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The Suarez/Evra Racism Row

Re: The Suarez/Evra Racism Row (continued)

I heard that Durham guy on the radio this evening. Sounds like a right cunt. I think he had even suggested that we should be docked points over the T shirts
 
Re: The Suarez/Evra Racism Row (continued)

You see, vantage, none of that matters because this all happened in England. Taking into account the fact that you're correct and - crucially, in my view - that the two players were themselves speaking Spanish at the time of the so-called offence is too much like hard work.

Adrian Durham is a rabblerouser, put there to get up people's noses. He's the one who called Carra a bottler.
 
Re: The Suarez/Evra Racism Row (continued)

He's a typical 'shock-jock'. I doubt he believes half of the shit he winds people up about.
 
Re: Re: The Suarez/Evra Racism Row (continued)

[quote author=Kenny4PM link=topic=48021.msg1#msg1 date=1324583748]
Adrian Durham was even suggesting that maybe Kenny didn't get it because he's old.
[/quote]

He clearly doesn't get it either... Been very angry with that show. Total sensationalism from top to bottom.... He is a proper knob and goughy is one thick cnut..
 
Re: The Suarez/Evra Racism Row (continued)

Ooi themn come on yaar come out here and tell us whose side you on?
 
Re: The Suarez/Evra Racism Row (continued)

Rosco's post was magnificent! Despite being inaccurate and vacuous. When he pulled out the archive of old comments, it was almost like he was putting them on the witness stand and presenting his knock down evidence like a boss. It reminded me of a scene from predators. Where the weak human knows he's losing, outnumbered and pretty much fucked. Yet he still comes out fighting and you just have to stand back and say yeah well played. Then of course the red dots appear on his forehead and it's all over.
 
Re: The Suarez/Evra Racism Row (continued)

Let me make one thing clear about the FA. Evra complained to them about racial abuse. The FA panel are the ones who then chose completely of their own volition which clauses in their regulations to charge Suarez as breaking.

All the lovely things you say the poor FA has to balance and consider. In truth they determined all of it before any charges were made, before any hearing, before listening to a word Suarez had to say in his defense. Cowards. If they wanted to make a stand against racism, they should have found rules applicable to racism and charged Suarez accordingly. They decided beforehand there was no prospect of doing so. So they knew long before the hearing Suarez was innocent. Yet like diseased cunts, they selected charges that were nothing to do with Evra's actual grievance, and then found Suarez guilty.

This is no message against racism. It is certainly not justice for Evra. It is a witch hunt by the FA. And unlike the movie predators, their stupidity has led them to make a fatal mistake in believing liverpool football club are weak prey.
 
Re: The Suarez/Evra Racism Row (continued)

Thanks. I know how the minds of physicists work. And I know how the minds of appeal panels work too. So on those two topics, there's not much that will get past my fury and hatred.
 
Re: The Suarez/Evra Racism Row (continued)

Dantes has been a fantastic poster for years, but has really stepped it up this year. Not only teaching us in respect of the conundrums of particle physics and cosmology, he now also brings his insights into the football forum.

The predator image was great.
 
Re: The Suarez/Evra Racism Row (continued)

Rory Smith take a bow

http://www.theanfieldwrap.com/2011/1...glish-disease/

Hypocrisy: the English disease

by Rory Smith // 22 December 2011 // 27 Comments

Author’s note: This is not about Luis Suarez, or Liverpool, or the Football Association, or the rights and wrongs of the case which led to the striker being suspended for eight games and fined £40,000. Enough has been written on that subject by my peers and superiors in what might be termed the football commentariat; I have little of worth to add, on that subject, and, even as a Spanish speaker and a former inhabitant of South America, have no more qualification than most to do so.
What has struck me as remarkable, in the days since the verdict was announced, was how many people “know” what Suarez said, and even why he said it. This is quite a feat, when the evidence is bafflingly yet to be released. The debate remains one of impassioned ignorance. I do not wish to become embroiled in an uninformed discussion of fairness and unfairness, of claim and counter-claim. This is not about Suarez, or Liverpool, or the FA. It is about what it is to be English, and what the last few days have shown us about our nation.

I should, of course, declare a bias; not the one that has so polarised assessment of the case and of the judgment, between those who mindlessly admit no wrongdoing on the part of a hero and those who have sought to see a man labelled a racist simply so a rival football team might be deprived of their best player, but that of the self-loathing Englishman, and that of the Hispanophile, and that of the natural, inherent contrarian. All other considerations, I hope, have been removed.

