Swindon match thread

[mark1975]

If Markovic had been some youth prospect struggling to make an impact, I'd have agreed with you. As it happens, we scouted him extensively for 2 years, and paid 20 million for him. Give me one instance in the last year where he's been played on the left-wing or in a central AM position? Those are the two positions he always played at with either Benfica or Serbia.

Instead, it's been right-wing, RWB and LWB - three positions he's never played in his career. In a new league, and a toothless attack in front of him.

Undoubtedly, he seems to be a bit on the soft side. But this weird approach to player development is doing him no favours at all. We're hardly a club which can afford to let huge investments go to waste. We've seen it in recent years with Coates, Alberto, Ilori. Markovic seems destined to join that lot - it's very disheartening, not to mention a criminal waste of money.

I suspect Moreno and Origi will also go down the same route. Rodgers seems to have given up on Moreno already, and Origi has now too many players ahead of him to get meaningful minutes.

We play a three pronged attack alot of the time, Origi will get plenty of minutes. I'm amazed that people bang on about squads but then as soon as a player has to fight for a place in the side (which is only a good thing) it's decided we've given up on them. If Moreno is now on the outside looking in, it's not without good reason, he's been poor. He clearly has alot of potential, but as we saw today, he makes mistakes too. So if he starts the season as second choice left back, he can't have many complaints and neither can we. It means we've got two very promising players in the same position, as is gradually becoming the case in most areas of the team.

 

[Hansern]

I'd have offered them a huge contract and a low release clause.

Bet you it'd have got most of the dudes on that list.

We wouldnt. Its easy to list a bunch of players that we could get but in reality we wouldnt.

 

[Hansern]

hahaha so many SCM curmudgeons mad that Benteke scored that goal

This place is shite at times. Some are just waiting and it actually seems hoping that our signings turn out shite so they can moan about it.

Great goal by Benteke. Hope he scores 20 this season.

 

[Dirkus_Circus]

This place is shite at times. Some are just waiting and it actually seems hoping that our signings turn out shite so they can moan about it.

Great goal by Benteke. Hope he scores 20 this season.

There were many on here who were almost more miserable in the 13-14 season because we were playing so well and it was hard to find things to moan about.

 

[peterhague]

We wouldnt. Its easy to list a bunch of players that we could get but in reality we wouldnt.

It's also easy to say it's easy to say we would've but in reality we wouldn't but in reality we don't know we might have.

 

[Hansern]

It's also easy to say it's easy to say we would've but in reality we wouldn't but in reality we don't know we might have.

Riiiiight.

Lacazette - staying for one more year. Ruled us out earlier this summer with no CL
Benzema - not for sale. Would he be interested in a transfer with Arsenal/Utd interested? Nope
Depay - not a striker. Was always going to Utd but we might have had a chance if we moved quickly but doubtful.
Aubameyang - not for sale and signed a new contract
Dybala - going to us and not Juve. Doubtful. But with enough money we might have got him. 21 years old one for the future aswell.
Vietto - wanted a move to Atletico and ruled us out.

So Dybala and Depay. One isnt a striker and the other is just as young and unproven. Juve paid 40 mill €.

 

[peterhague]

So what's your point?

 

[Hansern]

Take a guess. I'll give you an hint: we were in no position to get any of the strikers you listed bar Dybala and Depay (who isnt a striker anyway).

It makes the whole debate "we should just have" pointless.

 

[peterhague]

But what about Tevez? You haven't even mentioned him.

 

[rurikbird]

Markovic, Moreno and Lovren may have been poor buys, but I don't think that they are, or were poor players. Whoever bought them doesn't seem to have thought about how to develop and train them. It's a consistent theme in Rodgers' tenure - you play poorly in your first season and you're out, unlikely to ever feature in the first team again.

