Suso

[Best Believe It]

The kid keeps getting palmed off on loan, and doesn't get any games for us, and we're moaning he wont sign a new contract?

Really? I'm surprised he hasn't asked for another loan this season.

 

[mark1975]

The worst thing is, he's a potential deep lying play maker, exactly the sort that could step into Gerrard's shoes if he was patient enough to wait and learn. I do sympathise to a degree, because in terms of his career for us, he's regressed from playing most weeks a couple of years ago, to not playing at all and going out on loan. He did quite well in the Summer too, but was immediately tossed aside as the games got more competitive, despite being one of our better performers.

It's bewildering really, the thing we can maybe grasp at is that he's got a bad attitude, he said he loved the club and wanted to stay a few months ago, and now this. Makes you wonder.

 

[gkmacca]

They just showed an interview with him on LFCTV and he seemed fine, talking about how he'd be happy to be asked to play in any position and how he's looking forward to getting chances.

 

[hamstrung_pigeon]

The worst thing is, he's a potential deep lying play maker, exactly the sort that could step into Gerrard's shoes if he was patient enough to wait and learn. I do sympathise to a degree, because in terms of his career for us, he's regressed from playing most weeks a couple of years ago, to not playing at all and going out on loan. He did quite well in the Summer too, but was immediately tossed aside as the games got more competitive, despite being one of our better performers.



It's bewildering really, the thing we can maybe grasp at is that he's got a bad attitude, he said he loved the club and wanted to stay a few months ago, and now this. Makes you wonder.

If he'd been paying attention to events in the past couple of seasons, then he'd have noticed that being out of favour for a period of time isn't necessarily a death sentence - the likes of Carra, Sterling, Skrtel, Henderson, etc. all went through spells when Rodgers preferred some other guy over them but then came back to give them the opportunities which they then grabbed to win their places back. It's up to Suso whether he wants to take a more positive outlook on things and believe the same could happen, or if he wants to let his impatience get the better of him.

As I shared previously, he probably needs to take note of Le Tallec's regret before really deciding to leave. I don't know if their fates will be the same, but it's probably good for him to assess himself honestly and decide if he sees himself being able to get back into a top four club in the top leagues a few years after he's left Liverpool.

 

[Whirly]

Yeah Emre Can made such a bad decision moving from Munich to Leverkusen for minutes. Really stalled his career.

Personally I hope we extend him and then loan him out. Mainly because that means we retain an asset at no cost, with his wages being paid by whomever. If he really breaks through, then it's even better.

 

[mark1975]

Yeah Emre Can made such a bad decision moving from Munich to Leverkusen for minutes. Really stalled his career.

In some ways it did, he's been really fortuitous that we took a gamble on him, we got him for a reasonable fee, given he was the next big thing a few years ago, and his reviews in Germany have been mixed to say the least. It's worked out well for him, but there's plenty of instances where young players let impatience get the better of them and see their careers go down the pan, look at Bentley, Pennant, Ireland, Michael Johnson, Adam Johnson, SWP, etc. Obviously there are exceptions to the rule, but there's enough negative instances.

 

[Whirly]

In some ways it did, he's been really fortuitous that we took a gamble on him, we got him for a reasonable fee, given he was the next big thing a few years ago, and his reviews in Germany have been mixed to say the least. It's worked out well for him, but there's plenty of instances where young players let impatience get the better of them and see their careers go down the pan, look at Bentley, Pennant, Ireland, Michael Johnson, Adam Johnson, SWP, etc. Obviously there are exceptions to the rule, but there's enough negative instances.

Yeah Paul Pogba should've stuck with United.

Of course there's going to be more examples of failures though, just because there's infinitely more terrible players out there than useful ones.

I think you are overestimating how highly rated Can ever was though. While always talented, he was never hyped as a true marquee player, mostly due to the amount of talent coming being developed in Germany.

 

[mark1975]

Yeah Paul Pogba should've stuck with United.

Of course there's going to be more examples of failures though, just because there's infinitely more terrible players out there than useful ones.

I think you are overestimating how highly rated Can ever was though. While always talented, he was never hyped as a true marquee player, mostly due to the amount of talent coming being developed in Germany.

I don't really get what point you're making. A handful go on to bigger better things, loads don't, ergo, he should think about it.

