The Suarez/Evra Racism Row

[monsieurdantes]

[quote author=LadyRed link=topic=47188.msg1457005#msg1457005 date=1325783386]
Sunny I wouldn't go round branding the N word ever, nor would I feel it's my right to tell a black person what they should and shouldn't find offensive.

That said, I'm confident it's a culture and community I'm much more familiar with than many others on here.
[/quote]

What if you shared everything about their culture and community. For example if you were adopted by a black family so grew up in that culture. Then think about what your position would be. Would you feel it was ok for you to use the n word, or not? Those are the kinds of questions scientist ask in order to understand something better.

 

[themn]

Return of the Farting Jedi (who Farts)

 

[Woland]

[quote author=monsieurdantes link=topic=47188.msg1457010#msg1457010 date=1325783752]
[quote author=LadyRed link=topic=47188.msg1457005#msg1457005 date=1325783386]
Sunny I wouldn't go round branding the N word ever, nor would I feel it's my right to tell a black person what they should and shouldn't find offensive.

That said, I'm confident it's a culture and community I'm much more familiar with than many others on here.
[/quote]

What if you shared everything about their culture and community. For example if you were adopted by a black family so grew up in that culture. Then think about what your position would be. Would you feel it was ok for you to use the n word, or not? Those are the kinds of questions scientist ask in order to understand something better.
[/quote]

It's still subjective and would still depend on who this person was with, like it does for black people. It's not like every black person goes round dropping the N bomb all day, it's a minority within the minority.

 

[monsieurdantes]

[quote author=Woland link=topic=47188.msg1457012#msg1457012 date=1325784034]
[quote author=monsieurdantes link=topic=47188.msg1457010#msg1457010 date=1325783752]
[quote author=LadyRed link=topic=47188.msg1457005#msg1457005 date=1325783386]
Sunny I wouldn't go round branding the N word ever, nor would I feel it's my right to tell a black person what they should and shouldn't find offensive.

That said, I'm confident it's a culture and community I'm much more familiar with than many others on here.
[/quote]

What if you shared everything about their culture and community. For example if you were adopted by a black family so grew up in that culture. Then think about what your position would be. Would you feel it was ok for you to use the n word, or not? Those are the kinds of questions scientist ask in order to understand something better.
[/quote]

It's still subjective and would still depend on who this person was with, like it does for black people. It's not like every black person goes round dropping the N bomb all day, it's a minority within the minority.
[/quote]

did you say dropping the bomb because you just saw themn's video?

 

[Jack D Rips]

[quote author=LadyRed link=topic=47188.msg1456992#msg1456992 date=1325782762]
[quote author=Jack D Rips link=topic=47188.msg1456976#msg1456976 date=1325782299]
[quote author=jexykrodic link=topic=47188.msg1456966#msg1456966 date=1325781830]
[quote author=LadyRed link=topic=47188.msg1456926#msg1456926 date=1325779696]
I don't understand what the deal is with this Evra video?

Are people really gonna start justifying white people using the N word is okay cos some black people use it? Is that what we're doing now?
[/quote]

The deal is that if you change your allegation from being called a n***** to 'negro' because the former is such a horrible word you can't even bring yourself to use it when reporting it to the referee, then the video puts the lie to that. It might seem to make his statements 'unreliable'.
[/quote]

Anita thinks he could have told the referee that he had been called black, instead of n***r, because he was in a group of white men. Im not convinced myself
[/quote]

Yeah well done jackass, that's exactly what I said
[/quote]

Ok Anita I see now that you meant he would be uncomfortable saying it to the commission. However you still missed the point. He told the referee during the game that he had been called black. He told the referee and Phil Dowd after the match that he had been called a n****r. When questioned by the commission why he hadnt told the referee on the pitch he claimed that he was uncomfortable with the word. i.e uncomfortable using the word to the referee on the pitch. Anyway as I agreed earlier the video isnt something that would have changed the verdict. It just give the lie to his explanatio

And there isnt really any need for name calling. You're better than that.

