Sam urges reds owners to back Hodgson
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It's like the oft repeated truism - rafa had to go.
I don't really get that. It's a completely unqualified statement - so anyone agreeing with it would logically have to answer yes to the question "is the situation better now".
If rafa HAD to go then anything else is preferable.
I can understand a qualified statement: "if we can appoint a better manager, I'd rather rafa was gone" and I might even agree with it.
But precious few seem to have been saying that.
I don't really get that. It's a completely unqualified statement - so anyone agreeing with it would logically have to answer yes to the question "is the situation better now".
If rafa HAD to go then anything else is preferable.
I can understand a qualified statement: "if we can appoint a better manager, I'd rather rafa was gone" and I might even agree with it.
But precious few seem to have been saying that.
I was very much pissed off with Rafa by the end up, though I was with him right up until late-ish, but I was very much in the we need to replace him with a quality manager. I knew from the get-go that Roy was not that man. I'd certainly rather stick when I know the twist is shite.
S
Squiggles
Guest
Roy hasn't pissed off as many people in the media as Rafa managed to.
It's why they haven't turned on him yet, and even if and when they do, I imagine they will be more graceful than the were to Benitez.
It's why they haven't turned on him yet, and even if and when they do, I imagine they will be more graceful than the were to Benitez.
[quote author=dirtyho link=topic=42390.msg1204224#msg1204224 date=1287850876]
Thanks for the research that proves my general recollection peter.
Whatever your criticisms of Benitez's team, having a "shit defence" should not be one of them unless you enjoy having those sort of numbers rubbed in your face. Under Benitez we had one of the best defences in the league - only someone with the memory of a goldfish would argue with that.
[/quote]
don't know about that mate...
2005/06
- Kept clean sheets in each of their opening 4 league games for the 1st time in the club’s history.
- Liverpool set a new club record of 11 consecutive clean sheets (Oct-Dec 2005).
- Went 762 minutes without conceding a league goal (a post-war club record).
- Conceded only 8 league goals at home – their 3rd best total ever.
2006/07
- Pepe Reina kept more clean sheets in his first 50 league games (28) than any other goalkeeper in the club’s history.
- Conceded only 7 league goals at home – best total for 28 years.
2007/08
- Pepe Reina kept his 50th league clean sheet in his 92nd appearance – breaking club record of 95 held by Ray Clemence.
- Pepe Reina kept 54 clean sheets in his first 100 league games to break the club record held by Ray Clemence.
- Pepe Reina won the Golden Glove for the 3rd successive season.
2008/09
- Pepe Reina kept his 100th clean sheet in the fastest time in Liverpool history (197 games).
2009/10
- Pepe Reina set a new club record of most clean sheets (79) in first 150 league games.
Thanks for the research that proves my general recollection peter.
Whatever your criticisms of Benitez's team, having a "shit defence" should not be one of them unless you enjoy having those sort of numbers rubbed in your face. Under Benitez we had one of the best defences in the league - only someone with the memory of a goldfish would argue with that.
[/quote]
don't know about that mate...
2005/06
- Kept clean sheets in each of their opening 4 league games for the 1st time in the club’s history.
- Liverpool set a new club record of 11 consecutive clean sheets (Oct-Dec 2005).
- Went 762 minutes without conceding a league goal (a post-war club record).
- Conceded only 8 league goals at home – their 3rd best total ever.
2006/07
- Pepe Reina kept more clean sheets in his first 50 league games (28) than any other goalkeeper in the club’s history.
- Conceded only 7 league goals at home – best total for 28 years.
2007/08
- Pepe Reina kept his 50th league clean sheet in his 92nd appearance – breaking club record of 95 held by Ray Clemence.
- Pepe Reina kept 54 clean sheets in his first 100 league games to break the club record held by Ray Clemence.
- Pepe Reina won the Golden Glove for the 3rd successive season.
2008/09
- Pepe Reina kept his 100th clean sheet in the fastest time in Liverpool history (197 games).
2009/10
- Pepe Reina set a new club record of most clean sheets (79) in first 150 league games.
Lots of ownage in this thread
S
Squiggles
Guest
I think Rafa had to go, because to me at least, he had lost the squad and results were bad. When this happens it's extremely difficult to get everyone back on board and motivated. Couple this with no silverware for four years and some desperately bad transfer buys, I think it all adds up to him having to leave. I think he had lost his vision of how he wished this club to be and had just alienated too many people at the club - most importantly Paco and Xabi Alonso - to be able to stay on.
Obviously I would prefer him to Roy, and obviously I wish we had replaced him with someone much better - but I stand by the notion that the idea of replacing Benitez was right. That said, it's clear is we should have stuck with him if we couldn't attract a good enough manager to replace him. We should have sent a few feelers out before we removed Benitez. I also think we were guilty of buying into the media hype surrounding Hodgson, rather the relying on logic and good reasoning.
