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The Suarez/Evra Racism Row

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[quote author=Sunny link=topic=47188.msg1456974#msg1456974 date=1325782157]
[quote author=LadyRed link=topic=47188.msg1#msg1 date=1325781565]
[quote author=Loch Ness Monster link=topic=47188.msg1456950#msg1456950 date=1325781105]
[quote author=LadyRed link=topic=47188.msg1456930#msg1456930 date=1325780271]
You found it strange that a black man was uncomfortable using the N word to a group of white men. Riiiight.


Mystic- I personally hate the use of the term, including when black people use it, but to suggest the context for a black person using it is the same as a white person using it is ridiculous
[/quote]

Are you suggesting Neets that there are different groups of society that have cultural reasons which make it acceptable to use an 'N' word? Because surely that is how the whole problem began, and the FA seem to think that isd not possible.
[/quote]

Nessy, it's like someone from Manchester sitting with a bunch of fellow mancs and making nasty joke about people from Liverpool not having jobs and nicking wheel caps or whatever, and saying that's the same as a scouser making jokes about Liverpool. It isn't.

Honestly if people on the forum fail to understand that a black person using the N word has a completely different contextual framework, socially and historically, I really don't know what to say.


Again, like I said, I don't like the use of the word from anyone, but I would never be ignorant enough to think a white person using it is the same as a black person using it; I really can't articulate it beyond it's plain stupid.
[/quote]


So a black person using that word is Ok because it has a different social and historical framework but that rule does not apply to a Latin American using a word which, for him, has a similar framework ?
[/quote]
There it is, nail on the head. Different cultures, different things are acceptable. That has always been Suarez' defence, it is acceptable in his native tongue and country. Plus, as Jack D stated, how can a panel of Englishmen judge what is culturally acceptable to a French man of African origin by a Uruguayan
in a language that they know nothing about.
I am glad I wasn't on the panel, massive hot potato, but I don't think they have been transparent fair and independent in this case. I am not surprised with the verdict but I guess if you play with fire as Suarez did, you should expect to get burnt.
 
Everyone is assuming Saurez, the person supposed to have committed the racist act is telling the whole truth, and Evra is a total liar.

It's very admirable of people to do this, I just don't think I can.
 
I am a firm believer in giving people the benefit of the doubt unless there is conclusive proof. On this occasion, it proved simple to believe Suarez as without his statement there would be zero evidence at all and the charge probably would have not been brought against him. Once he admitted saying something, he effectively shot himself in the foot and it was easy for the FA to manipulate an enquiry to convict.
If I were alleged to have made comments, and I had, I would have lied to cover myself. Made the FA prove the allegations rather than hand it to them on a plate.
 
Based on the fact that the club have asked FA to go through their processes and avoid misjudgement in the future they are clearly not happy with what happened. They also want to know if FA would allow people that have been charged to challenge the verdict outside the FA system. Also the fact that they disagree that FA are to put together the comittee who should charge a person on FAs behalf makes it all to not be an independent and fair hearing.
 
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=47188.msg1457061#msg1457061 date=1325789842]
Everyone is assuming Saurez, the person supposed to have committed the racist act is telling the whole truth, and Evra is a total liar.

It's very admirable of people to do this, I just don't think I can.
[/quote]

I doubt if anyone wholly believes either parties recall of events.

We are all making assumptions, especially the FA, which is no way to decide a matter as serious as this.

There is nothing very admirable about any of it.

There should be cultural education in future.
 
[quote author=vantage link=topic=47188.msg1457051#msg1457051 date=1325788714]
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=47188.msg1457050#msg1457050 date=1325788305]
[quote author=vantage link=topic=47188.msg1457043#msg1457043 date=1325787218]
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=47188.msg1457040#msg1457040 date=1325786597]
It allows you to see that white people going around England calling black people "negros" is a bit wrong.
[/quote]

FFS, he didn't call anyone a negro.......
[/quote]

If you believe every word he says, but if you believe Evra, he said a lot more things more offensive than that. I'm not surprised people want to believe Suarez, I'd like to too, but the evidence points to Suarez not being totally honest.
[/quote]

I give up. He admitted calling Evra "negro" not "a negro". Which, according to Suarez is what his team-mates call him in training........
[/quote]

Actually he called Evra black which is the translation from Spanish.
 
