The Suarez/Evra Racism Row

[Rosco]

Re: The Suarez/Evra Racism Row (continued)

Right the much cleverer than me merry band are out in force, so I won't bother to reply to you all individually.

Here's the the important evidence:
Evra accuses Suarez of calling him a negro, Suarez admits to saying it.

The FA Panel has to decide whether to find Luis guilty or not, knowing that the media spotlight is on them. Knowing full well their decision is setting a high profile precedent that will be followed in future.

You expect them to deem it okay for Suarez to call Evra a negro, on the basis that either:

a) it's not offensive where he comes from
b) it was said in Spanish, not English
c) it was said in a friendly manner

If the FA Panel follows that line of argument, think of the precedent that sets:

If you're playing football in England you can call a black man a negro so long as you either:

a) Say Negro in Spanish, not English
b) claim where you grew up it's not offensive
c) claim to have said it in a friendly manner.

Now given the FA are committed to trying to eradicate racism and not encourage it, which decision is more likely to achieve that? Do you send out a message that you won't tolerate people being called negro, or say you can call people negro so long as you use one of our convenient list of excuses to get yourself off ?

They were never going to say: "you can use Negro in certain circumstances" - It's much easier and much more preferable to not allow it all. Do you really want genuinely racist cunts having an easy way out like that ?

And lastly some of the people posting in defence of using negro because it's in Spanish should go back and read some old threads, particularly re Fabregas , Aragones or even fucking Paddy and see how much your own opinion now a Liverpool player is involved is at variance with what you said back then.

Actually fuck it, I'll post some of them:

LTW on Cesc's comment (where he used negro) to Kanoute (in Spanish and in Spain):

I think IF Cesc said those things, it's disgraceful AND wrong

Doc Mac on a thread regarding themn taking issue with Ryan calling Thierry Henry fat lipped:

If Themn took offence then it is reason enough. A focus on racial characteristics in an otherwise humourous rant is unacceptable. I take Mamma Mia's posts with the respect they deserve as someone who has been on the rough end of discriminatory behaviour, but it was still inappropriate. I like Ryan a lot, and think he is one of the best posters in this site, but he needs to wise the bap with comments which are likely to cause offence. His comments are accretive in their ability to cause offence. If somebody without form for racial slurs on black people had posted this I'm sure Themn would have been less sensitive. In this case I completely understand.

Vantage's comments on the same thread:

MM, I'm not the most politically correct person on here, yet even I would agree that comments like that can be taken as having racist feelings.

Did Ryan mean it? I doubt it. Is Themn right in taking offence? Of course. If he wants to, which he clearly does.

Spionkop in the same thread:

Does that mean its not racist or that its water off a duck's back to you?

Using "fat lipped" towards somebody black is generally considered a racial slur in this country.

I'm not posting any further on the topic.

 

[Fabio]

Re: The Suarez/Evra Racism Row (continued)

So...you.... Are a racist!

 

[RedStar]

Re: The Suarez/Evra Racism Row (continued)

[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=48021.msg1450711#msg1450711 date=1324577024]
I agree that by rights there ought to be a complaint, but who's going to make one? We'd find it difficult because Luis has already said he didn't hear it, and nobody else is going to want to bother because they're going to have to deal with Ferguson if they do.
[/quote]

I think we will have to see what comes out when the full transcripts etc are released, my guess is that if Kenny wants to pursue this he will wait until our legal team can read through exactly what has been said by Evra, because not having made a complaint himself we are reliant upon him having hung himself

I really expect the club to tone downs its vocal opposition to this in the next 24 hours or so, there is nothing else to say til the FA releases its documents

 

[LeTallecWiz]

Re: The Suarez/Evra Racism Row (continued)

Cheap stunt Ross -

The comparison is rather unfair for the reason (as per themn's thread): ""Terrorist" and a "puto negro de mierda"" Now, enough posters have already mentioned that negro/negra when USED with puta (& other terms) becomes offensive (from cunt/mate to black cunt - like John Terry). When did Suarez use the term like that? You probably saw the difference, and yet you ignored it (like you've done many points on both thread) or hoped I wouldn't bother to check the thread.