Obviously I would prefer him to Roy, and obviously I wish we had replaced him with someone much better - but I stand by the notion that the idea of replacing Benitez was right. That said, it's clear is we should have stuck with him if we couldn't attract a good enough manager to replace him. We should have sent a few feelers out before we removed Benitez. I also think we were guilty of buying into the media hype surrounding Hodgson, rather the relying on logic and good reasoning.
[quote author=dirtyho link=topic=42390.msg1204235#msg1204235 date=1287852930]
I can't help but feel it's xenophobia. What other rational explanation is there?
[/quote]
i honestly don't know. could be that, could be something personal, could be stupidity.
but it must be something when we still have to put up with quacking fuckwits spouting absoulute horseshit about him spending £250m and the like.
yes, he had faults, yes he made errors - big ones - but i've never known anyone to get so little credit for his achievements, it's staggering. some of the stuff people pin on him is breathtaking: graeme 'legacy' souness this week, of all fucking people, saying how he needed to take responsibility for the state he'd left the club in, and that roy hodgson had taken over liverpool at the most difficult time since shankly's arrival.
I can't help but feel it's xenophobia. What other rational explanation is there?
[/quote]
i honestly don't know. could be that, could be something personal, could be stupidity.
but it must be something when we still have to put up with quacking fuckwits spouting absoulute horseshit about him spending £250m and the like.
yes, he had faults, yes he made errors - big ones - but i've never known anyone to get so little credit for his achievements, it's staggering. some of the stuff people pin on him is breathtaking: graeme 'legacy' souness this week, of all fucking people, saying how he needed to take responsibility for the state he'd left the club in, and that roy hodgson had taken over liverpool at the most difficult time since shankly's arrival.
[quote author=dirtyho link=topic=42390.msg1204235#msg1204235 date=1287852930]
I can't help but feel it's xenophobia. What other rational explanation is there?
[/quote]
Spot on. I would also add that Rafa's squad was so shit only Barca had more players in the last world cup. No wonder we're in 19th place.
I can't help but feel it's xenophobia. What other rational explanation is there?
[/quote]
Spot on. I would also add that Rafa's squad was so shit only Barca had more players in the last world cup. No wonder we're in 19th place.
[quote author=KopKing link=topic=42390.msg1204257#msg1204257 date=1287857449]
[quote author=dirtyho link=topic=42390.msg1204235#msg1204235 date=1287852930]
I can't help but feel it's xenophobia. What other rational explanation is there?
[/quote]
Spot on. I would also add that Rafa's squad was so shit only Barca had more players in the last world cup. No wonder we're in 19th place.
[/quote]
Rafa's squad wasn't very strong, but it is cerrtainly better than what Hodgson has done with it.
And whilst Rafa's supporters are now currently enjoying themselves on their own Night of the Long Goatee, the mistake wasn't in replacing him, but in replacing him with rubbish.
[quote author=dirtyho link=topic=42390.msg1204235#msg1204235 date=1287852930]
I can't help but feel it's xenophobia. What other rational explanation is there?
[/quote]
Spot on. I would also add that Rafa's squad was so shit only Barca had more players in the last world cup. No wonder we're in 19th place.
[/quote]
Rafa's squad wasn't very strong, but it is cerrtainly better than what Hodgson has done with it.
And whilst Rafa's supporters are now currently enjoying themselves on their own Night of the Long Goatee, the mistake wasn't in replacing him, but in replacing him with rubbish.
Finishing 7th - yeah because they were all licking his arse like Ferguson before that weren't they?
plainly lost the dressing room - absolute conjecture, none of us really know
kept ranting shite in the media - translation wouldn't play their game the way they wanted it played
Whatever - maybe it's not xenophobia - he got a hard time considering his record none the less
Rafa had a lot of enemies in the English game for whatever reason and a lot of the comments you hear these days reflect that - that and the fact that it's easier than to actually provide a proper analysis of the situation.
I wasn't always happy with the way Rafa handled things with the media and his rivals, but give me his approach any day over Hodgson bending over whilst all his chums queue up from behind.
Even if he stays and improves markedly, I don't think I could ever ever warm to him after the last few months. Now I know how guys like Oncey felt about Rafa.
I wasn't always happy with the way Rafa handled things with the media and his rivals, but give me his approach any day over Hodgson bending over whilst all his chums queue up from behind.
Even if he stays and improves markedly, I don't think I could ever ever warm to him after the last few months. Now I know how guys like Oncey felt about Rafa.
