The midfield

[bluebell]

@moron I don't know who the Right Players is, it looks very specific
[article]
And while Klopp admitted his squad have been stung by injuries, he hinted the Reds hierarchy have held transfer conversations - before insisting they will only strengthen their squad now in the unlikely scenario that the right player becomes available.


“I’m happy with the strength, size and quality of my squad,” he told reporters at his pre-match press conference on Friday, ahead of Liverpool's home clash with Crystal Palace. “We have injuries, that’s how it is. Now it’s a question of how long will the players be out.

“There are different solutions for it. One of them, there are plenty I would say, one of them is the transfer market. The transfer market only makes sense if you can bring in the right player. The ‘right’ player, not ‘a’ player.
“It’s easy to bring a player in but that doesn’t help. If you bring the right player then it could make sense. We always would have done that from the first day of the transfer window, from the first day of pre-season but in some cases it’s not possible and in other cases it’s extremely difficult.

"That’s why I don’t have to think a lot about it. If something’s not possible why should I constantly think, “'f not, we cannot exist.' We can. All the other solutions are inside the squad.”
He continued: “I understand the question but I don’t understand it as well. If there would be the right solution for us, we would have done it already. We are not stubborn and say, 'Now?! No way! We don’t bring in anybody!' It’s just about the right thing to do.
“When people told me at the beginning of the season we lacked a specific kind of midfielder, I don’t understand that. If you search for this specific thing, you always lack something. If you have technical players, you miss the fighters. If you have the fighters, you miss the technical players.
"If there would be the right player and the opportunity, we would have done it. We would do it but I don’t see it because we had a lot of conversations and it doesn’t look like something will happen.”
[/article]

 

[mark1975]

@moron I don't know who the Right Players is, it looks very specific
[article]
And while Klopp admitted his squad have been stung by injuries, he hinted the Reds hierarchy have held transfer conversations - before insisting they will only strengthen their squad now in the unlikely scenario that the right player becomes available.


“I’m happy with the strength, size and quality of my squad,” he told reporters at his pre-match press conference on Friday, ahead of Liverpool's home clash with Crystal Palace. “We have injuries, that’s how it is. Now it’s a question of how long will the players be out.

“There are different solutions for it. One of them, there are plenty I would say, one of them is the transfer market. The transfer market only makes sense if you can bring in the right player. The ‘right’ player, not ‘a’ player.
“It’s easy to bring a player in but that doesn’t help. If you bring the right player then it could make sense. We always would have done that from the first day of the transfer window, from the first day of pre-season but in some cases it’s not possible and in other cases it’s extremely difficult.

"That’s why I don’t have to think a lot about it. If something’s not possible why should I constantly think, “'f not, we cannot exist.' We can. All the other solutions are inside the squad.”
He continued: “I understand the question but I don’t understand it as well. If there would be the right solution for us, we would have done it already. We are not stubborn and say, 'Now?! No way! We don’t bring in anybody!' It’s just about the right thing to do.
“When people told me at the beginning of the season we lacked a specific kind of midfielder, I don’t understand that. If you search for this specific thing, you always lack something. If you have technical players, you miss the fighters. If you have the fighters, you miss the technical players.
"If there would be the right player and the opportunity, we would have done it. We would do it but I don’t see it because we had a lot of conversations and it doesn’t look like something will happen.”
[/article]

Doesn't sound like we are signing anyone then. He's right, as frustrating as it is. There's no point in buying a short term fix, we've been there loads of times and it impacts you further down the line. To me, it sounds like we wanted Bellingham and it won't happen until next Summer. Maybe there's someone else as well, who knows.

 

[mark1975]

We need a player similar to Thiago basically. He's the biggest miss in that midfield when he is out.
Maybe young Bajcetic can step up and cover Fabinho in the future.

Oh, and Trent stays where he is currently as the best right back in the World. End off.

He's really not though. You could equally find the best defender of all the right backs in the World and make the same assessment. He's defensively far from the best and that has an impact on whether he should be considered among the best. He's great at attacking, second to none, but he does have his moments of poor defensive decisions (Fulham) and just generally not being at the races and getting everything wrong (Fulham). It's not an "end of" at all, or it wouldn't repeatedly be up for debate.

