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Sal-ittihad

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First of all, half of that list didn't put up numbers like Salah consistently because they were in shit teams, and/or got injured in a way that essentially ended their career at the top level.

Suarez was more singularly impactful than Salah, and for me is a level above Salah, but I don't really want to be drawn into that discussion, because it is meaningless, as is calling him a right winger.

For the billionth time we don't need to find another salah. We need to replace elements of what he does with other players, who when combined with other players in a new look forward line, make for a formidable attack. They may not operate the same way. They probably won't. They don't even collectively need to produce as many goals if our team operates differently or produces goals from midfield.

If we simply say Diaz is manes replacement, gakpo is firmiños and Salah is still salah, we are fucked. All three of them are worse right now than their equivalent was at their peak, and it's not close. We are building something new. Salah is likely just a bridge to getting there.

Since Salah isn't the player he was, this is easier to do. We are talking about a team game here.

For each one of those players you listed, people fretted about replacing them. Many of them were replaced by another one on the list! None of them are similar either, so while they were "replaced" they were replaced in terms of people forgetting about them and moving on to a new messiah.

It'll happen again.
 
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Don't forget, you are debating with the poster who postulated that we started the 18/19 season 25 points behind City. So he cannot comprehend "replacing Salah" with anyone who isn't a replica of Salah with the exact same goal and assist output
 
Reminds of that scene in “moneyball” where they try to replace the guys stats. So goals and assists and runs. Not the actual guy. Not sure it’s possible.
 
localny said:
Reminds of that scene in “moneyball” where they try to replace the guys stats. So goals and assists and runs. Not the actual guy. Not sure it’s possible.
Click to expand...

It's the only thing that is possible. If you don't adapt your team around new players at all, what the fuck are you doing?

There are negatives to every player and system too. Our right flank has been a defensive weakness for ages. It isn't just because of Trent, and at times it was really, really worth it. We're rebuilding an entire team here. Salah was a focal point for the old one - why would you try to build a new team around the hope that you'd find a player very similar to him? What on earth would that serve?
 
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Don’t agree with that. Wouldn’t say one side has been far worse than other.
Left has been week at times too, especially various parts of last season and the first two games of this season. Some of that is down to Robbo not being tight as he was.
 
rubans said:
Don’t agree with that. Wouldn’t say one side has been far worse than other.
Left has been week at times too, especially various parts of last season and the first two games of this season. Some of that is down to Robbo not being tight as he was.
Click to expand...

You don't agree that teams have historically targeted our right flank?!
 
Farkmaster said:
You don't agree that teams have historically targeted our right flank?!
Click to expand...

That’s not really what you said though?
You said right side has been defensively weak for ages and most of the time I saw was Salah and Hendo worked insanely hard defensively. Just watching Salah without the ball at Anfield, he really does put a shift in even last season.

I saw both flanks been exposed at times last season due our CMs lacking athleticism.
 
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rubans said:
That’s not really what you said though?
You said right side has been defensively weak for ages and most of the time I saw was Salah and Hendo worked insanely hard defensively. Just watching Salah without the ball at Anfield, he really does put a shift in even last season.

I saw both flanks been exposed at times last season due our CMs lacking athleticism.
Click to expand...

I'm not saying it's been defensively weak for ages, I'm saying, it's been defensively weaKER than our left. Even when we were destroying teams, this was the way to get at us. No team is perfect, but this slight footnote became even worse as the legs in our midfield fell off, and Salah's defensive work declined at the same time as he ceased to be a one man counterattacking threat in the same way. At our worst last season, you could find so much space to break our lines in the centre that it's true, you could go either way, but most teams would still focus on our right. If you don't need to double him, there are more opportunities to counter when possession is ceded too, down our right.
 
Farkmaster said:
I'm not saying it's been defensively weak for ages, I'm saying, it's been defensively weaKER than our left. Even when we were destroying teams, this was the way to get at us. No team is perfect, but this slight footnote became even worse as the legs in our midfield fell off, and Salah's defensive work declined at the same time as he ceased to be a one man counterattacking threat in the same way. At our worst last season, you could find so much space to break our lines in the centre that it's true, you could go either way, but most teams would still focus on our right. If you don't need to double him, there are more opportunities to counter when possession is ceded too, down our right.
Click to expand...