 

[red_maradona]

The worst thing is, he's a potential deep lying play maker, exactly the sort that could step into Gerrard's shoes if he was patient enough to wait and learn. I do sympathise to a degree, because in terms of his career for us, he's regressed from playing most weeks a couple of years ago, to not playing at all and going out on loan. He did quite well in the Summer too, but was immediately tossed aside as the games got more competitive, despite being one of our better performers.

It's bewildering really, the thing we can maybe grasp at is that he's got a bad attitude, he said he loved the club and wanted to stay a few months ago, and now this. Makes you wonder.

agree. very strange. i'd even go back to alberto purchase and him being disregarded, still a strange call.

turning to this season, something seems not quite right in terms of personal relations

 

[Whirly]

I don't really get what point you're making. A handful go on to bigger better things, loads don't, ergo, he should think about it.

I'm saying the talented ones will make it anyways in many cases. The ones who don't more often weren't good enough, their choice in clubs wasn't the deciding factor in them not fulfilling their potential.

 

[Modo]

I'm saying the talented ones will make it anyways in many cases. The ones who don't more often weren't good enough, their choice in clubs wasn't the deciding factor in them not fulfilling their potential.

It's not that simple. It's easy to say "well he finally made, it proves he's talented".
You want examples of players who aren't that talented but made it, look no further than Flanno and Carra.
What I'm saying is there's a lot of talented players out there who probably made the wrong choice but we'll never know the extent of it.

 

[Whirly]

It's not that simple. It's easy to say "well he finally made, it proves he's talented".
You want an examples of players who aren't that talented but made it, look no further than Flanno and Carra.
What I'm saying is there's a lot of talented players out there who probably made the wrong choice but we'll never know the extent of it.

It's a bit like the Downing argument for me, wherein people were claiming he was just settling in after a slightly better second season, and was going to improve further. Player development is huge, but you can often tell if the quality is there or not.

I see where you're coming from, but I think the caveat being avoided is that most youth academy players don't amount to much at all. So just as players who stick with the club go, but to an even greater degree as clubs will ship out players they deem not good enough, young players who leave are even more likely to not pan out.

 

[peterhague]

This 'look at Le Tallec etc' argument is ludicrous. As if players who leave a big club because they're not good enough then go on to have poor careers because they left, rather than because er, um, just maybe.... they *weren't good enough!!!*

Weakest logic ever.

As for Suso in particular: I think he's a good player but I always had major doubts where he'd fit into a good PL team, mainly because his athletic ability is extremely poor. I would perhaps favour a buy back option along the lines suggested by Frog Fish. I don't particularly see him ever being able to play a significant defensive role a la Gerrard, though - at least not in this country.

 

[LeTallecWiz]

Just because you don't develop into a 'world beater,' doesn't mean you weren't good enough. I think Le Tallec is saying he left a club which would have given him the best opportunity to nurture and develop into the player his talent allowed him to. Modo's examples of Flanno and Carra are both good ones - both players decided to stick it out at Liverpool, and one became a legend (sorry Modo) and the other has pushed himself into the 1st team squad and consideration for England. Then again, Whirly's examples of players who 'had' it and left clubs for playing time (Pogba) are as valid. It doesn't necessarily depend on talent alone ...

Now Suso obviously has the talent. He may not have the athletic ability etc, but I am assuming what Mark (& others are saying) is Liverpool may be the best place for him to realize his full potential.
He may stay at Liverpool, and follow the Pacheco path.
He may stay at Liverpool, and become a key player for us.
He may go to Milan and melt under the pressure of a club that has been trying to climb out of a hole for years.
He may go to Milan and become a star.

Obviously, the above not only depends on variables Suso controls (training, motivation etc) but variables he doesn't (manager, injuries etc) ...

Bottom line, if we think he has a future, give him a 3-4 year contract and loan him to Milan. If we don't, sell him for the x million with a buy back clause and/or sell on fee ...

 

[Modo]

It's a bit like the Downing argument for me, wherein people were claiming he was just settling in after a slightly better second season, and was going to improve further. Player development is huge, but you can often tell if the quality is there or not.

I see where you're coming from, but I think the caveat being avoided is that most youth academy players don't amount to much at all. So just as players who stick with the club go, but to an even greater degree as clubs will ship out players they deem not good enough, young players who leave are even more likely to not pan out.

Btw I don't agree I gave you a like because you mentioned Downing

 

[peterhague]

But you need a sense of proportion. There may be odd cases of players really suffering after moving to lesser clubs because of the different conditions, but surely anyone can see that the really important determinants are talent and application. There are countless examples of good players being released or sold by big clubs and coming good a few years later, rising back up the league(s).

