Summer rebuild 2023

[Fabio]

James is an improvement defensively than Trent, and it's not a huge drop off offensively either.

I still think if we had 2 decent CBS, and midfielders who could fucking track back or pressure efficiently, the Trent issue would be reduced. He can offer us so much. So so fucking much.

 

[ibromurph]

James is an improvement defensively than Trent, and it's not a huge drop off offensively either.

I still think if we had 2 decent CBS, and midfielders who could fucking track back or pressure efficiently, the Trent issue would be reduced. He can offer us so much. So so fucking much.

Well I'd just like us to have at least a back up for Trent in specific games. And just generally someone who isn't 37 years old. It's quite the drop off when TAA isn't in form.

But yes, the more pressing issues in my opinion is the midfield 3. (I think we'd be OK if Konate was fit; only one of Matip/Gomez needs to be replaced).

The CBs will of course be exposed when you have an immobile Fabinho in front of them. And Henderson who seems to be brilliant for about 15mins per match nowadays. He was great against Newcastle, and Madrid, for the first 15mins. Funnily enough we were 2-0 up in both games.

Then he dropped off the intensity and they get right back in it.

 

[Hansern]

James is overrated and insanely injury prone. He's not much better than Trent defensively if you look beyond this season were Trent has been underperforming.
James also switches off and has problems with his positioning. Their numbers arent even comparable if you look at assists and attacking output, and most importantly staying fit.

James 23 years old 184 games, 14 goals, 23 assists
Trent 24 years old 257 games, 11 goals, 65 assists

I'd rather have Trent.

 

[ibromurph]

James is overrated and insanely injury prone. He's not much better than Trent defensively if you look beyond this season were Trent has been underperforming.
James also switches off and has problems with his positioning. Their numbers arent even comparable if you look at assists and attacking output, and most importantly staying fit.

James 23 years old 184 games, 14 goals, 23 assists
Trent 24 years old 257 games, 11 goals, 65 assists

I'd rather have Trent.

When you talk about injuries, switching off and positioning, I agree, but the same could be said for Walker and AWB. And obviously Trent.

The key difference is 1 v 1 battles. Very important in the modern game against explosive wingers.

Trent gets beaten 9 times out of 10 by Vini Jnr. Walker/AWB/James get beaten maybe 3/4 times out of 10. That's huge because key moments in a game swing on such events.

To be honest, it's not even close defensively. I love TAA and believe in a dominant attacking LFC team, I'd prefer him at FB, but the way we are now? We probably need better there too.

Trent 9.5/10 offensively. 4/10 defensively.
James 7.5/10 offensively. 7/10 defensively.

Whatever you believe regarding James, or his ability, neither here nor there, the key point I was making is we need a more balanced FB, defensively and offensively. I just used James as I rate him.

 

[Best Believe It]

I can't make my mind up about Trent. I can't help feeling that he ought to be a better defender by now. It feels like you need someone as good as Konate and someone like peak Henderson in place in order to mitigate for Trent; two players to compensate for one - is his output that good to justify it? Maybe it is, but I'm not sure. I don't feel it has been this season anyway. He did okay last night but at defending set pieces he's pretty useless (not alone there).

Anyway, we need an awful lot of players this summer. At least one centre back (potentially two; think Gomez and Matip are both done), three midfielders and a forward to provide an alternative to Salah - I think we're at that point now where someone should be lined up as his successor.

 

[Hansern]

When you talk about injuries, switching off and positioning, I agree, but the same could be said for Walker and AWB. And obviously Trent.

The key difference is 1 v 1 battles. Very important in the modern game against explosive wingers.

Trent gets beaten 9 times out of 10 by Vini Jnr. Walker/AWB/James get beaten maybe 3/4 times out of 10. That's huge because key moments in a game swing on such events.

To be honest, it's not even close defensively. I love TAA and believe in a dominant attacking LFC team, I'd prefer him at FB, but the way we are now? We probably need better there too.

