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The Suarez/Evra Racism Row

[quote author=Rosco link=topic=47188.msg1456695#msg1456695 date=1325760889]
If like me you are addicted to football, then South America is the place to be. During my two years of living and working in Argentina and travelling extensively around the region, the passion and frenzied enthusiasm for the beautiful game was almost infectious.

What was a little harder to stomach however, was the attitude towards race on the playing fields and football stadiums of countries like Argentina and Uruguay.

The statement by Luis Suarez on Tuesday that, "in my country negro is a word we use commonly, a word which doesn't somehow show any lack of respect and is even less a form of abuse," certainly raised a wry smile and brought back some vivid and uncomfortable memories of my time watching football in South America.

From the window of my Buenos Aires flat I could see the imposing outline of La Bombonera, Boca Juniors' home ground, where I was a regular visitor.

With Montevideo a short hop away on the plane, I also frequented matches in the Uruguayan capital. The countries share a similar history and culture.

One of my most vivid memories of attending my first Boca Juniors home match is of standing on the giant, multi-tiered terrace behind the goal where the hardcore, fanatically fervent barra brava fans stand, and being called "negro." I was not quite sure whether to be offended or shocked.

Infuriated at being called "negro" in the stadium and on the streets of Buenos Aires and Montevideo, it was eventually pointed out to me by friends that the word was being used in relation to my then black hair.

In one respect then, Suarez is right. In many countries of South America, those with black hair or dark eyes are often called "negro" and it is not considered offensive. However, what became apparent was that the same word when directed at people of African descent was meant in an offensive way.

Many of my South American friends who used the word regularly in relation to someone's hair would not dare to say it to a black person for fear that it could lead to confrontation.

Compared to Argentina, Uruguay has a sizeable black community. I can distinctly remember attending the Montevideo derby between Nacional and Penarol where a fight broke out in a bar after a football fan called the black waiter "negro". It was not the colour of his hair that was being referred to.

Similarly when teams from countries like Brazil or Colombia, which have large black populations, visited Argentina to play, fans wanting to insult their black players would use the term "negro".

I recall standing in the Estadio Monumental in Buenos Aires, where Colombia had defeated Argentina 5-0 in a World Cup qualifier for the 1994 finals. The mainly black Colombian subs, who spent the match being called "negros" ended up ripping up the bench and throwing pieces of it at the crowd.

In 2010, I was in South Africa with thousands of South Americans at the World Cup and rarely was the word "negro" used in reference to the local population, for fear that it may offend.

In my time following South American football, whenever the word "negro" has been used in relation to a person of African descent it is usually meant to offend and is received that way also. The word remains acceptable so long as it is not used in reference to a black person. And as the debate continues on what Suarez actually meant, there is one thing that we can all agree on: Patrice Evra is black.
http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/premier-league/i-have-lived-in-south-america-and-there-is-no-doubt-that-the-word-negro-is-racist-2980265.html
[/quote]

Selective pieces like that only serve to point up the misunderstanding and nuances caused by different cultures and languages.

You can probably find many other contradictory viewpoints, you would only have had to have listened to Gus Poyet on Talksport to know there is genuine bewilderment.

Safe to say, Suarez has learned a lesson. As he says he has told the commission he won't use the term again.

I note that several people are now saying (including the PFA's Gordon Taylor) that there should be cultural lessons for newcomers. Better late than never.

The whole things been a mess, hopefully some lessons will be learnt.
 
[quote author=jexykrodic link=topic=47188.msg1456723#msg1456723 date=1325763607]
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=47188.msg1456717#msg1456717 date=1325763273]
I've not had a chance to read the thread the last day or so, so apologies if this has been posted:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2082325/Patrice-Evra-N-word-video-youtube.html
[/quote]

Yes I've seen it. It's curious someone so offended by the spanish term 'negro' should use a term much worse himself.
[/quote]

Yep, though I'm sure 'Rosco & Sons' will have some bullshit legal viewpoint prepared to counter that.
 
Seriously? I haven't watched the video, and not that I think Evra should be using the word, but it's very different for Evra to use the word than Suarez.
 
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=47188.msg1456728#msg1456728 date=1325764141]
Seriously? I haven't watched the video, and not that I think Evra should be using the word, but it's very different for Evra to use the word than Suarez.
[/quote]

What?
 
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=47188.msg1456728#msg1456728 date=1325764141]
Seriously? I haven't watched the video, and not that I think Evra should be using the word, but it's very different for Evra to use the word than Suarez.
[/quote]

What about a lad with mixed race heritage from a country with mixed race heritage?

All very confusing and contentious.

Best not to talk on the pitch at all and if allegations are made maintain silence or denial. Let proof be needed rather than be convicted by your own word and candour.
 
