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The improvement in Lucas Leiva

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Morse

Very Active
Honorary Member
Hello,

The thread title says it all really. I'd like to say that I have noticed a vast improvement in his confidence and fitness levels in 2010. His performances this season have shown that his "Man of the match" scores last year were an honest precursor to this season.
I know that this site has more than given him a kicking and sometimes deservedly so, but can we please start to judge him on his performances only from now on?

I'd be interested in your thoughts...

Thanks,

Stuart.
 
Lucas has definitely grown as a player as he has matured with age and experience, but he still has a way to go to be Liverpool quality. 😉
 
I'll quote myself from the 'formations' thread:

Lucas needs to show up in away games too if he is to convince me. Against the likes of Stoke and Wigan it's imperative we control the midfield and in those games Lucas has so far been found horribly lacking.
 
[quote author=JimmyK link=topic=43083.msg1230010#msg1230010 date=1291723109]
Lucas has definitely grown as a player as he has matured with age and experience, but he still has a way to go to be Liverpool quality. 😉
[/quote]

I don't know. At his best (last night; the Chelsea game) he's a very good CM. Not the unsung messiah worshipped on RAWK, but good enough to start for us. However, how many performances like that has he given? As it stands, they're still the exception rather than the rule.
 
Also judge him by the opponents - yes he played very well last night but who the hell are Ciaran Clark and Jonathon Hogg? When Lucas plays well against top opposition (like the win against Chelsea) I'm far more likely to believe he might have improved than against 2 non-entities.

IMO Lucas will never be good enough to play regularly for us if we have trophy-winning aspirations (I hope but very much doubt he'll prove me wrong).
 
If I may I will also take the liberty of quoting myself from the "Formation" thread:

I used to share Brendan's opinion of Lucas, but this season I have been pleasantly surprised. Against Villa last night he totally bossed the midfield.

I think the answer is that Benitez never used him the right way. He is a "box-to-box" midfielder as per the original label, and not a defensive midfielder.

This would explain the mystery of why the Brazilians think so much of him. 🙂
 
Perhaps, but when he gets forward he still doesn't convince me. He IS playing well enough to start for us these days, but he wouldn't start for any of the clubs with a chance of the title, as others have said. When we get to where we want to be, he'll be a squaddie at most (if he's still here). That's not a criticism of the guy, but an attempt at a reasonable assessment.
 
I for one am fully supportive of the suggestion in the OP:

"but can we please start to judge him on his performances only from now on?"

Surely that's a reasonable enough request?
 
It is, but you also need to take in past performances too when making a judgement on the player. It's the reason (most) people won't rip into Gerrard if he has a bad game.
 
Everyone on here can probably agree that Lucas can count himself somewhat fortunate still to be a part of Liverpool FC.

However it is evident that he's improved his performances vastly under Roy and as such is a well-deserved part of the teams recent 'success'.

I'm not convinced yet that he's indeed good enough to hold down a place in a team competing for top honours in probably the best league around but he's certainly impressed me of late and as such I'm no longer sadened to see his name on the team-sheet.

Hopefully he can build on his performances and improve further. A few more goals and a bit more strength shown in the last 1/3 of the pitch would suit him well. Then who knows how good he can be?

Credits to Morse for posting this thread on 6CM. Like Lucas you've got rather big cojones.
 
[quote author=Akakabooto link=topic=43083.msg1230012#msg1230012 date=1291723267]
I'll quote myself from the 'formations' thread:

Lucas needs to show up in away games too if he is to convince me. Against the likes of Stoke and Wigan it's imperative we control the midfield and in those games Lucas has so far been found horribly lacking.
[/quote]

You don't think that the Manager's formation and tactics is to blame for the poor away form?
 
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=43083.msg1230024#msg1230024 date=1291724195]
It is, but you also need to take in past performances too when making a judgement on the player. It's the reason (most) people won't rip into Gerrard if he has a bad game.
[/quote]

True enough, but we don't laud him for past performances when he has a bad game either.

In the same way, we shouldn't castigate Leiva when he has a good one.
 
[quote author=Morse link=topic=43083.msg1230036#msg1230036 date=1291725933]
[quote author=Akakabooto link=topic=43083.msg1230012#msg1230012 date=1291723267]
I'll quote myself from the 'formations' thread:

Lucas needs to show up in away games too if he is to convince me. Against the likes of Stoke and Wigan it's imperative we control the midfield and in those games Lucas has so far been found horribly lacking.
[/quote]

You don't think that the Manager's formation and tactics is to blame for the poor away form?
[/quote]

Of course it is, I'm not saying Lucas is the reason for our away form. Still he has been horrible in most away matches and no matter what tactics and formations we have played he still should have done way better.
 
[quote author=KHL link=topic=43083.msg1230025#msg1230025 date=1291724357]
Everyone on here can probably agree that Lucas can count himself somewhat fortunate still to be a part of Liverpool FC.

