Yes. The function of the courts is to regulate society, not to pander to its inconsistencies.
The Suarez/Evra Racism Row
- Thread starter Stulikesdrums
- Start date
- Latest activity Latest activity:
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=47188.msg1456964#msg1456964 date=1325781786]
[quote author=Woland link=topic=47188.msg1456958#msg1456958 date=1325781422]
[quote author=monsieurdantes link=topic=47188.msg1456953#msg1456953 date=1325781186]
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=47188.msg1456934#msg1456934 date=1325780419]
[quote author=Mystic link=topic=47188.msg1456927#msg1456927 date=1325779806]
[quote author=LadyRed link=topic=47188.msg1456926#msg1456926 date=1325779696]
I don't understand what the deal is with this Evra video?
Are people really gonna start justifying white people using the N word is okay cos some black people use it? Is that what we're doing now?
[/quote]
Not quite, more like why should a black man be able to call another black man it? It's a racist term, it shouldn't be used by anyone, white, black, violet, whatever.
[/quote]
Exactamundo. It should NOT depend on context. We cannot have one rule for some and another for the rest.
[/quote]
Slow down and think about why you just said that. Because it does depend on context. It is a complicated intricate dependency. If people lack the mental capacity to understand that and so assume it is not a factor...good luck with that. But don't pretend it is anything more than an assumption you've had to make because of your own limited brain power. Meanwhile, the rest of us with fully functioning brains will not make the same assumption, and we'd appreciate it if you didn't argue with us about the resulting answer. We're right. You're wrong because you're not as clever as us. It's really that simple.
[/quote]
This, but without calling everyone else thick.
I don't know about you guys but I use very different language with different groups of people and different individuals based on my relationship with them.
[/quote]
Not buying. The whole point of tribunals like the one Luis Suarez has just been dragged through is to be above such subjectivities.
Anita, NOBODY'S SAYING IT'S THE SAME, OK? We get it. It's different. The point some of us are making is that it shouldn't be, certainly not in tribunals and suchlike where important cases should be decided according to rules which are the same for everyone.
[/quote]
The rules on this ought to be subjective.... because racism is subjective. I'm not following why you're disagreeing because you understand this JJ.
You cannot objectively say calling someone negro is racist. You need to factor in the context and those intricate dependencies (which you have done all through this thread).
By the exact same logic, you cannot objectively say calling someone n****r is racist. You need to factor in the context for example who said it. (now, anita is able to do that, but you have suddenly lost your ability to do it).
Who said it, what language it was said in, what time of day, which country, which place, to whom it was said, what tone of voice was used. ALL factors. Too many factors for the FA and the dumbass british media. That's their problem.
[quote author=Woland link=topic=47188.msg1456958#msg1456958 date=1325781422]
[quote author=monsieurdantes link=topic=47188.msg1456953#msg1456953 date=1325781186]
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=47188.msg1456934#msg1456934 date=1325780419]
[quote author=Mystic link=topic=47188.msg1456927#msg1456927 date=1325779806]
[quote author=LadyRed link=topic=47188.msg1456926#msg1456926 date=1325779696]
I don't understand what the deal is with this Evra video?
Are people really gonna start justifying white people using the N word is okay cos some black people use it? Is that what we're doing now?
[/quote]
Not quite, more like why should a black man be able to call another black man it? It's a racist term, it shouldn't be used by anyone, white, black, violet, whatever.
[/quote]
Exactamundo. It should NOT depend on context. We cannot have one rule for some and another for the rest.
[/quote]
Slow down and think about why you just said that. Because it does depend on context. It is a complicated intricate dependency. If people lack the mental capacity to understand that and so assume it is not a factor...good luck with that. But don't pretend it is anything more than an assumption you've had to make because of your own limited brain power. Meanwhile, the rest of us with fully functioning brains will not make the same assumption, and we'd appreciate it if you didn't argue with us about the resulting answer. We're right. You're wrong because you're not as clever as us. It's really that simple.
[/quote]
This, but without calling everyone else thick.
I don't know about you guys but I use very different language with different groups of people and different individuals based on my relationship with them.
[/quote]
Not buying. The whole point of tribunals like the one Luis Suarez has just been dragged through is to be above such subjectivities.
Anita, NOBODY'S SAYING IT'S THE SAME, OK? We get it. It's different. The point some of us are making is that it shouldn't be, certainly not in tribunals and suchlike where important cases should be decided according to rules which are the same for everyone.
[/quote]
The rules on this ought to be subjective.... because racism is subjective. I'm not following why you're disagreeing because you understand this JJ.
You cannot objectively say calling someone negro is racist. You need to factor in the context and those intricate dependencies (which you have done all through this thread).
By the exact same logic, you cannot objectively say calling someone n****r is racist. You need to factor in the context for example who said it. (now, anita is able to do that, but you have suddenly lost your ability to do it).
Who said it, what language it was said in, what time of day, which country, which place, to whom it was said, what tone of voice was used. ALL factors. Too many factors for the FA and the dumbass british media. That's their problem.
[quote author=LadyRed link=topic=47188.msg1#msg1 date=1325781565]
[quote author=Loch Ness Monster link=topic=47188.msg1456950#msg1456950 date=1325781105]
[quote author=LadyRed link=topic=47188.msg1456930#msg1456930 date=1325780271]
You found it strange that a black man was uncomfortable using the N word to a group of white men. Riiiight.