Trent 9.5/10 offensively. 4/10 defensively.
James 7.5/10 offensively. 7/10 defensively.

Whatever you believe regarding James, or his ability, neither here nor there, the key point I was making is we need a more balanced FB, defensively and offensively. I just used James as I rate him.

James has had a 3 back line behind him for most of his career and Kante in defensive midfield.
He has struggled a lot more when they have switched to 4 at the back and reshuffled their midfield. Sound familiar with our situation this season?

I'd say:

Trent 5/10 defensively
James 6/10 defensively

James better at 1 on 1 as you say.

The best is probably Walker out of everyone mentioned. But for him its a case of not having any attacking output at all. Even when playing in the best attacking team in the country and with a FIFA 23 player upfront.

 

[ibromurph]

James has had a 3 back line behind him for most of his career and Kante in defensive midfield.
He has struggled a lot more when they have switched to 4 at the back and reshuffled their midfield. Sound familiar with our situation this season?

I'd say:

Trent 5/10 defensively
James 6/10 defensively

James better at 1 on 1 as you say.

The best is probably Walker out of everyone mentioned. But for him its a case of not having any attacking output at all. Even when playing in the best attacking team in the country and with a FIFA 23 player upfront.

I haven't seen the same struggle defensively to be fair. He's been out injured for a lot of their season.

Yes I see the similar positioning and switching off issues of all full backs. But the 1 v 1 battles, he's so far clear. He can also play in a back, as a CB, like Walker. Trent can't perform such a role.

Anyways, I don't want to hijack this thread with our opinions on Reece James.

The main point is, whatever full back that is out there that is a 7.5/10 offensively and defensively, I want to challenge/rotate with TAA.

 

[Hansern]

He has played 15 games this season.

I'd rather have Trent and then hope an injury free Ramsay with a pre season under his belt can be the back up and develop going forward. There are so many other key areas where we need to spend this summer that I dont think spending a lot of money on RB is valid.
If Trent continues to underperform next season with a rebuilt midfield and team then yes, its a priority in 2024.

 

[keniget]

Walker has been such an asset to City - the number of times his pace has bailed them out is ridiculous.

It's also quite dispiriting for attackers (particularly the ones that rely on pace) when the fullback is faster and stronger than you.

 

[bluebell]

James is an improvement defensively than Trent, and it's not a huge drop off offensively either.

I still think if we had 2 decent CBS, and midfielders who could fucking track back or pressure efficiently, the Trent issue would be reduced. He can offer us so much. So so fucking much.

We aren't making top 4, and we're out of the CL. Money will be available to Klopp, and that figure is likely to be £100m + £20m. Which is either 1 Jude + Free Agents or two MF + Free Agents. Not sure how Reese James enters the conversation of viable candidates?

 

[Best Believe It]

I still think we could make top 4 and you've just plucked that figure out of thin air. Don't pretend you know what we have to spend this summer.

 

[Best Believe It]

What's as interesting to me is whether Klopp gets rid of players who are clearly not up to it anymore. Milner, Ox, Keita and Bobby are all out of contract this summer, so the decision could easily be made without any conflict, but there are huge question marks over Fabinho, Matip and Curtis Jones as well as Gomez who is beyond a question mark at this point. We've been too reticent generally to get rid of players who are on the slide and as much as we need to be spending more money, we need to be more ruthless in getting rid of players who aren't at the standard we need (and aren't ever going to be).

 

[Hansern]

Agreed, and it will be interesting to see how ruthless Klopp will be this summer. He definitely needs to get rid of the players that arent up to it anymore.

 

[ibromurph]

Walker has been such an asset to City - the number of times his pace has bailed them out is ridiculous.

It's also quite dispiriting for attackers (particularly the ones that rely on pace) when the fullback is faster and stronger than you.

City only collapsed last year against Real after Walker limped off injured.

Huge asset.