THE THREE white men sat in a room. The milky light of winter seeped through the windows. Realisation dawned in their minds. Before them was a case of the utmost complexity, but one they must unpick. They made unlikely arbiters of justice. A former football manager. The chairman of a local FA. A highly-regarded QC. Eminent in their diverse roles, of course, but now placed in a position understandably well beyond much of their experience.

The case was unprecedented: not just to them, but, as far as anyone in that room could tell, to anyone. On the surface, for all the investigation that had gone into it, it was simply one man’s word against another. Below that, at least in one interpretation, it was bound up with issues of cultural relativism it would require a scholar to explain. These three men, the lawyer, the manager, the administrator, had been selected by cruel kismet to unpick the semantics, to navigate between the nuance, and to deliver a judgment.

What’s in a word? Whichever of the two words allegedly used, no natural equivalent exists in English. It has been used both as defence and prosecution that both the words – negro and negrito *– might be used affectionately. Here, perhaps, there is a parallel. The word ‘pal’ might be used affectionately. Indeed, if you were to explain it to a non-native speaker, you would describe it, perhaps, as a friendly placeholder. Have it growled at you in Glaswegian, though, in the sentence “You looking at me, pal?” and there is nothing affectionate about it. The meaning of a word, especially a placeholder, lies in no small part in the delivery.

But what of the reference to colour? In England, that is clearly intolerable. Of that there is no question. Even in an age when we live, largely peacefully, in a multi-cultural society, we are not a country who like to mention colour. And, of course, the offence took place in England. Our house, our rules? Fine. More importantly, the central tenet of what can and cannot be defined as racist has long been seen not as the intention of the perpetrator but the interpretation of the victim.

But, then, in the plaintiff’s defence, his own cultural heritage, his own understanding of what is acceptable. In his homeland, it seems, such words are used simply as descriptives, and certainly without enormously offensive overtones. The Argentines, for example, pepper their speech with the word “che”. Mate, pal, man. It is used almost unconsciously. It can be substituted for a more personalised term, though. Rubio. Gordo. As one of the defendant’s countrymen put it, this is a place where, if you have a big nose, your nickname is big nose. A big head, and it’s big head. If you have darker skin – not black, just darker – then you are negro. Not “a negro”. Simply negro. Sensitive? No, not at all. But deliberately offensive, designed to wound and directed to hurt? Not really.

Both arguments have their merits. If a white English player called a black English player “n******”, it would be an open and shut discussion. There would be no discussion. No ifs or buts. We all know the effect, the loading, of that word. Whichever way you see it, to suggest that this case is not more nuanced, more complex, more intricate is borne of either incomprehension or arrogance.

In such an instance, any punishment handed out – or indeed any reprieve afforded, since it seems the defendant did accept use of one of the terms under discussion –should, presumably, reflect that nuance. Perhaps a minor ban with a far heftier one, one to make clear that not learning from your inability to accept our cultural sensitivity would be utterly unacceptable, suspended above it?

Alas no. The lawyer, the manager and the administrator, looked at this fine-mesh case, this argument of intent and interpretation and this issue of cultural relativism, and brought down upon it the swingeing sword of righteousness. A draconian penalty, a message sent. This is our land. You will play by our rules. Assimilate or die. This is Albion, perfect. Perfidious.

The Football Association’s Independent Panel, of course, are not lawmakers. The FA occupies a curious role in society; it is a state within a state. A person subject to its laws can commit an offence that, by possessing both mens rea and being, in itself, an actus reus, is a crime, on English sovereign soil and yet not be judged by a criminal court. Ask Roy Keane, and Alfe-Inge Haaland’s knee. Aggravated assault? No. Fine and a ban? Yes. Those patches of greensward up and down the land are FA embassies, in effect. What happens there is under their jurisdiction. It is only when those in the stands become involved that the police may intervene. The ones on the pitch have diplomatic immunity.

It gets stranger: the FA is not just a judge and a jury, but a plaintiff in itself, too. That was shown in the appeal of Wayne Rooney’s red card against Montenegro. That, to the FA, is a three-match ban. Except when Uefa’s sliding punishment structures allow, when it might only be a two-match ban.

