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The Suarez/Evra Racism Row

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[quote author=Sunny link=topic=47188.msg1445061#msg1445061 date=1324124483]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=47188.msg1445055#msg1445055 date=1324124246]
[quote author=Kenny4PM link=topic=47188.msg1445050#msg1445050 date=1324123985]
"Luis Suarez's lawyers are right to argue that addressing a person by referring to their appearance, including race, is common practice from Tijuana to Tierra del Fuego.

Spanish terms for "fatty", "skinny", "shorty", "whitey" and even "chino" – literally meaning "Chinese" – are often used in the way many Britons might say "mate".

So too is the term "negro", meaning "black". Although most English-speakers might find any of these terms offensive, they are usually taken neutrally in Latin America".


[/quote]

Where did the game take place ?

Latin America ?
[/quote]

Next time you come to Liverpool you're only allowed to use scouse and English terminology. None of that Irish bollocks
[/quote]

To be sure, to be sure.
 
Sorry D-Mac but there are too many inconsistencies in people's understanding of the word for your definition to be accpeted as the clear cut definition of the word. Even Poyet's understanding of it substantiates it being about the colour of ones skin.
 
I dont really think that anyone at this stage doesnt understand that the term Negreto (when used affectionately or amongst friends) can be innoffensive and/or a term of affection.
I dont know why this point is being laboured as Evra and Suarez are neither friends or were they involved in an affectionate discourse.
 
And I accept that it can be used in different contexts, but to suggest that Suarez had no inclination that the term had a racial implication and was using it in a way other than to be offensive or wind Evra up is a bit bizarre to me tbh
 
[quote author=LadyRed link=topic=47188.msg1444688#msg1444688 date=1324057635]
Yeah I made up my mind about racism a long time ago.
[/quote]

I remember the racism thread in the GC thread where we agreed that it's about being culturally sensitive. Things that ARE racist in England aren't racist in Australia, or South America, or Israel. Things that ARE racist in South America may be nothing in Holland or Morocco or England. I've made it a point to ask most of my South American friends (From Venezuela, Colombia, Brazil, Argentina etc) their thoughts on the term (without bringing up this incident) and no one said the term in THEIR culture is racist/offensive. Luis was most likely, in my opinion, culturally insensitive ... I don't believe him, or the millions in South America, are racist for using the term. I strongly doubt you do.

Going back to the same conclusion I think we had in that thread in the GC - he shouldn't have used the term at all ... If you think you're going to offend someone with a term - especially when you're in a foreign environment, don't use it.
 
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=47188.msg1445198#msg1445198 date=1324137282]

Going back to the same conclusion I think we had in that thread in the GC - he shouldn't have used the term at all ... If you think you're going to offend someone with a term - especially when you're in a foreign environment, don't use it.
[/quote]

I think that's the crux of the matter. If he isn't found guilty of being racist, someone should deffo be having a word in his ear about not being a bit of a stupid tit.
 
[quote author=Halmeister link=topic=47188.msg1444947#msg1444947 date=1324099944]

In my head, and this is purely conjecture - for the first time in this thread I am posting conjecture - Evra and Suarez got a bit wound up. Suarez said negrito a few times, saw it wound Evra up, said it again - not aware of the racial connotations - the ref came over, told them to both stop being bitches. Evra didn't say anything. After the game Ferguson asked what happened - Evra said he said negrito, Ferguson marched him into the ref's dressing room to put in a complaint, and then Evra went and spoke to the French media.

[/quote]

Honestly ?? You've had a think about all the little bits we know and come up with this ?. That a man who has lived in Europe a few years has no idea that the word "negrito" could sound similar to other words which do offend people ? That right at that moment he was thinking "hey this is weird , the word "negrito" is winding Evra up , i've no idea why but i'm going to use it again cause it's working " ......that's ridiculous .

And yeah yeah , i'm sure he was using it in a condescending "darling" sense .



**Edit ....sorry I should point out that i'm not saying Suarez didn't didn't use the term innocently , just that i very much doubt your potential scenario where he used it and saw it was winding Evra up but he didn't know why .
 