Mystic- I personally hate the use of the term, including when black people use it, but to suggest the context for a black person using it is the same as a white person using it is ridiculous
[/quote]
Are you suggesting Neets that there are different groups of society that have cultural reasons which make it acceptable to use an 'N' word? Because surely that is how the whole problem began, and the FA seem to think that isd not possible.
[/quote]
Nessy, it's like someone from Manchester sitting with a bunch of fellow mancs and making nasty joke about people from Liverpool not having jobs and nicking wheel caps or whatever, and saying that's the same as a scouser making jokes about Liverpool. It isn't.
Honestly if people on the forum fail to understand that a black person using the N word has a completely different contextual framework, socially and historically, I really don't know what to say.
Again, like I said, I don't like the use of the word from anyone, but I would never be ignorant enough to think a white person using it is the same as a black person using it; I really can't articulate it beyond it's plain stupid.
[/quote]
So a black person using that word is Ok because it has a different social and historical framework but that rule does not apply to a Latin American using a word which, for him, has a similar framework ?
[quote author=Loch Ness Monster link=topic=47188.msg1456950#msg1456950 date=1325781105]
[quote author=LadyRed link=topic=47188.msg1456930#msg1456930 date=1325780271]
You found it strange that a black man was uncomfortable using the N word to a group of white men. Riiiight.
Mystic- I personally hate the use of the term, including when black people use it, but to suggest the context for a black person using it is the same as a white person using it is ridiculous
[/quote]
Are you suggesting Neets that there are different groups of society that have cultural reasons which make it acceptable to use an 'N' word? Because surely that is how the whole problem began, and the FA seem to think that isd not possible.
[/quote]
Nessy, it's like someone from Manchester sitting with a bunch of fellow mancs and making nasty joke about people from Liverpool not having jobs and nicking wheel caps or whatever, and saying that's the same as a scouser making jokes about Liverpool. It isn't.
Honestly if people on the forum fail to understand that a black person using the N word has a completely different contextual framework, socially and historically, I really don't know what to say.
Again, like I said, I don't like the use of the word from anyone, but I would never be ignorant enough to think a white person using it is the same as a black person using it; I really can't articulate it beyond it's plain stupid.
[/quote]
So a black person using that word is Ok because it has a different social and historical framework but that rule does not apply to a Latin American using a word which, for him, has a similar framework ?
S
Squiggles
Guest
The thing is, the Evra video has no bearing on this case whatsoever. We're having an entirely separate discussion here.
[quote author=jexykrodic link=topic=47188.msg1456966#msg1456966 date=1325781830]
[quote author=LadyRed link=topic=47188.msg1456926#msg1456926 date=1325779696]
I don't understand what the deal is with this Evra video?
Are people really gonna start justifying white people using the N word is okay cos some black people use it? Is that what we're doing now?
[/quote]
The deal is that if you change your allegation from being called a n***** to 'negro' because the former is such a horrible word you can't even bring yourself to use it when reporting it to the referee, then the video puts the lie to that. It might seem to make his statements 'unreliable'.
[/quote]
Anita thinks he could have told the referee that he had been called black, instead of n***r, because he was in a group of white men. Im not convinced myself
[quote author=LadyRed link=topic=47188.msg1456926#msg1456926 date=1325779696]
I don't understand what the deal is with this Evra video?
Are people really gonna start justifying white people using the N word is okay cos some black people use it? Is that what we're doing now?
[/quote]
The deal is that if you change your allegation from being called a n***** to 'negro' because the former is such a horrible word you can't even bring yourself to use it when reporting it to the referee, then the video puts the lie to that. It might seem to make his statements 'unreliable'.
[/quote]
Anita thinks he could have told the referee that he had been called black, instead of n***r, because he was in a group of white men. Im not convinced myself
[quote author=monsieurdantes link=topic=47188.msg1456973#msg1456973 date=1325782144]
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=47188.msg1456964#msg1456964 date=1325781786]
[quote author=Woland link=topic=47188.msg1456958#msg1456958 date=1325781422]
[quote author=monsieurdantes link=topic=47188.msg1456953#msg1456953 date=1325781186]
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=47188.msg1456934#msg1456934 date=1325780419]
[quote author=Mystic link=topic=47188.msg1456927#msg1456927 date=1325779806]
[quote author=LadyRed link=topic=47188.msg1456926#msg1456926 date=1325779696]
I don't understand what the deal is with this Evra video?
Are people really gonna start justifying white people using the N word is okay cos some black people use it? Is that what we're doing now?
[/quote]
Not quite, more like why should a black man be able to call another black man it? It's a racist term, it shouldn't be used by anyone, white, black, violet, whatever.
[/quote]
Exactamundo. It should NOT depend on context. We cannot have one rule for some and another for the rest.
[/quote]
Slow down and think about why you just said that. Because it does depend on context. It is a complicated intricate dependency. If people lack the mental capacity to understand that and so assume it is not a factor...good luck with that. But don't pretend it is anything more than an assumption you've had to make because of your own limited brain power. Meanwhile, the rest of us with fully functioning brains will not make the same assumption, and we'd appreciate it if you didn't argue with us about the resulting answer. We're right. You're wrong because you're not as clever as us. It's really that simple.
[/quote]
This, but without calling everyone else thick.