 

[Woland]

[quote author=monsieurdantes link=topic=47188.msg1457014#msg1457014 date=1325784139]
[quote author=Woland link=topic=47188.msg1457012#msg1457012 date=1325784034]
[quote author=monsieurdantes link=topic=47188.msg1457010#msg1457010 date=1325783752]
[quote author=LadyRed link=topic=47188.msg1457005#msg1457005 date=1325783386]
Sunny I wouldn't go round branding the N word ever, nor would I feel it's my right to tell a black person what they should and shouldn't find offensive.

That said, I'm confident it's a culture and community I'm much more familiar with than many others on here.
[/quote]

What if you shared everything about their culture and community. For example if you were adopted by a black family so grew up in that culture. Then think about what your position would be. Would you feel it was ok for you to use the n word, or not? Those are the kinds of questions scientist ask in order to understand something better.
[/quote]

It's still subjective and would still depend on who this person was with, like it does for black people. It's not like every black person goes round dropping the N bomb all day, it's a minority within the minority.
[/quote]

did you say dropping the bomb because you just saw themn's video?
[/quote]

I didn't watch the vid, it's a turn of phrase. Anyways, with you being brought up by a family ZX81s, how do you feel when someone calls you a motherboarder?

 

[Judge Jules]

[quote author=monsieurdantes link=topic=47188.msg1456998#msg1456998 date=1325782947]
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=47188.msg1456980#msg1456980 date=1325782454]
On the contrary, dantes, I'm arguing what I've argued - alongside you - all along. Suarez was speaking Spanish. In that context "negro" is not an insult. One of the fundamental injustices in this case is that he's been judged as though he were speaking English, the assumption which underlies your post above.
[/quote]

Yep, so the law on what is and is not racist must be subjective, when it comes to language used. It should also be subjective upon the person using the words, the country they are used in, the tone of voice etc etc etc. There's a practical limit upon the number of factors the law can consider of course.

What I (sunny and loch ness) are confused about is how on one hand for language...you are subjective and anita is subjective. but on the matter of who said it.....you are now being objective and anita is subjective.
[/quote]

Let me try and clarify further then:

1. All people speaking Spanish should be judged according to the same criteria;

2. All people speaking English should be judged according to the same criteria;

3. The two should not be confused, as they have been in this case.

 

[LadyRed]

Apologies for the name calling Jack D

 

[monsieurdantes]

anyway. the point i was getting is when anita talks about "a black man", the definition of that man is not simple. just considering skin colour, heritage and culture alone (there's obviously more than a dozen other things)

black man = skin + heritage + culture = 1 + 1 + 1 = 3
adopted anita = 0 + 1 + 1 = 2


so is 2 really that different from 3? How much difference would it take before you are no longer allowed to ever use the n-word. or if you think those factors are not independent and cannot be decoupled....


black man = skin x heritage x culture = 1 x 1 x 1 = 1
adopted anita = 0 x 1 x 1 = 0


so in the coupled case, anita could not say she was only slightly different from a black man. that's why you should do this thought experiments. gather all the data, and build up a picture of what is and is not racist.... then you can have both an objective definition of racism (as in there is no argument over it), but also takes into account cultural factors as well as every other factor.

 

[monsieurdantes]

[quote author=Woland link=topic=47188.msg1457017#msg1457017 date=1325784346]
[quote author=monsieurdantes link=topic=47188.msg1457014#msg1457014 date=1325784139]
[quote author=Woland link=topic=47188.msg1457012#msg1457012 date=1325784034]
[quote author=monsieurdantes link=topic=47188.msg1457010#msg1457010 date=1325783752]
[quote author=LadyRed link=topic=47188.msg1457005#msg1457005 date=1325783386]
Sunny I wouldn't go round branding the N word ever, nor would I feel it's my right to tell a black person what they should and shouldn't find offensive.