Borini, Assaidi, Şahin, Alberto, Aspas, Moses, Cissokho, Markovic, Lambert, Manquillo, Balotelli. That's 11 players out of 23 bought or loaned in his first 3 seasons (excluding Origi), that he's found absolutely no use for after the first season, and in some cases, after a couple of matches. 67.5 million that could have been put to better use over three seasons. Some of them are obviously muck but I'm also not counting players like Allen, Yesil, Toure, Lovren, Illori, who play from time to time or might still make it.

The frightening thing is, I think it would not be far off the mark to say not one of these players improved after joining us.

There are so many exceptions to this rule, I'm not sure it's even a rule. The new captain Henderson is one proof that Rodgers' doghouse is not permanent. Downing is another – clearly wrong buy for the club but Rodgers found how to coax at least some good football out of him in his last season. Sterling performed poorly at times, but Rodgers stuck with him, showed good patience and got duly rewarded by the player's undying love and loyalty... well no, not really.

Of all things to criticize Rodgers for, refusing to stick with Borini, Assaidi, Aspas, Moses, Cissokho etc. is pretty low on my list. In fact it's not a fault, but a virtue. Now why they made decisions to buy some of those players, that's another story altogether and I've been vocal in criticizing Rodgers for what I think are his sub-par skills as a transfer director. But I think he is a good manager and if a player deserves it, Rodgers will generally find a use for him.

 

[rurikbird]

But what about Tevez? You haven't even mentioned him.

Tevez left Juve because he badly missed home and wanted to return to Argentina. For sure he would not go back to the North-East of England, he HATED it there. And without CL football too. If you think this was ever on, you must be smoking something.

 

[keniget]

I agree with both sides regarding Markovic.

The way we buy and use a lot of players is criminally wasteful and definitely is disheartening to see us making the same mistakes.

That said I can't help but feel Markovic was a flawed investment destined to fail from the get go. He has looked completely unable to make any kind of impact. He's not fast, he's not strong, his touch is inconsistent as is his passing. I've seen very little evidence to support any claims that he'd be any better in the #10 role than he is out on the right.

Everyone involved was onto a loser from the get go given that at the time we already had 2 young players who were / are streets ahead in every department.

 

[peterhague]

There are so many exceptions to this rule, I'm not sure it's even a rule. The new captain Henderson is one proof that Rodgers' doghouse is not permanent. Downing is another – clearly wrong buy for the club but Rodgers found how to coax at least some good football out of him in his last season. Sterling performed poorly at times, but Rodgers stuck with him, showed good patience and got duly rewarded by the player's undying love and loyalty... well no, not really.

Of all things to criticize Rodgers for, refusing to stick with Borini, Assaidi, Aspas, Moses, Cissokho etc. is pretty low on my list. In fact it's not a fault, it's a virtue. Now why they made decisions to buy some of those player, that's another story and I've been vocal in criticizing Rodgers for what I think are his sub-par skills as a transfer director. But I think he is a good manager and if a player deserves it, he will generally find a use for him.

He has loads of patience for his signings, very little for the committee's.

It's really not much more complicated than that.

It's yet another reason I really see no hope for us under him. He has to go. Sooner or later he's going to fuck us up. Better that it's sooner IMO.

 

[peterhague]

Tevez left Juve because he badly missed home and wanted to return to Argentina. For sure he would not go back to the North-East of England, he HATED it there. And without CL football too. If you think this was ever on, you must be smoking something.

He might have hated the North East of England but Liverpool is in the North West so he'd have been fine.

 

[rurikbird]

Henderson and Downing were not his signings. Coutinho was almost certainly "committee's" signing, while Lallana is his – and yet last season he didn't undercut Coutinho in favor of his signing (as many managers would have certainly done – just look at what's happening at other teams! In fact that's exactly what happened to Coutinho at Inter, that's why he left).

The more you and some others try to paint Rodgers as some kind of stubborn ideologue of a manager who is constantly playing favorites, "proving points" at the expense of certain players, the more this caricature feels wrong and forced. He has his faults, but he's a practical manager at heart and he adjusts to the players, not vice versa.

 

[rurikbird]

He might have hated the North East of England but Liverpool is in the North West so he'd have been fine.