I don't know about you guys but I use very different language with different groups of people and different individuals based on my relationship with them.
[/quote]
Not buying. The whole point of tribunals like the one Luis Suarez has just been dragged through is to be above such subjectivities.
Anita, NOBODY'S SAYING IT'S THE SAME, OK? We get it. It's different. The point some of us are making is that it shouldn't be, certainly not in tribunals and suchlike where important cases should be decided according to rules which are the same for everyone.
[/quote]
The rules on this ought to be subjective.... because racism is subjective. I'm not following why you're disagreeing because you understand this JJ.
You cannot objectively say calling someone negro is racist. You need to factor in the context and those intricate dependencies (which you have done all through this thread).
By the exact same logic, you cannot objectively say calling someone n****r is racist. You need to factor in the context for example who said it. (now, anita is able to do that, but you have suddenly lost your ability to do it).
Who said it, what language it was said in, what time of day, which country, which place, to whom it was said, what tone of voice was used. ALL factors. Too many factors for the FA and the dumbass british media. That's their problem.
[/quote]
On the contrary, dantes, I'm arguing what I've argued - alongside you - all along. Suarez was speaking Spanish. In that context "negro" is not an insult. One of the fundamental injustices in this case is that he's been judged as though he were speaking English, the assumption which underlies your post above.
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=47188.msg1456964#msg1456964 date=1325781786]
[quote author=Woland link=topic=47188.msg1456958#msg1456958 date=1325781422]
[quote author=monsieurdantes link=topic=47188.msg1456953#msg1456953 date=1325781186]
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=47188.msg1456934#msg1456934 date=1325780419]
[quote author=Mystic link=topic=47188.msg1456927#msg1456927 date=1325779806]
[quote author=LadyRed link=topic=47188.msg1456926#msg1456926 date=1325779696]
I don't understand what the deal is with this Evra video?
Are people really gonna start justifying white people using the N word is okay cos some black people use it? Is that what we're doing now?
[/quote]
Not quite, more like why should a black man be able to call another black man it? It's a racist term, it shouldn't be used by anyone, white, black, violet, whatever.
[/quote]
Exactamundo. It should NOT depend on context. We cannot have one rule for some and another for the rest.
[/quote]
Slow down and think about why you just said that. Because it does depend on context. It is a complicated intricate dependency. If people lack the mental capacity to understand that and so assume it is not a factor...good luck with that. But don't pretend it is anything more than an assumption you've had to make because of your own limited brain power. Meanwhile, the rest of us with fully functioning brains will not make the same assumption, and we'd appreciate it if you didn't argue with us about the resulting answer. We're right. You're wrong because you're not as clever as us. It's really that simple.
[/quote]
This, but without calling everyone else thick.
I don't know about you guys but I use very different language with different groups of people and different individuals based on my relationship with them.
[/quote]
Not buying. The whole point of tribunals like the one Luis Suarez has just been dragged through is to be above such subjectivities.
Anita, NOBODY'S SAYING IT'S THE SAME, OK? We get it. It's different. The point some of us are making is that it shouldn't be, certainly not in tribunals and suchlike where important cases should be decided according to rules which are the same for everyone.
[/quote]
The rules on this ought to be subjective.... because racism is subjective. I'm not following why you're disagreeing because you understand this JJ.
You cannot objectively say calling someone negro is racist. You need to factor in the context and those intricate dependencies (which you have done all through this thread).
By the exact same logic, you cannot objectively say calling someone n****r is racist. You need to factor in the context for example who said it. (now, anita is able to do that, but you have suddenly lost your ability to do it).
Who said it, what language it was said in, what time of day, which country, which place, to whom it was said, what tone of voice was used. ALL factors. Too many factors for the FA and the dumbass british media. That's their problem.
[/quote]
On the contrary, dantes, I'm arguing what I've argued - alongside you - all along. Suarez was speaking Spanish. In that context "negro" is not an insult. One of the fundamental injustices in this case is that he's been judged as though he were speaking English, the assumption which underlies your post above.
[quote author=Loch Ness Monster link=topic=47188.msg1456950#msg1456950 date=1325781105]
[quote author=LadyRed link=topic=47188.msg1456930#msg1456930 date=1325780271]
You found it strange that a black man was uncomfortable using the N word to a group of white men. Riiiight.
Mystic- I personally hate the use of the term, including when black people use it, but to suggest the context for a black person using it is the same as a white person using it is ridiculous
[/quote]
Are you suggesting Neets that there are different groups of society that have cultural reasons which make it acceptable to use an 'N' word? Because surely that is how the whole problem began, and the FA seem to think that isd not possible.
[/quote] Ha you don't say a lot but when you do its spot on
Regards
[quote author=LadyRed link=topic=47188.msg1456930#msg1456930 date=1325780271]
You found it strange that a black man was uncomfortable using the N word to a group of white men. Riiiight.
Mystic- I personally hate the use of the term, including when black people use it, but to suggest the context for a black person using it is the same as a white person using it is ridiculous
[/quote]
Are you suggesting Neets that there are different groups of society that have cultural reasons which make it acceptable to use an 'N' word? Because surely that is how the whole problem began, and the FA seem to think that isd not possible.
[/quote] Ha you don't say a lot but when you do its spot on
Regards
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=47188.msg1456967#msg1456967 date=1325781851]
Who knew Dantes was actually crackers?
I thought it was a show.