Yep, that’s what I disagreed with originally. I don’t think is weaker than our left and his defensive output has decreased.

I see the left being weaker this season and noticebly so. The opposoition penetration seems to mainly come down our left but that’s just based on what I have seen but has been more balanced since first 2 games. Would be good to see some stats on it though.
 
rubans said:
Yep, that’s what I disagreed with originally. I don’t think is weaker than our left and his defensive output has decreased.

I see the left being weaker this season and noticebly so. The opposoition penetration seems to mainly come down our left but that’s just based on what I have seen. Would be good to see some stats on it though.
Click to expand...


I don't really know what's going on this season yet, it's barely started, despite people deciding we're definitely fine, United are definitely shit, Chelsea can't put anything together, etc.

Anyhow, why do you think Salah was subbed off against Chelsea?
 
Farkmaster said:
I don't really know what's going on this season yet, it's barely started, despite people deciding we're definitely fine, United are definitely shit, Chelsea can't put anything together, etc.

Anyhow, why do you think Salah was subbed off against Chelsea?
Click to expand...

I thought was just a rest and a change for Nunez.
Salah was fine against Chelsea from what I remember, he created one and scored one off side. His stats so far have been great, hoping he keeps if up before Afcon.
 
rubans said:
I thought was just a rest and a change for Nunez.
Salah was fine against Chelsea from what I remember, he created one and scored one off side. His stats so far have been great, hoping he keeps if up before Afcon.
Click to expand...

I think it's because he couldn't press anymore at the level required and we were losing control of the game. I don't think that when Klopp looks at an attacking player he thinks of them in terms of goals and assists only, thank god.
 
Farkmaster said:
I think it's because he couldn't press anymore at the level required and we were losing control of the game. I don't think that when Klopp looks at an attacking player he thinks of them in terms of goals and assists only, thank god.
Click to expand...

He was substituted at 77mins, I doubt it was anything specifically to do with just pressing.
Striker’s main responsibility is to make an impact on attacking play, Klopp is an attacking manager after al otherwise we would just buy a clone of Joelinton. Pressing is implicit part of of every player who is on the field with us. I think the fact he got substiuted on a hot summer day on the first game the season with 13 mins doesn’t imply Klopp thought Salah couldn’t no longer press. He had pretty much started and played every mins since including when we went to 10 man against NCFC.
 
Generic statement, doesn’t imply he could no longer press. Like I said, one game and probably our least subbed attacker historically. Anyway…
 
Farky's talking a lot of sense here, Rubans... There's nothing blashpemic (is that even a word?) in anything he's saying.

We HAVE been weaker down our right, since the very beginning of this era of Jurgen's LFC. TAA is a terrible defender and Mo didn't track back to help as much as Sadio did on Robbo's side. Our defense has always been suspect, but it's only in recent years, when our midfielders' legs have gone and opponents haven't been afraid to attack us that we've been regularly punished for it. Robbo's no superstar at the back either, by the way, but back when we overwhelmed opponents in the middle and up front, we didn't usually get caught out at the back (though there were many, many close games and near misses and superb saves in our title-winning season, that we've all conveniently forgotten about).

Teams have openly planned to attack us down the right, more so that the left for the past several seasons... They just have.

P.S. None of this is a shot at Mo, either. It's just how I see it...
 
Whadappie, I don’t agree on the points made.
I agree with some of the points you made but
not on Trent being a terrible defender but made some big mistakes last season, I think we are just now making some assertions to retro fit a view point but will not confuse the original Salah views by bring Trent (whom was a good enough defender against Europe’s elite before last season) into this otherwise we will be here all day. Salah not tracking back? Honestly, i have watched us a while and he is one of the hardest workers in the team even when Sadio was around. I don’t see where you are coming from.

Regarding why I disagree with points made about Salah, I have already quantified why some based on stats and others on how I have seen the games.
It’s a forum, we don’t all have to agree on everything or otherwise we would just read blogs or something.
 
