Signings and the Champions League

[Halmeister]

I was talking with a few mates last night and an interesting point came up. It's probably been mentioned elsewhere but thought I'd give it its own thread.

I was one of the people deeply concerned with our summer activity and who we signed, and I actually dreaded this season once Suarez got off. A lot of people pointed to the money we recouped and how it would add numbers to the squad, and how finishing second - with the new names brought in - would give us the platform to push on and become an attractive proposition again.

However, despite whatever reservations I had about the summer signings and all that, one thing occurred to me last night. The signings we made would have come to Liverpool regardless of whether we finished 2nd or 8th. Finishing in the Champions League places did us no favours, and we did what we always did: signed lower clubs' better players. Something that hasn't exactly worked for us in the period I've been watching football.

So what I'm saying here basically is "is the champions league qualification really important to us pushing on and improving?" We signed all the shite we did this summer under the pretence that we'd be challenging for leagues and playing in the Champions League regularly. But we signed a load of players from lesser clubs and midtable teams. Whereas when we were finishing 6th, 7th and 8th, we still signed shite, but we signed Suarez, Sturridge and Coutinho. Proof there that we'll still find the odd gem, but they're too few and far between.

In short: Is the Champions League really that important to us given that we will usually attractive the same level of player regardless, and invariably piss our transfer budget up the wall anyway?

 

[Modo]

We possibly signed a bunch of hyped up players. Maybe that was the problem.

 

[Halmeister]

We possibly signed a bunch of hyped up players. Maybe that was the problem.

We've always done that for as long as I can remember. Players who have done well on the back of a good season or two, and a good performance against us.

We had almost won the league, and while we had just lost Suarez, people were still optimistic about us challenging. We had £100m to spend... and did what we always did. Spent it on average players from lower clubs.

Sure, the established quality might not have been available, or willing to come to us, but then sit on the money and wait for it to come along. Or try harder.

Basically, finishing 2nd and doing everything we did last year was pointless.

 

[peterhague]

I've been saying for years that we need to build long term and buy the best young players we can with an idea of it coming together a few years down the line. We've broadly followed that path and IMO we're about half way towards it paying off.

I think, in isolation, we can probably finish the job without CL boosted spending, although that would obviously help. The bigger worry is that the top 4 clubs get so entrenched in the next 3 or 4 years with their huge spending power that the gap starts to seem insurmountable, and you get key parts of the 'project' like Sterling or Sturridge just giving up and demanding transfers.

That'd be my concern at us being shut out of the CL.

 

[Halmeister]

I've been saying for years that we need to build long term and buy the best young players we can with an idea of it coming together a few years down the line. We've broadly followed that path and IMO we're about half way towards it paying off.

I think, in isolation, we can probably finish the job without CL boosted spending, although that would obviously help. The bigger worry is that the top 4 clubs get so entrenched in the next 3 or 4 years with their huge spending power that the gap starts to seem insurmountable, and you get key parts of the 'project' like Sterling or Sturridge just giving up and demanding transfers.

That'd be my concern at us being shut out of the CL.

Yeah I suppose your last point there would be, and could be, an issue for us.

We don't seem to have an identifiable plan with how we're spending our money, though. We probably can't compete for established, top level talent. Fair enough. So go get the next superstars as we have done in the past on some occasions.

But what we did this summer seems to be panic-buying and not really thinking ahead. One or two players may be seen as the future, but the rest we've massively overpaid on average players in their prime.

 

[Halmeister]

Who, out of our summer signings, would we have failed to attract without Champions League football this year?

Probably only Balotelli.

Last year is close to being undone already, and it's only 6 months later.

 

[Modo]

The problem arises if the plan having young talented players doesn't pan out. What if we keep struggling in the league. We'll easily lose them to the top four teams in England or to another top team in Europe.
Sterling might be the first departure.

 

[Wizardry]

What would improve this forum immensely is if we could bin the utter crap being spouted about our signings being rubbish or "shite" or poor etc.

We signed Lovren who many judges last season rated the best CB in the country.
We signed Markovic who has looked an absolute superstar in the making at international level
We signed Lallana who was wonderfully creative all season for Southampton, again for England and has largely been good for us.
We signed Can who I actually hadn't seen anything of prior to the signing but plenty of good judges rate him as an exceptional talent.
We signed Moreno who's certainly a much better LB than we had previously and has looked reasonable or excellent in equal measures this season

Who am I forgetting?
We signed Origi who is supposedly one of the great prospects in world football and already a first choice striker for one of the best looking international teams in the world.
We haven't signed Manquillo but have secured first option and he's been, largely, pretty good.