Still love you Dantes *points at Dantes*
[/quote]
I'm not crackers. I'm usually very nice and docile, but then that can change in an instant. In this racism debate out of courtesy like Woland I would never insult other peoples intelligence. But when people start calling Suarez a racist in the media, I'm like you know what fuck it. If you want to spout lies.... then dantes is going to forgoe nicities and start spouting the harsh truth. That I'm smart, and they're not. hahahahahaha kind of thing
Who knew Dantes was actually crackers?
I thought it was a show.
Still love you Dantes *points at Dantes*
[/quote]
I'm not crackers. I'm usually very nice and docile, but then that can change in an instant. In this racism debate out of courtesy like Woland I would never insult other peoples intelligence. But when people start calling Suarez a racist in the media, I'm like you know what fuck it. If you want to spout lies.... then dantes is going to forgoe nicities and start spouting the harsh truth. That I'm smart, and they're not. hahahahahaha kind of thing
S
Squiggles
Guest
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=47188.msg1456972#msg1456972 date=1325782045]
Yes. The function of the courts is to regulate society, not to pander to its inconsistencies.
[/quote]
Suarez is guilty then.
I knew you'd come round.
😉
Yes. The function of the courts is to regulate society, not to pander to its inconsistencies.
[/quote]
Suarez is guilty then.
I knew you'd come round.
😉
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=47188.msg1456975#msg1456975 date=1325782191]
The thing is, the Evra video has no bearing on this case whatsoever. We're having an entirely separate discussion here.
[/quote]
It certainly woulnt change the verdict. Once Luis admitted saying the word he was dead in the water because amongst other things the FA decided ( against the wishes of our solicitor ) to use objective intent instead of subjective intent.
However it give the lie to his assertion that he was uncomfortable using the n****r word.
The thing is, the Evra video has no bearing on this case whatsoever. We're having an entirely separate discussion here.
[/quote]
It certainly woulnt change the verdict. Once Luis admitted saying the word he was dead in the water because amongst other things the FA decided ( against the wishes of our solicitor ) to use objective intent instead of subjective intent.
However it give the lie to his assertion that he was uncomfortable using the n****r word.
[quote author=Jack D Rips link=topic=47188.msg1456976#msg1456976 date=1325782299]
[quote author=jexykrodic link=topic=47188.msg1456966#msg1456966 date=1325781830]
[quote author=LadyRed link=topic=47188.msg1456926#msg1456926 date=1325779696]
I don't understand what the deal is with this Evra video?
Are people really gonna start justifying white people using the N word is okay cos some black people use it? Is that what we're doing now?
[/quote]
The deal is that if you change your allegation from being called a n***** to 'negro' because the former is such a horrible word you can't even bring yourself to use it when reporting it to the referee, then the video puts the lie to that. It might seem to make his statements 'unreliable'.
[/quote]
Anita thinks he could have told the referee that he had been called black, instead of n***r, because he was in a group of white men. Im not convinced myself
[/quote]
He felt able to tell his Manager, why not the Referee?
[quote author=jexykrodic link=topic=47188.msg1456966#msg1456966 date=1325781830]
[quote author=LadyRed link=topic=47188.msg1456926#msg1456926 date=1325779696]
I don't understand what the deal is with this Evra video?
Are people really gonna start justifying white people using the N word is okay cos some black people use it? Is that what we're doing now?
[/quote]
The deal is that if you change your allegation from being called a n***** to 'negro' because the former is such a horrible word you can't even bring yourself to use it when reporting it to the referee, then the video puts the lie to that. It might seem to make his statements 'unreliable'.
[/quote]
Anita thinks he could have told the referee that he had been called black, instead of n***r, because he was in a group of white men. Im not convinced myself
[/quote]
He felt able to tell his Manager, why not the Referee?
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=47188.msg1456975#msg1456975 date=1325782191]
The thing is, the Evra video has no bearing on this case whatsoever. We're having an entirely separate discussion here.
[/quote]
Not really. He was deemed a credible witness by the FA. The video directly attacks that assumption given what he said to the commission about his avoidance of the "n" word.
The thing is, the Evra video has no bearing on this case whatsoever. We're having an entirely separate discussion here.
[/quote]
Not really. He was deemed a credible witness by the FA. The video directly attacks that assumption given what he said to the commission about his avoidance of the "n" word.
[quote author=Jack D Rips link=topic=47188.msg1456985#msg1456985 date=1325782609]
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=47188.msg1456975#msg1456975 date=1325782191]
The thing is, the Evra video has no bearing on this case whatsoever. We're having an entirely separate discussion here.
[/quote]
It certainly woulnt change the verdict. Once Luis admitted saying the word he was dead in the water because amongst other things the FA decided ( against the wishes of our solicitor ) to use objective intent instead of subjective intent.
However it give the lie to his assertion that he was uncomfortable using the n****r word.
[/quote]
Exactly.
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=47188.msg1456975#msg1456975 date=1325782191]
The thing is, the Evra video has no bearing on this case whatsoever. We're having an entirely separate discussion here.
[/quote]
It certainly woulnt change the verdict. Once Luis admitted saying the word he was dead in the water because amongst other things the FA decided ( against the wishes of our solicitor ) to use objective intent instead of subjective intent.
However it give the lie to his assertion that he was uncomfortable using the n****r word.
[/quote]
Exactly.