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Whaddapie said:
Farky's talking a lot of sense here, Rubans... There's nothing blashpemic (is that even a word?) in anything he's saying.

We HAVE been weaker down our right, since the very beginning of this era of Jurgen's LFC. TAA is a terrible defender and Mo didn't track back to help as much as Sadio did on Robbo's side. Our defense has always been suspect, but it's only in recent years, when our midfielders' legs have gone and opponents haven't been afraid to attack us that we've been regularly punished for it. Robbo's no superstar at the back either, by the way, but back when we overwhelmed opponents in the middle and up front, we didn't usually get caught out at the back (though there were many, many close games and near misses and superb saves in our title-winning season, that we've all conveniently forgotten about).

Teams have openly planned to attack us down the right, more so that the left for the past several seasons... They just have.

P.S. None of this is a shot at Mo, either. It's just how I see it...
Click to expand...
Don't forget we also had a prime VvD on Robbo's side. No one in their right mind would've attacked him!
 
rubans said:
Whadappie, I don’t agree on the points made.
I agree with some of the points you made but
not on Trent being a terrible defender but made some big mistakes last season, I think we are just now making some assertions to retro fit a view point but will not confuse the original Salah views by bring Trent (whom was a good enough defender against Europe’s elite before last season) into this otherwise we will be here all day. Salah not tracking back? Honestly, i have watched us a while and he is one of the hardest workers in the team even when Sadio was around. I don’t see where you are coming from.

Regarding why I disagree with points made about Salah, I have already quantified why some based on stats and others on how I have seen the games.
It’s a forum, we don’t all have to agree on everything or otherwise we would just read blogs or something.
Click to expand...

I don't think Salah doesn't work hard, mate. Just that Sadio and Robbo were a more in tune pairing and stronger defensively.

Trent is absolutely a rubbish defender and always has been... When has he looked good - defensively, only - against Europe's elite? There may have been a game or two down the years where he was decent, but I have honestly never, ever seen a game where I've said afterwards "Wow, Trent was fantastic defensively!" afterwards. That simply hasn't happened. His untouchable attacking qualities have always helped us to overlook his defensive shortcomings, but they are most certainly there and have been since he got here.
 
Whaddapie said:
I don't think Salah doesn't work hard, mate. Just that Sadio and Robbo were a more in tune pairing and stronger defensively.

Trent is absolutely a rubbish defender and always has been... When has he looked good - defensively, only - against Europe's elite? There may have been a game or two down the years where he was decent, but I have honestly never, ever seen a game where I've said afterwards "Wow, Trent was fantastic defensively!" afterwards. That simply hasn't happened. His untouchable attacking qualities have always helped us to overlook his defensive shortcomings, but they are most certainly there and have been since he got here.
Click to expand...

See what I expect from Trent is to defend without brain farts but just get forward and pass first, it’s just my expectations are inverted with him. I think he is a decent defender but what he is in there for is his attacking threat.

I tried to find running stats on Mo last season but didn’t find much in general, would be interesting to see but when I seen him live, I always thought this guy’s work ethic is insane. Will see if I can find some stars out there but to me his defensive ability is secondary to what I expect on from an attacker anyway…
 
So found some stats, it's rather interesting in.
In Season 21/22, this is how he compared defensively with other top 5 players in his position:
Defensive Actions (2021/22)