 

[Fabio]

James is overrated and insanely injury prone. He's not much better than Trent defensively if you look beyond this season were Trent has been underperforming.
James also switches off and has problems with his positioning. Their numbers arent even comparable if you look at assists and attacking output, and most importantly staying fit.

James 23 years old 184 games, 14 goals, 23 assists
Trent 24 years old 257 games, 11 goals, 65 assists

I'd rather have Trent.

James being injury prone is probably one of the main issues as to why he's not the answer.

I want the next James. Hopefully thats Ramsay, but based on his injury issues so far we'll see

 

[bluebell]

I still think we could make top 4 and you've just plucked that figure out of thin air. Don't pretend you know what we have to spend this summer.

You are right, I don't know for sure, however going by how FSG have operated prior, its not unreasonable to assume a figure of around £100m considering we won't be in the CL and the loss any sponsorship which relies on CL qualifications.
If we do get 4th then may be I could see them giving Klopp more cash.

 

[Best Believe It]

You are right, I don't know for sure, however going by how FSG have operated prior, its not unreasonable to assume a figure of around £100m considering we won't be in the CL and the loss any sponsorship which relies on CL qualifications

I think there's an acknowledgement from FSG that their previous operating model isn't going to cut it anymore. Given they've been looking for investment I think the idea is that we spunk cash this summer. It's been trailed that we have lots to spend, and we wouldn't be so strongly linked to Bellingham if that's all the money we had to spend this summer - considering we were trying to sign Tchouameni as well as Bellingham.

Maybe you're right, but it would be a massive, massive PR fail if FSG was leaking that they'll back Klopp this summer and then they don't.

 

[StevieM]

You are right, I don't know for sure, however going by how FSG have operated prior, its not unreasonable to assume a figure of around £100m considering we won't be in the CL and the loss any sponsorship which relies on CL qualifications.
If we do get 4th then may be I could see them giving Klopp more cash.

Do you think not being in the Champions League might mean they let Liverpool be a little more expansive in their spending in order to make sure they regain that revenue stream?

 

[StevieM]

I think there's an acknowledgement from FSG that their previous operating model isn't going to cut it anymore. Given they've been looking for investment I think the idea is that we spunk cash this summer. It's been trailed that we have lots to spend, and we wouldn't be so strongly linked to Bellingham if that's all the money we had to spend this summer - considering we were trying to sign Tchouameni as well as Bellingham.

Maybe you're right, but it would be a massive, massive PR fail if FSG was leaking that they'll back Klopp this summer and then they don't.

It’s not the model - the model’s fine - we just need the right people driving it and Klopp to be a little more ruthless and more capable of saying goodbye to people he likes that don’t fuck him off.

That goes for his coaching staff too.

 

[bluebell]

I think there's an acknowledgement from FSG that their previous operating model isn't going to cut it anymore. Given they've been looking for investment I think the idea is that we spunk cash this summer. It's been trailed that we have lots to spend, and we wouldn't be so strongly linked to Bellingham if that's all the money we had to spend this summer - considering we were trying to sign Tchouameni as well as Bellingham.

Maybe you're right, but it would be a massive, massive PR fail if FSG was leaking that they'll back Klopp this summer and then they don't.

FSG got nearly £600m from RedBird Capital which they went and bought a NHL team. They're now looking to buy an NBA team because the TV deals in USTV are getting a lot bigger. So their primary focus is growing their portfolio, and that's how they add value. We have been hearing of a huge transfer pot for Klopp for years now... it hasn't happened. In their eyes they probably see £100m as huge and its a decent wedge if we weren't so starved for years.

Do you think not being in the Champions League might mean they let Liverpool be a little more expansive in their spending in order to make sure they regain that revenue stream?