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=47188.msg1456733#msg1456733 date=1325764289]
I don't see what's difficult to understand.
[/quote]

If it's offensive, it's offensive. If it's a word you take as derogatory then you don't use it.
 
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=47188.msg1456736#msg1456736 date=1325764451]
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=47188.msg1456733#msg1456733 date=1325764289]
I don't see what's difficult to understand.
[/quote]

If it's offensive, it's offensive. If it's a word you take as derogatory then you don't use it.
[/quote]

Good thing is that the press put the limielight on that there are others than Suarez involved in this case!
 
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=47188.msg1456736#msg1456736 date=1325764451]
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=47188.msg1456733#msg1456733 date=1325764289]
I don't see what's difficult to understand.
[/quote]

If it's offensive, it's offensive. If it's a word you take as derogatory then you don't use it.
[/quote]

A gay man can call another gay man a bender without being homophobic, I'm not a fan of races or minorities "taking back their own words", but there's still a big difference between someone else using it, in the way that it looks like Suarez did(to wind him up).
 
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=47188.msg1456725#msg1456725 date=1325763993]
[quote author=jexykrodic link=topic=47188.msg1456723#msg1456723 date=1325763607]
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=47188.msg1456717#msg1456717 date=1325763273]
I've not had a chance to read the thread the last day or so, so apologies if this has been posted:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2082325/Patrice-Evra-N-word-video-youtube.html
[/quote]

Yes I've seen it. It's curious someone so offended by the spanish term 'negro' should use a term much worse himself.
[/quote]

Yep, though I'm sure 'Rosco & Sons' will have some bullshit legal viewpoint prepared to counter that.
[/quote]

Because someone doesn't agree with you, it doesn't make it 'bullshit'. This is an extremely subjective case, as you well know.
 
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=47188.msg1456739#msg1456739 date=1325764595]
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=47188.msg1456725#msg1456725 date=1325763993]
[quote author=jexykrodic link=topic=47188.msg1456723#msg1456723 date=1325763607]
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=47188.msg1456717#msg1456717 date=1325763273]
I've not had a chance to read the thread the last day or so, so apologies if this has been posted:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2082325/Patrice-Evra-N-word-video-youtube.html
[/quote]

Yes I've seen it. It's curious someone so offended by the spanish term 'negro' should use a term much worse himself.
[/quote]

Yep, though I'm sure 'Rosco & Sons' will have some bullshit legal viewpoint prepared to counter that.
[/quote]

Because someone doesn't agree with you, it doesn't make it 'bullshit'. This is an extremely subjective case, as you well know.
[/quote]

That's entirely why the whole business now has a life of it's own. It could have been handled without commissions, reports, bans and fines and common sense used to educate and warn. Both parties used abusive terms and should have warned of their conduct, a more even-handed approach would've been appropriate.
 

[size=12pt]Kick It Out: Allegations should be proven “beyond reasonable doubt”[/[/size]b]

January 5, 2012 by Jim Boardman

Jim Boardman
When Liverpool announced they were not going to appeal the Luis Suárez verdict they did so after coming under a huge weight of pressure from various individuals and organisations. One of Liverpool’s main objections to the decision was the way it was reached and in particular the burden of proof considered adequate. It would seem that the FA’s standard also falls short of what Kick It Out, the anti-discrimination group that works so closely with English clubs, would expect.

Some of the pressure Liverpool came under not to appeal appeared on the Kick It Out website earlier in the week when they ran a story referring to comments made by Football Against Racism in Europe (FARE):


Piara Powar, executive director of the group, says Liverpool risk further damage to their global reputation if they appeal the suspension.

He said: “Luis Suarez and Liverpool FC have the right to appeal, however we would call on the club to think again about their public campaign to dispute the charges and contest the principles involved in the case.

“As a club with a good international standing, the vehemence of their campaign is unquestionably causing them reputational harm.”

On Tuesday night Liverpool announced their decision not to appeal, a decision that was commended by the Chair of Kick It Out, Lord Herman Ouseley:


“We commend Liverpool FC in bringing closure to this matter, reaffirming its commitment to an unequivocal, zero-tolerance approach towards discrimination in football.“The club can now move on from this period, showing leadership in how it demonstrates and communicates this stance to players and fans alike.

“We look forward to working on the next level of Kick It Out’s Equality Standard framework closely with the club.”

However the closure Lord Ouseley referred to is still some way from being reached. Liverpool are still angry at what they see as an injustice and briefed the media yesterday to clarify some of the reasons they feel this way.