[quote author=dirtyho link=topic=42390.msg1204267#msg1204267 date=1287860733]
Finishing 7th - yeah because they were all licking his arse like Ferguson before that weren't they?
plainly lost the dressing room - absolute conjecture, none of us really know
kept ranting shite in the media - translation wouldn't play their game the way they wanted it played
Whatever - maybe it's not xenophobia - he got a hard time considering his record none the less
[/quote]
The main reason why he got a hard time is because he wouldnt play at their game, I think.
And he was 100% right in doing so, his only mistake I think was that you only manage to fob off the media when you have the results to back it up.
Once you stop winning then the sharks come back for you.
Take his Fergie rant.
It was initially brilliant because it forced the media and the referees to (rightly) pay greater attention to Ginsoak; but once our own results became poor it was all too easy to paint him as having lost the plot.
The reason why I don't think xenophobia is the reason is because the same media who vilified Rafa idolized Mourinho.
Finishing 7th - yeah because they were all licking his arse like Ferguson before that weren't they?
plainly lost the dressing room - absolute conjecture, none of us really know
kept ranting shite in the media - translation wouldn't play their game the way they wanted it played
Whatever - maybe it's not xenophobia - he got a hard time considering his record none the less
[/quote]
The main reason why he got a hard time is because he wouldnt play at their game, I think.
And he was 100% right in doing so, his only mistake I think was that you only manage to fob off the media when you have the results to back it up.
Once you stop winning then the sharks come back for you.
Take his Fergie rant.
It was initially brilliant because it forced the media and the referees to (rightly) pay greater attention to Ginsoak; but once our own results became poor it was all too easy to paint him as having lost the plot.
The reason why I don't think xenophobia is the reason is because the same media who vilified Rafa idolized Mourinho.
[quote author=dirtyho link=topic=42390.msg1204267#msg1204267 date=1287860733]
Finishing 7th - yeah because they were all licking his arse like Ferguson before that weren't they?
plainly lost the dressing room - absolute conjecture, none of us really know
kept ranting shite in the media - translation wouldn't play their game the way they wanted it played
Whatever - maybe it's not xenophobia - he got a hard time considering his record none the less
[/quote]
i think they basically just didn't like him, more than anything else. quite early on i think he seemed to be marked out as difficult and 'not one of us', could be things like:
- not shaking allardyce's hand at reebok
- not celebrating goals
- calling everton a 'small' club
- the fa cup exit at burnley
- denying mourinho credit for chelsea - calling it for abramovich
- refusing to play gerrard in CM, and then proving them wrong, first at right midfield, then behind torres
- too vocal about lack of funds
- using fancy and suicidal zonal marking system but still daring to establish a brilliant defensive record
- that 'beyond the pale' gesture against blackburn, which was completely misrepresented by the media. i bet if you asked every pundit about that, about 90% would still take ferguson's version as gospel
i wouldn't say it was xenophobia exactly, but i think there might have been thinking along the lines that he was rather 'unbritish'.
i certainly think quite early on a myth was got up that he had a lot of money to spend, when it was fairly modest until H&G came in. i think 07/08 was the first year even his most demanding observer could have reasonably expected us to mount a sustained title challenge; i think he suffered from completely unrealistic expectations after the CL win. if we'd got 4h that year but been knocked out of the CL at, say, the QFs, then i think people would've rightly seen the next 2 seasons as amazing progress, but unfortunately most people are stupid and have short memories.
also, although i don't really doubt that it's true, i've always been a bit puzzled about his image as being difficult with the media. i always seemed to see him smiling and joking in press conferences and only ever being polite in interviews, so i'm not sure what we're missing.
i've got no doubt, overall, though, that the media were excessively negative about him when he was here - and almost disgracefully so now.
Finishing 7th - yeah because they were all licking his arse like Ferguson before that weren't they?
plainly lost the dressing room - absolute conjecture, none of us really know
kept ranting shite in the media - translation wouldn't play their game the way they wanted it played
Whatever - maybe it's not xenophobia - he got a hard time considering his record none the less
[/quote]
i think they basically just didn't like him, more than anything else. quite early on i think he seemed to be marked out as difficult and 'not one of us', could be things like:
- not shaking allardyce's hand at reebok
- not celebrating goals
- calling everton a 'small' club
- the fa cup exit at burnley
- denying mourinho credit for chelsea - calling it for abramovich
- refusing to play gerrard in CM, and then proving them wrong, first at right midfield, then behind torres
- too vocal about lack of funds
- using fancy and suicidal zonal marking system but still daring to establish a brilliant defensive record
- that 'beyond the pale' gesture against blackburn, which was completely misrepresented by the media. i bet if you asked every pundit about that, about 90% would still take ferguson's version as gospel
i wouldn't say it was xenophobia exactly, but i think there might have been thinking along the lines that he was rather 'unbritish'.
i certainly think quite early on a myth was got up that he had a lot of money to spend, when it was fairly modest until H&G came in. i think 07/08 was the first year even his most demanding observer could have reasonably expected us to mount a sustained title challenge; i think he suffered from completely unrealistic expectations after the CL win. if we'd got 4h that year but been knocked out of the CL at, say, the QFs, then i think people would've rightly seen the next 2 seasons as amazing progress, but unfortunately most people are stupid and have short memories.
also, although i don't really doubt that it's true, i've always been a bit puzzled about his image as being difficult with the media. i always seemed to see him smiling and joking in press conferences and only ever being polite in interviews, so i'm not sure what we're missing.
i've got no doubt, overall, though, that the media were excessively negative about him when he was here - and almost disgracefully so now.