@StevieM Imagine you're the CEO of Liverpool. So tell me the logic of the following;

1. You operate a sell to buy model but I think 9 players would or will have left on a Free since the start Klopp's tenure
2. A few season's ago, LFC were riding high in the table, top at Christmas, but the whole back line was taken out, you waited till the last day in the window to get a reject from Germany and a Manc Fan who was never good enough to make 1 appearance killing all chance of a back-to-back titles and risking top 4, why?
3. This season the cries were for a MF and FW, you do get a MF and just like a couple of seasons ago, its bottom of the barrel stuff, why did you get crocked MF and not address the situation in the Winter knowing top 4 and CL was at stake?

They came into football admiring the AFC model, they have seen it fail but they are still following it

 

[MaBigTip]

James has had a 3 back line behind him for most of his career and Kante in defensive midfield.
He has struggled a lot more when they have switched to 4 at the back and reshuffled their midfield. Sound familiar with our situation this season?

I'd say:

Trent 5/10 defensively
James 6/10 defensively

James better at 1 on 1 as you say.

The best is probably Walker out of everyone mentioned. But for him its a case of not having any attacking output at all. Even when playing in the best attacking team in the country and with a FIFA 23 player upfront.

I just feel this is unfair to peak Firmino, Salah, Gini, Henderson, Fabinho, Milner, Virgil and Matip. The team was chockablock of smart, great players with lots of legs and the ability to cover just as well as Chelsea's back 3 and Kante. That's why the team was European, World, and English Champions at one point.

 

[tomasjj]

Who's the next Modric? We need to sign him.

Who's the next Kante? We need to sign him.

Who's the next Gerrard? We need to sign him.

Who's the next Reece James (a FB who can defend and attack)? We need to sign him.

James Justin is the Reece James downgraded.

 

[Hansern]

I just feel this is unfair to peak Firmino, Salah, Gini, Henderson, Fabinho, Milner, Virgil and Matip. The team was chockablock of smart, great players with lots of legs and the ability to cover just as well as Chelsea's back 3 and Kante. That's why the team was European, World, and English Champions at one point.

Bar this season I haven really had an issue with Trents defending in all honesty. Yeah, switched off from time to time but all in all good enough.
Thats why I'm saying its close between them.

 

[King Binny]

 

[peekay]

 

[LeTallecWiz]

they're such fucking cunts if this is the case -
"And in other news, business refuses to give bonus to workers after refusing to replace their computers for 6 months."

 

[Beamrider]

11:17 - Beamrider posts "I've said all along that with the Annie Road paid for by the end of this financial year I expect there to be significant money available to spend this summer and I stand by that, but if we don't get Champions League next year then that will take a dent out of that budget."
13:40 - Ornstein quoted as saying "Champions League qualification for next season will have a massive impact on Liverpool’s summer budget."
Spy in the camp lads, watch yourselves. 😉

 

[LeTallecWiz]

11:17 - Beamrider posts "I've said all along that with the Annie Road paid for by the end of this financial year I expect there to be significant money available to spend this summer and I stand by that, but if we don't get Champions League next year then that will take a dent out of that budget."
13:40 - Ornstein quoted as saying "Champions League qualification for next season will have a massive impact on Liverpool’s summer budget."
Spy in the camp lads, watch yourselves. 😉

we're glad to have the real slim ornstein (aka beamrider) with us

 

[Judge Jules]

they're such fucking cunts if this is the case -
"And in other news, business refuses to give bonus to workers after refusing to replace their computers for 6 months."

It's worryingly short-sighted if it's true. All successful clubs strengthen when they're already strong. Had the owners refreshed the squad last summer (Klopp knew it was needed - you could tell he was biting his tongue when questioned about it) I don't reckon our CL qualification for next season would have been in doubt.

 

[bluebell]

@StevieM We can wait till summer, but I don't believe we will spend more than £100m, now that might be enough to get Jude, but I don't know if they'll then try to make up the rest of the transfers using free agents, lets hope so or trade in Nat/Gomez, Matip and CJ to raise £40-65m and get either Mount or Nunes