My bad, I meant North-West of course 🙂

 

[Ryan]

He's shown an ability to pick out creative passes numerous times. He can play as a 10 no worries.

Unfortunately for him, 3 others in the squad can do it better.

 

[peterhague]

Unfortunately for him, 3 others in the squad can do it better.

Kinda my point.

 

[peterhague]

Henderson and Downing were not his signings. Coutinho was almost certainly "committee's" signing, while Lallana is his – and yet last season he didn't undercut Coutinho in favor of his signing (as many managers would have certainly done – just look at what's happening at other teams! In fact that's exactly what happened to Coutinho at Inter, that's why he left).

The more you and some others try to paint Rodgers as some kind of stubborn ideologue of a manager who is constantly playing favorites, "proving points" at the expense of certain players, the more this caricature feels wrong and forced. He has his faults, but he's a practical manager at heart and he adjusts to the players, not vice versa.

Henderson and Downing seem irrelevant. Obviously I don't think he's so maniacal that he'd cast out the entire squad he inherited. That he didn't do that doesn't make him positively reasonable, though.

Coutinho is an extreme example. Clearly where a player is so overwhelmingly successful as him he's unlikely to play favourites. But around the more typical signings - Lovren or Sakho, Markovic or Lallana, Milner or Can - he'll go for his guy every time.


I'd emphasise the Lovren point but from memory you're a big fan of his so maybe it's not worth the bother.

 

[rurikbird]

Henderson and Downing seem irrelevant. Obviously I don't think he's so maniacal that he'd cast out the entire squad he inherited. That he didn't do that doesn't make him positively reasonable, though.

Coutinho is an extreme example. Clearly where a player is so overwhelmingly successful as him he's unlikely to play favourites. But around the more typical signings - Lovren or Sakho, Markovic or Lallana, Milner or Can - he'll go for his guy every time.


I'd emphasise the Lovren point but from memory you're a big fan of his so maybe it's not worth the bother.

I said we should cut our losses on Lovren and sell him ASAP. I guess it makes me a fan? If Rodgers plays Lovren over Sakho, I'll have to partially agree with you. But so far I think most of the "evidence" you have for Rodgers' perceived favoritism is pure conjecture.

 

[peterhague]

I think you used to be a fan of Lovren, then? Do I have the right person? It's difficult to keep track of every single post someone makes on a particular subject, rather than just the general pattern.

I should probably point out that I don't necessarily think it's a problem that Rodgers strongly favours his own signings. My concern is that he makes shit signings, and shows no sign of brooking any opposition, and that sooner or later making crap signings and playing crap players will lead us to disaster. There's really no future for someone like that. He's too fatally flawed.

 

[rurikbird]

I think you used to be a fan of Lovren, then? Do I have the right person? It's difficult to keep track of every single post someone makes on a particular subject, rather than just the general pattern.

I was, until I saw him play.

 

[Dirkus_Circus]

 

[juniormember]

Should certainly have been a penalty.

But I think the press will have found themselves the new cover boy for theatrics and injury feigning. They're going to have a field day with this kid.
Let's just pull all his teeth out so he doesn't do a full on Suarez.

 

[hamstrung_pigeon]

For those who missed the game and want to see how they did:

Firmino:


Benteke:


The main positive for me yesterday was that we didn't seem to have any problems fitting Benteke into the team. He wasn't static nor ponderous without the ball; could've finished better on the Firmino pass, and two or three passes weren't the right ones, but overall, I was pretty encouraged by his display. Just wish he had just a bit more pace.

The other was Firmino of course. He looked like he was playing with something in reserve to protect himself - and wisely so - but still managed to look pretty impressive.

Finally, Allen's injury opens another window of opportunity for Teixeira. I don't think he'll be in the matchday squad for league games in the coming season, but he should be a starter for the cup competitions and hopefully be able to impress and establish a beachhead from there. Maybe he can convince watching scouts that he's good enough to play every week for some first division team in England or in a Tier I / II European league, and gets picked for a loan or permanent move. I like the kid a lot (more so than Suso I might add) and I hope he gets a loan to a club like Swansea, Bournemouth or West Ham (should be a different proposition under Bilic), and then comes back ready to take Allen's spot in the squad from 2016/17 onwards.

