sack Rafa

[Sunny]

Sunny, the newcastle fan mentality refers to the 'right' some fans think we have of being up there when these days we struggle to complete a free transfer or 6 month loan and you have the likes of city with NO constraints.

No-one says we have a right to be there. It has to be earnt that much is understood. Pretending that all we have sign and/or can sign is free transfers is again not true. We've spent millions on players.

If you think we should be competing for CL spots much less the league on free transfers, loan signings and youth products then you have to give the manager a bit of leeway and expect inconsistency, if we adopt the newcastle fan mentality and think it's all the managers fault and REPLACING him will make us superior without looking at the underlying causes or the bigger picture then we will end up hiring and firing managers frequently and im afraid in a lot worse position than we are now

The underlying cause is this. Benitez is unable to motivate or get the best out of the players he has. We've good enough players to be in the top 4. Injuries have hurt us yes but it still does not mean he should not get the most out of what he has. Again you're making wild and dreamt up assumptions that we will begin a hire and fire merry-go-round like Newcastle. Try basing your argument on a modicum of fact. I've said before - it's not all the managers fault. I want the Yanks out much more than Benitez but bringing in new investment and giving Benitez money to spend may not be the wisest thing to do given his indifferent transfer record.

You harp on about him winning the CL and FA cup. You seem to be forgetting we were extremely lucky in both those finals and, without Steven Gerrard (who was already here luckily for Rafa) we'd never have got to or won in either of those finals. Rafa rode his luck well but it's running out. Last year was an improvement it has to be said and yes the Yanks should have pushed the team on and invested in it but the FACT still remains Benitez is unable to motivate the players he has available or at least get them playing effective (not even attractive) football

If you can't see the logic of this then that's not my problem

Because you have no logic. It's a fuzzy mess of conjecture and assumption.

As for Benitez, very few managers would put up with what he does and make a success of it, infact im surprised he hasn't walked yet rather than being hung out to dry by the two broke yanks. if he does we will be in a worse position but im sure a few posters will feel smug until the next run of poor results

He either (a) turns the mess he has had a huge hand in creating around in the next month or (b) he should do the honourable thing AND resign.

 

[rebel23]

he spent the money we got through sales but the financial situation has got so bad is he can't even do that now and we struggle to complete loan deals and free transfers, that is the reality and what Benitez has to manage, the situation changes all the time and we're not going to hear the truth from our cunt of owners and Benitez is usually trying to put a brave face on things and projecting confidence

 

[Squiggles]

[quote author=rebel23 link=topic=38437.msg1033975#msg1033975 date=1263486243]
he spent the money we got through sales but the financial situation has got so bad is he can't even do that now and we struggle to complete loan deals and free transfers, that is the reality and what Benitez has to manage, the situation changes all the time and we're not going to hear the truth from our cunt of owners and Benitez is usually trying to put a brave face on things and projecting confidence
[/quote]

And prior to this summer?

 

[Fabio]

[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=38437.msg1033979#msg1033979 date=1263486427]
[quote author=rebel23 link=topic=38437.msg1033975#msg1033975 date=1263486243]
he spent the money we got through sales but the financial situation has got so bad is he can't even do that now and we struggle to complete loan deals and free transfers, that is the reality and what Benitez has to manage, the situation changes all the time and we're not going to hear the truth from our cunt of owners and Benitez is usually trying to put a brave face on things and projecting confidence
[/quote]

And prior to this summer?
[/quote]

Don't ask sensible questions

 

[rebel23]

prior to this summer we had the jan window where we sold Keane and didnt replace him - a fatal mistake

the £15m and 90k a week he was on simply disappeared and we've been scraping by since. The height of our ambitions in the transfer market is a million here or there, on a defender like the greek dude or Maxi which we're struggling to complete and have in time for the next game

the financial situation has deteriorated and there's no getting away from that. Benitez has mistakes prior but he has to be allowed to manage and put right his mistakes, any manager would expect and want to do this. the constraints are a big problem.

 

[Vlads Quiff]

Somebody remove the smokescreen of the Yanks and money from this debate if only for Rebel's sake.
Rebel, Benitez has had fucking pots and pots of money to spend, even this year he was allowed to buy a right back for £17m and a crocked player for even more.
All this has been brought about by him being stubborn, not learning from his previous mistakes and not prioritising a striker, and being crap with people, none of which are anything to do with the owners.

regards

 

[ibromurph]

[quote author=rebel23 link=topic=38437.msg1033975#msg1033975 date=1263486243]
he spent the money we got through sales but the financial situation has got so bad is he can't even do that now and we struggle to complete loan deals and free transfers, that is the reality and what Benitez has to manage, the situation changes all the time and we're not going to hear the truth from our cunt of owners and Benitez is usually trying to put a brave face on things and projecting confidence
[/quote]

All this talk about financial constraints fall down when you consider some of teams we've lost to this year, and some of Benitez's poor decisions.

