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The Suarez/Evra Racism Row

Im not too bothered by the actual video to be honest. if he feels its ok to use it to another black person and that black person doesnt object then Im fine with that.

What I do find strange though is the when questioned as to why he told the ref during the game, that he had been called black, but reported to the ref in the ref's room that he had been called n****r, his explanation, which was accepted, was that he felt uncomfortable using the n****r word.
 
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=47188.msg1456811#msg1456811 date=1325770543]
I'm not denying that's how it is. I'm saying that that's scandalous and that quasi-judicial proceedings like those to which Luis Suarez has been subjected should refuse to bow to such double standards.
[/quote]I dont understand your point here JJ. It IS different as you say yourself
I'm not denying that's how it is
so why would you not understand that an FA court sees it as different. Which it as. As you agree.

I halfway agree with you and it pains me to still hear the word at all, but being that it is totally different Evra using it and Suarez using it, it is what it is.
 
Don't take everyone in the Suarez is innocent camp as fucking rascist or an enemy mate, my wifes Black and we had a shit of a time all our married lives through bigotry and fucking hatred.

* Themn
 
[quote author=Asbo link=topic=47188.msg1456816#msg1456816 date=1325770804]
Don't take everyone in the Suarez is innocent camp as fucking rascist or an enemy mate, my wifes Black and we had a shit of a time all our married lives through bigotry and fucking hatred.

* Themn
[/quote]

I don't.
 
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=47188.msg1456815#msg1456815 date=1325770800]
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=47188.msg1456811#msg1456811 date=1325770543]
I'm not denying that's how it is. I'm saying that that's scandalous and that quasi-judicial proceedings like those to which Luis Suarez has been subjected should refuse to bow to such double standards.
[/quote]I dont understand your point here JJ. It IS different as you say yourself
I'm not denying that's how it is
so why would you not understand that an FA court sees it as different. Which it as. As you agree.

I halfway agree with you and it pains me to still hear the word at all, but being that it is totally different Evra using it and Suarez using it, it is what it is.
[/quote]

I don't get what it is that you don't understand, mate. As I think I've already made clear, I understand that it's seen as different and that the FA's commission acted accordingly. What I do not accept is that they were right to do so, because it means there are differing rules for differing groups of people doing the exact same thing - one rule for some, one rule for the rest. How in the name of all that's holy is THAT consistent with anti-discrimination? The man in the street might want to act in such a way, but tribunals which sit in judgment on people should reject such double standards.
 
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=47188.msg1456819#msg1456819 date=1325771103]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=47188.msg1456815#msg1456815 date=1325770800]
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=47188.msg1456811#msg1456811 date=1325770543]
I'm not denying that's how it is. I'm saying that that's scandalous and that quasi-judicial proceedings like those to which Luis Suarez has been subjected should refuse to bow to such double standards.
[/quote]I dont understand your point here JJ. It IS different as you say yourself
I'm not denying that's how it is
so why would you not understand that an FA court sees it as different. Which it as. As you agree.

I halfway agree with you and it pains me to still hear the word at all, but being that it is totally different Evra using it and Suarez using it, it is what it is.
[/quote]

I don't get what it is that you don't understand, mate. As I think I've already made clear, I understand that it's seen as different and that the FA's commission acted accordingly. What I do not accept is that they were right to do so, because it means there are differing rules for differing groups of people doing the exact same thing - one rule for some, one rule for the rest. How in the name of all that's holy is THAT consistent with anti-discrimination? The man in the street might want to act in such a way, but tribunals which sit in judgment on people should reject such double standards.
[/quote]Oh right. I think we just disagree totally again then.
 
[quote author=Asbo link=topic=47188.msg1456816#msg1456816 date=1325770804]
Don't take everyone in the Suarez is innocent camp as fucking rascist or an enemy mate, my wifes Black and we had a shit of a time all our married lives through bigotry and fucking hatred.

* Themn
[/quote]

As a matter of interest, does Mrs.Asbo have a view on the Suarez saga?
 
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=47188.msg1456784#msg1456784 date=1325768319]
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=47188.msg1456728#msg1456728 date=1325764141]
Seriously? I haven't watched the video, and not that I think Evra should be using the word, but it's very different for Evra to use the word than Suarez.
[/quote]

I posted it twice in this thread !! No-one took any notice.
[/quote] That seems to have been a feature of this thread by some individuals. If anyone makes a relevant rational point that does not fit with the counter argument it is ignored.
I made a very pertinent point about legal basics, and the use of the principle "Not only should justice be done; it must be seen to be done.
Clearly by the reaction on here many think it has been done but an equal number don't believe it has been seen to be done.