 

[JohnnyRocket]

Trent's ideal position is probably a David Beckham role on the right side of a 4-4-2.

Unfortunately football isn't played that way anymore.

 

[mark1975]

Trent's ideal position is probably a David Beckham role on the right side of a 4-4-2.

Unfortunately football isn't played that way anymore.

I don't buy that (though he could play that role), football isn't that rigid. We often see any combination of Trent, Salah or Henderson appear during games on the right wing. Elliott has been playing that inside right position and has popped up in brilliant positions throughout the Summer on the right wing, creating goals and chances. His holding position would be the inside right, but on the attack, anyone in that role has license to interchange around that quarter of the pitch and find space. Henderson is always putting in crosses from deep and out-wide, the sort of areas where Trent flourishes.

 

[Buddha]

Regards the talk of Trent in midfield, I’d see him more as a quarterback deep lying midfielder alongside a Fabinho in the 2 of a 4231.

 

[moron]

Doesn't sound like we are signing anyone then. He's right, as frustrating as it is. There's no point in buying a short term fix, we've been there loads of times and it impacts you further down the line. To me, it sounds like we wanted Bellingham and it won't happen until next Summer. Maybe there's someone else as well, who knows.

@mark1975 - what worries me is that come next season they will ONLY get Jude in, and will not then get the other one we need for sure. I expect 2 to 3 to leave, but I don't want FSG getting away with just getting one in. Also not sure about Jude being the answer to everything. We really do need one I think this window.

 

[mark1975]

@mark1975 - what worries me is that come next season they will ONLY get Jude in, and will not then get the other one we need for sure. I expect 2 to 3 to leave, but I don't want FSG getting away with just getting one in. Also not sure about Jude being the answer to everything. We really do need one I think this window.

Priorities change though and sometimes a player or two will surprise us across the season. We don't know the sort of year that Elliott, Fabio, Jones and Bajcetic will have. We might find ourselves saying we need another centre half, or a right back. We might not get enough goals from the forward line and want something else. Where we are now and what we need might not necessarily be the same in a years time. I hope we're getting Bellingham, but there's a long way to go, with the inevitable twists and turns that will come up.

 

[Hansern]

He's really not though. You could equally find the best defender of all the right backs in the World and make the same assessment. He's defensively far from the best and that has an impact on whether he should be considered among the best. He's great at attacking, second to none, but he does have his moments of poor defensive decisions (Fulham) and just generally not being at the races and getting everything wrong (Fulham). It's not an "end of" at all, or it wouldn't repeatedly be up for debate.

Its a debate among us fans and not something Klopp and co are considering though.

The way I look at it is like this:

Trent, currently one of the best right backs in the World and the perfect full back in a Klopp system.
Him and Robbo are integral to the way we play and have learned the system in and out.
His defensive issues are in my opinion blown out of proportion every time we concede a goal from his side.
Given our high line and aggressive defending we will get caught out from time to time.
We are though the team with the lowest xCG a part from City and conceded just 26 goals last season.
The defence doesnt need a reshuffle. Trent is only 23 and the defensive side of his game will continue to improve.

If we move him to midfield it will only create a new problem in regards to our full backs and how we attack.
Gomez cant play there. He doesnt have the ball skills, game intelligence or attacking ability to be effective there.
Our system wont work even close to effective with a defensive right back, so getting in a right back that only can defend wont improve the team as a whole even if you then get Trent in midfield.

Thats why I dont like it and dont think Klopp will even consider it. You're creating an unbalanced team, removing the parts that are integral and currently work, and you're moving a player that is creating World class numbers from his current position.

Thats why its better to buy a player suited for one of the 6's or 8s in our midfield and leave the balance and core of the team as it is. Dont fix one problem by creating a new one.

Help Trent improve his defensive side by training and keep him in the position where he is currently smashing it.