[quote author=SummerOnions link=topic=47188.msg1445203#msg1445203 date=1324137593]
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=47188.msg1445198#msg1445198 date=1324137282]

Going back to the same conclusion I think we had in that thread in the GC - he shouldn't have used the term at all ... If you think you're going to offend someone with a term - especially when you're in a foreign environment, don't use it.
[/quote]

I think that's the crux of the matter. If he isn't found guilty of being racist, someone should deffo be having a word in his ear about not being a bit of a stupid tit.
[/quote]

I strongly doubt he's a racist ...

He used a term that can be taken as racist in a foreign country (We can give many examples of this I think) ... he's culturally insensitive/ignorant.
 
[quote author=SummerOnions link=topic=47188.msg1445203#msg1445203 date=1324137593]
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=47188.msg1445198#msg1445198 date=1324137282]

Going back to the same conclusion I think we had in that thread in the GC - he shouldn't have used the term at all ... If you think you're going to offend someone with a term - especially when you're in a foreign environment, don't use it.
[/quote]

I think that's the crux of the matter. If he isn't found guilty of being racist, someone should deffo be having a word in his ear about not being a bit of a stupid tit.
[/quote]

They should have that word with him regardless of him being found guilty. That there may be some differences in how people view things due to cultural difference, and he needs to be sensitive to that. But that's where it should end.

But if he is called a Racist based only on the evidence given so far, then he has grounds to take legal action.

Some on this thread seem to think calling an innocent a Racist is less of a crime than actually being a Racist. (See Rosco). It's equally offensive. I'd be livid if someone called me a racist. Just as much as if someone insulted me racially...may be more, because my morality is not questioned in the later.

Regardless of how the investigation briefing is worded by the FA, the conclusion that media will take out of a guilty verdict in this case would be that Suarez is a Racist. So i think, the FA needs to carefully evaluate this before passing a verdict....unlike some on this website.

Some of you should really get off your high horses....
 
[quote author=Hansern link=topic=47188.msg1445053#msg1445053 date=1324124100]
A lot of rumours about Suarez being found not guilty doing the rounds on twitter.

Why hasnt this case like JTs been handed over to the Police? Lack of evidence?
[/quote]

I think it's because nobody from the public or Evra has reported it to the police . I believe someone , i have no idea who , made a complaint to the police regarding EBJT.

But I was wondering myself , if he was indeed found guilty would the police then ask to see the evidence and investigate themselves ?
 
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=47188.msg1445165#msg1445165 date=1324135257]
I dont really think that anyone at this stage doesnt understand that the term Negreto (when used affectionately or amongst friends) can be innoffensive and/or a term of affection.
I dont know why this point is being laboured as Evra and Suarez are neither friends or were they involved in an affectionate discourse.
[/quote]

I can wind you up you whilst calling you sweet-heart. In fact, that, for me, may be part of the wind up. Let's say the term is not negrito, but 'mate'. This is a lovely affectionate word is it not?

How many insults and aggressive encounters can include the term 'mate'? Loads. "Are you trying to fucking wind me up mate?" "Hey Mate, are you being deliberately fucking thick?" "Are you looking at my bird, mate?" etc. etc.

Is the person using the term 'mate' in these incidents being friendly? Of course not. Is the term 'mate' itself part of the insult? Don't be fucking stupid, mate.

See what I did there? Honestly, this is not *that* hard to get your head around. Is it?
 
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=47188.msg1445165#msg1445165 date=1324135257]
I dont really think that anyone at this stage doesnt understand that the term Negreto (when used affectionately or amongst friends) can be innoffensive and/or a term of affection.
I dont know why this point is being laboured as Evra and Suarez are neither friends or were they involved in an affectionate discourse.
[/quote]

It's being emphasised because even in this post you show that you either haven't got the point at all or are determined to ignore it. The meaning of the word "negrito" is not confined to the contexts you suggest.