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=47188.msg1456983#msg1456983 date=1325782511]
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=47188.msg1456972#msg1456972 date=1325782045]
Yes. The function of the courts is to regulate society, not to pander to its inconsistencies.
[/quote]
Suarez is guilty then.
I knew you'd come round.
😉
[/quote]
Haha. Nope, given the different language he was speaking, but nice one all the same.
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=47188.msg1456972#msg1456972 date=1325782045]
Yes. The function of the courts is to regulate society, not to pander to its inconsistencies.
[/quote]
Suarez is guilty then.
I knew you'd come round.
😉
[/quote]
Haha. Nope, given the different language he was speaking, but nice one all the same.
[quote author=Jack D Rips link=topic=47188.msg1456928#msg1456928 date=1325779842]
http://www.mufoundation.org/AboutTheFoundation/TheBoard.aspx
Interesting list of directors
[/quote]
Intersting indeed. But he seemed more "credible" when presenting himself under the kick it out hat in this case! Prick
http://www.mufoundation.org/AboutTheFoundation/TheBoard.aspx
Interesting list of directors
[/quote]
Intersting indeed. But he seemed more "credible" when presenting himself under the kick it out hat in this case! Prick
[quote author=Jack D Rips link=topic=47188.msg1456976#msg1456976 date=1325782299]
[quote author=jexykrodic link=topic=47188.msg1456966#msg1456966 date=1325781830]
[quote author=LadyRed link=topic=47188.msg1456926#msg1456926 date=1325779696]
I don't understand what the deal is with this Evra video?
Are people really gonna start justifying white people using the N word is okay cos some black people use it? Is that what we're doing now?
[/quote]
The deal is that if you change your allegation from being called a n***** to 'negro' because the former is such a horrible word you can't even bring yourself to use it when reporting it to the referee, then the video puts the lie to that. It might seem to make his statements 'unreliable'.
[/quote]
Anita thinks he could have told the referee that he had been called black, instead of n***r, because he was in a group of white men. Im not convinced myself
[/quote]
Yeah well done jackass, that's exactly what I said
[quote author=jexykrodic link=topic=47188.msg1456966#msg1456966 date=1325781830]
[quote author=LadyRed link=topic=47188.msg1456926#msg1456926 date=1325779696]
I don't understand what the deal is with this Evra video?
Are people really gonna start justifying white people using the N word is okay cos some black people use it? Is that what we're doing now?
[/quote]
The deal is that if you change your allegation from being called a n***** to 'negro' because the former is such a horrible word you can't even bring yourself to use it when reporting it to the referee, then the video puts the lie to that. It might seem to make his statements 'unreliable'.
[/quote]
Anita thinks he could have told the referee that he had been called black, instead of n***r, because he was in a group of white men. Im not convinced myself
[/quote]
Yeah well done jackass, that's exactly what I said
S
Squiggles
Guest
[quote author=Jack D Rips link=topic=47188.msg1456985#msg1456985 date=1325782609]
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=47188.msg1456975#msg1456975 date=1325782191]
The thing is, the Evra video has no bearing on this case whatsoever. We're having an entirely separate discussion here.
[/quote]
It certainly woulnt change the verdict. Once Luis admitted saying the word he was dead in the water because amongst other things the FA decided ( against the wishes of our solicitor ) to use objective intent instead of subjective intent.
However it give the lie to his assertion that he was uncomfortable using the n****r word.
[/quote]
Definitely, but he still has every right to feel insulted by the remarks. Whether he is or not I couldn't tell you, but I wouldn't sit well with my morality to start questioning a black person who felt offended by racist remarks, even if it is Patrice Evra.
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=47188.msg1456975#msg1456975 date=1325782191]
The thing is, the Evra video has no bearing on this case whatsoever. We're having an entirely separate discussion here.
[/quote]
It certainly woulnt change the verdict. Once Luis admitted saying the word he was dead in the water because amongst other things the FA decided ( against the wishes of our solicitor ) to use objective intent instead of subjective intent.
However it give the lie to his assertion that he was uncomfortable using the n****r word.
[/quote]
Definitely, but he still has every right to feel insulted by the remarks. Whether he is or not I couldn't tell you, but I wouldn't sit well with my morality to start questioning a black person who felt offended by racist remarks, even if it is Patrice Evra.
S
Squiggles
Guest
[quote author=LadyRed link=topic=47188.msg1456992#msg1456992 date=1325782762]
[quote author=Jack D Rips link=topic=47188.msg1456976#msg1456976 date=1325782299]
[quote author=jexykrodic link=topic=47188.msg1456966#msg1456966 date=1325781830]
[quote author=LadyRed link=topic=47188.msg1456926#msg1456926 date=1325779696]
I don't understand what the deal is with this Evra video?
Are people really gonna start justifying white people using the N word is okay cos some black people use it? Is that what we're doing now?
[/quote]
The deal is that if you change your allegation from being called a n***** to 'negro' because the former is such a horrible word you can't even bring yourself to use it when reporting it to the referee, then the video puts the lie to that. It might seem to make his statements 'unreliable'.
[/quote]
Anita thinks he could have told the referee that he had been called black, instead of n***r, because he was in a group of white men. Im not convinced myself
[/quote]
Yeah well done jackass, that's exactly what I said
[/quote]
Ha!
Spark him.