Carragher seems like a terrible example to me. He got his debut at 18 and was a fixture in the first team from about 1999 (aged 20) to 2013.

 

[LeTallecWiz]

But you need a sense of proportion. There may be odd cases of players really suffering after moving to lesser clubs because of the different conditions, but surely anyone can see that the really important determinants are talent and application. There are countless examples of good players being released or sold by big clubs and coming good a few years later, rising back up the league(s).

Carragher seems like a terrible example to me. He got his debut at 18 and was a fixture in the first team from about 1999 (aged 20) to 2013.

I agree re: proportion ... and application (talent is key but how many good players don't make the most of their talent?)

Maybe I'm wrong - but I thought Carra almost left when he was younger? And decided to stay?

An example I think that would help what I'm trying to say is Nani. His talent is outrageous ... did he apply himself enough? Did he move too early to a big club? etc ...

 

[Modo]

Carra was also very lucky. We had a wank defence back then

 

[peterhague]

I don't remember Carra ever being close to leaving. Houllier came in in 99 at which point he'd have been about 20 and just ended the season having done well as a centre half. I can't quite believe GH would have countenanced him leaving because he absolutely adored Carragher. I'm unaware of any instance of us trying to sell him before that.

As for him being 'lucky' to have played in a poor defence - seriously? GH came in and bought Hyypia and Henchoz. That was both unlucky for Carragher AND a good defence, and yet he still forced himself into the team as a right footed left back.

It's hard to imagine a footballer's career less dependent on luck than Carragher's. It's an insult to say otherwise. He truly grafted his way to greatness.

 

[Modo]

I don't remember Carra ever being close to leaving. Houllier came in in 99 at which point he'd have been about 20 and just ended the season having done well as a centre half. I can't quite believe GH would have countenanced him leaving because he absolutely adored Carragher. I'm unaware of any instance of us trying to sell him before that.

As for him being 'lucky' to have played in a poor defence - seriously? GH came in and bought Hyypia and Henchoz. That was both unlucky for Carragher AND a good defence, and yet he still forced himself into the team as a right footed left back.

It's hard to imagine a footballer's career less dependent on luck than Carragher's. It's an insult to say otherwise. He truly grafted his way to greatness.

Our Rb, Lb?
Cause Carra was a full back.
Also I didn't say that it was only luck.

 

[peterhague]

I don't understand your first two sentences. What do you mean?

 

[Modo]

I don't understand your first two sentences. What do you mean?

I'm saying a weak defence doesn't only mean our central defenders, we didn't have any good fullbacks either.
Houllier managed to get Babbel on a Bosman. So that solved the right back position, however we were missing a competent left back. Here's where Carra comes in. Who did he have to compete with? Matteo? Vignal?

 

[peterhague]

Give me a fucking break. It's a bullshit argument: he got in there on merit.

And btw, Houllier signed Ziege in 2000 for £5.5m, so he would have been the big sparkly signing for that spot.

 

[dogboy]

According to Suso himself in his interview (last week or week before), there were talks between club and player/agent. Whether that amounted to an actual offer on the table, don't know. I'd think the only logical reason for us to not even offer a contract (if that's the case) is if the Suso camp has been adamant in forcing a move or running down his contract.

He could do well to read the article below. Granted, Milan isn't a small club, but they're a club with a bit of stability issue at the moment, so not exactly the best environment for a youngster to learn in. I think if he's determined to leave, the smart thing for him to do would be to wait out and observe how Inzaghi does at Milan between now and January before committing to a pre-contract to join them next season on a Bosman, or telling Liverpool to accept Milan's offer and make the move in the winter transfer window.

http://www.standard.co.uk/sport/foo...regrets-wasting-liverpool-chance-8347009.html

[article]Anthony Le Tallec regrets wasting Liverpool chance
Published: 23 November 2012

Anthony Le Tallec believes he could have emulated the feats of Fernando Torres or Carlos Tevez had he not wasted the opportunity he had as a young striker at Liverpool.

Le Tallec, now 28, moved to Liverpool, under French compatriot Gerard Houllier, from Le Havre when he was still a teenager in 2001 after excellent performances for France's Under-17 World Cup winning team.

But he told sports daily L'Equipe that he regretted having asked the then-Liverpool manager Rafael Benitez to leave the club in 2004 when he was still only 20.

He now plays for Valenciennes in France's Ligue 1 but explained why it did not work out in England when he was younger.