And Zeppelin, the Dutch equivalent of the "n" word sounds very different indeed from the English version. Convicting Luis of using the word with racist intent simply on the basis that "he's been in Europe for a few years" is shallow at best.
 
I highley doubthe's a rascist. Having played several years in one of the most ethnic diverse leagues in Europe, something like this would happened there aswell.


Posted Today, 12:06 PM
Thiago Alcantara at it and all now.

"@Thi_Alcantara91: Los 4 negritos en Tokyo ayer antes de cenar!! El mítico Mazinho, el gran Zizinho y el pendejo de @jona2santos... http://t.co/sl9Dd9dH"
 
[quote author=Hansern link=topic=47188.msg1445225#msg1445225 date=1324139158]
I highley doubthe's a rascist. Having played several years in one of the most ethnic diverse leagues in Europe, something like this would happened there aswell.


Posted Today, 12:06 PM
Thiago Alcantara at it and all now.

"@Thi_Alcantara91: Los 4 negritos en Tokyo ayer antes de cenar!! El mítico Mazinho, el gran Zizinho y el pendejo de @jona2santos... http://t.co/sl9Dd9dH"
[/quote]

Thiago is a racist. So is Chicharito (he called Omar Esparanza the term). I feel bad for these South Americans ... so unaware of their racism.
 
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=47188.msg1445223#msg1445223 date=1324139031]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=47188.msg1445165#msg1445165 date=1324135257]
I dont really think that anyone at this stage doesnt understand that the term Negreto (when used affectionately or amongst friends) can be innoffensive and/or a term of affection.
I dont know why this point is being laboured as Evra and Suarez are neither friends or were they involved in an affectionate discourse.
[/quote]

It's being emphasised because even in this post you show that you either haven't got the point at all or are determined to ignore it. The meaning of the word "negrito" is not confined to the contexts you suggest.

And Zeppelin, the Dutch equivalent of the "n" word sounds very different indeed from the English version. Convicting Luis of using the word with racist intent simply on the basis that "he's been in Europe for a few years" is shallow at best.
[/quote]I havnt 'confined' it at all JJ.
Perhaps you want me to have so are not reading what I wrote.
I said clearly 'can be' not 'can ONLY be'
I dont think I have left the word (or any form of it) in any confines.
I accept that it can be used in a non threatening non aggressive even friendly way.
My worry is that this is NOT how it was used.
I guess that is what the FA are trying to ascertain.
Or maybe i am just being stupid.
I cant say i care all that much.
 
[quote author=doctor_mac link=topic=47188.msg1445222#msg1445222 date=1324138913]

I can wind you up you whilst calling you sweet-heart. In fact, that, for me, may be part of the wind up. Let's say the term is not negrito, but 'mate'. This is a lovely affectionate word is it not?

How many insults and aggressive encounters can include the term 'mate'? Loads. "Are you trying to fucking wind me up mate?" "Hey Mate, are you being deliberately fucking thick?" "Are you looking at my bird, mate?" etc. etc.

Is the person using the term 'mate' in these incidents being friendly? Of course not. Is the term 'mate' itself part of the insult? Don't be fucking stupid, mate.

See what I did there? Honestly, this is not *that* hard to get your head around. Is it?


[/quote]

Exactly ! And I think this is exactly the context it was used in. I don't understand why others can't grasp this. End of the day though we're flogging the fuck out of something none of us can really prove. The only person who knows the intent was Suarez and the onlly person who knows if they took true offence was Evra - with the official complaint being heavily influenced and driven by that despicable hateful and bitter cunt Ferguson. My hate for that twat grows daily.
 
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=47188.msg1445230#msg1445230 date=1324139669]
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=47188.msg1445223#msg1445223 date=1324139031]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=47188.msg1445165#msg1445165 date=1324135257]
I dont really think that anyone at this stage doesnt understand that the term Negreto (when used affectionately or amongst friends) can be innoffensive and/or a term of affection.
I dont know why this point is being laboured as Evra and Suarez are neither friends or were they involved in an affectionate discourse.
[/quote]

It's being emphasised because even in this post you show that you either haven't got the point at all or are determined to ignore it. The meaning of the word "negrito" is not confined to the contexts you suggest.