 

[peterhague]

Its a debate among us fans and not something Klopp and co are considering though.

The way I look at it is like this:

Trent, currently one of the best right backs in the World and the perfect full back in a Klopp system.
Him and Robbo are integral to the way we play and have learned the system in and out.
His defensive issues are in my opinion blown out of proportion every time we concede a goal from his side.
Given our high line and aggressive defending we will get caught out from time to time.
We are though the team with the lowest xCG a part from City and conceded just 26 goals last season.
The defence doesnt need a reshuffle. Trent is only 23 and the defensive side of his game will continue to improve.

If we move him to midfield it will only create a new problem in regards to our full backs and how we attack.
Gomez cant play there. He doesnt have the ball skills, game intelligence or attacking ability to be effective there.
Our system wont work even close to effective with a defensive right back, so getting in a right back that only can defend wont improve the team as a whole even if you then get Trent in midfield.

Thats why I dont like it and dont think Klopp will even consider it. You're creating an unbalanced team, removing the parts that are integral and currently work, and you're moving a player that is creating World class numbers from his current position.

Thats why its better to buy a player suited for one of the 6's or 8s in our midfield and leave the balance and core of the team as it is. Dont fix one problem by creating a new one.

Help Trent improve his defensive side by training and keep him in the position where he is currently smashing it.

Yeah but do you think Gerrard should have stayed at right back? He was good there, after all.

 

[Beamrider]

@mark1975 - what worries me is that come next season they will ONLY get Jude in, and will not then get the other one we need for sure. I expect 2 to 3 to leave, but I don't want FSG getting away with just getting one in. Also not sure about Jude being the answer to everything. We really do need one I think this window.

Last time we thought this way we signed the Ox as a stop-gap while we waited for Keita the following summer.
I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that I'm not sure that really worked out.

 

[mark1975]

Its a debate among us fans and not something Klopp and co are considering though.

The way I look at it is like this:

Trent, currently one of the best right backs in the World and the perfect full back in a Klopp system.
Him and Robbo are integral to the way we play and have learned the system in and out.
His defensive issues are in my opinion blown out of proportion every time we concede a goal from his side.
Given our high line and aggressive defending we will get caught out from time to time.
We are though the team with the lowest xCG a part from City and conceded just 26 goals last season.
The defence doesnt need a reshuffle. Trent is only 23 and the defensive side of his game will continue to improve.

If we move him to midfield it will only create a new problem in regards to our full backs and how we attack.
Gomez cant play there. He doesnt have the ball skills, game intelligence or attacking ability to be effective there.
Our system wont work even close to effective with a defensive right back, so getting in a right back that only can defend wont improve the team as a whole even if you then get Trent in midfield.

Thats why I dont like it and dont think Klopp will even consider it. You're creating an unbalanced team, removing the parts that are integral and currently work, and you're moving a player that is creating World class numbers from his current position.

Thats why its better to buy a player suited for one of the 6's or 8s in our midfield and leave the balance and core of the team as it is. Dont fix one problem by creating a new one.

Help Trent improve his defensive side by training and keep him in the position where he is currently smashing it.

The "getting caught out" thing isn't the issue with Trent though. I appreciate that's the downfall of playing the way we do, though it happens a lot less to Robbo, which tells me he has more of a natural instinct of when to drop and recognise potential danger, Trent just doesn't. The wider issue is that one on one he isn't that great a defender. Players attacking the edge of the box often ghost past him, he's often beaten by balls pinged to his back post, he switches off, because I don't think he's a natural defender and he doesn't have that natural instinct to sense danger.

There have been plenty of attacking and defensive fullbacks referred to as "the best", but it's all dependant on the system they play in and how versatile they are to different systems and different situations. If you take attacking fullbacks "in our system" as the focus, then he's the barometer for success, and much better at it than Robbo who's output has lessened in recent seasons, but if you take his defending in that system as the focus, he's not even close. It's not exaggerated, it's proven repeatedly season upon season, it's just been proven again in the first game of the season.

 

[tomasjj]

Trent and Thiago are our playmakers, so I think it makes sense for them to be a bit apart on the field.