This neatly explains why the English media adores Jose Mourinho
Rafa had to go because, amongst other things, he guaranteed 4th and ended up 7th.
Problem wasn't his that LFC recruited a poorer manager to replace him!
Problem wasn't his that LFC recruited a poorer manager to replace him!
[quote author=Avmenon link=topic=42390.msg1204273#msg1204273 date=1287862654]
[quote author=dirtyho link=topic=42390.msg1204267#msg1204267 date=1287860733]
Finishing 7th - yeah because they were all licking his arse like Ferguson before that weren't they?
plainly lost the dressing room - absolute conjecture, none of us really know
kept ranting shite in the media - translation wouldn't play their game the way they wanted it played
Whatever - maybe it's not xenophobia - he got a hard time considering his record none the less
[/quote]
The main reason why he got a hard time is because he wouldnt play at their game, I think.
And he was 100% right in doing so, his only mistake I think was that you only manage to fob off the media when you have the results to back it up.
Once you stop winning then the sharks come back for you.
Take his Fergie rant.
It was initially brilliant because it forced the media and the referees to (rightly) pay greater attention to Ginsoak; but once our own results became poor it was all too easy to paint him as having lost the plot.
The reason why I don't think xenophobia is the reason is because the same media who vilified Rafa idolized Mourinho.
[/quote]
i thought that was always disastrous because to the english press just the act of starting mind games with ferguson is confirmation that ferguson's beaten you at mind games. they were always going to paint it as him cracking up. the thinking seems to be that whatever ferguson does in a pshychological battle is the right thing by definition because he's the 'master of mind games'.
he really should've known better.
[quote author=dirtyho link=topic=42390.msg1204267#msg1204267 date=1287860733]
Finishing 7th - yeah because they were all licking his arse like Ferguson before that weren't they?
plainly lost the dressing room - absolute conjecture, none of us really know
kept ranting shite in the media - translation wouldn't play their game the way they wanted it played
Whatever - maybe it's not xenophobia - he got a hard time considering his record none the less
[/quote]
The main reason why he got a hard time is because he wouldnt play at their game, I think.
And he was 100% right in doing so, his only mistake I think was that you only manage to fob off the media when you have the results to back it up.
Once you stop winning then the sharks come back for you.
Take his Fergie rant.
It was initially brilliant because it forced the media and the referees to (rightly) pay greater attention to Ginsoak; but once our own results became poor it was all too easy to paint him as having lost the plot.
The reason why I don't think xenophobia is the reason is because the same media who vilified Rafa idolized Mourinho.
[/quote]
i thought that was always disastrous because to the english press just the act of starting mind games with ferguson is confirmation that ferguson's beaten you at mind games. they were always going to paint it as him cracking up. the thinking seems to be that whatever ferguson does in a pshychological battle is the right thing by definition because he's the 'master of mind games'.
he really should've known better.
[quote author=peterhague link=topic=42390.msg1204209#msg1204209 date=1287848002]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=42390.msg1204196#msg1204196 date=1287846939]
[quote author=dirtyho link=topic=42390.msg1204192#msg1204192 date=1287846764]
Oh really? So much so that the season before last (which for the record I see as a blip and linked to the nightmarish ownership situation) we came second and lost two games all season. Well i'm sure hodgson can improve on that shit defence. Oh I just looked at the table - maybe not....
[/quote]
Apples and oranges.
Go and look at how many goals we conceded in the last two seasons, is it better or worse than the two before that ?
Why is that ? - I'm saying it's because of bringing in a shite coach in that useless Argie fucker, and signing bad defenders like Johnson, Degen, Aurelio et al.
[/quote]
liverpool goals conceded:
2002/03 - 41
2003/04 - 37
2004/05 - 41
2005/06 - 25
2006/07 - 27
2007/08 - 28
2008/09 - 27
2009/10 - 35
i mean - thanks for the insight. the trend's so fucking clear isn't it: almost deliberate vandalism of a parsimoious houllier defence!
[/quote]
Is it ?
In 04/05 we had all Houllier's players playing at the back up until January, we had conceded 15 goals by January, but once Pellegrino was brought in for Henchoz and Hyypia was rested for a lot of league games we contrived to concede another 26 goals, largely thanks to Pellegrino. Basically we could have been a lot better at the back had we played our first choice players in the league.
