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The Moyes Effect

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RICHARD SADLIER – 29 SEPTEMBER 2013
Football is an unfair business. People complain about the scrutiny of the media and the pressure to succeed, but within the dressing room judgments are swifter and more ruthless.

How could the manager of the reigning champions suggest his squad was two players short of a serious title challenge? How could aManchester United manager speak so frankly about disappointing days that may lie ahead? I wouldn't disagree with David Moyes' assessment of his Manchester United squad, especially after yesterday's defeat, but if his players see things differently, he could be in trouble.
It's not irrelevant to compare Moyes with his predecessor because it's exactly what will be happening among the players. They knew what was expected of them under Alex Ferguson. Their job was to satisfy his extraordinary hunger for success and that was it. There were no excuses made in advance of failures and every public comment he made had them in mind. He grasped the impact of everything he said and the dressing room was always his target audience. In that regard, his approach to management was the exact opposite to that of Paolo Di Canio.
If Ferguson's legacy is that of the greatest manager of the modern era, Di Canio's will be precisely the opposite. In perhaps the most spectacular example of how not to be a Premier League manager, Di Canio achieved the extraordinary feat of alienating himself from almost everyone at the club from the start of his reign and never recovered.
Not once did he look like he grasped the value of building relationships with anyone around him and paid the price last week when he was sacked. Once details emerged of how he went about the job, you'd almost wonder how he lasted as long as 175 days.
He delayed Steven Fletcher's return to full training by a week because he believed he wasn't mentally ready. This was on the back of seeing Fletchershare a joke with the first team squad as they ran past where he was working. He undermined the medical staff by giving decision-making powers to a clinic in Rome. And the stadium staff were warned not to interact with players on the day of a game. Disciplinary measures would be taken against anyone caught shaking players' hands or wishing them well prior to kick-off because he believed this would affect their focus.
On one occasion when a player on the fringes of the first-team squad entered the gym to join the players for exercises, he was told to go to the adjoining gym area, look through the window and copy what they were doing from there. I assume the intention was to make him aspire even more to be part of the squad, but it only lowered his opinion of Di Canio and his methods. And it drew the same response from all the other players.
But his public criticisms of the players were tame in comparison to what he was saying to their faces in private. A strategy of almost constant confrontation was adopted with the most predictable of outcomes. As a direct result of his management style, six of the 14 players brought to the club during the summer are said to have asked to be sent out on loan. "You never wanted to let him down," was Roy Keane's line on Ferguson when he retired, but it seems Di Canio inspired an entirely different reaction.
The United players' response to Moyes will be the determining factor in his longevity. He is very different to Di Canio with a record he can point to but not one he can point to very often in a dressing room full of title winners.
Early indications support most pre-season predictions about Manchester United. They are unlikely to finish in the top two and are by no means guaranteed a place in the top four. Ferguson's
departure ensured a lowering of expectations but the appointment of Moyes has reduced them further. Ferguson had an unwavering belief in the ability of his players to win matches and that conviction followed them out onto the field. Measured remarks can't really compare.
Moyes' comments about the strengths and weaknesses of the squad might have had a basis in reality but he has other things to do before he can live in the real world. Primarily he must demonstrate to the United squad that he is the right man to be their manager and that requires a subtle negotiation as he tries to change all that he wants to change while talking about the legacy of Alex Ferguson.
"But he's won nothing," Mourinho is supposed to have said when Moyes was appointed manager. A new book in Spain makes this claim and also says thatChelsea's manager cried when he heard he wasn't succeeding Ferguson. Moyes has to win over a powerful dressing room and he also knows that there are those on the outside who think they could do a better job as well.
 
So a deep run into the CL is what you wish for a club you hate?

I want them to drop out of the top 4 (as we know well it's the first step down)
If they do that and get nothing else this season Moyes will get the boat have no doubt about that. Even a domestic cup won't save him if they finish 5th or lower.
However perhaps a domestic up and a deep run in Europe will buy him 1 more season to really f*ck them up and set them back 5 years.
They have zero chance of winning it with the quality in Europe this year and at the end of the day who cares if the get a q/f or s/f as long as they don't win it.

For the long term demise of the club the longer Moyes stays in the bettter.
 
Definitely want him to get a few more transfer windows under his belt.


Agree. He needs more practice losing at the highest level.

Just read a newspaper headline, "De Gea homesick at United". Read: De Gea sick of Moyes the loser.
 
Did anyone see the banner on Wednesday night from these deluded Mancs..

'The Chosen One'

I lol'd so hard...

If he keeps this up performance wise, he will be gone before the end of the Season...

In regards to the top 4. I can really see them drop out at the expense of us... Still yet to score a goal in open play... All goals scored in the League have been Set Pieces and they look incredibly ordinary
 
This is working out quite well.

I agree that ideally Moyes should stay for a few seasons, you know to really let the rot sit in. I imagine he is like an incompetent care taker of a large hotel during the off-season who wants to work on a book but ends up going mad and trying to kill his family. After he's finished no one wants to go there because of all the stories they've heard about the place and it falls apart.
 