Sadly in this case racism has been seen to be more important than justice and some people are blinkered by that. If it had not been for democracy and justice persecution would never be addressed, we have a long way to go but have come much further, we are now falling into the hands of the thought police, which is a very dangerous place to let ourselves be found.

regards
 
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=47188.msg1456823#msg1456823 date=1325771420]
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=47188.msg1456784#msg1456784 date=1325768319]
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=47188.msg1456728#msg1456728 date=1325764141]
Seriously? I haven't watched the video, and not that I think Evra should be using the word, but it's very different for Evra to use the word than Suarez.
[/quote]

I posted it twice in this thread !! No-one took any notice.
[/quote] That seems to have been a feature of this thread by some individuals. If anyone makes a relevant rational point that does not fit with the counter argument it is ignored.
I made a very pertinent point about legal basics, and the use of the principle "Not only should justice be done; it must be seen to be done.
Clearly by the reaction on here many think it has been done but an equal number don't believe it has been seen to be done.

Sadly in this case racism has been seen to be more important than justice and some people are blinkered by that. If it had not been for democracy and justice persecution would never be addressed, we have a long way to go but have coke much further, we are now falling into the hands of the thought police, which is a very dangerous place to let ourselves be found.

regards
[/quote]

Excellent summary.
 
[quote author=Jack D Rips link=topic=47188.msg1456814#msg1456814 date=1325770740]
Im not too bothered by the actual video to be honest. if he feels its ok to use it to another black person and that black person doesnt object then Im fine with that.

What I do find strange though is the when questioned as to why he told the ref during the game, that he had been called black, but reported to the ref in the ref's room that he had been called n****r, his explanation, which was accepted, was that he felt uncomfortable using the n****r word.
[/quote]

Could make you think that what he says isn't entirely reliable?

And this business of how, who and when the n word can be used exactly illustrates that cultural nuances should have been taken into account and then common sense used to educate and warn. All we have now is division and further confusion.
 
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=47188.msg1456823#msg1456823 date=1325771420]
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=47188.msg1456784#msg1456784 date=1325768319]
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=47188.msg1456728#msg1456728 date=1325764141]
Seriously? I haven't watched the video, and not that I think Evra should be using the word, but it's very different for Evra to use the word than Suarez.
[/quote]

I posted it twice in this thread !! No-one took any notice.
[/quote] That seems to have been a feature of this thread by some individuals. If anyone makes a relevant rational point that does not fit with the counter argument it is ignored.
I made a very pertinent point about legal basics, and the use of the principle "Not only should justice be done; it must be seen to be done.
Clearly by the reaction on here many think it has been done but an equal number don't believe it has been seen to be done.

Sadly in this case racism has been seen to be more important than justice and some people are blinkered by that. If it had not been for democracy and justice persecution would never be addressed, we have a long way to go but have coke much further, we are now falling into the hands of the thought police, which is a very dangerous place to let ourselves be found.

regards
[/quote]

Indeed. Couldn't agree more.
 
You're missing the point, which is that he lied in his testimony when he said this...

271. When, shortly after the match, he went to see the referee with the manager, Mr Evra
complained that Mr Suarez had said "I don't talk to you because you niggers". Mr Evra
told us that he believed, from the moment he heard Mr Suarez use the word “negro”, that
this meant N****. The Commission asked Mr Evra why, then, did he not tell the referee
that he had been called N****, as opposed to black. Mr Evra's answer was that even when
he pronounced the word "niggers", it was not a word he liked to use.
He added that
maybe it was also because he was speaking in English, that "black" was the English word
in his mind, and he felt he had done enough to complain by telling the referee that he had
been called black.
 
[quote author=monsieurdantes link=topic=47188.msg1456833#msg1456833 date=1325772162]
You're missing the point, which is that he lied in his testimony when he said this...