Our back four in 05/06 was Riise, Carragher, Hyypia, Finnan. i.e. a reworked Houllier defence. 25 goals.
Long story short, we added the likes of Aurelio, Insua, Konchesky - none of them are as good as Riise. We added Kyrgiakos, Agger, Paletta, Skrtel, none are better than Hyppia. We added Johnson, Degen, Kromkamp and none were as good as Finnan.
So basically our back four now isn't as good as it was at the beginning. Because of lots of bad additions, particularly in the last three years.
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=42390.msg1204196#msg1204196 date=1287846939]
[quote author=dirtyho link=topic=42390.msg1204192#msg1204192 date=1287846764]
Oh really? So much so that the season before last (which for the record I see as a blip and linked to the nightmarish ownership situation) we came second and lost two games all season. Well i'm sure hodgson can improve on that shit defence. Oh I just looked at the table - maybe not....
[/quote]
Apples and oranges.
Go and look at how many goals we conceded in the last two seasons, is it better or worse than the two before that ?
Why is that ? - I'm saying it's because of bringing in a shite coach in that useless Argie fucker, and signing bad defenders like Johnson, Degen, Aurelio et al.
[/quote]
liverpool goals conceded:
2002/03 - 41
2003/04 - 37
2004/05 - 41
2005/06 - 25
2006/07 - 27
2007/08 - 28
2008/09 - 27
2009/10 - 35
i mean - thanks for the insight. the trend's so fucking clear isn't it: almost deliberate vandalism of a parsimoious houllier defence!
[/quote]
Is it ?
In 04/05 we had all Houllier's players playing at the back up until January, we had conceded 15 goals by January, but once Pellegrino was brought in for Henchoz and Hyypia was rested for a lot of league games we contrived to concede another 26 goals, largely thanks to Pellegrino. Basically we could have been a lot better at the back had we played our first choice players in the league.
Our back four in 05/06 was Riise, Carragher, Hyypia, Finnan. i.e. a reworked Houllier defence. 25 goals.
Long story short, we added the likes of Aurelio, Insua, Konchesky - none of them are as good as Riise. We added Kyrgiakos, Agger, Paletta, Skrtel, none are better than Hyppia. We added Johnson, Degen, Kromkamp and none were as good as Finnan.
So basically our back four now isn't as good as it was at the beginning. Because of lots of bad additions, particularly in the last three years.
It wouldnt have been disastrous if we were winning though; I think if we had kept winning and Ferguson's bullying and intimidation was sussed out, Rafa would have been in a very strong position.
We'd be seeing crap in the media about the 'end of an era'; and how it took a 'Spanish Armada' to show us the truth, that so much of the success that Ferguson had been achieved throuh foul means etc etc etc..
Unfortunately, we stopped winning and it as only too easy to publish the 'Rafa's cracked under pressure' and he's 'lost the mind-gmaes with the master of mind-games'.
We'd be seeing crap in the media about the 'end of an era'; and how it took a 'Spanish Armada' to show us the truth, that so much of the success that Ferguson had been achieved throuh foul means etc etc etc..
Unfortunately, we stopped winning and it as only too easy to publish the 'Rafa's cracked under pressure' and he's 'lost the mind-gmaes with the master of mind-games'.
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=42390.msg1204280#msg1204280 date=1287864283]
[quote author=peterhague link=topic=42390.msg1204209#msg1204209 date=1287848002]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=42390.msg1204196#msg1204196 date=1287846939]
[quote author=dirtyho link=topic=42390.msg1204192#msg1204192 date=1287846764]
Oh really? So much so that the season before last (which for the record I see as a blip and linked to the nightmarish ownership situation) we came second and lost two games all season. Well i'm sure hodgson can improve on that shit defence. Oh I just looked at the table - maybe not....
[/quote]
Apples and oranges.
Go and look at how many goals we conceded in the last two seasons, is it better or worse than the two before that ?
Why is that ? - I'm saying it's because of bringing in a shite coach in that useless Argie fucker, and signing bad defenders like Johnson, Degen, Aurelio et al.
[/quote]
liverpool goals conceded:
2002/03 - 41
2003/04 - 37
2004/05 - 41
2005/06 - 25
2006/07 - 27
2007/08 - 28
2008/09 - 27
2009/10 - 35
i mean - thanks for the insight. the trend's so fucking clear isn't it: almost deliberate vandalism of a parsimoious houllier defence!
[/quote]
Is it ?
In 04/05 we had all Houllier's players playing at the back up until January, we had conceded 15 goals by January, but once Pellegrino was brought in for Henchoz and Hyypia was rested for a lot of league games we contrived to concede another 26 goals, largely thanks to Pellegrino. Basically we could have been a lot better at the back had we played our first choice players in the league.