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[article=http://www.express.co.uk/sport/football/433298/David-Moyes-DEFIED-Sir-Alex-Ferguson-with-coaching-shake-up-at-United]MANCHESTER UNITED manager David Moyes snubbed Sir Alex Ferguson's pleas to keep his Old Trafford coaching set-up in tact this summer.

Moyes showed Ferguson's assistant Mike Phelan, first-team coach Rene Meulensteen and goalkeeper coach Eric Steele the door when he took over from the legendary scot.

And with United down in 12th in the Premier League, having lost 2-1 at home to West Brom on Saturday, it is a decision that looks to have backfired.

Keeper coach Steele - who is credited with reversing the fortunes of initial struggler David De Gea at the champions - claims Moyes ignored pleas from Ferguson to retain his backroom staff.

"He listened to the manager's advice, but he wanted to be his own man," Steele told Red Devils magazine Inside United.

"He spoke to me, Mick and Rene. I told him I thought it was a brave decision. I didn't want to leave. Why would I? I knew that David was coming in and wondered who he'd bring.

"You had the United perspective — the manager saying, 'Keep what we've got, keep the continuity, work with them and they'll guide you through. You're taking on a massive machine here. You've gone from Marks and Spencer's to Harrods."

Steele admits he understands Moyes' position, who replaced him with former Everton keeper coach Chris Woods.

Steve Round also followed Moyes from Goodison Park to continue as his assistant, as did first-team coach Jimmy Lumsden.

A United feel remains on the bench with Phil Neville and Ryan Giggs taking on coaching roles under Moyes.

But Steele has questioned why Moyes broke up Ferguson's backroom staff so comprehensively.

"And then there's David's viewpoint, which I understand," Steele added. "I know him professionally. I know his work ethic, his hands-on approach.

"I don't blame him for doing what he did. I've been in the game long enough to know how it is.

"But you've just been part of a team that has had a great season and won the league.

"Does it make sense that you're not retained to continue the good work? Sadly, that's out of my hands.

"My time was up, I'm proud of what I did at United and I have great memories."[/article]
 
I hope they improve, a little. I want moyes to stay and not get the sack. I want them up around 5th-8th place and hopefully that'll be enough for him to keep his job and ruin them. If he keeps being this shit, he'll get the boot, they'll bring ferguson back until the summer and they'll get a proper manager.

#KEEPMOYESIN
 
Alan Hansen: Manchester United and David Moyes must heed the warning of a then-dominant Liverpool's demise

[article=http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/columnists/alanhansen/10342657/Manchester-United-and-David-Moyes-must-heed-the-warning-of-a-then-dominant-Liverpools-demise.html]David Moyes now knows he has taken on the hardest job in football at the hardest possible time.

He is having to meet the challenge of replacing Sir Alex Ferguson as Manchester United manager at the same time as breaking up a team which, in my opinion, was only able  to win two of the last three Premier League titles because of the  sheer force of Ferguson’s will and personality.

It is too early to say we are now witnessing the end of the empire at Old Trafford, but alarm bells are ringing and there are clear similarities between the United of 2013 and the last Liverpool team to win the title back in 1990.

I played in that Liverpool team 23 years ago and it was in the bottom three of the eight title-winning sides I played in at Anfield.

It was an ageing team, one which Kenny Dalglish was looking to break up and build again with new players. In the past the club had successfully combined winning and rebuilding, but this time was different.

Liverpool began to flounder because they failed to replace good players with better ones and the club has paid a heavy price in the two decades since.

United have more depth and quality than the 1990 Liverpool side, but I would say that the two first-teams are comparable in terms of the issues they faced. Both could be described as ageing teams that needed breaking up, but with issues over those brought in as younger replacements.

Having won the title last season with a team that could hardly be described as one of the club’s best-ever, United made a mistake this summer by failing to add the quality that they clearly need.

Moyes’s first objective should have been to look at every position vigorously and ask whether he could get better players in each department.

If not, then United should still have gone out and signed three or four players who were just as good as they had because the secret to success is strengthening while you are on top, regardless of how you won the year before.

However, United only added Marouane Fellaini, who is a good player, but not what they need right now. They need creativity.

United failed in the transfer market, which is unusual because players would usually flood to Old Trafford, but perhaps some of their targets felt they are no longer such an attractive proposition now that Ferguson is no longer in charge.

The Ferguson factor really cannot be overestimated, on and off the pitch. It was a massive element of United’s success, particularly in recent seasons. If Ferguson’s United had just suffered their third defeat in four games against West Bromwich Albion at the weekend, we all know how he would have responded.

He would be spitting blood in the dressing room, but he would also create an ‘us against the world’ mentality, tell his players not to feel sorry for themselves and say, 'we are Manchester United, we have fought back before and we will do it again'.

Moyes cannot deliver that message because he wasn’t there last season when United were regularly fighting back from a goal down to win matches.