[quote author=Loch Ness Monster link=topic=47188.msg1457063#msg1457063 date=1325790809]
I am a firm believer in giving people the benefit of the doubt unless there is conclusive proof. On this occasion, it proved simple to believe Suarez as without his statement there would be zero evidence at all and the charge probably would have not been brought against him. Once he admitted saying something, he effectively shot himself in the foot and it was easy for the FA to manipulate an enquiry to convict.
If I were alleged to have made comments, and I had, I would have lied to cover myself. Made the FA prove the allegations rather than hand it to them on a plate.
[/quote]

And you're entitled to believe who you want to believe.

If Suarez's account is accurate, then he was harshly treated. But the FA chose to believe the man who was more sure of the story and the story that matched up best with the video account of the incidents. I find it strange that people can't see that Evra's account is the more plausible of the two, although we still probably don't have the whole story of events, and I'm sure the FA probably wrote the report to favour their findings.
 
Anybody been on Ollie Holt's twitter in the last few hours? The man who co-wrote Terry's book is now saying that calling someone a black c**t is not racist.............
 
Evra's account was given after having an opportunity to talk the FA through the video and being given FOUR goes at editing his statement. Suarez never got any of that. He was ambushed. Against that background there's no way of telling which account was "more plausible".
 
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=47188.msg1457098#msg1457098 date=1325795729]
Evra's account was given after having an opportunity to talk the FA through the video and being given FOUR goes at editing his statement. Suarez never got any of that. He was ambushed.
[/quote]

I don't get Gerry's stance here ...

Evra - fluent in English - discussed what happened 4 times, with video next to him ... changed 'negro' call from 10 times to 7 times (no one heard any of them, Suarez said he said it once)
Suarez - struggles with english - discussed what happened once, with no video ...

Yes, I can't see why things would work out the way they did.

Odd how 4 man u teammates all had different version of the event - having all heard it from Evra. I guess his story was far far more believable.

That being said, it's over. We'll come out of this. It's not the first time the media and football world have tried to hurt the club.
 
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=47188.msg1457098#msg1457098 date=1325795729]
Evra's account was given after having an opportunity to talk the FA through the video and being given FOUR goes at editing his statement. Suarez never got any of that. He was ambushed. Against that background there's no way of telling which account was "more plausible".
[/quote]

In a nutshell.

And yet I haven't seen that reported accurately in a single tabloid or broadsheet. It's like many people just want to discount this most obvious of flaws in the process in the rush to condemn Suarez.
 
...and cover themselves in reflected anti-racism kudos. As Portly rightly said earlier, justice has taken a back seat in all of this.
 
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=47188.msg1457094#msg1457094 date=1325795317]
[quote author=Loch Ness Monster link=topic=47188.msg1457063#msg1457063 date=1325790809]
I am a firm believer in giving people the benefit of the doubt unless there is conclusive proof. On this occasion, it proved simple to believe Suarez as without his statement there would be zero evidence at all and the charge probably would have not been brought against him. Once he admitted saying something, he effectively shot himself in the foot and it was easy for the FA to manipulate an enquiry to convict.
If I were alleged to have made comments, and I had, I would have lied to cover myself. Made the FA prove the allegations rather than hand it to them on a plate.
[/quote]

And you're entitled to believe who you want to believe.

If Suarez's account is accurate, then he was harshly treated. But the FA chose to believe the man who was more sure of the story and the story that matched up best with the video account of the incidents. I find it strange that people can't see that Evra's account is the more plausible of the two, although we still probably don't have the whole story of events, and I'm sure the FA probably wrote the report to favour their findings.
[/quote]

I don't find Evra's account more plausible because it is laced with actual demonstrable inaccuracies. Suarez's account isn't. To begin with he accused Suarez of saying n*88*r, something he conceded later Suarez probably didn't say. He was also flying of the handle before the Suarez incident, and was clearly acting in a volatile way. Furthermore he accused the ref of being a racist, don't forget. Do you accept his thinking on this issue? Yeah, he comes across as completely plausible.

I think it is perfectly plausible that he had misheard Suarez on the occasion we know he said negro, and was been fuming since that, perhaps thinking Suarez has dropped the N-bomb.

It is also very clear the FA have been heavily influenced by Suarez pinching Evra's skin.

For someone looking for racism this can only be a racist action, as Suarez pinches the very skin he is using as a weapon against his opponent. Here is the proof! OK, the words coming from his mouth don't seem to match that account, but never mind- HE PINCHED THE SKIN OF A BLACK MAN!