271. When, shortly after the match, he went to see the referee with the manager, Mr Evra
complained that Mr Suarez had said "I don't talk to you because you niggers". Mr Evra
told us that he believed, from the moment he heard Mr Suarez use the word “negro”, that
this meant N****. The Commission asked Mr Evra why, then, did he not tell the referee
that he had been called N****, as opposed to black. Mr Evra's answer was that even when
he pronounced the word "niggers", it was not a word he liked to use.
He added that
maybe it was also because he was speaking in English, that "black" was the English word
in his mind, and he felt he had done enough to complain by telling the referee that he had
been called black.
[/quote]

After the video it's difficult to give that any credence.
 
207. The courts are accustomed to resolving factual disputes. This does not mean that the task
is always an easy one, often it is not. Nevertheless, in assessing the credibility of a witness,
and the reliability of his evidence, the courts have developed various tests which assist in
this task.

208. There is no authoritative or exhaustive list of these tests, and different judges make
different uses of, and place different emphases on, the available tests. It always has to be
borne in mind that no two cases are identical, and the tests chosen, and the degree of
reliance placed on them, must be appropriate to the particular case. These are largely
matters for the exercise of judgment by the fact-finding tribunal, which in this case is the
Commission.

209. We shall say a little about four of these tests: demeanour, inconsistency, credit and
probability.


210. First, demeanour. We had an opportunity to observe the demeanour of the witnesses, in
particular Mr Evra and Mr Suarez, and from that to judge their credibility. The demeanour
of a witness includes matters such as his conduct, manner, bearing, behaviour, delivery,
and inflexion. They are matters of impression which are not necessarily revealed by
reading a transcript of evidence. However, care should be taken not to place too much
weight on this factor, bearing in mind that giving evidence can be an unnerving
experience (even before a Commission which operates without the full formalities of a
court of law), some witnesses naturally perform better than others in such settings, and
these difficulties can be compounded when giving evidence in a foreign language or
through an interpreter.

211. Secondly, inconsistency. It can be helpful to consider whether there are inconsistencies in
the witness's evidence. Inconsistency can arise in more than one way. First, the witness's
evidence may be inconsistent with what is clearly shown to have occurred, such as in
video footage or in notes taken shortly after the incident. Secondly, the evidence may be
inconsistent with what the witness has previously said about what happened. A witness
whose evidence is inconsistent in one or more ways might be considered unreliable,
depending on the circumstances.

212. Thirdly, the credit of the witness in relation to matters unconnected with the present
dispute might be relevant. The idea here is that if a witness can be shown to have acted
dishonestly or unreliably in one situation, it can be inferred that he is acting dishonestly or
unreliably in another.
The relevance of this factor is contentious, but it can have its uses in
appropriate cases. We mention it here in order to make clear that it has played no part in
our consideration. This is because neither party suggested that it should. Mr McCormick
did not submit that Mr Evra's evidence should be rejected because he had been shown to
be unreliable in making accusations or giving evidence on any other occasion.
Mr Greaney
did not submit that Mr Suarez's evidence should be rejected for the same reason, or
because he had been shown to use insulting language referring to a person's colour on any
other occasion.


213. Fourthly, probability. Another useful test is to ask of the evidence as a whole, or of a
particular part of it: whose account is more probable? It should be remembered that the
improbable can sometimes be true, although such a case might require stronger evidence
before concluding that it is true.

How the fuck did McCormick miss the opportunity to use Evra's previous "unreliable and exaggerated" testimony
 
He missed it, because the paragraphs you just copy pasted were not spoken during the hearing. They were written up afterwards when the commission realised they had to back up their verdict with reasons. So Mr McFuckWit didn't make that submission simply because he wasn't asked to. Perhaps a better lawyer would have anticipated this possibility and made a submission without being prompted. The transcript (or better yet a tape recording) would be the only thing that will show what genuinely took place in the hearing.
 
McFuckWit also made no submissions about demenour, inconsistency or probability, yet the commission decided to use those of their own accord. Why did they not use credit then? Don't answer that it's a rhetorical question.
 
[quote author=monsieurdantes link=topic=47188.msg1456833#msg1456833 date=1325772162]
You're missing the point, which is that he lied in his testimony when he said this...

271. When, shortly after the match, he went to see the referee with the manager, Mr Evra
complained that Mr Suarez had said "I don't talk to you because you niggers". Mr Evra
told us that he believed, from the moment he heard Mr Suarez use the word “negro”, that
this meant N****. The Commission asked Mr Evra why, then, did he not tell the referee
that he had been called N****, as opposed to black. Mr Evra's answer was that even when
he pronounced the word "niggers", it was not a word he liked to use.
He added that
maybe it was also because he was speaking in English, that "black" was the English word
in his mind, and he felt he had done enough to complain by telling the referee that he had
been called black.
[/quote]

At last the connection is made. Now suppose for a minute the very word that Suarez stated he said once to Evra and massively punished and vilified for is used to Evra by his South American colleagues all the time during training and he's never taken offence to it. How would people feel then ?
 