 

[Hansern]

Yeah but do you think Gerrard should have stayed at right back? He was good there, after all.

Gerrard got eased into the first team as an Acadamy graduate at 19/20 as a right back, and then moved to midfield.
Thats not comparable.

 

[peterhague]

Gerrard got eased into the first team as an Acadamy graduate at 19/20 as a right back, and then moved to midfield.
Thats not comparable.

Lol how do you know Trent wasn't eased into the first team as a right back at 18/19?

You take a lot for granted.

 

[Hansern]

Lol how do you know Trent wasn't eased into the first team as a right back at 18/19?

You take a lot for granted.

I dont. You're just being difficult.
If Trent had the same plan going forward he wouldnt have played 4,5 seasons as a right back.

Gerrard played maybe half a season as a right back? I'm guessing Houllier had another plan with him from the start. We also played a different formation and system back then.
So switching Trent to midfield now compared to Gerrards progression isnt the same.
But hey, if you want to compare 25 odd games for Gerrard to Trents 230 then go ahead.
It just makes you look foolish and grasping after some tiny straws that arent there.

 

[binomial]

We should sign someone like this guy.

https://fb.watch/eRYwvdGplL/

 

[Hansern]

The "getting caught out" thing isn't the issue with Trent though. I appreciate that's the downfall of playing the way we do, though it happens a lot less to Robbo, which tells me he has more of a natural instinct of when to drop and recognise potential danger, Trent just doesn't. The wider issue is that one on one he isn't that great a defender. Players attacking the edge of the box often ghost past him, he's often beaten by balls pinged to his back post, he switches off, because I don't think he's a natural defender and he doesn't have that natural instinct to sense danger.

There have been plenty of attacking and defensive fullbacks referred to as "the best", but it's all dependant on the system they play in and how versatile they are to different systems and different situations. If you take attacking fullbacks "in our system" as the focus, then he's the barometer for success, and much better at it than Robbo who's output has lessened in recent seasons, but if you take his defending in that system as the focus, he's not even close. It's not exaggerated, it's proven repeatedly season upon season, it's just been proven again in the first game of the season.

I think Robbo is obviously a better defender than Trent. But Robbo also gets way more defensive help than Trent.
We leave him more exposed with having Salah staying higher up the pitch. Both Mane and now Diaz put in a lot more defensive work and tracking back. Again, its just the way we play.

Trent looks better when one of the midfielders tuck in and helps him out. It doesnt leave him as exposed.

 

[mark1975]

I dont. You're just being difficult.
If Trent had the same plan going forward he wouldnt have played 4,5 seasons as a right back.

Gerrard played maybe half a season as a right back? I'm guessing Houllier had another plan with him from the start. We also played a different formation and system back then.
So switching Trent to midfield now compared to Gerrards progression isnt the same.
But hey, if you want to compare 25 odd games for Gerrard to Trents 230 then go ahead.
It just makes you look foolish and grasping after some tiny straws that arent there.

It's not really. They had a similar starting trajectory. The only difference is one manager decided to push Gerrard into midfield and one kept Trent at right back. They both had similarities so the comparisons were and are valid. Another manager would have pushed Trent into midfield. Whether it would have worked we'll never know, but this "he's the best right back in the World, end of" narrative is just undoing your argument.

The best right back in the World at attacking, nowhere near the best at defending. The position requires both, you can't switch off and ignore one aspect of it because it suits your narrative, especially when it's such an exaggerated one in the first place!

 

[tomasjj]

I think it makes sense to have the playmaker in midfield on the left, like Thiago. And then Trent, at the back, on the right.
It makes more space between our two main outlets and playmakers, allowing ups to vary have more angles, options to reach players.
So, I don´t really mind Trent staying where he is.

And is he really that good at receiving the ball back to the opposition goal, and turning? Because that will happen more in midfield.

 

[tombrown]

Jaysus - the Trent in midfield conversation ... AGAIN???? Oh and using the Steven Gerard example as justification (he honestly played a maximum of 5 games in the role, probably less, and he wasn't "eased in as a right back", he played in midfield before then but dropped back to cover for absences as I recall).

