The Suarez/Evra Racism Row

[Whaddapie]

Question: I live in America and as such I'm around people of various ethnicities every day, like many of you... The word "chief" is used like the word "mate" over here… If I say "hello chief" to a person that I am unaware is of Native American descent, and he is offended by that, am I a racist?

It is a word that if used with a certain intent can absolutely be racist, however it is also a word that can be used in many other capacities, some friendly, some not so, but none necessarily racist… Your answer to this hypothetical question probably determines your outlook on the Luis matter…

 

[Vlads Quiff]

The fact that the FA could not come up with a result by the original deadline-day and have gone into next week leads me to think they are having the same sort of discussions and doubts.
It can't be cut and dry or they would have banned him by now, or dismissed the case.
I think the longer the debate the muddier the water and the harder to find guilty, still that might me thinking it's half full

regards

 

[Sunny]

I think he was probably winding up Evra,which players do all the time, but I highly doubt it was done with any racist intent. Rumours going round suggest that he'll escape the racist charges but receive a ban for unsportsmanlike conduct which will be utter bullshit imo. If that's the case then Evra should receive similar for his alleged comment to the referee about only being booked because he was black. How true that is I dunno.

 

[Judge Jules]

[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=47188.msg1445345#msg1445345 date=1324148785]
The fact that the FA could not come up with a result by the original deadline-day and have gone into next week leads me to think they are having the same sort of discussions and doubts.
It can't be cut and dry or they would have banned him by now, or dismissed the case.
I think the longer the debate the muddier the water and the harder to find guilty, still that might me thinking it's half full

regards
[/quote]

It might, old pal, but I doubt it. That's a reasonable conclusion to draw IMO. The other possibility is that they badly want a unanimous verdict and one of them is holding out against the other two, but that's unusual in such cases.

 

[juniormember]

[quote author=Whaddapie link=topic=47188.msg1445335#msg1445335 date=1324148388]
Question: I live in America and as such I'm around people of various ethnicities every day, like many of you... The word "chief" is used like the word "mate" over here… If I say "hello chief" to a person that I am unaware is of Native American descent, and he is offended by that, am I a racist?

It is a word that if used with a certain intent can absolutely be racist, however it is also a word that can be used in many other capacities, some friendly, some not so, but none necessarily racist… Your answer to this hypothetical question probably determines your outlook on the Luis matter…
[/quote]

Chief is used amongst all ethnicity.
A bit strange if two white guys were calling each other Negritos.

 

[Whaddapie]

[quote author=juniormember link=topic=47188.msg1445429#msg1445429 date=1324156013]
[quote author=Whaddapie link=topic=47188.msg1445335#msg1445335 date=1324148388]
Question: I live in America and as such I'm around people of various ethnicities every day, like many of you... The word "chief" is used like the word "mate" over here… If I say "hello chief" to a person that I am unaware is of Native American descent, and he is offended by that, am I a racist?

It is a word that if used with a certain intent can absolutely be racist, however it is also a word that can be used in many other capacities, some friendly, some not so, but none necessarily racist… Your answer to this hypothetical question probably determines your outlook on the Luis matter…
[/quote]

Chief is used amongst all ethnicity.
A bit strange if two white guys were calling each other Negritos.
[/quote]

Perhaps, but you haven't the question...

If you unintentionally use a term that causes offense, are you a racist?

 

[Halmeister]

[quote author=juniormember link=topic=47188.msg1445429#msg1445429 date=1324156013]
[quote author=Whaddapie link=topic=47188.msg1445335#msg1445335 date=1324148388]
Question: I live in America and as such I'm around people of various ethnicities every day, like many of you... The word "chief" is used like the word "mate" over here… If I say "hello chief" to a person that I am unaware is of Native American descent, and he is offended by that, am I a racist?

It is a word that if used with a certain intent can absolutely be racist, however it is also a word that can be used in many other capacities, some friendly, some not so, but none necessarily racist… Your answer to this hypothetical question probably determines your outlook on the Luis matter…
[/quote]

Chief is used amongst all ethnicity.
A bit strange if two white guys were calling each other Negritos.
[/quote]

They do, though.

 

[monsieurdantes]

[quote author=Whaddapie link=topic=47188.msg1445433#msg1445433 date=1324156883]
[quote author=juniormember link=topic=47188.msg1445429#msg1445429 date=1324156013]
[quote author=Whaddapie link=topic=47188.msg1445335#msg1445335 date=1324148388]
Question: I live in America and as such I'm around people of various ethnicities every day, like many of you... The word "chief" is used like the word "mate" over here… If I say "hello chief" to a person that I am unaware is of Native American descent, and he is offended by that, am I a racist?

