Salah’s future

[Frogfish]

What’s stopping us finding his replacement now anyway? Why can’t we buy a successor and give him a chance to bed in and while also taking the pressure and load off?

Regarding the non PL goals and Salah apologists, I think some of us are not that bothered either way because of what he has given us since but jump in to defend him because of the accusations are borderline disrespectful and BS. Some of the criticism is rather unfair at best.

The penalty exclusion? Penalties are so weighted with pressure and unique, why would you not value that? Takes some balls to take a penalty in CL final or against united away. Would you really give it to Nunez whom missed the only penalty he had when 2-0 up and cruising. Can only think Macca as the other viable alternative.

I absolutely agree that finding a replacement whilst he's still here would be great, a world class back up? Who wouldn't want that! Salah I imagine, I doubt he'd even contemplate that much bench time and if the replacement is of that high quality even he would find that untenable. Plus we'd lose the Mo money. Bit of a luxury wish even if highly desirable as far as the fans would be concerned.

I've never accused him or said anything negative against him - except that I believe the time has come to say arrivederci. When many were clamouring to sell last season I was 'hold' unless there is a £200m offer on the table.

Penalties - of course you have to exclude them. Why? Because we have plenty of players that can take them and do a better job (Salah doesn't have a particularly high conversion rate). Macca is the obvious choice but you mention Nunez and his penalty conversion rate is 12 to 1 missed (that one off the post, and Salah has missed two this season alone), one of the very highest around. Pressure? Well how many penalty shootouts have we been involved in? We won most so the pressure certainly didn't affect them - and in your average match (PL, FAC, LC, CL) there is far less pressure.

 

[Farkmaster]

The comment by frogfish that prompted this listing of a handful of players was "what top top players playing for top top clubs after 32."

I'm not adding criteria when I question the inclusion of Peter crouch, Defoe, etc. why not chuck in sherringham at that point? That's the thing, it mostly happens with lesser teams in England.

But anyhow, it does happen, it seems to happen less in England, and it happens quite rarely.

 

[Frogfish]

Salah is not a CF and he missed almost half a season with injury. How many wingers in a top league in Europe have scored more than 12 non-penalty goals + 9 assists in a season, let alone half a season? Even Saka scored fewer non-penalty goals than Mo.

For comparison:
Johan Bakayoko: 11 goals and 9 assists - very similar, but it’s Eredivisie
Rafael Leao (who I think is boss): 7 goals, 9 assists
Saka: 10 non-penalty goals, 9 assists

Not even comparing him to the likes of Grealish, Doku or, say, Mitoma who are all in lower single digits despite being highly rated and expensive. Just to show how difficult it is to replace Salah’s production, even if you have money to spend.

Hmm that's a little smoke and mirrors mate.

Mo may tentatively be called a winger but he doesn't play like one. Although positionally he starts on the right he hardly ever takes on and beats players (any more), he's there so he can cut inside and shoot off his left foot. He's more like an old-fashioned Inside Right. Plus he's often to be found central. He's in no way a winger. Bradley is more of a traditional winger than Mo. !

So you want comparisons (in the PL, let's not start combing inferior leagues for theory support)?

Watkins (nominally on the left but like Mo drifts central) 19 goals (0 penalties) 12 assists
Bowen (nominally on the right) 16 goals (0 penalties) 6 assists
Foden (nominally right or left) 16 goals (0 penalties) 7 assists
Son (nominally on the left but like Mo drifts central) 14 goals (2 penalties not included) 9 assists

Reminder : Salah 12 non-penalty goals and 9 assists (up to 31st 2023: 12 goals and 7 assists)(in 2024 : 5 goals and 2 assists, missed 6 games).

 

[Frogfish]

I think Klopp wasn't able to figure out a system for a slowing Salah but maybe the right plan can get the best out of him. I just worry that Trent + Salah means there's always a hole. I hope a top level DM is our big priority along with a striker

The only issue I have with this is that this is supposed to be a rebuild so unless it's felt he can give us another 3-4 years, as would a new guaranteed starter, why would we? Remembering that the most we'd get out of him would be another 2 seasons (he's asked for a 1 year extension - before he feels he's ready for Saudi)?

 

[Frogfish]

Benzema
Suarez
Zlatan
Giggs
Henry
Aguero
Lewandowski

There’s literally a fuck tonne of top forwards that have contributed at top clubs well into their mid 30’s

Actually not a fuck load because everyone is recycling the same names (and most are a very different type of player to Mo). So the gamble is : is Salah going to be one of them?
The way he's declined in every important metric (bar assists) from pressing to defending, dribbling and critically scoring, suggests otherwise. Is the club willing to gamble on that ? And give up the fee to actually buy a top replacement for a declining Mo contributing less and less over the next two seasons?