  • Glossary​
  • Toggle Per90 Stats​
[xtable]
{colgroup}
{col}{/col}{col}{/col}{col}{/col}{col}{/col}{col}{/col}{col}{/col}{col}{/col}{col}{/col}{col}{/col}{col}{/col}{col}{/col}{col}{/col}{col}{/col}{col}{/col}{col}{/col}{col}{/col}{col}{/col}{col}{/col}{col}{/col}{col}{/col}{col}{/col}{col}{/col}
{/colgroup}
{thead}
{tr}
{th=colspan:5} {/th}
{th} {/th}
{th=colspan:5}Tackles{/th}
{th=colspan:4}Challenges{/th}
{th=colspan:3}Blocks{/th}
{th=colspan:4} {/th}
{/tr}
{tr}
{th=scope:col}Player{/th}
{th=scope:col}Span{/th}
{th=scope:col|middle|bcolor:#eeeeee|nowrap|center}Nation{/th}
{th=scope:col|middle|bcolor:#eeeeee|nowrap|center}Pos{/th}
{th=scope:col}Squad{/th}
{th=scope:col|middle|bcolor:#eeeeee|nowrap|center}90s{/th}
{th=scope:col|middle|bcolor:#eeeeee|nowrap|center}Tkl{/th}
{th=scope:col|middle|bcolor:#eeeeee|nowrap|center}TklW{/th}
{th=scope:col|middle|bcolor:#eeeeee|nowrap|center}Def 3rd{/th}
{th=scope:col|middle|bcolor:#eeeeee|nowrap|center}Mid 3rd{/th}
{th=scope:col|middle|bcolor:#eeeeee|nowrap|center}Att 3rd{/th}
{th=scope:col|middle|bcolor:#eeeeee|nowrap|center}Tkl{/th}
{th=scope:col|middle|bcolor:#eeeeee|nowrap|center}Att{/th}
{th=scope:col|middle|bcolor:#eeeeee|nowrap|center}Tkl%{/th}
{th=scope:col|middle|bcolor:#eeeeee|nowrap|center}Lost{/th}
{th=scope:col}Blocks{/th}
{th=scope:col|middle|bcolor:#eeeeee|nowrap|center}Sh{/th}
{th=scope:col|middle|bcolor:#eeeeee|nowrap|center}Pass{/th}
{th=scope:col|middle|bcolor:#eeeeee|nowrap|center}Int{/th}
{th=scope:col}Tkl+Int{/th}
{th=scope:col|middle|bcolor:#eeeeee|nowrap|center}Clr{/th}
{th=scope:col|middle|bcolor:#eeeeee|nowrap|center}Err{/th}
{/tr}
{/thead}
{tbody}
{tr}
{th=scope:row}Mohamed Salah{/th}
{td}2021-22{/td}
{td}eg EGY{/td}
{td}FW{/td}
{td}Liverpool{/td}
{td}30.7{/td}
{td}17{/td}
{td}8{/td}
{td}5{/td}
{td}9{/td}
{td}3{/td}
{td}6{/td}
{td}19{/td}
{td}31.6{/td}
{td}13{/td}
{td}7{/td}
{td}1{/td}
{td}6{/td}
{td}6{/td}
{td}23{/td}
{td}5{/td}
{td}0{/td}
{/tr}
{tr}
{th=scope:row}Raheem Sterling{/th}
{td}2021-22{/td}
{td}eng ENG{/td}
{td}FW{/td}
{td}Manchester City{/td}
{td}23.6{/td}
{td}23{/td}
{td}10{/td}
{td}3{/td}
{td}11{/td}
{td}9{/td}
{td}10{/td}
{td}23{/td}
{td}43.5{/td}
{td}13{/td}
{td}12{/td}
{td}0{/td}
{td}12{/td}
{td}12{/td}
{td}35{/td}
{td}3{/td}
{td}0{/td}
{/tr}
{tr}
{th=scope:row}Riyad Mahrez{/th}
{td}2021-22{/td}
{td}dz ALG{/td}
{td}FW{/td}
{td}Manchester City{/td}
{td}16.6{/td}
{td}11{/td}
{td}3{/td}
{td}5{/td}
{td}4{/td}
{td}2{/td}
{td}5{/td}
{td}19{/td}
{td}26.3{/td}
{td}14{/td}
{td}15{/td}
{td}1{/td}
{td}14{/td}
{td}6{/td}
{td}17{/td}
{td}6{/td}
{td}0{/td}
{/tr}
{tr}
{th=scope:row}Phil Foden{/th}
{td}2021-22{/td}
{td}eng ENG{/td}
{td}FW{/td}
{td}Manchester City{/td}
{td}23.6{/td}
{td}16{/td}
{td}8{/td}
{td}10{/td}
{td}4{/td}
{td}2{/td}
{td}7{/td}
{td}17{/td}
{td}41.2{/td}
{td}10{/td}
{td}9{/td}
{td}0{/td}
{td}9{/td}
{td}11{/td}
{td}27{/td}
{td}5{/td}
{td}0{/td}
{/tr}
{tr}
{th=scope:row}Son Heung-min{/th}
{td}2021-22{/td}
{td}kr KOR{/td}
{td}MF,FW{/td}
{td}Tottenham{/td}
{td}33.4{/td}
{td}15{/td}
{td}6{/td}
{td}5{/td}
{td}7{/td}
{td}3{/td}
{td}5{/td}
{td}23{/td}
{td}21.7{/td}
{td}18{/td}
{td}27{/td}
{td}6{/td}
{td}21{/td}
{td}13{/td}
{td}28{/td}
{td}8{/td}
{td}0{/td}
{/tr}
{tr}
{th=scope:row}Luis Díaz{/th}
{td}2021-22{/td}
{td}co COL{/td}
{td}FW{/td}
{td}Liverpool{/td}
{td}10.6{/td}
{td}9{/td}
{td}7{/td}
{td}3{/td}
{td}5{/td}
{td}1{/td}
{td}2{/td}
{td}8{/td}
{td}25.0{/td}
{td}6{/td}
{td}7{/td}
{td}0{/td}
{td}7{/td}
{td}4{/td}
{td}13{/td}
{td}2{/td}
{td}0{/td}
{/tr}
{/tbody}
[/xtable]