"I had an agent who kept telling me St Etienne wanted me. Benitez was recruiting Spanish players. I told myself I would not have my chance.

"It hurts when, after Liverpool, you play in smaller clubs. I did not realise that I was in a great club. I have regrets. When I see Torres, Tevez, who are of the same generation, I say to myself 's***'.

"My agent tells me: 'Torres stole your career!," he added, laughing.

"I'm not jealous but I say to myself that I could have done like him."

While on Liverpool's books he was loaned to St Etienne, Sunderland, Sochaux and Le Mans, signing a permanent deal with Le Mans in 2008 before moving to AJ Auxerre in 2010 and Valenciennes this season.

He has scored five goals from seven Ligue 1 appearances with Valenciennes, who are sixth in the standings ahead of Friday's trip to St Etienne.[/article]

Le Tellec has turned into a mental. Torres/trvez?Really.

As for Suso, who gives a shite.

 

[Modo]

Give me a fucking break. It's a bullshit argument: he got in there on merit.

And btw, Houllier signed Ziege in 2000 for £5.5m, so he would have been the big sparkly signing for that spot.

Why do you think he signed Ziege?

 

[dogboy]

The worst thing is, he's a potential deep lying play maker, exactly the sort that could step into Gerrard's shoes if he was patient enough to wait and learn. I do sympathise to a degree, because in terms of his career for us, he's regressed from playing most weeks a couple of years ago, to not playing at all and going out on loan. He did quite well in the Summer too, but was immediately tossed aside as the games got more competitive, despite being one of our better performers.

It's bewildering really, the thing we can maybe grasp at is that he's got a bad attitude, he said he loved the club and wanted to stay a few months ago, and now this. Makes you wonder.

He said he loves the club. He probably always dreamed of playing at Anfield. Yada Yada.

 

[peterhague]

Why do you think he signed Ziege?

Presumably he thought he'd be better than Carragher.

Carragher managed to get a massive slice of luck though by knuckling down yet again and yet again proving himself undroppable, luckily playing throughout a lucky treble winning season. Then, as luck would have it, Houllier signed yet another left back the next summer. And obviously lucky Carragher by good fortune managed to remain in the side yet again as it went from strength to lucky strength, pushing all the way for the title. Etc etc etc.

I mean, have you got even the faintest idea what 'luck' means?

 

[Modo]

So Ziege suffering knee injuries, Babbel getting a serious illness that ended his career didn't help Carra?
You do remember that he was moved to right back when Riise was bought?

Do you have the faintest idea what luck means?

Also didn't we just establish that Flanno was lucky that we were short on options due to injuries?

Here's what you had to say about Flanno:

I think with McLaughlin we're seeing how true it is that even very good prospects need luck to succeed at such a high level as LFC. If he'd avoided injuries and had the kind of opportunities that opened up for Flanagan (on two occasions) then I'm pretty sure he'd have made it. As it is he's got a mountain to climb because the injuries meant he's not far enough along to have been considered now Johnson's coming to the end, which means Manquillo was signed.

Isn't it a bit similar?

Also, when Gerrard broke through, didn't a spot open up for him in the team due to another Jamie getting a serious injury?

Might I add, this was about 14-16 years ago which means that Carra was between 19 and 21 years old. About the same age as Flanagan.

 

[peterhague]

No it isn't remotely similar.

There's really no point discussing this with you any further. You're an LFC fan who hates Carragher. A cunt. Everyone knows it, I can only presume it gives you some weaselly satisfaction.

Any reasonable person can see that the last thing Carragher was is lucky and the first thing you are is a cunt.

 

[keniget]

If I was Suso, I'd probably be looking to leave. Talk of knuckling down and waiting for your chance is great, but when you've got a couple of new 20M signings and established players to contend with, you've got to be realistic and admit that chance isn't very likely to come.

I'd love to be proven wrong but it feels like his ship has sailed. His chance to break through came with Sterling's when we were lacking in quality and depth up front. I'd be intrigued to know why it didn't happen for him because it's not like he looked out of his depth or incapable when he did get a chance.

Rodgers does seem to have favour players that can run like mad for 90mins and / or have pace. Suso, I suppose, doesn't quite fit that mould and perhaps Rodgers doesn't see him fitting in.

I suppose it doesn't matter now. I don't know where all these ideas of sell-on and buyback clauses are coming from - if he's on a free at the end of the season, we ain't getting shit bar a couple mill, if that.