Even if we were to get back the Mo from the first half of this season I think at this stage,and looking to the future, I'd still take the money for the rebuild and a much younger player, despite that also being a gamble.

 

[Fabio]

Benzema
Suarez
Zlatan
Giggs
Henry
Aguero
Lewandowski

There’s literally a fuck tonne of top forwards that have contributed at top clubs well into their mid 30’s

The obvious counter to that is "what's their style of play? I get the point but it's a bit myopic focusing on age and saying all of the above were the same players in 30s compared to their 20s.

I'd say arguably only Suarez, aguero were pretty much the same type.of.player as Salah going in to their mid 30s.

If Salah bucks the trend and keeps his pace (everything says he hasn't), his dribbling (eye test and stats say he hasn't) then fair play. His finishing has always been decent, but that seems to have fallen off a bit too

 

[tomasjj]

Trent inverting for me is a failed experiment, especially with Salah, but regardless really.

It is a tactical tool for me. Something you can use when it suits, but certainly not as a default.

 

[Fabio]

It is a tactical tool for me. Something you can use when it suits, but certainly not as a default.

It's a plan B for when plan A isn't working. But klopp has never enjoyed complete backup plans. He prefers to tweak the existing system mid game. Personally, a complete change is whats called for in certain games. Like throwing a CB up top.

 

[rubans]

I absolutely agree that finding a replacement whilst he's still here would be great, a world class back up? Who wouldn't want that! Salah I imagine, I doubt he'd even contemplate that much bench time and if the replacement is of that high quality even he would find that untenable. Plus we'd lose the Mo money. Bit of a luxury wish even if highly desirable as far as the fans would be concerned.

I've never accused him or said anything negative against him - except that I believe the time has come to say arrivederci. When many were clamouring to sell last season I was 'hold' unless there is a £200m offer on the table.

Penalties - of course you have to exclude them. Why? Because we have plenty of players that can take them and do a better job (Salah doesn't have a particularly high conversion rate). Macca is the obvious choice but you mention Nunez and his penalty conversion rate is 12 to 1 missed (that one off the post, and Salah has missed two this season alone), one of the very highest around. Pressure? Well how many penalty shootouts have we been involved in? We won most so the pressure certainly didn't affect them - and in your average match (PL, FAC, LC, CL) there is far less pressure.

Regarding pens, I can only account for LFC ones. Not going to go into his conversion with Uruguay and the rest, but say we have a pen in the last min, would you give it to Nunez? Salah wants them but has also been trusted with them. When I see Shearer’s or Ronaldo’s stats, not going to exclude Pens so not sure why anyone would here for an overall picture.

 

[MomoWASright]

We have several penalty takers (Slobby and Mac come to mind) and a couple (Trent and VVD) I’d expect to be quality.

 

[Richey]

Regarding pens, I can only account for LFC ones. Not going to go into his conversion with Uruguay and the rest, but say we have a pen in the last min, would you give it to Nunez? Salah wants them but has also been trusted with them. When I see Shearer’s or Ronaldo’s stats, not going to exclude Pens so not sure why anyone would here for an overall picture.

Haha! Obviously not!

 

[Fabio]

When I see Shearer’s or Ronaldo’s stats, not going to exclude Pens so not sure why anyone would here for an overall picture.

I agree when looking over the career of a player its borderline moot, but when you're trying to analyse the efficacy of a player in their declining years, it becomes more valuable. It allows you to get firmer grasp of their performance levels compared to previous seasons

 

[Fabio]

Also nunez record for pens (just not with us) is very good.

 

[Woland]

Probs the wrong thread but between the anny road and CL qualification there's gonna be an extra 100 million in the coffers this season. Now is the perfect time to bring someone in and keep Salah while we need him. I know loads of people want to see him gone but I don't get it, he's the best we've got by some distance. I'd sell any and all of the rest of them first.

 

[Fabio]

Probs the wrong thread but between the anny road and CL qualification there's gonna be an extra 100 million in the coffers this season. Now is the perfect time to bring someone in and keep Salah while we need him. I know loads of people want to see him gone but I don't get it, he's the best we've got by some distance. I'd sell any and all of the rest of them first.

think it's the belief he has the highest value for sale and thats only going to decrease as we go on. I get the point of keeping him (as that seems what we're going to do), but i don't think there's going to be a decent warchest for Slot without some substantial player sales

 

[Woland]

Who's gonna buy him? I don't think we could have sold him to Saudi last year as I doubted he wanted to go. Who else is paying a trillion quid?

