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The improvement in Lucas Leiva

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[quote author=Sunny link=topic=43083.msg1230187#msg1230187 date=1291737163]
[quote author=PaulGorst link=topic=43083.msg1230185#msg1230185 date=1291737042]
Lucas is like a cross between Roy Keane and Michael Essien...sorry wrong forum.
Lucas will never be good enough in my book, but if the alternative is Poulsen then more power to Lucas's extended run in the team.
[/quote]

I've thought that for a long time but I think he could be if he keeps on improving and is more consistent. The next 20 games may be very interesting for Lucas
[/quote]

Twas a light-hearted stab at RAWK.
Lucas is like Modric minus everything good about Modric, so basically looks like him from far away.
 
FWIW I tend to agree with Morse and Sunny's assessment and to be fair Lucas' improvement was apparent last year when he was one of our better players in a poor performing team. It is worth remembering he's still a young player and it's good to see him winning over the fans slowly but surely and long may it continue.
 
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=43083.msg1230084#msg1230084 date=1291730627]
I think Morse is right. Some people can't give the lad credit when it's very much deserved. Yeh, he's been shite in the past. Awful at times. I myself said he would never be a first teamer but, should he keep on improving the way he has, I think he could be. Honestly. He looks miles better and much stronger plus his passing is very much improved. He looks a good player of late. I watched him carefully last night and he was excellent. Some people just can't get over the "Lucas therefore he must be shit" stuff. It's a bit sad really. I'm seriously starting to change my mind on the lad given some of the positive performances this season

[/quote]

Interesting to hear you say this Sunny.

I personally haven't seen this "drastic" improvement in Lucas that a number are speaking about now and in the last couple of months. I never thought he was as bad as most seemed to think he was but neither do I really think he's been exceptional at any point this season - Chelsea apart where he hassled the living f*ck out of Malouda.

Against Villa he was good but nothing amazing - though he did certainly run the midfield but against average opposition. He's always had pretty good passing and his first time passing was always good, he's always put 110% into the game which I've liked and always put his foot in to get the ball more often than not.

For me the changes have been:
1) physical - he's gone in hard in a number of painful challenges and not been twatted; he's obviously improved his core strength and hasn't shirked the next opportunity either.
2) selection - he's cut out, largely, the careless fouls when tackling. Given how often he was the one who put his foot in the tackle it was to be expected that he give away some fouls in the past which always seemed to stick in peoples memory. Those seem to have gone this season.

For me he is never going to be dynamic enough to be a true box to box player - though we have been spoilt with Stevie. Having said that the two improvements I've mentioned do make him, IMO, a worthy part of our team just now. If he could bring the shooting boots he had in Brazil before coming here then I might just begin to believe he would be a worthy part of a title chasing Liverpool team.
 
Interesting debate lads.
I think the lads come on leaps and bounds this year. He's had the odd stinker in an underperforming team, but more often than not his BAD performances have been where he has been anonymous. Given that our tactic has basically been give it to Carra to try and hit Torres this year its hardly suprising that Lucas, Maxi, Cole etc have been missing for much of the 90mins. When we pass it around and actually attempt to play football the players in the midfield seem to shine.
Lucas has been mostly good, occasionally bad and once or twice excellent. Last season he was mostly shite. Fair play to the lad. As has been said he's 23 and all you can expect is improvement over time and he's delivering on that.
If we play football (West ham, tottenham, chelsea, villa) he could turn out to be a much better player than we all thought. As the weeks go by he's earning the chance to be involved.
And last night he was top class from start to finish. If he could do that week in week out he'd be one of the best CM in the game.
Im really not seeing the box to box thing tho.
 
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=43083.msg1230219#msg1230219 date=1291739797]

If he could do that week in week out he'd be one of the best CM in the game.

[/quote]

No he wouldn't.
 
[quote author=Brendan link=topic=43083.msg1230220#msg1230220 date=1291739866]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=43083.msg1230219#msg1230219 date=1291739797]

If he could do that week in week out he'd be one of the best CM in the game.

[/quote]

No he wouldn't.
[/quote]

Ha, a flamboyantly eloquent piece by Brendan on the subject of his thesis.
 
[quote author=Brendan link=topic=43083.msg1230220#msg1230220 date=1291739866]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=43083.msg1230219#msg1230219 date=1291739797]

If he could do that week in week out he'd be one of the best CM in the game.

[/quote]

No he wouldn't.
[/quote]Yes he would. It was a first class performance, but as you pointed out it was against boss hogg and those performances are sporadic from him. IF he played like that regardless of the opposition every week he would be a magical player. Im not suggesting he will.
 
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=43083.msg1230219#msg1230219 date=1291739797]
Interesting debate lads.
I think the lads come on leaps and bounds this year. He's had the odd stinker in an underperforming team, but more often than not his BAD performances have been where he has been anonymous. Given that our tactic has basically been give it to Carra to try and hit Torres this year its hardly suprising that Lucas, Maxi, Cole etc have been missing for much of the 90mins. When we pass it around and actually attempt to play football the players in the midfield seem to shine.
Lucas has been mostly good, occasionally bad and once or twice excellent. Last season he was mostly shite. Fair play to the lad. As has been said he's 23 and all you can expect is improvement over time and he's delivering on that.
If we play football (West ham, tottenham, chelsea, villa) he could turn out to be a much better player than we all thought. As the weeks go by he's earning the chance to be involved.
And last night he was top class from start to finish. If he could do that week in week out he'd be one of the best CM in the game.
Im really not seeing the box to box thing tho.
[/quote]


As has been pointed out by others, he really wasn't that poor last season - at least not relative to the rest of the team.