Our back four in 05/06 was Riise, Carragher, Hyypia, Finnan. i.e. a reworked Houllier defence. 25 goals.
Long story short, we added the likes of Aurelio, Insua, Konchesky - none of them are as good as Riise. We added Kyrgiakos, Agger, Paletta, Skrtel, none are better than Hyppia. We added Johnson, Degen, Kromkamp and none were as good as Finnan.
So basically our back four now isn't as good as it was at the beginning. Because of lots of bad additions, particularly in the last three years.
[/quote]
long story short, you were talking bollocks, and everyone could see it.
[quote author=peterhague link=topic=42390.msg1204209#msg1204209 date=1287848002]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=42390.msg1204196#msg1204196 date=1287846939]
[quote author=dirtyho link=topic=42390.msg1204192#msg1204192 date=1287846764]
Oh really? So much so that the season before last (which for the record I see as a blip and linked to the nightmarish ownership situation) we came second and lost two games all season. Well i'm sure hodgson can improve on that shit defence. Oh I just looked at the table - maybe not....
[/quote]
Apples and oranges.
Go and look at how many goals we conceded in the last two seasons, is it better or worse than the two before that ?
Why is that ? - I'm saying it's because of bringing in a shite coach in that useless Argie fucker, and signing bad defenders like Johnson, Degen, Aurelio et al.
[/quote]
liverpool goals conceded:
2002/03 - 41
2003/04 - 37
2004/05 - 41
2005/06 - 25
2006/07 - 27
2007/08 - 28
2008/09 - 27
2009/10 - 35
i mean - thanks for the insight. the trend's so fucking clear isn't it: almost deliberate vandalism of a parsimoious houllier defence!
[/quote]
Is it ?
In 04/05 we had all Houllier's players playing at the back up until January, we had conceded 15 goals by January, but once Pellegrino was brought in for Henchoz and Hyypia was rested for a lot of league games we contrived to concede another 26 goals, largely thanks to Pellegrino. Basically we could have been a lot better at the back had we played our first choice players in the league.
Our back four in 05/06 was Riise, Carragher, Hyypia, Finnan. i.e. a reworked Houllier defence. 25 goals.
Long story short, we added the likes of Aurelio, Insua, Konchesky - none of them are as good as Riise. We added Kyrgiakos, Agger, Paletta, Skrtel, none are better than Hyppia. We added Johnson, Degen, Kromkamp and none were as good as Finnan.
So basically our back four now isn't as good as it was at the beginning. Because of lots of bad additions, particularly in the last three years.
[/quote]
long story short, you were talking bollocks, and everyone could see it.
[quote author=Avmenon link=topic=42390.msg1204282#msg1204282 date=1287864448]
It wouldnt have been disastrous if we were winning though; I think if we had kept winning and Ferguson's bullying and intimidation was sussed out, Rafa would have been in a very strong position.
We'd be seeing crap in the media about the 'end of an era'; and how it took a 'Spanish Armada' to show us the truth, that so much of the success that Ferguson had been achieved throuh foul means etc etc etc..
Unfortunately, we stopped winning and it as only too easy to publish the 'Rafa's cracked under pressure' and he's 'lost the mind-gmaes with the master of mind-games'.
[/quote]
i totally disagree with you, but it's mostly guesswork. all i'd really say is that as far as i remember, right from the very first day it was being reported here disparagingly as 'rafa's rant' and as basically an eccentric development.
It wouldnt have been disastrous if we were winning though; I think if we had kept winning and Ferguson's bullying and intimidation was sussed out, Rafa would have been in a very strong position.
We'd be seeing crap in the media about the 'end of an era'; and how it took a 'Spanish Armada' to show us the truth, that so much of the success that Ferguson had been achieved throuh foul means etc etc etc..
Unfortunately, we stopped winning and it as only too easy to publish the 'Rafa's cracked under pressure' and he's 'lost the mind-gmaes with the master of mind-games'.
[/quote]
i totally disagree with you, but it's mostly guesswork. all i'd really say is that as far as i remember, right from the very first day it was being reported here disparagingly as 'rafa's rant' and as basically an eccentric development.
That did seem to be the majority opinion on here, and it was an eccentric thing to do, but Avvy has a point IMO. There began to be more articles in the press about Ferguson's appalling behaviour and the Premier League FINALLY took him to task about his BBC boycott, which is flat out against their rules (though they haven't yet done anything effective about it).
Is it ?
In 04/05 we had all Houllier's players playing at the back up until January, we had conceded 15 goals by January, but once Pellegrino was brought in for Henchoz and Hyypia was rested for a lot of league games we contrived to concede another 26 goals, largely thanks to Pellegrino. Basically we could have been a lot better at the back had we played our first choice players in the league.