It is a word that if used with a certain intent can absolutely be racist, however it is also a word that can be used in many other capacities, some friendly, some not so, but none necessarily racist… Your answer to this hypothetical question probably determines your outlook on the Luis matter…
[/quote]

Chief is used amongst all ethnicity.
A bit strange if two white guys were calling each other Negritos.
[/quote]

Perhaps, but you haven't the question...

If you unintentionally use a term that causes offense, are you a racist?
[/quote]


Suarez was clearly using the term to cause offense. But not racial offense, which is confusing a lot of people in this thread. The problem is the word is a reference to race, not a offensive reference, but a reference nonetheless. So on the one hand he was offending Evra, and on the other hand it included a reference to his race. It's probably easier to think of gay.

Say for example you show me your stamp collection. My response to that would be, "The fuck? You're gay dude"...... So 1. I have offended you. 2. I have used a word that makes reference to homosexuality. But there is no way that you can accuse me of being homophobic from that. However this is exactly the logic by which Suarez is being accused of racism.

 

[monsieurdantes]

And, if you were in fact gay, then you'd feel a lot like Evra does. Also I would feel embarrassed and apologize to you. But I'd not be homophobic. Although if you want to use technical etymological reasons to say I am.... then the price of that is going to be it completely waters down the meaning of the term homophobe and the weight that word should carry when you ascribe it to people.

 

[vantage]

[quote author=monsieurdantes link=topic=47188.msg1445450#msg1445450 date=1324159639]
[quote author=Whaddapie link=topic=47188.msg1445433#msg1445433 date=1324156883]
[quote author=juniormember link=topic=47188.msg1445429#msg1445429 date=1324156013]
[quote author=Whaddapie link=topic=47188.msg1445335#msg1445335 date=1324148388]
Question: I live in America and as such I'm around people of various ethnicities every day, like many of you... The word "chief" is used like the word "mate" over here… If I say "hello chief" to a person that I am unaware is of Native American descent, and he is offended by that, am I a racist?

It is a word that if used with a certain intent can absolutely be racist, however it is also a word that can be used in many other capacities, some friendly, some not so, but none necessarily racist… Your answer to this hypothetical question probably determines your outlook on the Luis matter…
[/quote]

Chief is used amongst all ethnicity.
A bit strange if two white guys were calling each other Negritos.
[/quote]

Perhaps, but you haven't the question...

If you unintentionally use a term that causes offense, are you a racist?
[/quote]


Suarez was clearly using the term to cause offense. But not racial offense, which is confusing a lot of people in this thread. The problem is the word is a reference to race, not a offensive reference, but a reference nonetheless. So on the one hand he was offending Evra, and on the other hand it included a reference to his race. It's probably easier to think of gay.

Say for example you show me your stamp collection. My response to that would be, "The fuck? You're gay dude"...... So 1. I have offended you. 2. I have used a word that makes reference to homosexuality. But there is no way that you can accuse me of being homophobic from that. However this is exactly the logic by which Suarez is being accused of racism.
[/quote]

This is exactly why the FA worded the charge the way they did. I have kept out of this thread but I do largely agree with the Doc.

Living in a Latin country exposes you to different ways of looking at things. The use of black or white doesn't really carry the racial overtones that they do in the UK. Is it wrong? I have no idea. Clearly everyone knows that there are certain words that are and always should be out of bounds.

But my (Spanish) wifes best friend in the UK was Jamaican. She wasn't of the trash talking younger generation but when referring to skin tone, she would use 'black' or horror of horror, 'coloured'. As did her family. I just don't know what is safe to say or not any more so I tend to keep out of these matters.

 

[EmreChan]

Doc Mac has owned this thread. *Applauds*

 

[RedZeppelin]

[quote author=Chan link=topic=47188.msg1445480#msg1445480 date=1324172874]
Doc Mac has owned this thread. *Applauds*
[/quote]

"owned" ? ha , give me a break .

 

[Cerberus]

[quote author=RedZeppelin link=topic=47188.msg1445487#msg1445487 date=1324175116]
[quote author=Chan link=topic=47188.msg1445480#msg1445480 date=1324172874]
Doc Mac has owned this thread. *Applauds*
[/quote]

"owned" ? ha , give me a break .
[/quote]

Are you Dj Syd?

 

[StevieM]

There's a very famous book in Australia called "Shelia's, Wogs and Poofters".

You might be mistaken for thinking it's some sort of extreme right wing manifesto with racist intentions.

It's not, but I'd imagine the title wouldn't go down particularly well outside of Australia.