And Zeppelin, the Dutch equivalent of the "n" word sounds very different indeed from the English version. Convicting Luis of using the word with racist intent simply on the basis that "he's been in Europe for a few years" is shallow at best.
[/quote]I havnt 'confined' it at all JJ.
Perhaps you want me to have so are not reading what I wrote.
I said clearly 'can be' not 'can ONLY be'
I dont think I have left the word (or any form of it) in any confines.
I accept that it can be used in a non threatening non aggressive even friendly way.
My worry is that this is NOT how it was used.
I guess that is what the FA are trying to ascertain.
Or maybe i am just being stupid.
I cant say i care all that much.
[/quote]

Sorry but your qualifier ("when used affectionately or amongst friends&quot😉 is the problem here, Oncy. In using it you're saying that the word takes on a different meaning outside those circumstances. It doesn't.

Nobody doubts Luis was winding Evra up. The issue is whether he was knowingly using a racist term in the process. I guess we'll just have to agree to differ (again) on whether the evidence points to that.

And yes, Sunny, Ferguson's plumbed new depths this time. Certain things Kenny's said in interviews suggest to me that he thinks the same.
 
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=47188.msg1445223#msg1445223 date=1324139031]


And Zeppelin, the Dutch equivalent of the "n" word sounds very different indeed from the English version. Convicting Luis of using the word with racist intent simply on the basis that "he's been in Europe for a few years" is shallow at best.
[/quote]

Yeah i had already edited my post before i read this ....i am not convicting him of anything , i just don't buy Halmeister's theory that Suarez had no idea why the word might be be winding Evra up but kept doing it as it was working . Actually , in Germany they use the word "neger" for many things , one including a drink ....but more and more , especially the younger , are stopping to use it as they know it offends in other languages . I'm pretty sure lots of people are aware that in english those words are offensive , but yes perhaps Suarez and many others aren't .

And If you'd read any of my other posts you'd see I haven't really made any decision on what Suarez did or didn't do ...i have just been debating different side of the hypothetical "what if " .
And that's my problem with alot of the posts in this thread , I've no idea why so many of you are sticking to one side of your argument as if you have all the facts and are convinced of what did or didn't happen . Nobody really knows yet .
 
I don't think he's racist. He was probably just being a wind-up merchant.

Either way I hope he doesn't get banned because all it would serve to do is fuck up the slim chance we have of keeping up with the rest of the chasing pack.
 
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=47188.msg1445238#msg1445238 date=1324140478]
[quote author=doctor_mac link=topic=47188.msg1445222#msg1445222 date=1324138913]

I can wind you up you whilst calling you sweet-heart. In fact, that, for me, may be part of the wind up. Let's say the term is not negrito, but 'mate'. This is a lovely affectionate word is it not?

How many insults and aggressive encounters can include the term 'mate'? Loads. "Are you trying to fucking wind me up mate?" "Hey Mate, are you being deliberately fucking thick?" "Are you looking at my bird, mate?" etc. etc.

Is the person using the term 'mate' in these incidents being friendly? Of course not. Is the term 'mate' itself part of the insult? Don't be fucking stupid, mate.


See what I did there? Honestly, this is not *that* hard to get your head around. Is it?


[/quote]

Exactly ! And I think this is exactly the context it was used in. I don't understand why others can't grasp this. End of the day

though we're flogging the fuck out of something none of us can really prove. The only person who knows the intent was Suarez and the onlly person who knows if they took true offence was Evra - with the official complaint being heavily influenced and driven by that despicable hateful and bitter cunt Ferguson. My hate for that twat grows daily.
[/quote]

Nail on head
 
Zep, that was just a hashed up version of what I reckon happened. I've already been proven that it was inaccurate with the whole French media bit. It was just a guess.