I certainly don't think that consistent repeats of his form against Villa would put him in the upper echelon of CM's in this league; repeats of his performance against Chelsea yes but against Villa it would be a no.


Agree 100% on the box to box theory; he did it in Brazil but I just don't think he's got the dynamism to do it effectively let alone wonderfully in this league.
 
[quote author=Wizardry link=topic=43083.msg1230225#msg1230225 date=1291740291]

As has been pointed out by others, he really wasn't that poor last season - at least not relative to the rest of the team.
I certainly don't think that consistent repeats of his form against Villa would put him in the upper echelon of CM's in this league; repeats of his performance against Chelsea yes but against Villa it would be a no.


Agree 100% on the box to box theory; he did it in Brazil but I just don't think he's got the dynamism to do it effectively let alone wonderfully in this league.
[/quote]

I wrote something similar on another forum and will use the bones of it in reply to above......

I agree he wasn't poor last season, he was consistent, however was it consistently average perhaps? Lucas being heralded as one of our top performers (In online polls) last season is indicative of how average our season was. We came 7th and it was a terrible season. Many on RAWK claimed if we had more people mirroring the efforts of Lucas then we wouldn't be 7th. I understand the sentiment of how they appreciate his efforts but if we had more players like Torres and Gerrard we wouldn't have been 7th. These are the players we want to see topping polls. If they are topping polls then we are performing well. Lucas can be a consistent performer but him topping polls just shows have devoid we've been of 'stars' last season. Our player of the year being a keeper says it all.

Now taking nothing away from Lucas this season, last year he was a steady eddie who kept it neat and tidy and his efforts were appreciated. However this year he has made vast improvements and is begining to impact games. Long may it continue and lets get behind him.
 
Let's not confuse 'most improved' player with one that's any good.

Our golf society hands out a 'most improved' trophy every year and the recipient is usually still shite.
 
Now that Babel is firmly established as an all time great for us im going to divide my attentions between him and Lucas. The future kings of LFC.
One day they will both have gates named after them.
 
MOM last night.
Still not good enough to be a regular starter. He was abysmal at Wigan and Stoke and poor at Spurs.
 
[quote author=Brendan link=topic=43083.msg1230220#msg1230220 date=1291739866]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=43083.msg1230219#msg1230219 date=1291739797]

If he could do that week in week out he'd be one of the best CM in the game.

[/quote]

No he wouldn't.
[/quote]

No he wouldn't be consistent? or No he wouldn't be the best CM?

I must know these things...
 
[quote author=Brendan link=topic=43083.msg1230264#msg1230264 date=1291745626]
The gate for wheelchair access
[/quote]

Hahahahah
 
[quote author=Le Chacal link=topic=43083.msg1230265#msg1230265 date=1291745962]
MOM last night.
Still not good enough to be a regular starter. He was abysmal at Wigan and Stoke and poor at Spurs.
[/quote]

He was not poor against Spurs. Far from it.
 
[quote author=Mamma Mia link=topic=43083.msg1230286#msg1230286 date=1291749697]
[quote author=Le Chacal link=topic=43083.msg1230265#msg1230265 date=1291745962]
MOM last night.
Still not good enough to be a regular starter. He was abysmal at Wigan and Stoke and poor at Spurs.
[/quote]

He was not poor against Spurs. Far from it.
[/quote]
Partly guilty for their first goal. As often, his position was disastrous..
 
[quote author=Mamma Mia link=topic=43083.msg1230291#msg1230291 date=1291751192]
"partly" guilty for one goal made that him poor in that game? Poo.
[/quote]

Ermm yes it did.
He was invisible for the rest of the match...
 
Yes he was as good against Villa as he was fucking shit against Stoke.

So it's a bit like positrons and electrons.

Lucas is a weedy, mong-faced, shit-haired midfield neutron, who has spent four years attaining that status.

Yay.
 
It may slightly vindicate you Ryan but it really paints Benitez into a hole. This player that he rated he played in a position and with partners that made him look so bad that a majority of knowledgeable fans were scared every time they saw his name on the team sheet.
 
It doesn't vindicate anything. He's still nowhere near good enough and everyone knows it.

For every Villa, there's an Everton.

Ie he's fuck all use to anyone.
 
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=43083.msg1230349#msg1230349 date=1291760639]
Then half the fucking team is of no use based on that rationale.
[/quote]

That just proves his point. Cause thats a true statement.
 
How is this still a point of discussion? He's average. Not the worst signing, not the best. Not a midfield dynamo, not a liability. If he keeps improving then happy days, if he gets worse then sell him.

Lucas has now become a point scoring exercise on this site now. When he plays well "see he is good", when he's bad "see he is a cunt". What's the point? His mediocrity seems to be a fantastic talking point amongst reds.
 
He's been very good in about 3 or 4 of the last 5 games, and he's been very good in a few others too. He's also been really shit in some, there's no in between, BUT he's improving and as I said all through last season, he (like Masher) looks better alongside a playmaker.

His performances so far alongside Meireles have been really good, anyone disputing that because of how shit he 'can' be is being a cunt.
 
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