I had NO idea whatsoever of the usage of Negro/Negra/Negrito in Spain/Portugal/Spanish speaking countries before this came up. So when I saw the term with Fabregas, I judged as a 'Western raised' kid would. You said the 'n' word, hence it's disgraceful and wrong (& racist). I judged him the way you're judging Luis, who you're now implying is a racist (quoting you, the FA needs to decide if it should 'eradicate racism, or encourage it' in relation to this case). I was more eager to understand as Luis is our player, and Cesc wasn't (nor do I really give a shit about Barca or Sevilla). Ignorance on my part or whatever.

Though you won't respond, your silence after my example re: drinking in public in one of the Emirates case showed your double standards (as will happen with EBJT). It's this imperialistic view of racism, where it can only be defined by your boundaries. When it happened to an Englishman in the Emirates, England went ape shit. I've said it a hundred times, and I'll say it again, Suarez should be banned. Repeat, SHOULD be banned. He's not in his country, or the countries, where that is ok. He insulted a player (No one knows exactly what happened but it is irrelevant) in a way which is considered racist in England. He's not a racist, as you're implying, nor does he deserve this hate campaign being launched throughout England by holier than though folk.

Lastly, you don't have to respond. You've ignored many points (like the one mentioned above) like most aspiring (and already great) lawyers do. It's ok. You don't always have to be right - you're human.

 

[spider-Neil]

Re: The Suarez/Evra Racism Row (continued)

ross' memory of what people have posted, days, months or even YEARS ago must be encyclopedic

 

[Rosco]

Re: The Suarez/Evra Racism Row (continued)

I'll make one remark because you're not the first to say it.

I don't think Suarez is racist, on any level.

 

[FoxForceFive]

Re: The Suarez/Evra Racism Row (continued)

Cant Suarez complain about Evra calling him sudaca once he reads him admit to it in the report?

If I read someone saying they'd insulted me I'd act upon it.

 

[LeTallecWiz]

Re: The Suarez/Evra Racism Row (continued)

[quote author=Rosco link=topic=48021.msg1450725#msg1450725 date=1324579616]
I'll make one remark because you're not the first to say it.

I don't think Suarez is racist, on any level.
[/quote]

Ok - I apologize for saying you implied it (it just came off that way as I said).

Any other comments?

 

[ctlovesred]

Re: The Suarez/Evra Racism Row (continued)

I have a hard time with anyone who thinks that saying or doing something once, in any sort of context, makes that person any sort of -ist.

By that measure, I'm an ageist (both old and young), friendist, wife-ist, food-ist, politician-ist, racist, sexist, fat-ist, skinny-ist, bigotist.

Being half Texan and spending a fair amount of time in the south, real racism works both ways and can be deadly. This non-event is 100% about the FA's self-perception and political correctness. Sorry.

Ross- don't they have intent as a crucial element in determining criminality over there? Seems like you don't believe so in this case.

 

[Ryan]

Re: The Suarez/Evra Racism Row (continued)

I'd like to hear themn's thoughts on the whole matter.

 

[Fabio]

Re: Re: The Suarez/Evra Racism Row (continued)

[quote author=Ryan link=topic=48021.msg1#msg1 date=1324580620]
I'd like to hear themn's thoughts on the whole matter.
[/quote]

*pandoras can of worms explodes*

 

[doctor_mac]

Re: The Suarez/Evra Racism Row (continued)

[quote author=Rosco link=topic=48021.msg1450716#msg1450716 date=1324578049]
Right the much cleverer than me merry band are out in force, so I won't bother to reply to you all individually.

Here's the the important evidence:
Evra accuses Suarez of calling him a negro, Suarez admits to saying it.

The FA Panel has to decide whether to find Luis guilty or not, knowing that the media spotlight is on them. Knowing full well their decision is setting a high profile precedent that will be followed in future.

You expect them to deem it okay for Suarez to call Evra a negro, on the basis that either:

a) it's not offensive where he comes from
b) it was said in Spanish, not English
c) it was said in a friendly manner

If the FA Panel follows that line of argument, think of the precedent that sets:

If you're playing football in England you can call a black man a negro so long as you either:

a) Say Negro in Spanish, not English
b) claim where you grew up it's not offensive
c) claim to have said it in a friendly manner.