His numbers in general make him put him only second to Sadio from a defensive stats point of view. Btw, Sadio stats were insane...

This is how he is doing so far this season:


Defensive Actions (23/24 So far...)


  • Glossary​
  • Toggle Per90 Stats​
[xtable]
{colgroup}
{col}{/col}{col}{/col}{col}{/col}{col}{/col}{col}{/col}{col}{/col}{col}{/col}{col}{/col}{col}{/col}{col}{/col}{col}{/col}{col}{/col}{col}{/col}{col}{/col}{col}{/col}{col}{/col}{col}{/col}{col}{/col}{col}{/col}{col}{/col}{col}{/col}{col}{/col}
{/colgroup}
{thead}
{tr}
{th=colspan:5} {/th}
{th} {/th}
{th=colspan:5}Tackles{/th}
{th=colspan:4}Challenges{/th}
{th=colspan:3}Blocks{/th}
{th=colspan:4} {/th}
{/tr}
{tr}
{th=scope:col}Player{/th}
{th=scope:col}Span{/th}
{th=scope:col|middle|bcolor:#eeeeee|nowrap|center}Nation{/th}
{th=scope:col|middle|bcolor:#eeeeee|nowrap|center}Pos{/th}
{th=scope:col}Squad{/th}
{th=scope:col|middle|bcolor:#eeeeee|nowrap|center}90s{/th}
{th=scope:col|middle|bcolor:#eeeeee|nowrap|center}Tkl{/th}
{th=scope:col|middle|bcolor:#eeeeee|nowrap|center}TklW{/th}
{th=scope:col|middle|bcolor:#eeeeee|nowrap|center}Def 3rd{/th}
{th=scope:col|middle|bcolor:#eeeeee|nowrap|center}Mid 3rd{/th}
{th=scope:col|middle|bcolor:#eeeeee|nowrap|center}Att 3rd{/th}
{th=scope:col|middle|bcolor:#eeeeee|nowrap|center}Tkl{/th}
{th=scope:col|middle|bcolor:#eeeeee|nowrap|center}Att{/th}
{th=scope:col|middle|bcolor:#eeeeee|nowrap|center}Tkl%{/th}
{th=scope:col|middle|bcolor:#eeeeee|nowrap|center}Lost{/th}
{th=scope:col}Blocks{/th}
{th=scope:col|middle|bcolor:#eeeeee|nowrap|center}Sh{/th}
{th=scope:col|middle|bcolor:#eeeeee|nowrap|center}Pass{/th}
{th=scope:col|middle|bcolor:#eeeeee|nowrap|center}Int{/th}
{th=scope:col}Tkl+Int{/th}
{th=scope:col|middle|bcolor:#eeeeee|nowrap|center}Clr{/th}
{th=scope:col|middle|bcolor:#eeeeee|nowrap|center}Err{/th}
{/tr}
{/thead}
{tbody}
{tr}
{th=scope:row}Mohamed Salah{/th}
{td}2023-24{/td}
{td}eg EGY{/td}
{td}FW{/td}
{td}Liverpool{/td}
{td}3.8{/td}
{td}5{/td}
{td}3{/td}
{td}0{/td}
{td}1{/td}
{td}4{/td}
{td}3{/td}
{td}4{/td}
{td}75.0{/td}
{td}1{/td}
{td}2{/td}
{td}0{/td}