That conflict of interest is unavoidable, thanks to the way the administrative side of the game is constructed, but it is also undeniable. The FA’s reasoning is that the clubs do not want sliding scales of punishment, that Uefa permits it, that there are different standards and different practices. Occam’s Razor, though, applies: the simplest of several explanations is the most likely. The FA has a dual role.

In neither does it make the law. It has, despite that, in the Suarez case, set what might be termed a media precedent. The reaction to the guilty verdict, the ban and the rancour from Liverpool that followed, on the part of the newsmakers was that the FA had taken an important step to show the world that racism in any form is not acceptable in this country. Quite right. It is more than that, though: we must now accept that we believe, as a media and, by extension, as a mewling nation, that the basic rule of society dictates that an immigrant must conform to the laws of the country in which they find themselves.

That is absolutely fine. Consistency, though, is the key. The next time a British couple are arrested in Dubai for holding hands in a mall, or jailed for kissing in a public place, we can only presume not one of the same media outlets who have so heartily backed the decision of the FA’s independent panel will criticise the legal system of the UAE.

They will, of course. Hypocrisy is an English disease. It infests every part of our lives. That became clear with the cringe-inducing international campaign for the national team to wear poppies on its shirts, swiftly followed by the outrage at the very idea that Argentina might be allowed to adorn its Olympic uniforms with a badge signifying the Malvinas conflict.

It is permitted, though, because English culture is so unstintingly convinced of its own superiority. The Suarez verdict has shown that to the world. The panel have taken into consideration the idea that, elsewhere in the world, words are not quite so loaded, colour not quite such a taboo identifier, and decreed that such an approach is outdated. We pride ourselves – in many ways correctly – as standing in the vanguard in the fight against racism. But in doing so we too often find ourselves preaching that others must follow our lead. Perhaps they do not need to; perhaps in Latin America the issue of racial discrimination manifests in a different way, and therefore requires a different treatment.

Besides, our approach is not flawless. There is an allegation that Patrice Evra, Suarez’s target, labelled him a “South American”. This is a strange thing for a footballer to say. It has been suggested that Evra, a Spanish speaker and a close friend of Carlos Tevez, may have used the term sudaco, a word applied to South Americans by other Spanish speakers, and one considered deeply offensive.

Not in England, though. Liverpool’s assertion that Evra should be punished for that insult was, rightly, derided as the last desperate snatch of the damned, a vapid attempt to sully his name in a bid to lessen the negativity around Suarez.

Putting that to one side, it was never a logic that would elicit much sympathy. We may not like to mention colour in this country, but where ethnicity is taboo, nationality is not. An imperfect example: I have a Scottish friend, who is obviously quite the skinflint. I have another friend, who’s black, and therefore isn’t the strongest swimmer. Both of those comments are derogatory, prejudiced and based on the most hackneyed, malicious and inaccurate stereotypes (and, needless to say, are entirely hypothetical and do not represent my views). One will have caused you to flinch. The other will not.

Why should the colour of your skin be a source of offence but the place of your birth, the land of your parents not? Racism has long been a vile stain on our society, but so too xenophobia. Both have resulted in a myriad deaths and countless horrors. It is a question I cannot answer: perhaps we have evolved beyond the nation state. Perhaps racism is the more virulent of two poisons. Or perhaps a culture which continues to place such a taboo on the very issue of race, which is so conscious of colour that it will not permit its mention, is suffering from an ultimate hypocrisy: not being quite as advanced as it claims to be.
 
Re: The Suarez/Evra Racism Row (continued)

You're making me feel uncomfortable. Also the same thing the FA did happens in reverse in every company everywhere. When you make a grievance, the company will select clauses to "fit" your grievance, and then find the manager innocent of them. Then three red dots appear on the managers forehead as he is strolling through the car park
 
Re: The Suarez/Evra Racism Row (continued)

Ah the two-faced English media. Who can forget that classic headline from the mirror....

"Achtung! Surrender! For You Fritz, ze Euro 96 Championship is over."
 
Re: The Suarez/Evra Racism Row (continued)

It's extremely easy to give a populist viewpoint on here right now and get easy pats on the back.

I think Rosco's post is spot on.
 
Re: The Suarez/Evra Racism Row (continued)

Rory Smith's article is spot on. Thanks for posting, Hansern.
 