Now given the FA are committed to trying to eradicate racism and not encourage it, which decision is more likely to achieve that? Do you send out a message that you won't tolerate people being called negro, or say you can call people negro so long as you use one of our convenient list of excuses to get yourself off ?

They were never going to say: "you can use Negro in certain circumstances" - It's much easier and much more preferable to not allow it all. Do you really want genuinely racist cunts having an easy way out like that ?

And lastly some of the people posting in defence of using negro because it's in Spanish should go back and read some old threads, particularly re Fabregas , Aragones or even fucking Paddy and see how much your own opinion now a Liverpool player is involved is at variance with what you said back then.

Actually fuck it, I'll post some of them:

LTW on Cesc's comment (where he used negro) to Kanoute (in Spanish and in Spain):

I think IF Cesc said those things, it's disgraceful AND wrong

Doc Mac on a thread regarding themn taking issue with Ryan calling Thierry Henry fat lipped:

If Themn took offence then it is reason enough. A focus on racial characteristics in an otherwise humourous rant is unacceptable. I take Mamma Mia's posts with the respect they deserve as someone who has been on the rough end of discriminatory behaviour, but it was still inappropriate. I like Ryan a lot, and think he is one of the best posters in this site, but he needs to wise the bap with comments which are likely to cause offence. His comments are accretive in their ability to cause offence. If somebody without form for racial slurs on black people had posted this I'm sure Themn would have been less sensitive. In this case I completely understand.

Vantage's comments on the same thread:

MM, I'm not the most politically correct person on here, yet even I would agree that comments like that can be taken as having racist feelings.

Did Ryan mean it? I doubt it. Is Themn right in taking offence? Of course. If he wants to, which he clearly does.

Spionkop in the same thread:

Does that mean its not racist or that its water off a duck's back to you?

Using "fat lipped" towards somebody black is generally considered a racial slur in this country.

I'm not posting any further on the topic.
[/quote]


This is pretty lame Rosco, which is a shame, because you've clearly put a lot of work into it. In terms of my contribution we had a case of someone using racial characteristics as part of him slagging Thierry Henry off. Not someone using the (as is now well established, non pejorative Latin American use of the term 'negro'). It wasn't neutral, and couldn't possibly be construed as neutral. And as I said in the thread, it probably would not have been taken so badly if it wasn't posted by someone with 'history'- ie. Mr "gorillas in the mist" O'Hare. If Suarez had some history of saying racially inappropriate things I would definitely not have sympathy for him. Part of the reason we might give him the benefit of the doubt is that it seems to stand in contrast to his family background, and that there is no evidence of him previously acting like a racist. Acting like a cunt, some might say yes, racist, no.

It was *completely* different. Like LTW, I have also said that I can understand why he's being punished, but that the case is complex enough for every FA comment on the matter to stress that they don't think Suarez is racist- in other words the offence was somehow technical. My continuing problem is that he has been punished as if he *was* a racist, which no-one seems to think he is, or is prepared to say he is at any rate. This is where I'm coming from, and actually, I honestly think you're not that far from the same position if you weren't hellbent on being intransigent.

 

[peterhague]

Re: The Suarez/Evra Racism Row (continued)

[quote author=RedStar link=topic=48021.msg1450702#msg1450702 date=1324575395]
Hasnt Evra admitted it in his statement to the FA, surely Suarez would not be required to hear it first hand in order for it to be deemed an offence or are the FA of the opinion that something is only racist if there is a black person around to hear it?

The issue with the Tshirts is not that the club is showing solidarity with Suarez, they have backed him unequivically from the start so that is not an issue, the issue is that they seem to be trying to portray Luis as the victim despite the fact hes been found guilty of using racial insults against another professional, that will not wash with most people and it makes the club look laughably out of step with society, as if being banned from a couple of games of football is a sentence worthy of martyrdom

Im amazed FSG are allowing this to happen, for a club trying to expand its global base this is PR suicide
[/quote]

I couldn't give a fucking flying fuck what the fuck we look like to our global customerbase or corporate cunting partners. They can all go fuck themselves.