Our back four in 05/06 was Riise, Carragher, Hyypia, Finnan. i.e. a reworked Houllier defence. 25 goals.
Long story short, we added the likes of Aurelio, Insua, Konchesky - none of them are as good as Riise. We added Kyrgiakos, Agger, Paletta, Skrtel, none are better than Hyppia. We added Johnson, Degen, Kromkamp and none were as good as Finnan.
So basically our back four now isn't as good as it was at the beginning. Because of lots of bad additions, particularly in the last three years.
[/quote]
Mauricio Pellagrino
Birthdate: 05.10.1971
Birthplace: Leones, Argentina
Other clubs: Velez Sarsfield, Barcelona (loan), Valencia, Alaves
Bought from: Valencia
Signed for LFC: £Free 05.01.2005
International caps: 3/0
Liverpool debut: 15.01.2005
Last appearance: 15.05.2005
Contract expiry: 17.06.2005
LFC league games/goals: 12 / 0
Total LFC games/goals: 13 / 0
We conceeded 11 goals in the 12 games he played for us in the Prem
In 04/05 we had all Houllier's players playing at the back up until January, we had conceded 15 goals by January, but once Pellegrino was brought in for Henchoz and Hyypia was rested for a lot of league games we contrived to concede another 26 goals, largely thanks to Pellegrino. Basically we could have been a lot better at the back had we played our first choice players in the league.
Our back four in 05/06 was Riise, Carragher, Hyypia, Finnan. i.e. a reworked Houllier defence. 25 goals.
Long story short, we added the likes of Aurelio, Insua, Konchesky - none of them are as good as Riise. We added Kyrgiakos, Agger, Paletta, Skrtel, none are better than Hyppia. We added Johnson, Degen, Kromkamp and none were as good as Finnan.
So basically our back four now isn't as good as it was at the beginning. Because of lots of bad additions, particularly in the last three years.
[/quote]
Mauricio Pellagrino
Birthdate: 05.10.1971
Birthplace: Leones, Argentina
Other clubs: Velez Sarsfield, Barcelona (loan), Valencia, Alaves
Bought from: Valencia
Signed for LFC: £Free 05.01.2005
International caps: 3/0
Liverpool debut: 15.01.2005
Last appearance: 15.05.2005
Contract expiry: 17.06.2005
LFC league games/goals: 12 / 0
Total LFC games/goals: 13 / 0
We conceeded 11 goals in the 12 games he played for us in the Prem
[quote author=Avmenon link=topic=42390.msg1204287#msg1204287 date=1287865256]
Of course it was seen as a rant.
We weren't winning, and was seen as the attempt of a losing manager at deflecting criticism from his own inadequacies.
If we were winning, I think the media would have had a lot of difficulty in portraying Rafa as having 'cracked'.
[/quote]
but you said he was unlucky in that we started losing and then it was seen as a rant - isn't that what you meant? and surely if you mean that we were already losing at the time (as you imply above) and that naturally it'd be seen as cracking up, then he should have anticipated such a reponse and bad luck would've played no part in it would it?
the way i remember it is that we weren't losing - we were still top of the league - and immediately after we went on a poor run (0-0 at stoke was first, i think), but that it had already been reported as a rant/cracking up before the dip in form.
Of course it was seen as a rant.
We weren't winning, and was seen as the attempt of a losing manager at deflecting criticism from his own inadequacies.
If we were winning, I think the media would have had a lot of difficulty in portraying Rafa as having 'cracked'.
[/quote]
but you said he was unlucky in that we started losing and then it was seen as a rant - isn't that what you meant? and surely if you mean that we were already losing at the time (as you imply above) and that naturally it'd be seen as cracking up, then he should have anticipated such a reponse and bad luck would've played no part in it would it?
the way i remember it is that we weren't losing - we were still top of the league - and immediately after we went on a poor run (0-0 at stoke was first, i think), but that it had already been reported as a rant/cracking up before the dip in form.
oh and Hyppia partnered Pellegrino in 5 of those games 🙂
Liverpool 0 Man U 1
Southampton 2 Liverpool 0
Newcastle 1 Liverpool 0
Liverpool 2 Spurs 2
Crystal palace 1 Liverpool 0
When Pelligrino played without Hyppia we drew or won more
Liverpool 0 Blackburn 0
Liverpool 2 Everton 1
Liverpool 1 Bolton 0
Man City 1 Liverpool 0
Liverpool 1 Boro 1
Liverpool 2 Aston Villa 1
Liverpool 0 Man U 1
Southampton 2 Liverpool 0
Newcastle 1 Liverpool 0
Liverpool 2 Spurs 2
Crystal palace 1 Liverpool 0
When Pelligrino played without Hyppia we drew or won more
Liverpool 0 Blackburn 0
Liverpool 2 Everton 1
Liverpool 1 Bolton 0
Man City 1 Liverpool 0
Liverpool 1 Boro 1
Liverpool 2 Aston Villa 1
[quote author=peterhague link=topic=42390.msg1204209#msg1204209 date=1287848002]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=42390.msg1204196#msg1204196 date=1287846939]
[quote author=dirtyho link=topic=42390.msg1204192#msg1204192 date=1287846764]
Oh really? So much so that the season before last (which for the record I see as a blip and linked to the nightmarish ownership situation) we came second and lost two games all season. Well i'm sure hodgson can improve on that shit defence. Oh I just looked at the table - maybe not....