There's a great quote in reference to this that escapes me- basically it says that the researcher inevitably finds evidence that supports a position they had previously come to believe through other means. That is, the evidence is not deliberately fabricated or misread, it is just inevitable it will be read in ways that fit the preconceptions of the 'researchers'. So it goes here.

Anyone who saw Suarez pulling the hair of Nani might draw another conclusion. Did he pull Nani's hair because it is different to his own? Was it a racially motivated tug? Or did he do it in an attempt to wind him up? He's a wee cunt, granted, but I seriously doubt the pinch was some reference to skin colour. Unfortunately, it fitted too well with the argument that he had been making racial references. It was the clincher for the FA panel, the fulcrum for them to make other pieces of the jigsaw fit.
 
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=47188.msg1457111#msg1457111 date=1325796805]
...and cover themselves in reflected anti-racism kudos. As Portly rightly said earlier, justice has taken a back seat in all of this.
[/quote]

Justice, in my opinion, was partially served. He was banned b/c he did say something that Evra did take offense to (no matter the reason), and is offensive in England. He deserved a ban for this. That it was so harsh, or the repercussions of this on the player, the club, its fans etc, is the side effect. But partial justice there was.
 
[quote author=SaintGeorge67 link=topic=47188.msg1457118#msg1457118 date=1325797139]
I used to like Oliver Holt until he decided his opinions were facts.

What did the tweet say?
[/quote]

Something about him knowing black players who don't consider the word 'black' racist.
 
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=47188.msg1457117#msg1457117 date=1325797119]
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=47188.msg1457111#msg1457111 date=1325796805]
...and cover themselves in reflected anti-racism kudos. As Portly rightly said earlier, justice has taken a back seat in all of this.
[/quote]

Justice, in my opinion, was partially served. He was banned b/c he did say something that Evra did take offense to (no matter the reason), and is offensive in England. He deserved a ban for this. That it was so harsh, or the repercussions of this on the player, the club, its fans etc, is the side effect. But partial justice there was.
[/quote]

Disagree. The process which led to the ban was riddled with holes, and frankly there's more than a little doubt about how genuine Evra's "taking offence" was in the first place, when you consider he told French TV initially that it was no big deal.
 
[quote author=themn link=topic=47188.msg1457048#msg1457048 date=1325787508]
This *must* be the longest thread in the site's history ?

And absolutely no TITTAYS !

*smh*
[/quote]

Not even close

LFC SOLD to NESV - 6368
Last Movie You Saw - 5507
6 Crazy Minutes Xpert 11 League (SFW) - 4536
Torres gone. Scum gone to more scum - 4174
Random Picture Thread (Probably offensive, sexist, NSFW and a bit racial) - 3888
The Suarez/Evra Racism Row - 3884
The incredible Xabi Alonso thread 2009 - 3615
Suarez SIGNED. Welcome to Liverpool Luis - 2854
Name the City - 2844
What are you reading now? - 2791

http://www.sixcrazyminutes.com/forums/index.php?action=stats
 
[quote author=25_05_05 link=topic=47188.msg1457097#msg1457097 date=1325795683]
Anybody been on Ollie Holt's twitter in the last few hours? The man who co-wrote Terry's book is now saying that calling someone a black c**t is not racist.............
[/quote]


Where exactly did he say that?? Please do tell me
 
it was riddled was holes but the fact is this:

Suarez said a term, that is culturally ok in his homeland, BUT offensive to many (pending to whom it's said) in England. He said it once, by his own words.

Hence, despite the process, he did something that is wrong and a ban is fair.

I think both player, and club, will come out of this far far stronger.
 
[quote author=25_05_05 link=topic=47188.msg1457127#msg1457127 date=1325797376]
[quote author=SaintGeorge67 link=topic=47188.msg1457118#msg1457118 date=1325797139]
I used to like Oliver Holt until he decided his opinions were facts.

What did the tweet say?
[/quote]

Something about him knowing black players who don't consider the word 'black' racist.
[/quote]

So where did he say it's not racist?
 
[quote author=Atlas link=topic=47188.msg1457133#msg1457133 date=1325797554]
[quote author=25_05_05 link=topic=47188.msg1457127#msg1457127 date=1325797376]
[quote author=SaintGeorge67 link=topic=47188.msg1457118#msg1457118 date=1325797139]
I used to like Oliver Holt until he decided his opinions were facts.