So this utter drivel that so many posters throw out (and I'm not really referring to this thread because it seems to be everywhere) so lazily is like a constant troll effort.

The only player who was a complete head scratcher was Balotelli and there was massive confusion even at his signing regarding who's player he was; the managers or the committee. I said at the time I'd be happy with Mario so long as we still got Eto'o on the free. When we didn't sign him I thought we had a potential waste of money regarding one player.

As regards the thread, my understanding was that CL was vital for Marioand Can. It was also important, though perhaps not vital, for Lallana and Origi (I could certainly be wrong on that one).

What has become clear is that you can secure some good talent to do well in the EPL without the attraction of the CL. Southampton are clear demonstration of that. The question is, would those players be doing as well if they were playing at a club like Liverpool or City where the expectation was so much higher?

 

[Halmeister]

What would improve this forum immensely is if we could bin the utter crap being spouted about our signings being rubbish or "shite" or poor etc.

We signed Lovren who many judges last season rated the best CB in the country.
We signed Markovic who has looked an absolute superstar in the making at international level
We signed Lallana who was wonderfully creative all season for Southampton, again for England and has largely been good for us.
We signed Can who I actually hadn't seen anything of prior to the signing but plenty of good judges rate him as an exceptional talent.
We signed Moreno who's certainly a much better LB than we had previously and has looked reasonable or excellent in equal measures this season

Who am I forgetting?
We signed Origi who is supposedly one of the great prospects in world football and already a first choice striker for one of the best looking international teams in the world.
We haven't signed Manquillo but have secured first option and he's been, largely, pretty good.

So this utter drivel that so many posters throw out so lazily is like a constant troll effort.

The only player who was a complete head scratcher was Balotelli and there was massive confusion even at his signing regarding who's player he was; the managers or the committee. I said at the time I'd be happy with Mario so long as we still got Eto'o on the free. When we didn't sign him I thought we had a potential waste of money regarding one player.

As regards the thread, my understanding was that CL was vital for Marioand Can. It was also important, though perhaps not vital, for Lallana and Origi (I could certainly be wrong on that one).

What has become clear is that you can secure some good talent to do well in the EPL without the attraction of the CL. Southampton are clear demonstration of that. The question is, would those players be doing as well if they were playing at a club like Liverpool or City where the expectation was so much higher?

The only "rubbish" is the stuff on the pitch. You surely can't be defending these signings.

Signing a centreback for £20m on the back of one good season is a recipe for disaster. Especially given there were other, more established and better players available for cheaper.

Markovic is one for the future and could potentially be good. But in a position we're heavily stocked in, at a pivotal point in time for the club, spending so much on him is a head scratcher.

Lallana is a decent player, but again a player who plays in a position we already have a lot of options in, and whose ability doesn't reflect his high fee given other options around.

Can, again, somewhat exempt as he is one for the future, but we really needed a player to come in in that position and be of instant use.

Moreno I think will prove to be a good signing.

I actually don't think the Balotelli signing was that bizarre given the circumstances. Highly rated player with a huge reputation for a relatively low fee. The only issue was, like you've said, getting another striker in with him. Eto'o or Remy.

Southampton will begin to slide down the league as they have done. They hadn't played anyone of note until recently, and they've lost three on the bounce. They've beaten teams you'd expect them to beat which is fair enough. I think they've lost against us, Utd, Ars, City and Spurs now. I don't think they've played Everton or Chelsea, but I'd expect them to lose them, too. Their players are about their level. The level below where we hope to be and the one we keep finding ourselves in. Which probably means we'll sign the lot for highly inflated fees again next summer.

 

[peterhague]

Yeah I suppose your last point there would be, and could be, an issue for us.

We don't seem to have an identifiable plan with how we're spending our money, though. We probably can't compete for established, top level talent. Fair enough. So go get the next superstars as we have done in the past on some occasions.

But what we did this summer seems to be panic-buying and not really thinking ahead. One or two players may be seen as the future, but the rest we've massively overpaid on average players in their prime.

Markovic, Can, Origi, Moreno and to a lesser extent Manquillo all top young players you'd expect to be mature into CL class performers. I think they're all great signings tbh, maybe I'm too optimistic but that's my real opinion right now.

I think the fuck up was the £65m on the senior players. That's not to say I don't think we should supplement long-term signings with more expensive established players - I do - but where you're paying that premium it needs to be on areas genuinely lacking a bit of finesse or leadership and experience. We got that terribly wrong in the summer. I blame Rodgers for Lallana and Lovren - I find it impossible to believe they weren't his choices. Same old ludicrously overpriced and overrated PL players, generally having come off the best season of their career. Balotelli was the ultimate result of a general lack of planning for life after Suarez, because to this day I'm not convinced Rodgers knows how he wants to set up the new attack. The less said about Lambert the better.