 

[hamstrung_pigeon]

And here's Teix:

 

[Ryan]

For those who missed the game and want to see how they did:

Firmino:

Didn't see any of the game, so thanks for that. A few things that stand out from that though cos I'll be honest - I know fuck all about this kid and have never seen him play.

- See how tall he is when he receives the ball? That's a nice thing. He's up high on his feet and isn't concerned about crouching down to ensure a solid first touch. You see shit footballers half-crouched over when he ball's coming to them, they're so concerned about making sure their touch is good they compensate by setting the body up to ensure they've got everything behind the ball. This kid is upright, and looking around. Fire it at me, I'll trap it however it comes to me and I'll already be off and going. Little things like that seperate good players from average ones. Watch how Danny Ings receives the ball - it's not like this kid. Seriously, next time you're watching football have a look at the body positioning and the 'height' a player stands at when the ball comes to him.

- Notice how he's always in space when he receives it. No fluke. Suarez was like that, how does someone that good always end up in 3 metres of space? Cos he ever stops fucking moving, and he knows where to move. Again, little things.

- A faster, greasier pitch will suit him. A bit more zip and he'll be a yard and a level above others.

- Controls with any part of the foot. Some players can only control on the instep or the outstep, some can't control the fucking thing at all. His first touch is flawless, on any part of the foot.

- He'll begin his career left of a front 3 and be allowed to drift in. Kinda how Coutinho started really.

 

[Buddha]

And here's Teix:

Very promising again. Like others have said, the Allen injury might just open a much needed opportunity to the lad.

He looks ready for it.

 

[dmishra]

And here's Teix:

Smashing talent. There's a real dynamism about him.

 

[Mystic]

For those who missed the game and want to see how they did:



Firmino:





Benteke:





The main positive for me yesterday was that we didn't seem to have any problems fitting Benteke into the team. He wasn't static nor ponderous without the ball; could've finished better on the Firmino pass, and two or three passes weren't the right ones, but overall, I was pretty encouraged by his display. Just wish he had just a bit more pace.



The other was Firmino of course. He looked like he was playing with something in reserve to protect himself - and wisely so - but still managed to look pretty impressive.



Finally, Allen's injury opens another window of opportunity for Teixeira. I don't think he'll be in the matchday squad for league games in the coming season, but he should be a starter for the cup competitions and hopefully be able to impress and establish a beachhead from there. Maybe he can convince watching scouts that he's good enough to play every week for some first division team in England or in a Tier I / II European league, and gets picked for a loan or permanent move. I like the kid a lot (more so than Suso I might add) and I hope he gets a loan to a club like Swansea, Bournemouth or West Ham (should be a different proposition under Bilic), and then comes back ready to take Allen's spot in the squad from 2016/17 onwards.

Cheers for posting the videos, and good post. I was particularly impressed with Benteke yesterday, but that's probably because I expected so little, his movement was clever, and he ran the channels well, sure he's only average paced, by he's not one dimensional like Andy and Mario as I was expecting. He was occasionally used as a "target man" but I don't think that worked to our detriment, in fact I think its helped us vary up our build up nicely. I'm encouraged though, even though his pace is average, there was more than enough in his movement yesterday to suggest he'll be able to work well in our system, well especially compared to what we've had in the past season. He is great at taking up positions in the box too, our clever players should be able to thrive off that, as Firmino nearly did yesterday.

A small note about Firmino, I noticed it during the game and it was especially noticeable in those videos, sure he started off on the left, but he seemed to be popping up everywhere, maybe him and Markovic were just swapping regularly, or maybe he was told to roam, regardless it was nice to see. He looked like he was only playing in second gear yesterday, but still looked class, I can't wait to see him in full flow.