 

[MomoWASright]

Probs the wrong thread but between the anny road and CL qualification there's gonna be an extra 100 million in the coffers this season. Now is the perfect time to bring someone in and keep Salah while we need him. I know loads of people want to see him gone but I don't get it, he's the best we've got by some distance. I'd sell any and all of the rest of them first.

They’re all either shit, thick, old or injured.

I miss prime Mane, Firmino and Salah.

Sell the lot and get the next mane, Firmino and Salah. Edward’s new gimps have a challenge on their hands.

 

[Frogfish]

Regarding pens, I can only account for LFC ones. Not going to go into his conversion with Uruguay and the rest, but say we have a pen in the last min, would you give it to Nunez? Salah wants them but has also been trusted with them. When I see Shearer’s or Ronaldo’s stats, not going to exclude Pens so not sure why anyone would here for an overall picture.

He's got to be in the conversation with a 12 to 1 record. Certainly in the 5 pen takers in a shootout. Probably other factors come into play but I certainly wouldn't be unhappy with him being chosen or trepidatious that he would miss.

 

[Fabio]

Who's gonna buy him? I don't think we could have sold him to Saudi last year as I doubted he wanted to go. Who else is paying a trillion quid?

It's saudi or if psg decide to go silly after m'bappe leaves, otherwise i dunno. If theres a decent offer though, we'd be crazy not to consider it

 

[Woland]

People keep saying Saudi but why? He's minted already and it's beyond fucking shit. I really can't see him wasting away the rest of his career in that bin. PSG maybe but all the big signings they make tend to hate it after five minutes.

 

[Fabio]

People keep saying Saudi but why? He's minted already and it's beyond fucking shit. I really can't see him wasting away the rest of his career in that bin. PSG maybe but all the big signings they make tend to hate it after five minutes.

Depends what he wants really. Full on national idol over there and being the face of the league and being fucking extra minted alongside it (there's not many people in the world who think "yes, i've earned enough money now"). I don't believe saudi will be back, as the league hasn't taken off and it's a laughing stock. similar to when pele moved to new york cosmos back in the day, or the chinese league 10 years ago. They hoped it would kick start something. It didn't.

As for PSG; Couldn't give a shite if he hates it after 2 minutes. Money would have cleared in our account by then.

 

[Woland]

I'm taking his position though. If PSG came in would it be that interesting? Total yawn of a league and noone seems to enjoy their time there. It's up to him where and when he goes, not us.

 

[Fabio]

I'm taking his position though. If PSG came in would it be that interesting? Total yawn of a league and noone seems to enjoy their time there. It's up to him where and when he goes, not us.

completely agree, so he'll probably stay here for that reason. Just depends if he's sick of the drizzle and working with a special needs donkey who likes drawing horses

 

[StevieM]

Actually not a fuck load because everyone is recycling the same names (and most are a very different type of player to Mo). So the gamble is : is Salah going to be one of them?
The way he's declined in every important metric (bar assists) from pressing to defending, dribbling and critically scoring, suggests otherwise. Is the club willing to gamble on that ? And give up the fee to actually buy a top replacement for a declining Mo contributing less and less over the next two seasons?

Even if we were to get back the Mo from the first half of this season I think at this stage,and looking to the future, I'd still take the money for the rebuild and a much younger player, despite that also being a gamble.

How many names do you want Froggy - and what do you mean by different / how narrow do you need it to be for your claim to have merit - these are all forwards - a mixture of styles and attributes.

Is Salah a party boy with a history of boozing it up? Does he have a history of injuries? Is he a poor trainer? Does his refuelling habits involve visiting the local chippy regularly? Is he out of shape?

I’m calling you out on the stats think because I thing you’re bullshitting.

He’s down in some areas - mainly carries and dribbling and his mid range pass completion is a bit off, but I think he’s also receiving the ball less. His assists, goals per minute played (your favourite stat), short and long range passing - they’re all up.

Tackles. Blocks and challenges aren’t noticeably different to his average.

So please, by all means jets get done stats that highlight his decline and let’s dive into them to see what they mean - because, to me they’re not going off a cliff - and that’s also taking into account we’re trying to play to Donkey’s “strengths” as much as Salahs.

Again - we’ve got issues across the entire front line - all 3 of the positions - madness to try and sort it in one window in my opinion.l and equally, I’m not all in on getting rid of the player that delivers most of our goals and assists just yet.