 

[Wizardry]

So you claim that the signings can't be defended and then you basically justify all of them with the exception of Lovren who you think was overpriced.

We don't have so much cover that players like Markovic or Lallana weren't important buys - Lallana as he adds value now and Markovic because he's needed now rather than when he's rated at 45m in 3 years time.



The Saints are doing better than you're giving them credit for; they've got good football, creating chances, a solid defense and Koeman has got them gelling well together.


We need to get players like Markovic, Can, Origi etc when we can and that was in the summer. They could have been expected to gel faster but that's the main problem IMO. With that, as I said, Mario and Can (and Lovren - forgot to mention him) I understand weren't coming without CL. Lallana and Origi found it a major incentive.

I'd have been fine without Mario but I think we needed CL to get much of the other talent - and it's major talent - to come to the club. We need, IMO, another season of qualifying for the CL to really be an attractive proposition. We've been out of the CL for too long and coming in on last season was always going to have question marks as to whether we were a one off or whether we were here to stay.

 

[Halmeister]

So you claim that the signings can't be defended and then you basically justify all of them with the exception of Lovren who you think was overpriced.

We don't have so much cover that players like Markovic or Lallana weren't important buys - Lallana as he adds value now and Markovic because he's needed now rather than when he's rated at 45m in 3 years time.



The Saints are doing better than you're giving them credit for; they've got good football, creating chances, a solid defense and Koeman has got them gelling well together.


We need to get players like Markovic, Can, Origi etc when we can and that was in the summer. They could have been expected to gel faster but that's the main problem IMO. With that, as I said, Mario and Can (and Lovren - forgot to mention him) I understand weren't coming without CL. Lallana and Origi found it a major incentive.

I'd have been fine without Mario but I think we needed CL to get much of the other talent - and it's major talent - to come to the club. We need, IMO, another season of qualifying for the CL to really be an attractive proposition. We've been out of the CL for too long and coming in on last season was always going to have question marks as to whether we were a one off or whether we were here to stay.

I think the only justifiable ones are the young ones who could improve and pay back their fees. I was against signing Lovren and Lallana because I didn't think they'd improve us and they haven't. Balotelli was understandable given the timing and what was available, and the rest are largely punts on younger players. I would have stayed a million miles away from Lambert.

I think signing one of Lallana or Markovic would have been the way to go, if either, and out of the two I would have gone for Markovic and his potential. Sterling, Coutinho, Ibe, Gerrard, Suso, Markovic would have been enough in the attacking positions behind the striker without spending another £25m on a player we didn't desperately need in relation to other areas in the team. A defensive midfielder was hugely important this summer and we didn't sign one.

We'll see about Soton. They'll drop down the league and battle it out with us in the 5th/6th/7th/8th positions. Just as they did last year.

The likes of Can and Lovren may have been demanding CL, but they're definitely not CL players. Yet, we contrived to spend CL fees on them. We could have done a lot better - than Lovren especially. The jury is still out on Can. I think he'll be decent enough.

I agree and disagree with your last point in equal measure. I think the level of player we've signed would have come regardless of CL or not. Mario being the only exception. Another season of CL qualification would see us doing the same thing we've done over the last 10/15 years of CL qualification - signing average players from teams below us, with the odd gem. I think it's largely irrelevant whether we qualify for the CL or not because we won't spend it on CL quality players. Utd have gone out and bought Di Maria without CL, and I know it's under different circumstances, but it shows CL qualification can be irrelevant when signing quality.

 

[Halmeister]

I've just realised Wizardry may have been responding to Peter.

 

[Halmeister]

"Major talent" I have issue with. Is it? Did we really sign these players based on CL qualification? Would we have missed out on them if we'd finished 5th? They seem a bit meh, and of the same calibre we have in abundance.

I think in two years time we'll be in the same position as we've found ourselves over the last 3 or 4 years. Just without Gerrard.

 

[peekay]

In general our transfers are shit. When we qualify for CL we spend more money on shit with the excuse that all great players want to go to London or want high wages. When we don't we spend less money on shit with the excuse that no one wants to sign for us. Once in a blue moon we pull out a rabbit out a hat in the form of Suarez, Torres, Alonso and thank f*** we had Steven Gerrard for the last decade and odd.