Re: The Suarez/Evra Racism Row (continued)

[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=48021.msg1450836#msg1450836 date=1324591794]
It's extremely easy to give a populist viewpoint on here right now and get easy pats on the back.

I think Rosco's post is spot on.
[/quote]

I don't. It's equally easy to "do a redtop", skim the surface of the whole event and refuse to bother thinking about the case for the defence.
 
Re: The Suarez/Evra Racism Row (continued)

No-one has refused to bother thinking on this forum JJ everyone gets and understands the whole negrito cultural nuances stuff thats been posted time and time again.
 
Re: The Suarez/Evra Racism Row (continued)

No mate, they don't (and this includes Tony Evans BTW). People on your side of the debate wave the point away. The response it gets is "he must have meant it racially" despite the facts - and they are facts - that (a) the conversation was in Spanish and (b) the word simply does not have such a meaning in that language.
 
Re: The Suarez/Evra Racism Row (continued)

[quote author=LadyRed link=topic=48021.msg1450986#msg1450986 date=1325068359]
Does anyone have a link to the Tony Evans Times article?
[/quote]

You mean this one? I hope you can now see it for the arrogant stream of bullshit that it is.

I don’t know much about South American culture and slang. I do know, however, a little about the mechanics of confrontation. Even at Sunday League level, I’ve had verbal spats and faced down opposition players from Everton Valley to East Los Angeles. As a fan, I’ve exchanged insults — and worse — with rival supporters from Trafford Park to the Tiber.

That’s just the football-related stuff. In real life, I’ve been in the middle of riots, squared up to police on picket lines and fought fascist bully-boys with bare knuckles.

What have I learnt? Not much, but enough to know that if I’m having a row with a black man and I make a reference to his colour, he’s going to think it’s a racist slur.

Luis Suárez, Liverpool Football Club and legions of their fans seem bewildered that the word negrito directed at a black man in the course of an argument would lead the individual concerned to assume that he had been racially abused.

Nobody would deny that the exchange between Suárez and Patrice Evra was acrimonious. Nobody would deny that the word negrito makes reference to blackness. So where are Suárez’s grounds for defence?

Well, the linguistic experts tell us that negrito is not a pejorative term. In fact, it appears that it is a friendly phrase in Hispanic culture. In one defence of the Liverpool striker, the writer talked of hearing a young, white woman with a dark complexion being referred to by the same term during a business transaction in Buenos Aires.

The problem with this is that Evra is not a young white woman, nor is he Hispanic. He is a short, black Frenchman, who, from his perspective, appears to have been called something akin to “little black boy” by someone he was having a row with. Suárez, quite clearly, was not being genial. He was winding up Evra on the pitch in the heat of a Liverpool v Manchester United game. No wonder the defender felt racially abused.

In September, a mere handful of Liverpool fans would have even heard the term negrito. Now they are experts in the semantics of Hispanic slang, describing in detail how it is a term of affection. Well, if Suárez was being affectionate to a United player during a game, the club should crack down on him. An eight-game ban? Surely that should be a sackable offence?

There are so many words in English, French and Spanish that can be used in a quarrel that referencing colour in any way seems at best ill-advised and at worst racist. Either way it’s ****** stupid.

Suárez may not have had any racist intent but the Hispanic subtleties were lost on Evra. They’d be lost on most in Britain.

So this unedifying spat continues with Liverpool supporters — almost to a man — behind Suárez.

It is embarrassing. Is it not possible for Liverpool fans to have some empathy with Evra? To see that he felt racially abused? Seemingly not in the pathetically tribal world of football, where basic decencies are thrown out the window and the “my club right or wrong” ethic prevails.

If it were all a cultural misunderstanding, why didn’t Liverpool nip it in the bud in October? It may be me, but once the word negrito cropped up I winced. I may be culturally naive, but it sounded ugly. It would sound worse to a black man.

The club should have put out a statement that read something like this: “Patrice Evra has alleged that Luis Suárez made racist remarks to him during the game at Anfield. Suárez denies this emphatically but has come to realise that it was easy for Evra to misunderstand the nuances of the Spanish phrase used and believe that he had been racially abused. Suárez would like to apologise unreservedly for any upset caused and make clear that he is against racism and discrimination in all its forms. It was a poor choice of words in the context but any student of South American culture will explain it has no racial overtones. In future, Liverpool Football Club will issue its players with a set of guidelines as to what is acceptable and not acceptable.”