However it is evident that he's improved his performances vastly under Roy and as such is a well-deserved part of the teams recent 'success'.

I'm not convinced yet that he's indeed good enough to hold down a place in a team competing for top honours in probably the best league around but he's certainly impressed me of late and as such I'm no longer sadened to see his name on the team-sheet.

Hopefully he can build on his performances and improve further. A few more goals and a bit more strength shown in the last 1/3 of the pitch would suit him well. Then who knows how good he can be?

Credits to Morse for posting this thread on 6CM. Like Lucas you've got rather big cojones.
[/quote]


I'm not looking for a fight mate...just a bit disappointing to see that 6CM seems to hold a grudge rather than admit that he has a good game. I go on a lot of other LFC sites (due to the MOM game) and see that he is given a fair crack most of the time.

For the record, I love this site and the characters who live here.
 
[quote author=Morse link=topic=43083.msg1230048#msg1230048 date=1291726838]
[quote author=KHL link=topic=43083.msg1230025#msg1230025 date=1291724357]
Everyone on here can probably agree that Lucas can count himself somewhat fortunate still to be a part of Liverpool FC.

However it is evident that he's improved his performances vastly under Roy and as such is a well-deserved part of the teams recent 'success'.

I'm not convinced yet that he's indeed good enough to hold down a place in a team competing for top honours in probably the best league around but he's certainly impressed me of late and as such I'm no longer sadened to see his name on the team-sheet.

Hopefully he can build on his performances and improve further. A few more goals and a bit more strength shown in the last 1/3 of the pitch would suit him well. Then who knows how good he can be?

Credits to Morse for posting this thread on 6CM. Like Lucas you've got rather big cojones.
[/quote]


I'm not looking for a fight mate...just a bit disappointing to see that 6CM seems to hold a grudge rather than admit that he has a good game. I go on a lot of other LFC sites (due to the MOM game) and see that he is given a fair crack most of the time.

For the record, I love this site and the characters who live here.
[/quote]

???

I think almost everyone here agrees he had a good game against Villa for example.
 
[quote author=Morse link=topic=43083.msg1230042#msg1230042 date=1291726217]
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=43083.msg1230024#msg1230024 date=1291724195]
It is, but you also need to take in past performances too when making a judgement on the player. It's the reason (most) people won't rip into Gerrard if he has a bad game.
[/quote]

True enough, but we don't laud him for past performances when he has a bad game either.

In the same way, we shouldn't castigate Leiva when he has a good one.
[/quote]

In fairness, I don't think anyone on here has. Most have pointed out that he's been much better of late. Me, and others, are just unconvinced that he can keep it up. Obviously everyone hopes he can.
 
I don't think anyone thought Lucas and Mash was a suitable partnership last season and this year we've struggled at times with a partnership of Poulsen and Lucas. In fact it was horrible to watch. Neither player knew what their role was, who was to sit, who was to bomb forward and who was to try control the play. They seemed to shunt it backwards and sideways and Roy forced us to painfully watch Raul Meireles do a 'job' out wide when everyone and their mother cried for him to be moved infield. Poulsen had to make way, Lucas was out performing him and at least Lucas gave us 110%.

Overall you could say Lucas has had a positive first half of the season. His highlight being Chelsea at home where he and Gerrard bossed the middle of the park and his low point being a dismal performance and sending off against Stoke. He is full of energy and is showing a lot of courage in his play which can be depicted in his 50/50 with Palacios last weekend. He seems to playing a lot of forward balls and his confidence levels have risen. All encouraging signs.

Many of us have had concerns over Lucas and his inclusion in our first team . Many continued to wear their blindfolds and didnt notice his improvements but at the same time many (Rawkites) remained blind to his limitations.

I don't see many unique qualities in him that could take us forward, no clear signs of pace or power, he isn't a destroyer (Masher) nor a playmaker/quarterback (Alonso) and he doesn't show a knack of scoring goals (Gerrard). However he has formed a tidy understanding with Raul which is a great sign. Meireles is a classy player and a player Lucas has needed alongside him. Meireles seems to be able to quicken the tempo, move the ball and set up attacks. It would have been fantastic if we had Masher and Meireles last year.

I still think we can do better than Lucas in such a crucial position but I am happy he has improved and I will cheer him on each game. I don't think he can take us forward as an individual but if he keeps playing like he did against Chelsea and Villa then he may well become an asset for us which is good for our squad. I still think people are camping themselves in either extreme although the 'haters' are warming to him a lot more and rightly so. His superfans are creaming themselves with his signs of improvement but we still need to give it time before we can judge whether Lucas has really turned a corner with us. i.e. Will we see one good game followed by two mediocre games. Everyone is allowed average games, christ we've been average for most of them this season and it is nice to see Lucas go from just neat and tidy to actually trying to impact a game. Fair play to him and long may it continue. Anyone keeping Poulsen off the pitch will always have my support.
 