{td}2{/td}
{td}1{/td}
{td}6{/td}
{td}0{/td}
{td}0{/td}
{/tr}
{tr}
{th=scope:row}Moussa Diaby{/th}
{td}2023-24{/td}
{td}fr FRA{/td}
{td}MF,FW{/td}
{td}Aston Villa{/td}
{td}3.5{/td}
{td}1{/td}
{td}1{/td}
{td}0{/td}
{td}1{/td}
{td}0{/td}
{td}1{/td}
{td}2{/td}
{td}50.0{/td}
{td}1{/td}
{td}1{/td}
{td}0{/td}
{td}1{/td}
{td}1{/td}
{td}2{/td}
{td}1{/td}
{td}0{/td}
{/tr}
{tr}
{th=scope:row}Donyell Malen{/th}
{td}2023-24{/td}
{td}nl NED{/td}
{td}FW{/td}
{td}Dortmund{/td}
{td}2.9{/td}
{td}2{/td}
{td}2{/td}
{td}0{/td}
{td}0{/td}
{td}2{/td}
{td}0{/td}
{td}1{/td}
{td}0.0{/td}
{td}1{/td}
{td}3{/td}
{td}0{/td}
{td}3{/td}
{td}1{/td}
{td}3{/td}
{td}0{/td}
{td}0{/td}
{/tr}
{tr}
{th=scope:row}Vinicius Júnior{/th}
{td}2023-24{/td}
{td}br BRA{/td}
{td}FW{/td}
{td}Real Madrid{/td}
{td}2.1{/td}
{td}0{/td}
{td}0{/td}
{td}0{/td}
{td}0{/td}
{td}0{/td}
{td}0{/td}
{td}1{/td}
{td}0.0{/td}
{td}1{/td}
{td}0{/td}
{td}0{/td}
{td}0{/td}
{td}0{/td}
{td}0{/td}
{td}1{/td}
{td}0{/td}
{/tr}
{tr}
{th=scope:row}Marco Asensio{/th}
{td}2023-24{/td}
{td}es ESP{/td}
{td}FW{/td}
{td}Paris S-G{/td}
{td}2.6{/td}
{td}1{/td}
{td}1{/td}
{td}0{/td}
{td}1{/td}
{td}0{/td}
{td}1{/td}
{td}2{/td}
{td}50.0{/td}
{td}1{/td}
{td}3{/td}
{td}0{/td}
{td}3{/td}
{td}0{/td}
{td}1{/td}
{td}1{/td}
{td}0{/td}
{/tr}
{tr}
{th=scope:row}Gabriel Martinelli{/th}
{td}2023-24{/td}
{td}br BRA{/td}
{td}FW{/td}
{td}Arsenal{/td}
{td}3.7{/td}
{td}2{/td}
{td}2{/td}
{td}0{/td}
{td}2{/td}
{td}0{/td}
{td}0{/td}
{td}2{/td}
{td}0.0{/td}
{td}2{/td}
{td}3{/td}
{td}0{/td}
{td}3{/td}
{td}2{/td}
{td}4{/td}
{td}0{/td}
{td}0{/td}
{/tr}
{/tbody}
[/xtable]

All the stats are from fbref, so just used them for a rough idea.
I can't say if this the full list of strikers of top strikers but if the guy is working out performing Matinelli for his defensive work rate then I will take that...
 
Interesting stats and discussion.

Hopefully you'll all keep me entertained for the full 11.5 hours of this flight to Shanghai - though at the rate at which I'm consuming Sauvignon Blanc I may be asleep shortly! 😀
 
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