Those reasons include questions about how the panel came to its decision on the credibility of Evra, Suárez and others as well as the decision to allow Evra’s FA interview to be conducted with the aid of video footage, something they did not offer to Suárez when he was interviewed, leading to suggestions that Evra was ‘coached’ by the FA when preparing his evidence. There is also a question mark over the FA’s decision not to charge Evra for using threatening words towards Suárez and their refusal to explain why they haven’t charged the player, who admitted to using the words.

One key issue for Liverpool is the burden of proof the panel relied on in making their decision. The report said: “It is for the FA to satisfy us on the balance of probability that Mr Suárez breached the Rules.” The club contend that for such a serious allegation that this is too weak a standard. The knock-on effect to Suárez’s reputation and career goes far beyond the FA’s eight-match ban and there should not have been any reasonable doubt about that verdict.

And, it would seem, Kick It Out feel the same. In an email from Kick It Out sent shortly after Suárez was charged a spokesperson told Anfield Road that “the investigative process… should confirm beyond reasonable doubt that the allegation is proven.”

This of course didn’t happen and the case was proven based on a number of contentious assumptions that came nowhere near to dispelling reasonable doubts. It is those reasonable doubts that are causing so much anger for Liverpool and for many of its supporters.




When Suárez was charged, in November, an article appeared in The Independent with quotes from an unnamed spokesman for Kick It Out. The article claimed:


“Luis Suarez has only himself to blame for the racism charge he now faces because he failed to apologise for, or personally explain, the Spanish slang which he claims has been the cause of the anger felt by Manchester United’s Patrice Evra, the Kick it Out organisation said last night.”

The article then quoted the unnamed spokesman:


“It would appear that Patrice Evra had no other option than to lodge a complaint in the absence of an apology or any sort of explanation. The process has begun and we await the outcome.”

At the time it was already well publicised that Suárez didn’t think he’d said anything offensive and that he had in fact used a word that Evra’s own team-mates use for him, a claim yet to be denied by Evra, his club or the team-mates in question. Evra’s initial allegation was that Suárez had used the word “ni***r”, an allegation he later backed down from.




In the light of the comments in The Independent we asked Kick It Out if they treated discrimination and abuse based on nationality and cultural background the same as they would if it was based on race. We also asked them to confirm if the wording attributed to the organisation but not in quotes had also come from them. Danny Lynch, from Kick It Out’s Media and Communications, said:


“As an organisation, we’re against discrimination and support any group or individual on the receiving end of it, whether it’s based on race, nationality, sexuality or anything else perceived to be the reason for the sleight.


“With regard to this incident, everyone concerned is still awaiting the verdict. In all of our related media statements, we haven’t alluded to or insinuated guilt from any quarter and this includes The Independent article which you have rightly flagged up. What we have said, however, is that matters should be reported instantly or as soon as possible to the referee for him or her to take action and that the investigative process following this should confirm beyond reasonable doubt that the allegation is proven.


“We’ve worked with Liverpool for a number of years, particularly the community team, which is very proactive in promoting equality issues to the clubs fanbase. Kick It Out was involved in disability focussed day during the campaign’s One Game, One Community weeks of action in October.”

It seems clear that The FA’s regulations have failed to even meet the standards required by those concerned with the eradication of discrimination from football, standards that seem to be quite reasonable to expect. It’s too late to change the Suárez decision but the FA must, as a matter of urgency, review its procedures and regulations to ensure that they work.

Despite media and campaigner attempts to attack the credibility of Liverpool over this case it is the credibility of The FA that should be under attack and should remain under attack until they address the valid concerns raised by Liverpool, Luis Suárez and many other observers.
 
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=47188.msg1456739#msg1456739 date=1325764595]
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=47188.msg1456725#msg1456725 date=1325763993]
[quote author=jexykrodic link=topic=47188.msg1456723#msg1456723 date=1325763607]
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=47188.msg1456717#msg1456717 date=1325763273]
I've not had a chance to read the thread the last day or so, so apologies if this has been posted:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2082325/Patrice-Evra-N-word-video-youtube.html
[/quote]

Yes I've seen it. It's curious someone so offended by the spanish term 'negro' should use a term much worse himself.
[/quote]

Yep, though I'm sure 'Rosco & Sons' will have some bullshit legal viewpoint prepared to counter that.
[/quote]

Because someone doesn't agree with you, it doesn't make it 'bullshit'. This is an extremely subjective case, as you well know.
[/quote]

Absolutely! But that works from both viewpoints.
 
How can the Kick it Out be worried about the case not showing 'Proof beyond reasonable doubt' yet this Lord Osley prick keep harping on about how shit Liverpool are for supporting Suarez and calling his apology a disgrace?
 