---------------------------Pepe------------------------------
Johnson-------The Greek--------Skrtel-----------Konchesky
--------------------------------------------------------------
------------------Lucas-----------Meireles-------------------
Maxi--------------------Gerrard-----------------------Babel
-------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------Torres-----------------------------

?


Gotta be honest im liking the 4-4-2 and that would be Gerrard and Raul for me.
 
He's had as many shit games as good games this season. Which is an improvement. I suppose.

Still not good enough. Still want him gone. Still fucking hate him.

(He did play well last night. Jonathon Hogg won't want to play against him too often).
 
[quote author=ILD link=topic=43083.msg1230066#msg1230066 date=1291728744]
I don't think anyone thought Lucas and Mash was a suitable partnership last season and this year we've struggled at times with a partnership of Poulsen and Lucas. In fact it was horrible to watch. Neither player knew what their role was, who was to sit, who was to bomb forward and who was to try control the play. They seemed to shunt it backwards and sideways and Roy forced us to painfully watch Raul Meireles do a 'job' out wide when everyone and their mother cried for him to be moved infield. Poulsen had to make way, Lucas was out performing him and at least Lucas gave us 110%.

Overall you could say Lucas has had a positive first half of the season. His highlight being Chelsea at home where he and Gerrard bossed the middle of the park and his low point being a dismal performance and sending off against Stoke. He is full of energy and is showing a lot of courage in his play which can be depicted in his 50/50 with Palacios last weekend. He seems to playing a lot of forward balls and his confidence levels have risen. All encouraging signs.

Many of us have had concerns over Lucas and his inclusion in our first team . Many continued to wear their blindfolds and didnt notice his improvements but at the same time many (Rawkites) remained blind to his limitations.

I don't see many unique qualities in him that could take us forward, no clear signs of pace or power, he isn't a destroyer (Masher) nor a playmaker/quarterback (Alonso) and he doesn't show a knack of scoring goals (Gerrard). However he has formed a tidy understanding with Raul which is a great sign. Meireles is a classy player and a player Lucas has needed alongside him. Meireles seems to be able to quicken the tempo, move the ball and set up attacks. It would have been fantastic if we had Masher and Meireles last year.

I still think we can do better than Lucas in such a crucial position but I am happy he has improved and I will cheer him on each game. I don't think he can take us forward as an individual but if he keeps playing like he did against Chelsea and Villa then he may well become an asset for us which is good for our squad. I still think people are camping themselves in either extreme although the 'haters' are warming to him a lot more and rightly so. His superfans are creaming themselves with his signs of improvement but we still need to give it time before we can judge whether Lucas has really turned a corner with us. i.e. Will we see one good game followed by two mediocre games. Everyone is allowed average games, christ we've been average for most of them this season and it is nice to see Lucas go from just neat and tidy to actually trying to impact a game. Fair play to him and long may it continue. Anyone keeping Poulsen off the pitch will always have my support.

[/quote]

Agree with this 100%
 
I think he's improved loads in consistency and quality this year. Disagree with Brendan and some others - he's had more positive games than bad this year and is definitely on the upward curve. We should wait and see how his overall season goes but I think he's been let of the leash somewhat and looks a better player for it. If he plays more and more games like he did last night then he deserves a fair crack at it. Let's not forget the lads only 23 as well.
 
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=43083.msg1230078#msg1230078 date=1291729973]
I think he's improved loads in consistency and quality this year. Disagree with Brendan and some others - he's had more positive games than bad this year and is definitely on the upward curve. We should wait and see how his overall season goes but I think he's been let of the leash somewhat and looks a better player for it. If he plays more and more games like he did last night then he deserves a fair crack at it. Let's not forget the lads only 23 as well.[/quote]
To be honest that's very easy to forget. He looks at least five years older to me.

23-years-old is nothing.

Not only has his on-pitch displays impressed of late but now also the birth-date in his passport.
 
[quote author=Akakabooto link=topic=43083.msg1230053#msg1230053 date=1291727201]
[quote author=Morse link=topic=43083.msg1230048#msg1230048 date=1291726838]
[quote author=KHL link=topic=43083.msg1230025#msg1230025 date=1291724357]
Everyone on here can probably agree that Lucas can count himself somewhat fortunate still to be a part of Liverpool FC.

However it is evident that he's improved his performances vastly under Roy and as such is a well-deserved part of the teams recent 'success'.

I'm not convinced yet that he's indeed good enough to hold down a place in a team competing for top honours in probably the best league around but he's certainly impressed me of late and as such I'm no longer sadened to see his name on the team-sheet.

Hopefully he can build on his performances and improve further. A few more goals and a bit more strength shown in the last 1/3 of the pitch would suit him well. Then who knows how good he can be?