Just stop it. I will eat my hat if Trent gets moved to midfield.



But as an insurance policy I'm going to invest in one of these

 

[bluebell]

------------------------------Ali-----------------------

Gomes/Millie-----Matip--------VVD---- Robbo
------------------------------Fab--------------------------------
----------------TAA---------------------Hendo-------------------
Salah---------------------------------------Diaz
-----------------------Nunez--------------------------

What would be wrong with this formation if we have Naby, Thiago and Ox are all injured?

 

[peterhague]

I dont. You're just being difficult.
If Trent had the same plan going forward he wouldnt have played 4,5 seasons as a right back.

Gerrard played maybe half a season as a right back? I'm guessing Houllier had another plan with him from the start. We also played a different formation and system back then.
So switching Trent to midfield now compared to Gerrards progression isnt the same.
But hey, if you want to compare 25 odd games for Gerrard to Trents 230 then go ahead.
It just makes you look foolish and grasping after some tiny straws that arent there.

You're making a circular argument.

ie Trent shouldn't be moved to midfield because he hasn't been moved to midfield, whereas Gerrard should've been moved to midfield because he was moved to midfield.

It's fallacious.

 

[Hansern]

You're making a circular argument.

ie Trent shouldn't be moved to midfield because he hasn't been moved to midfield, whereas Gerrard should've been moved to midfield because he was moved to midfield.

It's fallacious.

Its not, because you cant compare those two examples.

Should Pepe Reina have moved to midfield after playing 1 half in a pre season game there during Rafa's reign?

 

[peterhague]

Its not, because you cant compare those two examples.

Hahahahahahaha

 

[Hansern]

You really think you can compare moving someone from one position after 4,5 seasons and one who played a few games there while being introduced to the first team and cover for injuries?
One is a World class player in his current position and the other a young player coming in to the first team.

Please tell me you’re not that stupid?

 

[Fabio]

Personally I'd play Nunez at right back and Trent in midfield, if it meant I didn't have to see keita in the shirt again

 

[Fabio]

I don't think Trent to midfield is a daft idea, I just don't think it's reasonably practicable. Trent is the creative force on the right, so unless Ramsay or Bradley (on return from loan) can replicate what Trent offers us, it's a moot argument.

Also, I don't think Trent is as dramatically as bad as defending as made out. Our system just exposes that side a lot more. Of it was anyone else they'd get pulled out of position and struggle too

 

[moron]

Last time we thought this way we signed the Ox as a stop-gap while we waited for Keita the following summer.
I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that I'm not sure that really worked out.

Ox was never stop gap for Keita, I am pretty sure that Klopp bought him thinking he was going to be like Leroy Sane type, given the goal he scored against us in that game in which Mane started at Arsenal. To be fair his form was good in that first season right up until he got injured against Roma, and has never looked the same since. I think e really don't do stop gaps, the only ones I would say that are temps are the likes of Shaq, and Taki. The point I am more worried about is if we lose 3 midfielders next season while Tiago, and Henderson are a year older, and we decide to replace the three with just one midfielder named Jude. To me that is completely fucked up, and given the current situation we should be trying to sign up that Matheus Nunes guy. Just think if we got him this season - he is only 23 years old and can play 6 and 8, - it would be great looking forward to next season - our midfield with Jude next season would be sorted like for the next 3 to 4 years:

Nunes-Fab-Jude

With various combinations where we could interchange with the other midfielders. I think this is a lost opportunity - especially if that Nunes guy turns out to be a world-beater at a club like Wolves or City if and when he is ready to move on.

 

[binomial]

Which idiot brought up the 'move Trent into midfield' debacle anyway.

He's played every single minute of every single game he's played in the first team .... at RB & he's 23/24.

It's about 10 years too late to start faffing about learning the trade of a new position & all this developmental bullshit.

After all we've won literally everything there is to win with him as our RB...so what's the issue? That he can't defend like Cafu or Zanetti?