvious and valid reasons for that.

I also don't see any major decline (Mo is 3 clear as the PL Top Scorer, Mane has been great until recently, maybe only Bobby is struggling, surely no-one is suggesting Robbo and TAA ! So where is this decline that requires a major overhaul?

 

[My_Blood_Bleeds_Red]

The table is only as it is simply because we’ve been playing with a limp and dropped easy points, and not because any one team has dominated.

The Manc teams have been pretty meh so far.

 

[ibromurph]

When everyone was fit, we were top.

When a few big players (VVD, Gomez, Thiago) got injured, we were still top.

When a few more players got injured (Keita, Alli. Tsimikas, Trent) we were still top.

The drop off happened after Jota got injured, and the front 3, who were winning us games practically got no rotation/break.

This on top of fact that Robbo, Fab, Gini, Hendo practically got no break either.

I can't not look at our injury list and the amount of minutes some of our players have played and think we haven't been severely hampered. Not just by injuries, but by the share number of minutes those who were fit have had to play.

If there's one critique of Jurgen, you could argue that the squad is simply not good enough, as he simply hasn't been able to trust the likes of Neco, Rhys, Nate, Tsimikas, Ox, Shaq, Naby, Origi etc.

They're not the same level as a Mahrez, Mendy, Torres, Jesus, Fernandinho, Laporte or any other City sub.

We need to somehow find of upgrading the quality of our bench without paying extortionate wages to do it.

 

[King Binny]

When everyone was fit, we were top.

When a few big players (VVD, Gomez, Thiago) got injured, we were still top.

When a few more players got injured (Keita, Alli. Tsimikas, Trent) we were still top.

The drop off happened after Jota got injured, and the front 3, who were winning us games practically got no rotation/break.

This on top of fact that Robbo, Fab, Gini, Hendo practically got no break either.

I can't not look at our injury list and the amount of minutes some of our players have played and think we haven't been severely hampered. Not just by injuries, but by the share number of minutes those who were fit have had to play.

If there's one critique of Jurgen, you could argue that the squad is simply not good enough, as he simply hasn't been able to trust the likes of Neco, Rhys, Nate, Tsimikas, Ox, Shaq, Naby, Origi etc.

They're not the same level as a Mahrez, Mendy, Torres, Jesus, Fernandinho, Laporte or any other City sub.

We need to somehow find of upgrading the quality of our bench without paying extortionate wages to do it.

Ideally, we should have strengthen our squad options, given the lack of contribution (be in due to performances/injuries) of the likes of Ox, Shaqiri, Keita, Origi etc, which indirectly places more burden (both performances and game time wise) on the starting XI.

It's a blessing in disguise that AFCON was postponed, else our options will be further decimated. Given the front trio around the same age (29 - 30) + the core of our team in their peak age, the rebuilding task will be quite a challenge - can't help but wonder if we maximized/fully utilized the past transfer windows to build from position of strength.

 

[Alan Hardaker]

The injuries have eventually got to us. Weakened the squad, especially the defence. Solid defence always underpinnes the side but it's been shaken and shattered by the injuries. Hasn't helped TAA or Robbo either. All of the front 3 have been running on empty for a while. So it's been a combination of all the factors mentioned in this thread.

Just have to knuckle down, battle through it.

 

[RedStar]

So much has been made of our injuries and form but is it as simple as the fact we don’t have the same mental desire this season.

Only City have defended the title post Utd’s dominance with City and Chelsea routinely winning a title then falling flat the following year only to bounce back again.

And it’s even more understandable considering it was 30 years for us.

The last two home games just reeked of a set of players who weren’t hungry enough.

I think we can lift for the CL and will be hard to beat and I really think we will be back to dominating next season when the week in week out hunger returns.

Sure we can beat the top boys when we pick up 7 from 21 points against the bottom 6 so far you know it’s not ability.

The thing with that desire to reach the very top is when it goes you dont necessarily get it back.

Some of our players look burnt out after 3 seasons of constant Klopp ball. Im not as worried about them, they will recharge and come back.