What did the tweet say?
[/quote]

Something about him knowing black players who don't consider the word 'black' racist.
[/quote]

So where did he say it's not racist?

http://p.twimg.com/AiaKdN6CAAAVW-R.png:large
[/quote]
 
I had a conversation with myself in the shower about why I make certain decisions based upon race. I know with scientific certainty there is no such thing as race apart from the human race. Yet I don't follow up on that. Specifically I'm walking down the street. Up ahead I see a group harmless looking asians holding ice creams. So I'm gonna carry on with my business, and maybe point to the one fat asian kid and advise him to not be tucking into ice creams so much. But if up ahead I see a group of black kids with hoodies and chains, then the first thing I'm trying to work out is how to cross the road without them noticing. It's very clearly a racist thing to do.

I think it's like this. I have no reason to be racist. But I do have reason to believe other people are racist. And by virtue of the way those other people treated those black kids before I turned up, they're going to have a certain attitude and anger issues. So whether or not I believe in the idea of racism, I'm not going to idiotically assume it applies in the rest of the world. After all I'd rather be a healthy racist, than a kick the living shit out of me pacifist. But then you extend that line of reasoning to a boss interviewing someone for a job or a position at university. His life is not in danger like mine was. But what's going through his mind? He's thinking oh I'm not a racist, I like black people...... but I have no faith that this kids teachers, and his upbringing and education and all the rest haven't been denied to him by the actions of other racists. So I have to make a common sense choice here and give the position to the asian kid instead. Not my fault.... I blame the society which on the balance of probabilities denied him a fair shot at things.

Racism is about people being paranoid about the members of their own supposed race. So you have to model it like an economist by using game theory.
 
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=47188.msg1457132#msg1457132 date=1325797530]
it was riddled was holes but the fact is this:

Suarez said a term, that is culturally ok in his homeland, BUT offensive to many (pending to whom it's said) in England. He said it once, by his own words.

Hence, despite the process, he did something that is wrong and a ban is fair.

I think both player, and club, will come out of this far far stronger.
[/quote]

Why are you so xenophobic? Are the English morally superior to other cultures? Because from the outside it sure looks that way.
 
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=47188.msg1457132#msg1457132 date=1325797530]
it was riddled was holes but the fact is this:

Suarez said a term, that is culturally ok in his homeland, BUT offensive to many (pending to whom it's said) in England. He said it once, by his own words.

Hence, despite the process, he did something that is wrong and a ban is fair.

I think both player, and club, will come out of this far far stronger.
[/quote]

The process is an integral part of the whole thing and can't meaningfully be separated from the outcome in that way. Justice doesn't just have to be done - it has to be seen to be done. By any proper standards that has not happened in this case.

I hope you're right about the last bit. Time will tell.
 
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=47188.msg1457132#msg1457132 date=1325797530]
it was riddled was holes but the fact is this:

Suarez said a term, that is culturally ok in his homeland, BUT offensive to many (pending to whom it's said) in England. He said it once, by his own words.

Hence, despite the process, he did something that is wrong and a ban is fair.

I think both player, and club, will come out of this far far stronger.
[/quote]

A ban for both players would have been fair. Level playing field, and all that.
 
[quote author=Entropy63 link=topic=47188.msg1457140#msg1457140 date=1325797923]
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=47188.msg1457132#msg1457132 date=1325797530]
it was riddled was holes but the fact is this:

Suarez said a term, that is culturally ok in his homeland, BUT offensive to many (pending to whom it's said) in England. He said it once, by his own words.

Hence, despite the process, he did something that is wrong and a ban is fair.

I think both player, and club, will come out of this far far stronger.
[/quote]

Why are you so xenophobic? Are the English morally superior to other cultures? Because from the outside it sure looks that way.
[/quote]

The English are probably morally inferior than many cultures by the way. Some of them just like to feel superior. And some of those Irish cunts too. As for those Israeli wankers.....
 
[quote author=livvy185 link=topic=47188.msg1456923#msg1456923 date=1325779630]
[quote author=Markeh link=topic=47188.msg1456917#msg1456917 date=1325778951]
OllieHoltMirror Oliver Holt

Is calling someone a 'black c....' racist? Spoke to a black player today who said racism is words like 'c..n', n-word, 'w..' etc. Don't know
Click to expand...


whats the w.. word? my vocabulary of racism isn't well stocked

someone should tattoo the spanish translation of black to his forehead


[/quote]

rhymes with log


Horrible word
[/quote]

ahhhh that's an old one, thanks
 
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