It's Johnny Warren's autobiography on the development of "soccer" in Australia. The word "Wog" is used to describe Australians that come from southern European descent and isn't considered a racial slur. A girl phoned me the other day enquiring about booking Function room for her birthday and said she'd probably order lots of food because her family were quite "woggie". I don't entirely feel confortably using the term, because it means something entirely different in the UK, but I have used it in normal conversation from time to time without anyone being offended. It feels like I'm being racist... but I'm not.

I could very easily imagine an Australian caling someone a "wog" in the UK in either a friendly or unfriendly way with no racial intent. Even if they were told that the word had racial intent I suppose it's entirely possible to use the word to wind someone up without racial intent.

I suppose this is where it all gets difficult - someone has to prove that Suarez used whatever word he used with racial intent...

... but the damage has probably been done regardless about whether he is guilty or not... he'll be even more of a marked man now.

 

[RedZeppelin]

[quote author=Cerberus link=topic=47188.msg1445514#msg1445514 date=1324182960]
[quote author=RedZeppelin link=topic=47188.msg1445487#msg1445487 date=1324175116]
[quote author=Chan link=topic=47188.msg1445480#msg1445480 date=1324172874]
Doc Mac has owned this thread. *Applauds*
[/quote]

"owned" ? ha , give me a break .
[/quote]

Are you Dj Syd?
[/quote]

Wasn't DJ Syd a wanker ? So i guess it's open to debate then

 

[Squiggles]

Dantes sums it up perfectly, IMO.

 

[Vlads Quiff]

So , it's what we probably thought all along....................... football sledging.

Wiki..........
Sledging came into the media spotlight during the 2007–08 Indian tour of Australia when Harbhajan Singh was accused of alleged racial abuse towards Andrew Symonds.[9] The allegation was not proved and a proposed three-match ban on Harbhajan was lifted.[10] He was instead charged with a Level 2.8 offence (abuse and insult not amounting to racism) to which he pleaded guilty and was fined 50 per cent of his match fees, although the Appeals Commissioner later noted that had he been aware of Harbajan's prior record, a one-Test ban would have been issued.

regards

 

[iseered]

Racism.

 

[dmishra]

I agree with Halmeister, JJ and dantes.

 

[Ossi]

No decision yet? Didn't they first say Saturday, then Sunday?

 

[Holle]

I think it's Tuesday?

 

[Athens]

I think Tuesday is the deadline.

 

[vantage]

I took this photo yesterday in San Javier in South East Spain. Look about 3/4 down the window.......

I appologise for the quality of the photo but my phone had 2% battery and there was traffic behind me.

I have never used this bar but it used to be frequented by Ecuadorians......

What is clear is "negrito" is not a racist term in Spanish.

 

[Fabio]

This thread is more annoying than the gareth barry one

 

[Mystic]

[quote author=Fabio link=topic=47188.msg1446647#msg1446647 date=1324289328]
This thread is more annoying than the gareth barry one
[/quote]

This, it's painful.

 

[Portly]

[quote author=Fabio link=topic=47188.msg1446647#msg1446647 date=1324289328]
This thread is more annoying than the gareth barry one
[/quote]

I agree. Many of us seem to be getting themselves tied into knots about racism. Personally I'm not that bothered whether Suarez was guilty of racism or not . . . I just want him to get off, or if he doesn't get off, I want him to avoid a lengthy suspension. Actually a couple of matches rest wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing as we have worked him very hard this season. 🙂

 

[25_05_05]

If Suarez gets a ban - fair enough. Just as long as Evra gets the same.

 

[Jack D Rips]

Personally, I AM bothered whether Suarez is a racist or not. I have fully convinced myself that he isnt but if it was proven that he is, then I dont care how long a suspension he gets. He will deserve it, and his reputation will be fucked.

That is why I feel that if he is innocent then Evra, and possibly even Ferguson, should be charged. Which is the most serious offence? Being racist, or falsely accusing someone of being racist?

My point all through this thread is that the evidence just doesnt stack up. I just cant believe that someone who felt that he was racially abused 10 times during the match, would not have brought it to the referees attention during the game and would in fact wait until 20 minutes after the game ended to report it.

 

[Portly]

We don't need to exercise ourselves about the inner workings of Suarez' exotic Uruguayan brain. He is very good at footie. We don't want him to be suspended. 🙂

 

[vantage]

I find it highly unlikely that Suarez is actually a racist, given he is South American, but the crux of the issue is whether he said what he said to annoy Evra and whether he actually knew what he was saying.

I think he knew exactly what he was doing but Evra had just called him "South American" so he decided it was fair game.