Everyone is getting well carried away with this. It should have been a 4 match ban instead of 8 but our lawyer was a nobhead. Evra should have got a 2 match ban but that got scrubbed under the carpet. Liverpool should have dealt with it all a lot better, briefed the press with the actual story as soon as it was clear Suarez admitted saying something, hired better people, not backed Suarez all the way only to look defeated when the chance for appeal was there - but really - it's only a 4 game issue. It's hardly all gone Troy Davis.
 
Yeah, i'd agree with that.

And it's better to find out now if wwe can cope without (in the transfer window) than toward the end of the season when we're fucked.
 
Now suppose for a minute the very word that Suarez stated he said once to Evra and massively punished and vilified for is used to Evra by his South American colleagues all the time during training and he's never taken offence to it. How would people feel then ?
 
I'd answer, but the way I would feel in your hypothetical situation happens to be exactly the way I feel about things as they stand.
 
That's what Suarez has claimed from day 1, and I chose to believe him and not Evra who's proven to be a liar.
 
In their desire to show the world how anti-racist they are, the FA turned this routine bit of goalmouth argy-bargy into a charade. As the subject of racist language had been mentioned and advanced up the agenda by Sir A. Ferguson for tactical reasons, the FA decided that Suarez must be made an example of, and set up the committee of inquiry with the objective of "trying" Suarez and punishing him heavily. The committee succeeded in this objective by going through the inconclusive video "evidence" with Evra several times and then incorporating Evra's interpretation of events in a 115-page report. The report conned most observers because it appeared to be a forensic analysis of the aforesaid argy-bargy. In fact it was a mere regurgitation of Evra's version of events. The committee even went so far as to remark on what an excellent witness Evra had been, and on how unreliable Suarez had been in that respect.

Justice has been sacrificed on the altar of anti-racism. It has been an appalling episode.
 
And so the media positioning to pardon Terry begins

OllieHoltMirror Oliver Holt



Is calling someone a 'black c....' racist? Spoke to a black player today who said racism is words like 'c..n', n-word, 'w..' etc. Don't know

Hypocrisy. I love the way Gordon Taylor, Oliver Holt and the FA jokers have been piping on about how Suarez needed to be punished for the sake of the "most multicultural" league in the world when the very same people seem incapable of considering the actual cultural nuances of the conversation held in Spanish between Suarez and Evra. THAT, in itself, is as close minded and bigoted as the racism they are claiming needs stamping out. Pure and utter fucking hyprocrisy. As is the FAs retention still of the chairman of Bedfordshire FA who's still employed by the FA after been caught making racist jokes.

Liverpool bringing the game into disrepute? That would require the FA in this country having any decent reputation at all - something they consistently fail at, employ double and convenient standards to and reinforce with constant hypocrisy which will be reinforced when John Terry gets away with what he said even though there's actual tangible evidence. Besides, it's a "reference to colour".
 
From the outside worlds point of view a player has used a word seen to be racist, and admits to it. If they let him off they'd look a lot worse than they do now.

I'm not saying it's most definitely right, but I can see why they'd do it.
 
JimBoardman Jim Boardman
Sky News has been showing the Evra "ni****" video in its sports bulletins this afternoon.
 
Great posts Sunny and Portly.

Yeah, the Evra vid's been on Sky. I wonder whether they'll now mount a campaign to get him punished. No? Didn't think so.
 
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=47188.msg1456913#msg1456913 date=1325778666]
Great posts Sunny and Portly.

Yeah, the Evra vid's been on Sky. I wonder whether they'll now mount a campaign to get him punished. No? Didn't think so.
[/quote]

There's no way they could anyway as it wouldn't have happened under their jurisdiction.
 
OllieHoltMirror Oliver Holt

Is calling someone a 'black c....' racist? Spoke to a black player today who said racism is words like 'c..n', n-word, 'w..' etc. Don't know


whats the w.. word? my vocabulary of racism isn't well stocked

someone should tattoo the spanish translation of black to his forehead
 
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