There would not a credibility issue for the new manager if United were unbeaten and everything was going great, but he has started the job with three defeats in six league games, so he is an obvious target and people will be picking away and pointing the finger.

Under Ferguson, United’s players would look across to the touchline and see the man who had delivered countless titles, a man who had taken them through adversity in the past.

Moyes does not have those credentials and he has to overcome that, as well as getting it right on the pitch. He knows he has to rebuild his United squad, but it would have been much easier for him to do that had the team finished fifth last season rather than top, eleven points clear of the field.

That winning margin cannot mask the issues United and Moyes have, however. The likes of Phil Jones, Chris Smalling and Tom Cleverley had been billed as the future not so long ago, but none of them has progressed as United would have hoped and expected.

They have not turned into bad players, but time is not on Moyes’s side in terms of them realising their potential and becoming the key men that Ferguson had suggested they would  be.

And that reality makes it harder for Moyes to do what he has to do in breaking up the team. If the younger players fail to replace the older ones, and the club cannot find the top-quality additions that are required, sooner or later you will hit a brick wall.

United are not there yet, but there are worrying issues to be addressed.[/article]
 
I always thought Marks and Spencer was relatively upmarket.


Managing that is a bigger job than managing Harrods. Er, not that I'm being pedantic. Anyway, what I heard about the appointment was that there was a series of intense discussions obsessed with not repeating the post-Busby debacle, and as a result it was decided that it was vital to be patient, to prepare for the possibility of an unsuccessful season and stand firm when the expected media flak started coming. The big problem that they now face is Woodward rather than Moyes. The idea was to be seen to back Moyes in the transfer market come what may, but rely on Woodward taking charge until they started to trust Moyes with their money. Now, after only a matter of weeks, they find themselves not trusting either of them. Once again, though, if they have to make a change they'll be far more inclined to sack Woodward rather than Moyes. The only thing that will harm Moyes in the short term is if the likes of Vidic, Ferdinand, Giggs and RVP start complaining, Sunderland style, about his methods and/or management.
 
Managing that is a bigger job than managing Harrods. Er, not that I'm being pedantic. Anyway, what I heard about the appointment was that there was a series of intense discussions obsessed with not repeating the post-Busby debacle, and as a result it was decided that it was vital to be patient, to prepare for the possibility of an unsuccessful season and stand firm when the expected media flak started coming. The big problem that they now face is Woodward rather than Moyes. The idea was to be seen to back Moyes in the transfer market come what may, but rely on Woodward taking charge until they started to trust Moyes with their money. Now, after only a matter of weeks, they find themselves not trusting either of them. Once again, though, if they have to make a change they'll be far more inclined to sack Woodward rather than Moyes. The only thing that will harm Moyes in the short term is if the likes of Vidic, Ferdinand, Giggs and RVP start complaining, Sunderland style, about his methods and/or management.


Now that you mentioned it, I find it strange that they made 2 major changes i.e. their CE and manager, at almost the same time. I would have thought they would keep Gill for another season at least while Moyes found his feet.

Not that I am complaining though!
 
Ferguson won't come back no matter what. He knows this squad is past it's sell-by date, lacking in quality and in need of a major overhaul that may see them struggle for a season or two (and even that's assuming they open the warchest big time). He won't want to tarnish his reputation with failure.
 
I think he made a mistake not getting rid of Rooney. He had the chance, when Rooney was unpopular with the fans and pushing for a move, to look tough and kick him out. Instead he's let him build up his popularity again, and start playing better, whilst looking as though he's proving Moyes wrong (given Moyes' inept comments about him v RVP in pre-season). And Rooney has such a history with him, he's the one player who, if he chooses to attack him, can attack him with long-term criticisms rather than short-term. With Rooney, no 'give him time to prove his methods' fluff can help Moyes, because Rooney can come back and say 'He's always had these faults, he always will have these faults'. So now Moyes needs Rooney more than Rooney needs Moyes, and just when he needs to stamp his authority on this team he has one of his biggest players with the power to savage him.
 
I think he made a mistake not getting rid of Rooney. He had the chance, when Rooney was unpopular with the fans and pushing for a move, to look tough and kick him out. Instead he's let him build up his popularity again, and start playing better, whilst looking as though he's proving Moyes wrong (given Moyes' inept comments about him v RVP in pre-season). And Rooney has such a history with him, he's the one player who, if he chooses to attack him, can attack him with long-term criticisms rather than short-term. With Rooney, no 'give him time to prove his methods' fluff can help Moyes, because Rooney can come back and say 'He's always had these faults, he always will have these faults'. So now Moyes needs Rooney more than Rooney needs Moyes, and just when he needs to stamp his authority on this team he has one of his biggest players with the power to savage him.

I may be wrong but I reckon that Rooney is playing for a move.
There obviously wasn't sufficient interest at the price that Man U were prepared to sell him for during the summer.
A revitalized Rooney should generate a little bit more interest and if Moyes does fail it will be the perfect time for him to jump ship
 
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