My understanding of it, as I've said a few pages back, is that the word doesn't have any racial connotations at all. White people from these cultures use the term amongst each other. Whether when used aggressively or patronisingly (is that a word?) does it have racial implications is the matter here, but I don't believe it does. I may be wrong. The "ito" on the end, however, can be used to demean. So that was probably used to wind Evra up, not necessarily the "negro" stem.

I don't know. Despite my stance in this thread would indicate, I'm not fully decided. But everything I've heard so far about what happened and the explanation of certain things have allowed me to give him the benefit of the doubt. When I first heard about it I was outraged.
 
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=47188.msg1445242#msg1445242 date=1324140553]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=47188.msg1445230#msg1445230 date=1324139669]
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=47188.msg1445223#msg1445223 date=1324139031]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=47188.msg1445165#msg1445165 date=1324135257]
I dont really think that anyone at this stage doesnt understand that the term Negreto (when used affectionately or amongst friends) can be innoffensive and/or a term of affection.
I dont know why this point is being laboured as Evra and Suarez are neither friends or were they involved in an affectionate discourse.
[/quote]

It's being emphasised because even in this post you show that you either haven't got the point at all or are determined to ignore it. The meaning of the word "negrito" is not confined to the contexts you suggest.

And Zeppelin, the Dutch equivalent of the "n" word sounds very different indeed from the English version. Convicting Luis of using the word with racist intent simply on the basis that "he's been in Europe for a few years" is shallow at best.
[/quote]I havnt 'confined' it at all JJ.
Perhaps you want me to have so are not reading what I wrote.
I said clearly 'can be' not 'can ONLY be'
I dont think I have left the word (or any form of it) in any confines.
I accept that it can be used in a non threatening non aggressive even friendly way.
My worry is that this is NOT how it was used.
I guess that is what the FA are trying to ascertain.
Or maybe i am just being stupid.
I cant say i care all that much.
[/quote]

Sorry but your qualifier ("when used affectionately or amongst friends&quot😉 is the problem here, Oncy. In using it you're saying that the word takes on a different meaning outside those circumstances. It doesnt.
[/quote]

Using the word "negrito," a well-recognized and profoundly racist epithet, whose literal translation means "little black man" or "little black boy," Ortez referred to Obama as "that little black boy who knows nothing about nothing" ["ese negrito que no sabe nada de nada"] and "a little black man who doesn't know where Tegucigalpa is" ["el negrito, no conoce donde queda Tegucigalpa"]. In another case, he told the Honduran newspaper El Tiempo (translation from DailyKos):

There are plenty of other examples of people who seem to think it can be used as an insult.
Im not saying he did use it insultingly but to suggest it cant be seems to be a leap to me.
 
[quote author=Halmeister link=topic=47188.msg1445257#msg1445257 date=1324141587]
Zep, that was just a hashed up version of what I reckon happened. I've already been proven that it was inaccurate with the whole French media bit. It was just a guess.

My understanding of it, as I've said a few pages back, is that the word doesn't have any racial connotations at all. White people from these cultures use the term amongst each other. Whether when used aggressively or patronisingly (is that a word?) does it have racial implications is the matter here, but I don't believe it does. I may be wrong. The "ito" on the end, however, can be used to demean. So that was probably used to wind Evra up, not necessarily the "negro" stem.

I don't know. Despite my stance in this thread would indicate, I'm not fully decided. But everything I've heard so far about what happened and the explanation of certain things have allowed me to give him the benefit of the doubt. When I first heard about it I was outraged.
[/quote]

fair enough chap ...if the excuse of cultural differences is genuine then i have no problem supporting him either . I've no problem acknowledging that different things carry different meaning and offence in different cultures and languages . Guess some people doubt the excuse considering the situation it was used in was an aggressive one which i think is a fair point also . We just have to see if the full story ever comes out .
 
I find that really odd Oncey - "Using the word "negrito," a well-recognized and profoundly racist epithet"

I've asked numerous South Americans - and no one has said anything to make me believe the above. It's not like I was asking Liverpool fans (I asked one), or even footy fans - just regular South American folk I know here.

Oh well ... as I said earlier, word should have never been used ... Cultural sensitivity, within reason, is the way to go.
 
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