 

[Holle]

Lovren is clearly not shit. If he's worth 20 million could be discussed - but he is not shit.

If you watch what and how he's done for Southampton last season you can clearly see that he can be a very, very good CB.

Maybe, just maybe it has something to do with a lack of coaching and the inability of players around him.

A goalkeeper with zero confidence, CBs which simply don't seem to understand the fundamentals of positioning at times, full backs getting caught time and time again and a defensive midfield which doesn't even deserve its name sometimes - even Maldini would have looked clueless.

Leave him alone FFS.

 

[Rosco]

Re Lovren he played last year in a team with two decent defensive midfielders, and in a defence with one full back who could defend.

He's now in a team with no good defensive midfielders and no full backs that can defend. Of course he's worse this year.

Anyway in the last ten years we've tried leaving the manager on his own to sign players, tried a DOF, and now the transfer committee - none of them with any real consistent success.
We've changed our scouts repeatedly too.

Yet we still get it wrong more than right. And so do the majority of football teams - and that shouldn't be an excuse. It's a sign that something is fundamentally wrong with how people in the business go about signing players.

If you look through the list of players we signed for the past decade you can see the patterns.

 

[keniget]

Lovren is clearly not shit. If he's worth 20 million could be discussed - but he is not shit.

If you watch what and how he's done for Southampton last season you can clearly see that he can be a very, very good CB.

Maybe, just maybe it has something to do with a lack of coaching and the inability of players around him.

A goalkeeper with zero confidence, CBs which simply don't seem to understand the fundamentals of positioning at times, full backs getting caught time and time again and a defensive midfield which doesn't even deserve its name sometimes - even Maldini would have looked clueless.

Leave him alone FFS.

 

[Silver Sean]

We seem to be the only club that can't attract top players even when we are in it. United aren't in it but they attracted Di Maria and Falcao. We get in it and we attract Lambert and Markovic.
Oh and I disagree. Lovren is garbage.

 

[Holle]

Oh and I disagree. Lovren is garbage.

Which further proves my point.

 

[Dahuge]

Looking at the transfers that we made the issue is that we didn't buy any players that were significantly better than what we had, same old Liverpool story.

Instead of buying Lallana or Markovic to add depth we should have gone for higher quality player and a potential star, that applies to all the signings we made from fullbacks to midfielders to strikers.

We do the same thing everytime we spend big. Logic tells you that if you buy a world class player who comes straight into the team the squad is by default stronger as the person replaced goes to the bench..

 

[hmmmmm1]

Its a shame we didn't use the carrot of champions league to get a player like di maria....

 

[Best Believe It]

Its a shame we didn't use the carrot of champions league to get a player like di maria....

We would have had to pay £60 million and there's no way the board would have sanctioned it.

 

[Silver Sean]

Which further proves my point.

How? Are you inferring that because I don't think he's any good that is proof that he is?

 

[redroll]

Lovren will come good. He just needs some good players around him.

 

[Holle]

How? Are you inferring that because I don't think he's any good that is proof that he is?

Nah. Why is it that you think he is shit?

 

[jexykrodic]

We seem to be the only club that can't attract top players even when we are in it. United aren't in it but they attracted Di Maria and Falcao. We get in it and we attract Lambert and Markovic.
Oh and I disagree. Lovren is garbage.

Money, they have it and spend it; we don't and can't.

Liverpool pay mid table wages as well, Chelsea, Arsenal, City and United all spend more.

You either get lucky or you pay up.

 

[keniget]

I think fans often tend to overestimate the clubs pulling power.

If I'm a star player like Di Maria contemplating a move, I'd view Liverpool as a hugely risky gamble that I don't need to make.

Yeah, they're back in the CL but it's their first time back after a fairly long absence. Are they going to get back in the following year? Chelsea look really strong, Utd are spending huge amounts and then there is City and Arsenal, not to mention some of the other teams. It's a very competitive league and recently Liverpool haven't been competitive. Was last year a blip?

They've just lost their best player.

Have they got any other big names in the side? Aside from a 34 year old Gerrard, not really.

They're managed by Brendan who?

Who else are they signing? A bunch of 21 year olds. That's a team for the future, not for now and I'm 26 in my prime.

Can they pay me the 200k a week I'd get elsewhere? No.

If I want to move, how easy will that be? Not very.

 

[hmmmmm1]

Money talks, if silly money was offered to Sanchez, no doubt he would have **convinced** his wife.

 

[Best Believe It]

Money talks, if silly money was offered to Sanchez, no doubt he would have **convinced** his wife.

What counts as silly money? We offered him more than Arsenal did.