[/quote]
Apples and oranges.
Go and look at how many goals we conceded in the last two seasons, is it better or worse than the two before that ?
Why is that ? - I'm saying it's because of bringing in a shite coach in that useless Argie fucker, and signing bad defenders like Johnson, Degen, Aurelio et al.
[/quote]
liverpool goals conceded:
2002/03 - 41
2003/04 - 37
2004/05 - 41
2005/06 - 25
2006/07 - 27
2007/08 - 28
2008/09 - 27
2009/10 - 35
i mean - thanks for the insight. the trend's so fucking clear isn't it: almost deliberate vandalism of a parsimoious houllier defence!
[/quote]
A clear 1-0 to Peter.
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=42390.msg1204196#msg1204196 date=1287846939]
[quote author=dirtyho link=topic=42390.msg1204192#msg1204192 date=1287846764]
Oh really? So much so that the season before last (which for the record I see as a blip and linked to the nightmarish ownership situation) we came second and lost two games all season. Well i'm sure hodgson can improve on that shit defence. Oh I just looked at the table - maybe not....
[/quote]
Apples and oranges.
Go and look at how many goals we conceded in the last two seasons, is it better or worse than the two before that ?
Why is that ? - I'm saying it's because of bringing in a shite coach in that useless Argie fucker, and signing bad defenders like Johnson, Degen, Aurelio et al.
[/quote]
liverpool goals conceded:
2002/03 - 41
2003/04 - 37
2004/05 - 41
2005/06 - 25
2006/07 - 27
2007/08 - 28
2008/09 - 27
2009/10 - 35
i mean - thanks for the insight. the trend's so fucking clear isn't it: almost deliberate vandalism of a parsimoious houllier defence!
[/quote]
A clear 1-0 to Peter.
[quote author=peterhague link=topic=42390.msg1204291#msg1204291 date=1287865859]
[quote author=Avmenon link=topic=42390.msg1204287#msg1204287 date=1287865256]
Of course it was seen as a rant.
We weren't winning, and was seen as the attempt of a losing manager at deflecting criticism from his own inadequacies.
If we were winning, I think the media would have had a lot of difficulty in portraying Rafa as having 'cracked'.
[/quote]
but you said he was unlucky in that we started losing and then it was seen as a rant - isn't that what you meant? and surely if you mean that we were already losing at the time (as you imply above) and that naturally it'd be seen as cracking up, then he should have anticipated such a reponse and bad luck would've played no part in it would it?
the way i remember it is that we weren't losing - we were still top of the league - and immediately after we went on a poor run (0-0 at stoke was first, i think), but that it had already been reported as a rant/cracking up before the dip in form.
[/quote]
I really can't remember, pete.
And my interest in it is no match for the levels you'll go to in maintaining a spirited defense of Rafa,as is your wont.
I don't know if we were already beginning to lose or if we only began losing after the 'facts' statement.
But either way, if we had gone on to win the next 30 League gamnes enroute to winning the title, no one would have dared to make any suggestions about a 'rant'
[quote author=Avmenon link=topic=42390.msg1204287#msg1204287 date=1287865256]
Of course it was seen as a rant.
We weren't winning, and was seen as the attempt of a losing manager at deflecting criticism from his own inadequacies.
If we were winning, I think the media would have had a lot of difficulty in portraying Rafa as having 'cracked'.
[/quote]
but you said he was unlucky in that we started losing and then it was seen as a rant - isn't that what you meant? and surely if you mean that we were already losing at the time (as you imply above) and that naturally it'd be seen as cracking up, then he should have anticipated such a reponse and bad luck would've played no part in it would it?
the way i remember it is that we weren't losing - we were still top of the league - and immediately after we went on a poor run (0-0 at stoke was first, i think), but that it had already been reported as a rant/cracking up before the dip in form.
[/quote]
I really can't remember, pete.
And my interest in it is no match for the levels you'll go to in maintaining a spirited defense of Rafa,as is your wont.
I don't know if we were already beginning to lose or if we only began losing after the 'facts' statement.
But either way, if we had gone on to win the next 30 League gamnes enroute to winning the title, no one would have dared to make any suggestions about a 'rant'
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