That said, I'm confident it's a culture and community I'm much more familiar with than many others on here.
[/quote]

What if you shared everything about their culture and community. For example if you were adopted by a black family so grew up in that culture. Then think about what your position would be. Would you feel it was ok for you to use the n word, or not? Those are the kinds of questions scientist ask in order to understand something better.
[/quote]

It's still subjective and would still depend on who this person was with, like it does for black people. It's not like every black person goes round dropping the N bomb all day, it's a minority within the minority.
[/quote]

did you say dropping the bomb because you just saw themn's video?
[/quote]

I didn't watch the vid, it's a turn of phrase. Anyways, with you being brought up by a family ZX81s, how do you feel when someone calls you a motherboarder?
[/quote]

If they were bigger than me, or I was outnumbered then I would feel nothing. If they were smaller than me I would feel offended and then make them kneel and apologise

 

[themn]

[quote author=Woland link=topic=47188.msg1457017#msg1457017 date=1325784346]
[quote author=monsieurdantes link=topic=47188.msg1457014#msg1457014 date=1325784139]
[quote author=Woland link=topic=47188.msg1457012#msg1457012 date=1325784034]
[quote author=monsieurdantes link=topic=47188.msg1457010#msg1457010 date=1325783752]
[quote author=LadyRed link=topic=47188.msg1457005#msg1457005 date=1325783386]
Sunny I wouldn't go round branding the N word ever, nor would I feel it's my right to tell a black person what they should and shouldn't find offensive.

That said, I'm confident it's a culture and community I'm much more familiar with than many others on here.
[/quote]

What if you shared everything about their culture and community. For example if you were adopted by a black family so grew up in that culture. Then think about what your position would be. Would you feel it was ok for you to use the n word, or not? Those are the kinds of questions scientist ask in order to understand something better.
[/quote]

It's still subjective and would still depend on who this person was with, like it does for black people. It's not like every black person goes round dropping the N bomb all day, it's a minority within the minority.
[/quote]

did you say dropping the bomb because you just saw themn's video?
[/quote]

I didn't watch the vid, it's a turn of phrase. Anyways, with you being brought up by a family ZX81s, how do you feel when someone calls you a motherboarder?
[/quote]

LOL !

 

[Judge Jules]

[quote author=monsieurdantes link=topic=47188.msg1457023#msg1457023 date=1325784819]
[quote author=Woland link=topic=47188.msg1457017#msg1457017 date=1325784346]
[quote author=monsieurdantes link=topic=47188.msg1457014#msg1457014 date=1325784139]
[quote author=Woland link=topic=47188.msg1457012#msg1457012 date=1325784034]
[quote author=monsieurdantes link=topic=47188.msg1457010#msg1457010 date=1325783752]
[quote author=LadyRed link=topic=47188.msg1457005#msg1457005 date=1325783386]
Sunny I wouldn't go round branding the N word ever, nor would I feel it's my right to tell a black person what they should and shouldn't find offensive.

That said, I'm confident it's a culture and community I'm much more familiar with than many others on here.
[/quote]

What if you shared everything about their culture and community. For example if you were adopted by a black family so grew up in that culture. Then think about what your position would be. Would you feel it was ok for you to use the n word, or not? Those are the kinds of questions scientist ask in order to understand something better.
[/quote]

It's still subjective and would still depend on who this person was with, like it does for black people. It's not like every black person goes round dropping the N bomb all day, it's a minority within the minority.
[/quote]

did you say dropping the bomb because you just saw themn's video?
[/quote]

I didn't watch the vid, it's a turn of phrase. Anyways, with you being brought up by a family ZX81s, how do you feel when someone calls you a motherboarder?
[/quote]

If they were bigger than me, or I was outnumbered then I would feel nothing. If they were smaller than me I would feel offended and then make them kneel and apologise
[/quote]

Arf.

 

[Woland]

[quote author=monsieurdantes link=topic=47188.msg1457021#msg1457021 date=1325784647]
anyway. the point i was getting is when anita talks about "a black man", the definition of that man is not simple. just considering skin colour, heritage and culture alone (there's obviously more than a dozen other things)

black man = skin + heritage + culture = 1 + 1 + 1 = 3
adopted anita = 0 + 1 + 1 = 2


so is 2 really that different from 3? How much difference would it take before you are no longer allowed to ever use the n-word. or if you think those factors are not independent and cannot be decoupled....


black man = skin x heritage x culture = 1 x 1 x 1 = 1
adopted anita = 0 x 1 x 1 = 0


so in the coupled case, anita could not say she was only slightly different from a black man. that's why you should do this thought experiments. gather all the data, and build up a picture of what is and is not racist.... then you can have both an objective definition of racism (as in there is no argument over it), but also takes into account cultural factors as well as every other factor.
[/quote]

This still isn't relevant though. The guy with all 3 might drop the N bomb all day with his friends. He could still reasonably take offence if I or another black guy he didn't know called him the same.