[quote author=Jack D Rips link=topic=47188.msg1456976#msg1456976 date=1325782299]
[quote author=jexykrodic link=topic=47188.msg1456966#msg1456966 date=1325781830]
[quote author=LadyRed link=topic=47188.msg1456926#msg1456926 date=1325779696]
I don't understand what the deal is with this Evra video?
Are people really gonna start justifying white people using the N word is okay cos some black people use it? Is that what we're doing now?
[/quote]
The deal is that if you change your allegation from being called a n***** to 'negro' because the former is such a horrible word you can't even bring yourself to use it when reporting it to the referee, then the video puts the lie to that. It might seem to make his statements 'unreliable'.
[/quote]
Anita thinks he could have told the referee that he had been called black, instead of n***r, because he was in a group of white men. Im not convinced myself
[/quote]
Yeah well done jackass, that's exactly what I said
[/quote]
Ha!
Spark him.
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=47188.msg1456980#msg1456980 date=1325782454]
On the contrary, dantes, I'm arguing what I've argued - alongside you - all along. Suarez was speaking Spanish. In that context "negro" is not an insult. One of the fundamental injustices in this case is that he's been judged as though he were speaking English, the assumption which underlies your post above.
[/quote]
Yep, so the law on what is and is not racist must be subjective, when it comes to language used. It should also be subjective upon the person using the words, the country they are used in, the tone of voice etc etc etc. There's a practical limit upon the number of factors the law can consider of course.
What I (sunny and loch ness) are confused about is how on one hand for language...you are subjective and anita is subjective. but on the matter of who said it.....you are now being objective and anita is subjective.
On the contrary, dantes, I'm arguing what I've argued - alongside you - all along. Suarez was speaking Spanish. In that context "negro" is not an insult. One of the fundamental injustices in this case is that he's been judged as though he were speaking English, the assumption which underlies your post above.
[/quote]
Yep, so the law on what is and is not racist must be subjective, when it comes to language used. It should also be subjective upon the person using the words, the country they are used in, the tone of voice etc etc etc. There's a practical limit upon the number of factors the law can consider of course.
What I (sunny and loch ness) are confused about is how on one hand for language...you are subjective and anita is subjective. but on the matter of who said it.....you are now being objective and anita is subjective.
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=47188.msg1456974#msg1456974 date=1325782157]
[quote author=LadyRed link=topic=47188.msg1#msg1 date=1325781565]
[quote author=Loch Ness Monster link=topic=47188.msg1456950#msg1456950 date=1325781105]
[quote author=LadyRed link=topic=47188.msg1456930#msg1456930 date=1325780271]
You found it strange that a black man was uncomfortable using the N word to a group of white men. Riiiight.
Mystic- I personally hate the use of the term, including when black people use it, but to suggest the context for a black person using it is the same as a white person using it is ridiculous
[/quote]
Are you suggesting Neets that there are different groups of society that have cultural reasons which make it acceptable to use an 'N' word? Because surely that is how the whole problem began, and the FA seem to think that isd not possible.
[/quote]
Nessy, it's like someone from Manchester sitting with a bunch of fellow mancs and making nasty joke about people from Liverpool not having jobs and nicking wheel caps or whatever, and saying that's the same as a scouser making jokes about Liverpool. It isn't.
Honestly if people on the forum fail to understand that a black person using the N word has a completely different contextual framework, socially and historically, I really don't know what to say.
Again, like I said, I don't like the use of the word from anyone, but I would never be ignorant enough to think a white person using it is the same as a black person using it; I really can't articulate it beyond it's plain stupid.
[/quote]
So a black person using that word is Ok because it has a different social and historical framework but that rule does not apply to a Latin American using a word which, for him, has a similar framework ?
[/quote]
People have more ownership over their own culture and heritage and therefore are able to make observations, insights and even push the bar in a way people from outside that tradition never can. Luis Suarez can say what he wants about being S. Amercan, just not so much about being a black man, because he isn't one.
[quote author=LadyRed link=topic=47188.msg1#msg1 date=1325781565]
[quote author=Loch Ness Monster link=topic=47188.msg1456950#msg1456950 date=1325781105]
[quote author=LadyRed link=topic=47188.msg1456930#msg1456930 date=1325780271]
You found it strange that a black man was uncomfortable using the N word to a group of white men. Riiiight.
Mystic- I personally hate the use of the term, including when black people use it, but to suggest the context for a black person using it is the same as a white person using it is ridiculous
[/quote]
Are you suggesting Neets that there are different groups of society that have cultural reasons which make it acceptable to use an 'N' word? Because surely that is how the whole problem began, and the FA seem to think that isd not possible.
[/quote]
Nessy, it's like someone from Manchester sitting with a bunch of fellow mancs and making nasty joke about people from Liverpool not having jobs and nicking wheel caps or whatever, and saying that's the same as a scouser making jokes about Liverpool. It isn't.
Honestly if people on the forum fail to understand that a black person using the N word has a completely different contextual framework, socially and historically, I really don't know what to say.
Again, like I said, I don't like the use of the word from anyone, but I would never be ignorant enough to think a white person using it is the same as a black person using it; I really can't articulate it beyond it's plain stupid.
[/quote]
So a black person using that word is Ok because it has a different social and historical framework but that rule does not apply to a Latin American using a word which, for him, has a similar framework ?