 

[Markeh]

People keep saying Saudi but why? He's minted already and it's beyond fucking shit. I really can't see him wasting away the rest of his career in that bin. PSG maybe but all the big signings they make tend to hate it after five minutes.

yea, he’d maybe enjoy the MLS more if he’s willing to concede that he’s not suited to the top level any longer

we can kiss big money goodbye though

 

[StevieM]

The obvious counter to that is "what's their style of play? I get the point but it's a bit myopic focusing on age and saying all of the above were the same players in 30s compared to their 20s.

I'd say arguably only Suarez, aguero were pretty much the same type.of.player as Salah going in to their mid 30s.

If Salah bucks the trend and keeps his pace (everything says he hasn't), his dribbling (eye test and stats say he hasn't) then fair play. His finishing has always been decent, but that seems to have fallen off a bit too

Come on Fabs - Froggy stated “Aside from the GOAT and Ronaldo which other top forward (and I mean top) can you name at a top club at 32-33 ?”

So I did - then it becomes “oh yeah, but apart from those top players!! Who???

This is fast becoming a Monty Python sketch about what the Romans did for us.

Froggy just said something stupid - that would be more like something Dreamie or Binomial would say - and it’s pointless anyway - If a forward takes care of themselves physically and learns how to adapt as they get older, there’s no reason why they can’t play top level football well in to their 30’s.

Then don’t all hit 30 and develop a desire for fried food, beer and mars bars.

 

[StevieM]

The comment by frogfish that prompted this listing of a handful of players was "what top top players playing for top top clubs after 32."

I'm not adding criteria when I question the inclusion of Peter crouch, Defoe, etc. why not chuck in sherringham at that point? That's the thing, it mostly happens with lesser teams in England.

But anyhow, it does happen, it seems to happen less in England, and it happens quite rarely.

How many do you want?

Rush was scoring regularly for us until 33-34, Ian Wright till he was even older at Arsenal.

Genuinely are you trying to say that no player over the age of 32 other than Ronaldo & Messi (which Froggy actually did say) has or is playing at a high level.

Are we limiting it to teams that win the League and champions league in the hope you can say “there’s only a couple”.

This is just doubling down on nonsense.

 

[Richey]

People keep saying Saudi but why? He's minted already and it's beyond fucking shit. I really can't see him wasting away the rest of his career in that bin. PSG maybe but all the big signings they make tend to hate it after five minutes.

It does make me laugh a bit that we are supposed to believe that he'd accept a move to Saudi, and therefore also accept that he can't do it at the top level anymore, yet at the same time we can't possibly keep him because he will insist on playing for us at the top level every week!

 

[Fabio]

Come on Fabs - Froggy stated “Aside from the GOAT and Ronaldo which other top forward (and I mean top) can you name at a top club at 32-33 ?”

So I did - then it becomes “oh yeah, but apart from those top players!! Who???

This is fast becoming a Monty Python sketch about what the Romans did for us.

Froggy just said something stupid - that would be more like something Dreamie or Binomial would say - and it’s pointless anyway - If a forward takes care of themselves physically and learns how to adapt as they get older, there’s no reason why they can’t play top level football well in to their 30’s.

Then don’t all hit 30 and develop a desire for fried food, beer and mars bars.

I don't disagree with you, and i think focusing on age alone is daft. For me its playstyle. Like, you'd expect a Cb to play to 40 if they can read a game well, but if they're heavily reliant on pace as their reading of the game is poor, you wouldn't expect them to continue at the highest level. The older you get the slower you get, the less power you have, the higher chance of picking up knocks. It's not an outlandish claim to think that at his age, in his position, for his playstyle, we shouldn't be considering our options? Its this kind of thought process that let us keep mane, hendo and fabinho too long. Sometimes we need to pull the trigger before the rot truly sinks in

he does look after himself, so i'm sure we'll get another season of decent output from him, but after that ['m just not sure. It just depends on HOW mo adapts. If we transition to a team who plays with an outright 10, it might work, but his close control and touch seems to have been off this season for the most part, but that role would probably suit. If he is insistent on playing the flying winger role (something hes struggled with this season), then we may face an issue. If he's willing to manage his minutes and be a rotated player, theres every chance he could remain effective for a while longer.

It just comes down to the risk/reward and we're entering a time of upheaval. It just depends on whether slot wants a 300k a week salah round his neck for another 2 years, or if he feels he can improve the team overall. By the sounds of it, he wants to keep, and i'm ok with that.

 

[keniget]

I don’t particularly rate any of our other attackers, Salah is still our most reliable scorer… but I voted sell anyways.

It’s the end of an era and I kinda figure why not just cut the chord completely and start afresh with a young team that is hungry.

It’d be different if we had a team stacked with winners and were expecting to win shit next season a la Madrid but we don’t / aren’t.