PR suicide, indeed! FUCK OFF.

 

[Portly]

Re: The Suarez/Evra Racism Row (continued)

I think our debate would be much more focused if we were in possession of the FA Committee's statement about the evidence and how it reached its conclusions.

I guess there's no point in suggesting we suspend this thread for a month? 8)

 

[robinhood]

Re: The Suarez/Evra Racism Row (continued)

"Negro" in Spanish is "black". "Black" is ok to say in English, but the Spanish word for it, said in English is not acceptable. "Negro" is acceptable in Spanish speaking countries, as "black" apparently is in English.

 

[FoxForceFive]

Re: The Suarez/Evra Racism Row (continued)

So, basically Evra has brought something unwarranted into the equation by calling him 'South American'. Suarez has responded by calling him 'Black'.

If Suarez would have called him 'Frenchman' I wonder what would have become of it.

Nevertheless, the exact nature of what Evra said & how he said it is essential to deciding Suarez' intentions, if it does indeed have slight negative meaning, then his reply isn't an insult as much as it is a riposte aimed at highlighting the unnecessary nature of adding race or culture into their argument.

 

[Ryan]

Re: The Suarez/Evra Racism Row (continued)

[quote author=Fascistio link=topic=48021.msg1450735#msg1450735 date=1324580743]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=48021.msg1#msg1 date=1324580620]
I'd like to hear themn's thoughts on the whole matter.
[/quote]

*pandoras can of worms explodes*
[/quote]

Not really. I'm just intrigued as to why he hasn't shared his opinion on all of this. I'd like to hear it.

 

[Atlas]

Re: The Suarez/Evra Racism Row (continued)

Listening to talk sport earlier (accidentally, as they had last nights games on while 5 live sat around in a studio) anyway some guy called Adrian was flipping out about the tshirts but came across as a massive dick, I suppose that was his job to rile people and he certainly did that with me'(for the record I think the tshirts were silly) but I was just angered by his pathetic approach to it.

Add to that Glen McGrath calling in and singling out glojo like glojo should have told kenny to piss off cos his issue is bigger than teammates and football. He make a point of saying he didn't think Suarez was racist also. Him singling out glojo like him being a black guy should have meant so much more etc was dumb.. Glojo tweeted 'i will support who I wana and was like fuck off basically'.

Problem of it all though is the hypocrisy of this guy saying it's more than just football, this the same guy who said backed fat Ron when he used abusive language. Fat Ron called black players coons at training but that was ok cos it was about getting paid wasn't it paul.

 

[Atlas]

Re: The Suarez/Evra Racism Row (continued)

[quote author=Ryan link=topic=48021.msg1450742#msg1450742 date=1324582138]
[quote author=Fascistio link=topic=48021.msg1450735#msg1450735 date=1324580743]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=48021.msg1#msg1 date=1324580620]
I'd like to hear themn's thoughts on the whole matter.
[/quote]

*pandoras can of worms explodes*
[/quote]

Not really. I'm just intrigued as to why he hasn't shared his opinion on all of this. I'd like to hear it.
[/quote]

I think he commented early in the original thread, if you wana have a look

 

[SaintGeorge67]

Re: The Suarez/Evra Racism Row (continued)

I heard Pardew having a go before. Didn't someone say he was (allegedly) really bad, even with his own players?

 

[LeTallecWiz]

Re: The Suarez/Evra Racism Row (continued)

[quote author=Atlas link=topic=48021.msg1450748#msg1450748 date=1324582658]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=48021.msg1450742#msg1450742 date=1324582138]
[quote author=Fascistio link=topic=48021.msg1450735#msg1450735 date=1324580743]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=48021.msg1#msg1 date=1324580620]
I'd like to hear themn's thoughts on the whole matter.
[/quote]

*pandoras can of worms explodes*
[/quote]

Not really. I'm just intrigued as to why he hasn't shared his opinion on all of this. I'd like to hear it.
[/quote]

I think he commented early in the original thread, if you wana have a look
[/quote]

What page?