[/quote]
People have more ownership over their own culture and heritage and therefore are able to make observations, insights and even push the bar in a way people from outside that tradition never can. Luis Suarez can say what he wants about being S. Amercan, just not so much about being a black man, because he isn't one.
[quote author=LadyRed link=topic=47188.msg1#msg1 date=1325783033]
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=47188.msg1456974#msg1456974 date=1325782157]
[quote author=LadyRed link=topic=47188.msg1#msg1 date=1325781565]
[quote author=Loch Ness Monster link=topic=47188.msg1456950#msg1456950 date=1325781105]
[quote author=LadyRed link=topic=47188.msg1456930#msg1456930 date=1325780271]
You found it strange that a black man was uncomfortable using the N word to a group of white men. Riiiight.
Mystic- I personally hate the use of the term, including when black people use it, but to suggest the context for a black person using it is the same as a white person using it is ridiculous
[/quote]
Are you suggesting Neets that there are different groups of society that have cultural reasons which make it acceptable to use an 'N' word? Because surely that is how the whole problem began, and the FA seem to think that isd not possible.
[/quote]
Nessy, it's like someone from Manchester sitting with a bunch of fellow mancs and making nasty joke about people from Liverpool not having jobs and nicking wheel caps or whatever, and saying that's the same as a scouser making jokes about Liverpool. It isn't.
Honestly if people on the forum fail to understand that a black person using the N word has a completely different contextual framework, socially and historically, I really don't know what to say.
Again, like I said, I don't like the use of the word from anyone, but I would never be ignorant enough to think a white person using it is the same as a black person using it; I really can't articulate it beyond it's plain stupid.
[/quote]
So a black person using that word is Ok because it has a different social and historical framework but that rule does not apply to a Latin American using a word which, for him, has a similar framework ?
[/quote]
People have more ownership over their own culture and heritage and therefore are able to make observations, insights and even push the bar in a way people from outside that tradition never can. Luis Suarez can say what he wants about being S. Amercan, just not so much about being a black man, because he isn't one.
[/quote]
And neither are you so what entitles you to such an observation ?
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=47188.msg1456974#msg1456974 date=1325782157]
[quote author=LadyRed link=topic=47188.msg1#msg1 date=1325781565]
[quote author=Loch Ness Monster link=topic=47188.msg1456950#msg1456950 date=1325781105]
[quote author=LadyRed link=topic=47188.msg1456930#msg1456930 date=1325780271]
You found it strange that a black man was uncomfortable using the N word to a group of white men. Riiiight.
Mystic- I personally hate the use of the term, including when black people use it, but to suggest the context for a black person using it is the same as a white person using it is ridiculous
[/quote]
Are you suggesting Neets that there are different groups of society that have cultural reasons which make it acceptable to use an 'N' word? Because surely that is how the whole problem began, and the FA seem to think that isd not possible.
[/quote]
Nessy, it's like someone from Manchester sitting with a bunch of fellow mancs and making nasty joke about people from Liverpool not having jobs and nicking wheel caps or whatever, and saying that's the same as a scouser making jokes about Liverpool. It isn't.
Honestly if people on the forum fail to understand that a black person using the N word has a completely different contextual framework, socially and historically, I really don't know what to say.
Again, like I said, I don't like the use of the word from anyone, but I would never be ignorant enough to think a white person using it is the same as a black person using it; I really can't articulate it beyond it's plain stupid.
[/quote]
So a black person using that word is Ok because it has a different social and historical framework but that rule does not apply to a Latin American using a word which, for him, has a similar framework ?
[/quote]
People have more ownership over their own culture and heritage and therefore are able to make observations, insights and even push the bar in a way people from outside that tradition never can. Luis Suarez can say what he wants about being S. Amercan, just not so much about being a black man, because he isn't one.
[/quote]
And neither are you so what entitles you to such an observation ?
The point of racism is that you shouldn't be prejudice based on skin colour, on that ilk you can't say it's fine for you to say that because you're one colour but it's unacceptable for someone else to say it because they're another colour. I know it's said almost as an endearment between black people, and not in an offensive way at all, but that's irrelevant, it still shouldn't be used by people of any colour, it's an offensive and racist word.
I think my favourite bit about this thread is the way people on here think they know how someone should react after a racial slur is thrown at them, because obviously everyone on here has had lots of experience of it and there is a set proforma that people must follow, and if someone fails to do so they're obviously lying and cannot be trusted!
[quote author=LadyRed link=topic=47188.msg1457004#msg1457004 date=1325783222]
I think my favourite bit about this thread is the way people on here think they know how someone should react after a racial slur is thrown at them, because obviously everyone on here has had lots of experience of it and there is a set proforma that people must follow, and if someone fails to do so they're obviously lying and cannot be trusted!
[/quote]
Its easy. When someone throw the slur at me I threaten to kick them... And then I threaten to punch them in their face!! And when that dont scare them I tell my friends that everyone heard it happen before run to my boss and cry a little bit before he takes me to someone who can comfort me more!! Easypeacy!!
I think my favourite bit about this thread is the way people on here think they know how someone should react after a racial slur is thrown at them, because obviously everyone on here has had lots of experience of it and there is a set proforma that people must follow, and if someone fails to do so they're obviously lying and cannot be trusted!