I call my wife bitch and she laughs. Some random calls her it and she's offended. Heritage doesn't matter.

 

[Jack D Rips]

[quote author=LadyRed link=topic=47188.msg1457020#msg1457020 date=1325784604]
Apologies for the name calling Jack D
[/quote]

Hand shake.

I cant find a smiley for it. 🙂

 

[monsieurdantes]

[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=47188.msg1457019#msg1457019 date=1325784539]
[quote author=monsieurdantes link=topic=47188.msg1456998#msg1456998 date=1325782947]
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=47188.msg1456980#msg1456980 date=1325782454]
On the contrary, dantes, I'm arguing what I've argued - alongside you - all along. Suarez was speaking Spanish. In that context "negro" is not an insult. One of the fundamental injustices in this case is that he's been judged as though he were speaking English, the assumption which underlies your post above.
[/quote]

Yep, so the law on what is and is not racist must be subjective, when it comes to language used. It should also be subjective upon the person using the words, the country they are used in, the tone of voice etc etc etc. There's a practical limit upon the number of factors the law can consider of course.

What I (sunny and loch ness) are confused about is how on one hand for language...you are subjective and anita is subjective. but on the matter of who said it.....you are now being objective and anita is subjective.
[/quote]

Let me try and clarify further then:

1. All people speaking Spanish should be judged according to the same criteria;

2. All people speaking English should be judged according to the same criteria;

3. The two should not be confused, as they have been in this case.
[/quote]

Absolutely not. Within the set of all the people speaking Spanish, there are further subsets (of people speaking aggressively/politely, people who are black/white, people who are adopted/born black, and so on). They should all be judged by their own criteria too by the same logic you applied above. Otherwise you are arbitrarily putting language upon a pedestal as the most important criteria based on no evidence I know of. Because this is so complicated to legislate for, we trust to peoples common sense to make a judgment.

The problem we have, is that the FA, the media, and some people here don't have that common sense. So without that, we have to give them a maths lesson like the one above. Because they are like stupid children who can no longer be trusted, and need a set of mathematical rules to follow so that they don't fuck up in future. We need mathematical rules to follow in quantum mechanics cos thats hard. But I never thought before now that people were stupid enough to need them over racism.

 

[monsieurdantes]

[quote author=Woland link=topic=47188.msg1457026#msg1457026 date=1325785041]
[quote author=monsieurdantes link=topic=47188.msg1457021#msg1457021 date=1325784647]
anyway. the point i was getting is when anita talks about "a black man", the definition of that man is not simple. just considering skin colour, heritage and culture alone (there's obviously more than a dozen other things)

black man = skin + heritage + culture = 1 + 1 + 1 = 3
adopted anita = 0 + 1 + 1 = 2


so is 2 really that different from 3? How much difference would it take before you are no longer allowed to ever use the n-word. or if you think those factors are not independent and cannot be decoupled....


black man = skin x heritage x culture = 1 x 1 x 1 = 1
adopted anita = 0 x 1 x 1 = 0


so in the coupled case, anita could not say she was only slightly different from a black man. that's why you should do this thought experiments. gather all the data, and build up a picture of what is and is not racist.... then you can have both an objective definition of racism (as in there is no argument over it), but also takes into account cultural factors as well as every other factor.
[/quote]

This still isn't relevant though. The guy with all 3 might drop the N bomb all day with his friends. He could still reasonably take offence if I or another black guy he didn't know called him the same.