Effectively, just say sorry, I didn’t mean that, I feel a bit stupid now.

Suárez is not a racist but he has been a fool. The trick is not to compound foolishness.

Instead, Liverpool put out a statement that threw the blame back at Evra, then gave us the risible sight of Suárez warming up at the DW Stadium before the Wigan Athletic match in a T-shirt supporting himself.

Pointing the finger at Evra is shameful. It can only harden the FA’s determination to make its point. And despite the more rabid conspiracy theorists, this is a battle that the FA would rather not have.

This situation — along with the John Terry/Anton Ferdinand incident — has brought the game into disrepute and exposed racial fault lines in football and society that most thought had been buried forever. One look at the abuse that Stan Collymore — a former Liverpool forward — has been receiving shows that. Sadly, it looks like decency has been buried instead.
 
Re: The Suarez/Evra Racism Row (continued)

Thanks Dantes, he's been getting lots of abuse on twitter cos of that.
 
Re: The Suarez/Evra Racism Row (continued)

That article though, like the FA, refuse to look at the fact that Evra speaks Spanish & started the conversation in Spanish using a South American slang term towards Suarez. That fact changes things dramatically in my eyes.
 
Re: The Suarez/Evra Racism Row (continued)

I don’t know much about South American culture and slang (so here the first problem, why didn't he go ask somebody who does know before writing this piece of shit that follows). I do know (what? he just fucking admitted that he don't know), however, a little about the mechanics of confrontation. Even at Sunday League level, I’ve had verbal spats and faced down opposition players from Everton Valley to East Los Angeles. As a fan, I’ve exchanged insults — and worse — with rival supporters from Trafford Park to the Tiber. (who the fuck cares? he should go tell the FA and then happily accept and agree with the 4 game ban and £20,000 fine)

That’s just the football-related stuff. In real life, I’ve been in the middle of riots, squared up to police on picket lines and fought fascist bully-boys with bare knuckles (Right, so someone who hits another person with his fist is going to pass opinion upon someone who he thinks said a bad word to someone else, fuck me).

What have I learnt? Not much (I noticed that), but enough to know that if I’m having a row with a black man and I make a reference to his colour, he’s going to think it’s a racist slur (so you should just punch him in the face with your bare knuckles instead, because that's ok you're standing up to a bully).

Luis Suárez, Liverpool Football Club and legions of their fans seem bewildered that the word negrito directed at a black man in the course of an argument would lead the individual concerned to assume that he had been racially abused. (nice lie, at best the only people who are bewildered would be anyone who considers that Evra speaks spanish well enough and that his own players have used the same words to him)

Nobody would deny that the exchange between Suárez and Patrice Evra was acrimonious. Nobody would deny that the word negrito makes reference to blackness. So where are Suárez’s grounds for defence? (wow, the first thing he has said that isn't pathetic sounding)

Well, the linguistic experts (what the fuck? try an entire continent of normal civilized people people) tell us that negrito is not a pejorative term. In fact, it appears that it is a friendly phrase in Hispanic culture. In one defence of the Liverpool striker, the writer talked of hearing a young, white woman with a dark complexion being referred to by the same term during a business transaction in Buenos Aires. (what the fuck? that is not a defence of Suarez, only someone as stupid as Tony Evans would use a defence like that)

The problem with this is that Evra is not a young white woman, nor is he Hispanic. He is a short, black Frenchman, who, from his perspective, appears to have been called something akin to “little black boy” by someone he was having a row with. Suárez, quite clearly, was not being genial. He was winding up Evra on the pitch in the heat of a Liverpool v Manchester United game. No wonder the defender felt racially abused. (no shit, doesn't he understand that nobody disagrees with this? all he has to do is give Gus Poyet a call, but instead he refers to some random fucker talking about a business transaction in Buenos Aires? fuck me)

In September, a mere handful of Liverpool fans would have even heard the term negrito. Now they are experts in the semantics of Hispanic slang, describing in detail how it is a term of affection. (what the fuck? it takes 1 minute, 1 fucking minute to listen to or read an explanation about the term negrito. Tony Evans would have you believe like its fucking on a par with quantum mechanics or something) Well, if Suárez was being affectionate to a United player during a game, the club should crack down on him. An eight-game ban? Surely that should be a sackable offence? (I have no fucking idea what he is talking about here. is this what he thinks Liverpool supporters are saying to be sarcastic? If this is how he explains things with English, I see why he though the definition of a word can seem like quantum mechanics)