The concern is the ones who are just phoning it at times like Firmino, Origi, Ox etc. The other issue is the age relatively speaking of our core players. Klopps style is not designed to prolong careers. I fully believe Klopp and the coaching staff assessed that they could squeeze another title run from this year before the decline deepened and a major rebuild was needed. Injuries and a massively congested fixture list made that miscalculation look foolish.

Next year I think we will have probably receeded a bit further in terms of our peak. Thats the natural cycle all teams go through, we need new blood. But not momeyball lonshots like Tsimikas or Minamino, we need signings that are going to replace or instantly compete with the current first XI.

 

[Halmeister]

It's all because you said the league was a dead rubber, you daft bastard.

 

[Holle]

No, we're shit. That's why.

 

[refugee]

The concern is the ones who are just phoning it at times like Firmino, Origi, Ox etc.

I really hate this. I don't think a single one of our players is phoning it in. Firmino has always been a player who plays in spurts. Ox is only just back from one of his many potentially career ending injuries, and Origi has never been good enough. All of them are trying.

 

[tomasjj]

Firmino not trying? Gfto

 

[RedStar]

Firmino not trying? Gfto

How do you explain the frequency of his 5/10 performances over the last 12 months

 

[moron]

Our drop in performance kind of makes sense if you consider the time of our upward trajectory which really started the moment we signed VVD - that seasons second half taking us to a CL Final, then continuing to perform consistently all the way to December 2020 where we were top of the league. It's almost exactly three years that the core players have been performing. Now we see this decline - or should it be more a case of inconsistency ? - but where we can take some relief is that the problems they are facing is one and the same in each of those bad performances (except the Newcastle game) - which is an inability to get through and create clear cut chances against tight resolute defenses. Also - think there is something in Salah/Mane/Bobby missing chances in recent games compared to past seasons.

Someone who monitors the stats of the team may know this better but it feels like we really are possession masters when we want to attack - last season and the season before much of our play was about control - now this season without the presence of taller midfielders like Fab, and Henderson - perhaps that is what has been difficult and hence we are trying to keep the ball more and restricting the opposition to get out of their own defense and there are not many transition moments (and space) to take advantage of. Plus you cannot discount the awkwardness for both TAA and Robertson in their approach without regular defenders whom they are used to work with.

I also think people are a little harsh on the likes of Origi, Ox, and Shaq for not producing stuff when coming on - lets be honest these guys have hardly had much match-time this season or even last season to get into the type of form that makes them instant hits when they come on. We know the talent is there but they need games to get into form.

Finally I would add - is that I think the combination of Milner/Gini/Thiago is not a good one - I honestly think he should play Curtis in place of one of them - at least the kid adds some dribbling and ability to get past opposition directly, and of course if Nabby is fit - he should definitely play - as I think he can unlock tight defenses.

 

[Holle]

How do you explain the frequency of his 5/10 performances over the last 12 months

You're being generous.

 

[tomasjj]

How do you explain the frequency of his 5/10 performances over the last 12 months

They are certainly not for the lack of effort.

 

[mark1975]

We were top earlier in the season, granted, but we'd also seen a drop off since winning the title, which culminated in the embarrassment against Aston Villa.

We've been disrupted, so it's difficult to predict where we would have been if everyone was fit, but I think it's safe to say we'd be higher up the league, but I do also agree with the notion that there's some decline setting in. This was a post I made when we were unsure about whether we would buy a defender, and it sums up how I still feel:

This is the whole thing I argued the toss over during the last few weeks. We don't buy a defender now, we have players continuing to plug gaps and it continues to disrupt the team.

The defense has done brilliantly without VVD. Whoever has stepped in, by and large, has done well and we've not been embarrassed like many expected we would, but we're embarrassing ourselves by becoming too easy to read and too easy to nullify.

Injuries, a lack of depth (Robbo and Trent), a few years of the same intense tactics and natural decline is pretty much where we are at. Some of it is on Klopp, some of it's on the shitty side of our financial carefulness, and some of it is on player ego - some players have won what they needed to win and are believing their own hype.