I call my wife bitch and she laughs. Some random calls her it and she's offended. Heritage doesn't matter.
[/quote]

one subset at a time woland. i would hypothesis from your data, that if you're married to someone then it negates all the other factors. so the equation would look something like this

(skin + culture + heritage) x relationship to person

 

[Woland]

[quote author=monsieurdantes link=topic=47188.msg1457032#msg1457032 date=1325785614]
[quote author=Woland link=topic=47188.msg1457026#msg1457026 date=1325785041]
[quote author=monsieurdantes link=topic=47188.msg1457021#msg1457021 date=1325784647]
anyway. the point i was getting is when anita talks about "a black man", the definition of that man is not simple. just considering skin colour, heritage and culture alone (there's obviously more than a dozen other things)

black man = skin + heritage + culture = 1 + 1 + 1 = 3
adopted anita = 0 + 1 + 1 = 2


so is 2 really that different from 3? How much difference would it take before you are no longer allowed to ever use the n-word. or if you think those factors are not independent and cannot be decoupled....


black man = skin x heritage x culture = 1 x 1 x 1 = 1
adopted anita = 0 x 1 x 1 = 0


so in the coupled case, anita could not say she was only slightly different from a black man. that's why you should do this thought experiments. gather all the data, and build up a picture of what is and is not racist.... then you can have both an objective definition of racism (as in there is no argument over it), but also takes into account cultural factors as well as every other factor.
[/quote]

This still isn't relevant though. The guy with all 3 might drop the N bomb all day with his friends. He could still reasonably take offence if I or another black guy he didn't know called him the same.

I call my wife bitch and she laughs. Some random calls her it and she's offended. Heritage doesn't matter.
[/quote]

one subset at a time woland. i would hypothesis from your data, that if you're married to someone then it negates all the other factors. so the equation would look something like this

(skin + culture + heritage) x relationship to person
[/quote]

Yeah - relationship - which is why Suarez's claim of only calling something his team-mates called him doesn't stand up.

I mean, if one of my friends from outside the city calls me a dirty thieving pikey bindipping scouse twat it will usually provoke a similar response based on their heritage. If someone I've never met before does it, I go and tell the referee and Alex Ferguson or give them a chinese burn on their nob end or something.

Anyway I'm going for a run.

 

[LadyRed]

Dantes, that is some excellent work you've done there.

Did your equations factor in that fact that I am brown? Perhaps that allows me another point?

 

[Squiggles]

It allows you to see that white people going around England calling black people "negros" is a bit wrong.

 

[vantage]

[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=47188.msg1457040#msg1457040 date=1325786597]
It allows you to see that white people going around England calling black people "negros" is a bit wrong.
[/quote]

FFS, he didn't call anyone a negro.......

Oh and people should definitely look at what Suarez says in his first statement about his team-mates using the same terms in training. If that is found to be true.......

 

[Atlas]

Woland seems to have got it right imo

 

[Squiggles]

200 pages, guaranteed.

 

[monsieurdantes]

[quote author=LadyRed link=topic=47188.msg1457034#msg1457034 date=1325785946]
Dantes, that is some excellent work you've done there.

Did your equations factor in that fact that I am brown? Perhaps that allows me another point?
[/quote]

good point. what about MJ he would be like a quantum uncertaintity variable. the point was that skin colour has no more right to be on a pedestal as language does.

 

[themn]

This *must* be the longest thread in the site's history ?

And absolutely no TITTAYS !

*smh*

 

[Gerry_A_Trick]

[quote author=vantage link=topic=47188.msg1457043#msg1457043 date=1325787218]
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=47188.msg1457040#msg1457040 date=1325786597]
It allows you to see that white people going around England calling black people "negros" is a bit wrong.
[/quote]

FFS, he didn't call anyone a negro.......
[/quote]

If you believe every word he says, but if you believe Evra, he said a lot more things more offensive than that. I'm not surprised people want to believe Suarez, I'd like to too, but the evidence points to Suarez not being totally honest.