 

[LeTallecWiz]

Re: The Suarez/Evra Racism Row (continued)

All the people, famous and not, having a go at Luis is why I'm so pissed off about this ban. If it was 3 games, it would have not been blown up like this. But b/c a player who the FA says 'is not racist' and Evra says 'is not racist' got a record ban for this kind of event, everyone is slamming him as a racist. The punishment sends one message, while their words send another.

 

[Ryan]

Re: The Suarez/Evra Racism Row (continued)

[quote author=Atlas link=topic=48021.msg1450748#msg1450748 date=1324582658]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=48021.msg1450742#msg1450742 date=1324582138]
[quote author=Fascistio link=topic=48021.msg1450735#msg1450735 date=1324580743]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=48021.msg1#msg1 date=1324580620]
I'd like to hear themn's thoughts on the whole matter.
[/quote]*pandoras can of worms explodes*
[/quote]Not really. I'm just intrigued as to why he hasn't shared his opinion on all of this. I'd like to hear it.
[/quote]I think he commented early in the original thread, if you wana have a look[/quote]

Thanks Atlas. I'll have a look. Just hadn't noticed any comments since the verdict was given.

 

[Jürgen4PM]

Re: The Suarez/Evra Racism Row (continued)

glen_johnsonGlen Johnson

"I will support who i want when i want!!! There are a lot of reasons why I'm standing by Luis Suarez!!!"

 

[Judge Jules]

Re: The Suarez/Evra Racism Row (continued)

[quote author=ctlovesred link=topic=48021.msg1450730#msg1450730 date=1324580393]
I have a hard time with anyone who thinks that saying or doing something once, in any sort of context, makes that person any sort of -ist.

By that measure, I'm an ageist (both old and young), friendist, wife-ist, food-ist, politician-ist, racist, sexist, fat-ist, skinny-ist, bigotist.

Being half Texan and spending a fair amount of time in the south, real racism works both ways and can be deadly. This non-event is 100% about the FA's self-perception and political correctness. Sorry.

Ross- don't they have intent as a crucial element in determining criminality over there? Seems like you don't believe so in this case.
[/quote]

Ct - yes, of course intent ("mens rea" in legal Latin - do you folks have that term too?) is crucial in establishing guilt in criminal proceedings in the UK. The difficulty in this case is that the matter hasn't been decided in a court of law but by an FA tribunal under FA rules, which make the use of racist language an offence of "strict liability", i.e.intent is not taken into account. Given your bolded words above, with which I fully agree, you may think that's appalling. I certainly do and I'm hopeful that, once the appeal process is exhausted and we can get this into court for judicial review of the FA's decision, we can attack the rules themselves as defective given that they've now produced a result in which a man who, as the appeal panel itself has publicly declared, "is not a racist" is nevertheless being punished as if he were.

 

[spider-Neil]

Re: The Suarez/Evra Racism Row (continued)

[quote author=Kenny4PM link=topic=48021.msg1450754#msg1450754 date=1324583353]
glen_johnsonGlen Johnson

"I will support who i want when i want!!! There are a lot of reasons why I'm standing by Luis Suarez!!!"
[/quote]


fucking A, glen!

 

[6TimesaRed]

Re: Re: The Suarez/Evra Racism Row (continued)

[quote author=Kenny4PM link=topic=48021.msg1#msg1 date=1324583353]
glen_johnsonGlen Johnson

"I will support who i want when i want!!! There are a lot of reasons why I'm standing by Luis Suarez!!!"
[/quote]

They been going mental on talksport for the past hour or so with that comment and the Suarez debate in general..

Bunch of Biggots they are on talksport drivetime..

 

[Jürgen4PM]

Re: The Suarez/Evra Racism Row (continued)

Adrian Durham was even suggesting that maybe Kenny didn't get it because he's old.

 

[Atlas]

Re: The Suarez/Evra Racism Row (continued)

Poor glenjo been brainwashed into Sticking up for a racist.

 

[vantage]

Re: The Suarez/Evra Racism Row (continued)

@ Rosco, he didn't admit to calling him "a negro" he said, "porque, Negro?". I have pointed this out several times but you still keep repeating the same point.

As has been discussed to death, this is not deemed to be racist in the Spanish speaking world.

And with reference to "sudaca/sudaco", Google translate gives it as "Greaser".......