Credits to Morse for posting this thread on 6CM. Like Lucas you've got rather big cojones.
[/quote]


I'm not looking for a fight mate...just a bit disappointing to see that 6CM seems to hold a grudge rather than admit that he has a good game. I go on a lot of other LFC sites (due to the MOM game) and see that he is given a fair crack most of the time.

For the record, I love this site and the characters who live here.
[/quote]

???

I think almost everyone here agrees he had a good game against Villa for example.
[/quote]

We'll see won't we?
The MOM thread should be a good indicator.
 
I think Morse is right. Some people can't give the lad credit when it's very much deserved. Yeh, he's been shite in the past. Awful at times. I myself said he would never be a first teamer but, should he keep on improving the way he has, I think he could be. Honestly. He looks miles better and much stronger plus his passing is very much improved. He looks a good player of late. I watched him carefully last night and he was excellent. Some people just can't get over the "Lucas therefore he must be shit" stuff. It's a bit sad really. I'm seriously starting to change my mind on the lad given some of the positive performances this season
 
[quote author=Morse link=topic=43083.msg1230085#msg1230085 date=1291730641]
Good post ILD.

🙂
[/quote]

Nice to see you posting as well Morse - not just info gathering 😀
 
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=43083.msg1230084#msg1230084 date=1291730627]
I think Morse is right. Some people can't give the lad credit when it's very much deserved. Yeh, he's been shite in the past. Awful at times. I myself said he would never be a first teamer but, should he keep on improving the way he has, I think he could be. Honestly. He looks miles better and much stronger plus his passing is very much improved. He looks a good player of late. I watched him carefully last night and he was excellent. Some people just can't get over the "Lucas therefore he must be shit" stuff. It's a bit sad really. I'm seriously starting to change my mind on the lad given some of the positive performances this season

[/quote]

And I feel some people tend to give him too much credit when he has a good game just because some go over the top when he has a bad one.

He has improved but I think it's fair to say he needs a lot more of those good games to convince it is not just a peak in form.
 
[quote author=Akakabooto link=topic=43083.msg1230090#msg1230090 date=1291731113]
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=43083.msg1230084#msg1230084 date=1291730627]
I think Morse is right. Some people can't give the lad credit when it's very much deserved. Yeh, he's been shite in the past. Awful at times. I myself said he would never be a first teamer but, should he keep on improving the way he has, I think he could be. Honestly. He looks miles better and much stronger plus his passing is very much improved. He looks a good player of late. I watched him carefully last night and he was excellent. Some people just can't get over the "Lucas therefore he must be shit" stuff. It's a bit sad really. I'm seriously starting to change my mind on the lad given some of the positive performances this season

[/quote]

And I feel some people tend to give him too much credit when he has a good game just because some go over the top when he has a bad one.

He has improved but I think it's fair to say he needs a lot more of those good games to convince it is not just a peak in form.
[/quote]

I'm not basing my judgement on one game. I'm basing it on what I see in front of me this season - every game - in the flesh. If I think he's been shit I'll say so. If he's played well and shown consistent improvement then I'll say so as well. he has so I have. It's as simple as that. Without getting into the match going\TV debate you simply cannot get a full view of the game on the tellybox or some shitty internet stream
 
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=43083.msg1230091#msg1230091 date=1291731278]
[quote author=Akakabooto link=topic=43083.msg1230090#msg1230090 date=1291731113]
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=43083.msg1230084#msg1230084 date=1291730627]
I think Morse is right. Some people can't give the lad credit when it's very much deserved. Yeh, he's been shite in the past. Awful at times. I myself said he would never be a first teamer but, should he keep on improving the way he has, I think he could be. Honestly. He looks miles better and much stronger plus his passing is very much improved. He looks a good player of late. I watched him carefully last night and he was excellent. Some people just can't get over the "Lucas therefore he must be shit" stuff. It's a bit sad really. I'm seriously starting to change my mind on the lad given some of the positive performances this season

[/quote]

And I feel some people tend to give him too much credit when he has a good game just because some go over the top when he has a bad one.

He has improved but I think it's fair to say he needs a lot more of those good games to convince it is not just a peak in form.
[/quote]

I'm not basing my judgement on one game. I'm basing it on what I see in front of me this season - every game - in the flesh. If I think he's been shit I'll say so. If he's played well and shown consistent improvement then I'll say so as well. he has so I have. It's as simple as that. Without getting into the match going\TV debate you simply cannot get a full view of the game on the tellybox or some shitty internet stream
[/quote]

I'm not basing my judgement on one game either nor am I saying anyone is. As I said I think Lucas has improved but still has a long way to go before I'm convinced. I really don't think I'm being unfair on him.

And even if you can't get as good a view on TV as you get live on the ground in the long run you can still make a pretty good assessment on a player.
 
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