It's natural, but this is where managers really earn their crust.

 

[mark1975]

How do you explain the frequency of his 5/10 performances over the last 12 months

I wouldn't put it down to "not trying" though, that's just daft. He looks a yard off the pace. Straight away against Brighton he came deep into midfield to get the ball and was just way too slow, whereas before he would hold it up and make a yard for himself, they were straight on to him, his reactions were too slow and he was robbed of the ball. That's happened frequently over the last 12 months and isn't like the Firmino of old. For all his inconsistencies in front of goal (which have always been there), he was great at keeping possession for us up top, that's starting to get a bit beyond him, he's definitely on the decline, but I wouldn't put it down to desire.

 

[mark1975]

You put Jota and VVD back in the side and it's more solid, more aggressive and it adds more goals. It also then gives you more scope to rotate other players. You don't have Milner plugging midfield for Henderson or Fabinho, he can then cover at fullback (not ideal, but better than no option), we also don't have to suffer watching Origi come on like a square peg in a round hole every week, because you've got 4 top quality attackers to rotate (and Shaqiri adds another option). But this season has shown that a couple of players are on the wain a little, arguably Gini and Firmino (they certainly won't offer anything extra next season). I think Salah and Mane have just suffered from Firmino no longer being a reliable focal point, while a lack of rest due to Jota being injured hasn't helped either.

 

[Squiggles]

It's never one thing. Tiredness, lack of crowds, injuries, arrogance, aging squad, Klopps lack of flexibility, etc. What's clear is we have a huge summer ahead that will define the next few years.

One of Keita or Ox needs selling, Origi needs to go, Matip needs to go, Gini needs replacing, decision made over Kabac.

If we replace them with younger, resilient players then it will give the whole squad a platform to push on for greater success.

I've said it before, but squad is built on too many players who cannot meet the demands of Klopps football. We've got a huge wage bill and we can only rely on 60 percent of it. Contact injuries like Jota, VVD and Thaigo are inevitable and unlucky, but the likes of Matip, Gomez, Keita and Chamberlain frequently going down with muscle injuries has become a predictable pattern. Combine that with Minamino failing to make the grade and we can't rotate often enough to keep up match sharpness. Shaqiri has started to prove himself this year, so I think he gets a pass.

It's easy to criticise the core group, but these are the ones who have delivered success and make themselves available twice a week. The truth is its the resilience and quality of the supporting parts that is proving costly. They will only get worse with age, so it's time to be ruthless. I fear we won't be.

 

[RedStar]

One of Keita or Ox needs selling, Origi needs to go, Matip needs to go, Gini needs replacing,

This is the concern.Rebuilding isnt just about who you sign, its about calling time on the players that can no longer perform to the required standard.

Gini is gone, Milner probably should go too this summer. If one of Ox/Keita goes thats 3 midfielders we would need to replace. Add Origi and Matip on top of that, and in my opinion Firmino who has peaked and needs to be replaced. Klopp has never been ruthless about moving players on, Karius is still a Liverpool player! People complain about our lack of big name signings but its become clear we have built and expensive squad and we will need to let players go in order to replace them.

 

[Woland]

Some dude on the radio now saying that it's because we're playing Gini at number 6 instead of Hendo or Fab. Gini had no tackles and no interceptions in both of our recent home losses, where the other two are always bang at it.

 

[Squiggles]

This is the concern.Rebuilding isnt just about who you sign, its about calling time on the players that can no longer perform to the required standard.

Gini is gone, Milner probably should go too this summer. If one of Ox/Keita goes thats 3 midfielders we would need to replace. Add Origi and Matip on top of that, and in my opinion Firmino who has peaked and needs to be replaced. Klopp has never been ruthless about moving players on, Karius is still a Liverpool player! People complain about our lack of big name signings but its become clear we have built and expensive squad and we will need to let players go in order to replace them.

Fully agree, although with all the work we have to do, I would rather Milner stuck around another year. He can still do a great job when he's not playing 3 times a week.