[/quote]
Its easy. When someone throw the slur at me I threaten to kick them... And then I threaten to punch them in their face!! And when that dont scare them I tell my friends that everyone heard it happen before run to my boss and cry a little bit before he takes me to someone who can comfort me more!! Easypeacy!!
[quote author=Woland link=topic=47188.msg1456989#msg1456989 date=1325782714]
Anyway you boring bastards I'm not talking to anyone who mentions this bullshit at drinkies.
[/quote]
Mines a whiskey. Black & White.
Anyway you boring bastards I'm not talking to anyone who mentions this bullshit at drinkies.
[/quote]
Mines a whiskey. Black & White.
[quote author=LadyRed link=topic=47188.msg1457000#msg1457000 date=1325783033]
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=47188.msg1456974#msg1456974 date=1325782157]
[quote author=LadyRed link=topic=47188.msg1#msg1 date=1325781565]
[quote author=Loch Ness Monster link=topic=47188.msg1456950#msg1456950 date=1325781105]
[quote author=LadyRed link=topic=47188.msg1456930#msg1456930 date=1325780271]
You found it strange that a black man was uncomfortable using the N word to a group of white men. Riiiight.
Mystic- I personally hate the use of the term, including when black people use it, but to suggest the context for a black person using it is the same as a white person using it is ridiculous
[/quote]
Are you suggesting Neets that there are different groups of society that have cultural reasons which make it acceptable to use an 'N' word? Because surely that is how the whole problem began, and the FA seem to think that isd not possible.
[/quote]
Nessy, it's like someone from Manchester sitting with a bunch of fellow mancs and making nasty joke about people from Liverpool not having jobs and nicking wheel caps or whatever, and saying that's the same as a scouser making jokes about Liverpool. It isn't.
Honestly if people on the forum fail to understand that a black person using the N word has a completely different contextual framework, socially and historically, I really don't know what to say.
Again, like I said, I don't like the use of the word from anyone, but I would never be ignorant enough to think a white person using it is the same as a black person using it; I really can't articulate it beyond it's plain stupid.
[/quote]
So a black person using that word is Ok because it has a different social and historical framework but that rule does not apply to a Latin American using a word which, for him, has a similar framework ?
[/quote]
People have more ownership over their own culture and heritage and therefore are able to make observations, insights and even push the bar in a way people from outside that tradition never can. Luis Suarez can say what he wants about being S. Amercan, just not so much about being a black man, because he isn't one.
[/quote]
I agree with this, I just think there are certain words, words which are purely offensive and racist, which should be said by no one, just like in an ideal world no one would use the word c*nt
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=47188.msg1456974#msg1456974 date=1325782157]
[quote author=LadyRed link=topic=47188.msg1#msg1 date=1325781565]
[quote author=Loch Ness Monster link=topic=47188.msg1456950#msg1456950 date=1325781105]
[quote author=LadyRed link=topic=47188.msg1456930#msg1456930 date=1325780271]
You found it strange that a black man was uncomfortable using the N word to a group of white men. Riiiight.
Mystic- I personally hate the use of the term, including when black people use it, but to suggest the context for a black person using it is the same as a white person using it is ridiculous
[/quote]
Are you suggesting Neets that there are different groups of society that have cultural reasons which make it acceptable to use an 'N' word? Because surely that is how the whole problem began, and the FA seem to think that isd not possible.
[/quote]
Nessy, it's like someone from Manchester sitting with a bunch of fellow mancs and making nasty joke about people from Liverpool not having jobs and nicking wheel caps or whatever, and saying that's the same as a scouser making jokes about Liverpool. It isn't.
Honestly if people on the forum fail to understand that a black person using the N word has a completely different contextual framework, socially and historically, I really don't know what to say.
Again, like I said, I don't like the use of the word from anyone, but I would never be ignorant enough to think a white person using it is the same as a black person using it; I really can't articulate it beyond it's plain stupid.
[/quote]
So a black person using that word is Ok because it has a different social and historical framework but that rule does not apply to a Latin American using a word which, for him, has a similar framework ?
[/quote]
People have more ownership over their own culture and heritage and therefore are able to make observations, insights and even push the bar in a way people from outside that tradition never can. Luis Suarez can say what he wants about being S. Amercan, just not so much about being a black man, because he isn't one.
[/quote]
I agree with this, I just think there are certain words, words which are purely offensive and racist, which should be said by no one, just like in an ideal world no one would use the word c*nt
[quote author=LadyRed link=topic=47188.msg1457004#msg1457004 date=1325783222]
I think my favourite bit about this thread is the way people on here think they know how someone should react after a racial slur is thrown at them, because obviously everyone on here has had lots of experience of it and there is a set proforma that people must follow, and if someone fails to do so they're obviously lying and cannot be trusted!
[/quote]
Does that mean we could have no confidence in white English men judging the matter from the point of view of what the word 'negro' means in Spanish between a Frenchman of African descent and a Uruguayan with mixed race heritage? One says it's a racial slur, the other doesn't.
I think my favourite bit about this thread is the way people on here think they know how someone should react after a racial slur is thrown at them, because obviously everyone on here has had lots of experience of it and there is a set proforma that people must follow, and if someone fails to do so they're obviously lying and cannot be trusted!
[/quote]
Does that mean we could have no confidence in white English men judging the matter from the point of view of what the word 'negro' means in Spanish between a Frenchman of African descent and a Uruguayan with mixed race heritage? One says it's a racial slur, the other doesn't.
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