 

[vantage]

[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=47188.msg1457050#msg1457050 date=1325788305]
[quote author=vantage link=topic=47188.msg1457043#msg1457043 date=1325787218]
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=47188.msg1457040#msg1457040 date=1325786597]
It allows you to see that white people going around England calling black people "negros" is a bit wrong.
[/quote]

FFS, he didn't call anyone a negro.......
[/quote]

If you believe every word he says, but if you believe Evra, he said a lot more things more offensive than that. I'm not surprised people want to believe Suarez, I'd like to too, but the evidence points to Suarez not being totally honest.
[/quote]

I give up. He admitted calling Evra "negro" not "a negro". Which, according to Suarez is what his team-mates call him in training........

 

[Gerry_A_Trick]

[quote author=vantage link=topic=47188.msg1457051#msg1457051 date=1325788714]
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=47188.msg1457050#msg1457050 date=1325788305]
[quote author=vantage link=topic=47188.msg1457043#msg1457043 date=1325787218]
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=47188.msg1457040#msg1457040 date=1325786597]
It allows you to see that white people going around England calling black people "negros" is a bit wrong.
[/quote]

FFS, he didn't call anyone a negro.......
[/quote]

If you believe every word he says, but if you believe Evra, he said a lot more things more offensive than that. I'm not surprised people want to believe Suarez, I'd like to too, but the evidence points to Suarez not being totally honest.
[/quote]

I give up. He admitted calling Evra "negro" not "a negro". Which, according to Suarez is what his team-mates call him in training........
[/quote]

I know. I'm just saying that the person accused of racism may not have admitted the whole truth. The inquiry doesn't seem to think he was.

 

[vantage]

[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=47188.msg1457052#msg1457052 date=1325788827]
[quote author=vantage link=topic=47188.msg1457051#msg1457051 date=1325788714]
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=47188.msg1457050#msg1457050 date=1325788305]
[quote author=vantage link=topic=47188.msg1457043#msg1457043 date=1325787218]
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=47188.msg1457040#msg1457040 date=1325786597]
It allows you to see that white people going around England calling black people "negros" is a bit wrong.
[/quote]

FFS, he didn't call anyone a negro.......
[/quote]

If you believe every word he says, but if you believe Evra, he said a lot more things more offensive than that. I'm not surprised people want to believe Suarez, I'd like to too, but the evidence points to Suarez not being totally honest.
[/quote]

I give up. He admitted calling Evra "negro" not "a negro". Which, according to Suarez is what his team-mates call him in training........
[/quote]

I know. I'm just saying that the person accused of racism may not have admitted the whole truth. The inquiry doesn't seem to think he was.
[/quote]

And according to Kenny, we need to be asking the FA questions about what is not in the report.....

 

[LadyRed]

[quote author=Woland link=topic=47188.msg1457012#msg1457012 date=1325784034]

It's still subjective and would still depend on who this person was with, like it does for black people. It's not like every black person goes round dropping the N bomb all day, it's a minority within the minority.
[/quote]

On point

 

[Gerry_A_Trick]

[quote author=vantage link=topic=47188.msg1457055#msg1457055 date=1325788945]
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=47188.msg1457052#msg1457052 date=1325788827]
[quote author=vantage link=topic=47188.msg1457051#msg1457051 date=1325788714]
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=47188.msg1457050#msg1457050 date=1325788305]
[quote author=vantage link=topic=47188.msg1457043#msg1457043 date=1325787218]
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=47188.msg1457040#msg1457040 date=1325786597]
It allows you to see that white people going around England calling black people "negros" is a bit wrong.
[/quote]

FFS, he didn't call anyone a negro.......
[/quote]

If you believe every word he says, but if you believe Evra, he said a lot more things more offensive than that. I'm not surprised people want to believe Suarez, I'd like to too, but the evidence points to Suarez not being totally honest.
[/quote]

I give up. He admitted calling Evra "negro" not "a negro". Which, according to Suarez is what his team-mates call him in training........
[/quote]

I know. I'm just saying that the person accused of racism may not have admitted the whole truth. The inquiry doesn't seem to think he was.
[/quote]

And according to Kenny, we need to be asking the FA questions about what is not in the report.....
[/quote]

Maybe, but we'd only be speculating on that. All we can currently go on what is in the report, and it doesn't look good from Suarez's point of view.