[quote author=Asbo link=topic=47188.msg1456765#msg1456765 date=1325767489]
How can the Kick it Out be worried about the case not showing 'Proof beyond reasonable doubt' yet this Lord Osley prick keep harping on about how shit Liverpool are for supporting Suarez and calling his apology a disgrace?
[/quote]

I think that was Biaffra Power or something
 
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=47188.msg1456728#msg1456728 date=1325764141]
Seriously? I haven't watched the video, and not that I think Evra should be using the word, but it's very different for Evra to use the word than Suarez.
[/quote]

I posted it twice in this thread !! No-one took any notice.
 
[quote author=Asbo link=topic=47188.msg1456765#msg1456765 date=1325767489]
How can the Kick it Out be worried about the case not showing 'Proof beyond reasonable doubt' yet this Lord Osley prick keep harping on about how shit Liverpool are for supporting Suarez and calling his apology a disgrace?
[/quote]

Remember when you dismissed Annie Eavis's apology the other day ?

Maybe, it's a bit like that.
 
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=47188.msg1456736#msg1456736 date=1325764451]
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=47188.msg1456733#msg1456733 date=1325764289]
I don't see what's difficult to understand.
[/quote]

If it's offensive, it's offensive. If it's a word you take as derogatory then you don't use it.
[/quote]

Exactly. Luis Suarez gets penalised because he's told he couldn't argue on cultural grounds that he meant the "n" word differently. Evra on the other hand gets a free pass for using it on the exact same basis.

It. Stinks.
 
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=47188.msg1456784#msg1456784 date=1325768319]
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=47188.msg1456728#msg1456728 date=1325764141]
Seriously? I haven't watched the video, and not that I think Evra should be using the word, but it's very different for Evra to use the word than Suarez.
[/quote]

I posted it twice in this thread !! No-one took any notice.
[/quote]

Calm down Sunny. I did take notice and watched it when you originally posted it! 😉
 
[quote author=themn link=topic=47188.msg1456787#msg1456787 date=1325768540]
[quote author=Asbo link=topic=47188.msg1456765#msg1456765 date=1325767489]
How can the Kick it Out be worried about the case not showing 'Proof beyond reasonable doubt' yet this Lord Osley prick keep harping on about how shit Liverpool are for supporting Suarez and calling his apology a disgrace?
[/quote]

Remember when you dismissed Annie Eavis's apology the other day ?

Maybe, it's a bit like that.
[/quote]

I don't even know who Annie Eavis is? remind me?
 
That "Mirror" hack who put up a tweet mithering about the use of the word "ManUre" as some kind of reference to Munich.
 
But it is nothing like that, the organisation he led say they want proof beyond reasonable doubt, which hasn't happened, yet he is conducting a witch hunt despite this.

Also I am a fucking pensioner with no authority and no public standing and he is a Lord of the Realm, with a huge public sway, so how is it even fucking remotley like that?
 
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=47188.msg1456796#msg1456796 date=1325769416]
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=47188.msg1456736#msg1456736 date=1325764451]
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=47188.msg1456733#msg1456733 date=1325764289]
I don't see what's difficult to understand.
[/quote]

If it's offensive, it's offensive. If it's a word you take as derogatory then you don't use it.
[/quote]

Exactly. Luis Suarez gets penalised because he's told he couldn't argue on cultural grounds that he meant the "n" word differently. Evra on the other hand gets a free pass for using it on the exact same basis.

It. Stinks.
[/quote]Im not getting drawn into this debate again. But a black man using the word is totally different than a white man using it to a black man.
In an ideal world no one would use it, but when you have everyone from Richard Pryor to Jay-Z using it in a bid to 'reclaim' the word (although Pryor changed his stance and regretted it later In "Pryor Convictions," Pryor said that he left Africa "regretting ever having uttered the word 'nigger' on a stage or off it. It was a wretched word. Its connotations weren't funny, even when people laughed. To this day I wish I'd never said the word. I felt its lameness. It was misunderstood by people. They didn't get what I was talking about. Neither did I. ... So I vowed never to say it again.&quot😉 or as slang or whatever its hardly likely to dissappear. But to be absolutely clear (and JJ im not trying to be an arse but im guessing you havnt really invloved yourself much in urban culture - in particular from America) it is TOTALLY different a black man using it.
Like I said, ideally it wouldnt be. But it is. And to deny that is a bit ridiculous.
 
I'm not denying that's how it is. I'm saying that that's scandalous and that quasi-judicial proceedings like those to which Luis Suarez has been subjected should refuse to bow to such double standards.
 
[quote author=Asbo link=topic=47188.msg1456808#msg1456808 date=1325770337]
But it is nothing like that, the organisation he led say they want proof beyond reasonable doubt, which hasn't happened, yet he is conducting a witch hunt despite this.

Also I am a fucking pensioner with no authority and no public standing and he is a Lord of the Realm, with a huge public sway, so how is it even fucking remotley like that?
[/quote]

Fucking lol.
 
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