There are so many words in English, French and Spanish that can be used in a quarrel that referencing colour in any way seems at best ill-advised and at worst racist. Either way it’s ****** stupid. (The Times? It's not ill-advised, it's more like the complete absence of any advice)

Suárez may not have had any racist intent but the Hispanic subtleties were lost on Evra. They’d be lost on most in Britain. (So how about you learn them, and you also teach Suarez about your culture. Saying, NOOO you're wrong, ban him, ill-advised or racist, is just sad. And it's the complete wrong way to go about eliminating racism. Trying to ignore other poeple's culture, or impose your own culture upon them by force is the very root of racism.)

So this unedifying spat continues with Liverpool supporters — almost to a man — behind Suárez. (And proud to be so)

It is embarrassing. Is it not possible for Liverpool fans to have some empathy with Evra? To see that he felt racially abused? Seemingly not in the pathetically tribal world of football, where basic decencies are thrown out the window and the “my club right or wrong” ethic prevails. (The only reason I'm not rolling my eyes into the back of my head is because that gives me a headache)

If it were all a cultural misunderstanding, why didn’t Liverpool nip it in the bud in October?(Why the fuck does he think? Is he fucking serious? Fuck me) It may be me, but once the word negrito cropped up I winced. I may be culturally naive, but it sounded ugly. It would sound worse to a black man. (Why would it? This is like thinking that because racism is offensive to black people, that's the reason not to be racist. Again completely the wrong way to go about eliminating racism. In case he didn't know, racists don't give a fuck about black people. He doesn't get that racism isn't defined by causing offense, it is defined by the diseased thinking that takes place in someones mind and that's what needs to be cured. and that isn't what was in the mind of Suarez so to make an example of him is disgusting)

The club should have put out a statement that read something like this: “Patrice Evra has alleged that Luis Suárez made racist remarks to him during the game at Anfield. Suárez denies this emphatically but has come to realise that it was easy for Evra to misunderstand the nuances of the Spanish phrase used and believe that he had been racially abused. Suárez would like to apologise unreservedly for any upset caused and make clear that he is against racism and discrimination in all its forms. It was a poor choice of words in the context but any student of South American culture will explain it has no racial overtones. In future, Liverpool Football Club will issue its players with a set of guidelines as to what is acceptable and not acceptable.” (Fuck off. This statement would be what we felt before the verdict, and how it should have been dealt with between Suarez and Evra in person. But not after the club gets pissed upon by the FA's witch hunt, seriously fuck off if he expects them to bend over and accept it up the arse. Tony Evans might be a weak pathetic human being like that, but this club is not)

Effectively, just say sorry, I didn’t mean that, I feel a bit stupid now. (Weak, pathetic, human being)

Suárez is not a racist but he has been a fool. The trick is not to compound foolishness. (ditto)

Instead, Liverpool put out a statement that threw the blame back at Evra, then gave us the risible sight of Suárez warming up at the DW Stadium before the Wigan Athletic match in a T-shirt supporting himself. (Oh poor Evra, poor little baby Evra. How about he fucking reads the statement, the blame was not thrown back at Evra. Cunt. An accusation was thrown at him for someone else he said. Who the fuck does he think he is trying to make it sound as if the club are blaming Evra for being black or some shit. Fuck off)

Pointing the finger at Evra is shameful. It can only harden the FA’s determination to make its point. And despite the more rabid conspiracy theorists, this is a battle that the FA would rather not have. (Oh poor FA, poor little baby FA)

This situation — along with the John Terry/Anton Ferdinand incident — has brought the game into disrepute and exposed racial fault lines in football and society that most thought had been buried forever. One look at the abuse that Stan Collymore — a former Liverpool forward — has been receiving shows that. Sadly, it looks like decency has been buried instead. (Oh shut the fuck up, this man has no idea what racism is nor how to deal with it)
 
Re: The Suarez/Evra Racism Row (continued)

[quote author=LadyRed link=topic=48021.msg1451022#msg1451022 date=1325072563]
Thanks Dantes, he's been getting lots of abuse on twitter cos of that.
[/quote]

quite right
 
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