You argue about lack of finances till the cows come home. Sure, he hasn't had the spending power of a United, Citeh or Chelsea. But he's had enough. Enough money to produce a team better than Reading FC. Enough money to play half decent football without resorting to hoofing every 3rd pass. Enough money to challenge for the title (or at least not have us embarrassingly fall out by October).

You can debate about how far he's been backed by the owners, but that's just sticking your head in the sand. They're not the ones managing a squad of 18+ full internationals who don't seem to know how to play as a team.
His resource-management is "ok" at best. His coaching of the team ultimately isn't good enough and is what concerns me most.

 

[rebel23]

[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=38437.msg1033989#msg1033989 date=1263486768]
Somebody remove the smokescreen of the Yanks and money from this debate if only for Rebel's sake.
Rebel, Benitez has had fucking pots and pots of money to spend, even this year he was allowed to buy a right back for £17m and a crocked player for even more.
All this has been brought about by him being stubborn, not learning from his previous mistakes and not prioritising a striker, and being crap with people, none of which are anything to do with the owners.

regards


[/quote]

£17m on a right back we needed as a club, we went for the best English player we could get and that is what we want isnt it?

17m on Aquilani as a replacement for Alonso, a classy midfield type, unfortunate he has been crocked but Rafa can't do anything aboutt that

if you can't see the logic behind these transfers and you just think Benitez is being extravagant spending 17m on a right back we allegedly dont need then you're obviously beyond help and your own prejudices are not allowing to accept these seemingly valid points

 

[Fabio]

[quote author=rebel23 link=topic=38437.msg1033993#msg1033993 date=1263487004]
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=38437.msg1033989#msg1033989 date=1263486768]
Somebody remove the smokescreen of the Yanks and money from this debate if only for Rebel's sake.
Rebel, Benitez has had fucking pots and pots of money to spend, even this year he was allowed to buy a right back for £17m and a crocked player for even more.
All this has been brought about by him being stubborn, not learning from his previous mistakes and not prioritising a striker, and being crap with people, none of which are anything to do with the owners.

regards


[/quote]

£17m on a right back we needed as a club, we went for the best English player we could get and that is what we want isnt it?

17m on Aquilani as a replacement for Alonso, a classy midfield type, unfortunate he has been crocked but Rafa can't do anything aboutt that

if you can't see the logic behind these transfers and you just think Benitez is being extravagant spending 17m on a right back we allegedly dont need then you're obviously beyond help and your own prejudices are not allowing to accept these seemingly valid points
[/quote]

He could've bought someone not injured?

And when is 17mil reasonable? We oculd've got Lahm for less, and he's fuckin better. We could've bought a young english midfielder. Scott Parker for example, and he wouldn't have been crocked or cost fuckloads

 

[Jürgen4PM]

As it stands right now, you can't defend the Aquilani signing Rebel. With regards to Magic though i think you're quite right.

 

[rebel23]

if Benitez took the £35m from sales of Alonso and Leto in the summer and spent it on 4 players in the 6-7m category he would be slaughtered for buying squad players who aren't good enough, an example where he can't win or where posters such as Vlad won't accept the point due to their own prejudice

 

[Avmenon]

Can everyone pls stop debating with Rebel?

We cld get relegated and he'd still be yapping tripe.

 

[Fabio]

[quote author=Avmenon link=topic=38437.msg1033999#msg1033999 date=1263487355]
Can everyone pls stop debating with Rebel?

We cld get relegated and he'd still be yapping tripe.
[/quote]

But it'd be the owners fault! Pickin the wrong players for benitez to buy.


i miss parry

 

[mark1975]

[quote author=rebel23 link=topic=38437.msg1033988#msg1033988 date=1263486745]
prior to this summer we had the jan window where we sold Keane and didnt replace him - a fatal mistake

the £15m and 90k a week he was on simply disappeared and we've been scraping by since. The height of our ambitions in the transfer market is a million here or there, on a defender like the greek dude or Maxi which we're struggling to complete and have in time for the next game

the financial situation has deteriorated and there's no getting away from that. Benitez has mistakes prior but he has to be allowed to manage and put right his mistakes, any manager would expect and want to do this. the constraints are a big problem.

[/quote]

To be fair, the January transfer window was during the start of the recession, things change, shit happens. There's no getting away from the fact that he has had significant money to spend and not always spent it well. Managers do make mistakes, but top managers buy the right players at the right moments that make significant improvements to the team. Every player is a gamble, but a manager has to show his quality at key times, both tactically and in the transfer market.

The Summer we bought Keane we spent around £40m. That should have been enough to see us build on the signing of Torres and push for the title. As it was, we pushed for the title with practically no help from the £40m spent. Imagine if we'd spent it well eh?

 

[rebel23]

[quote author=Fabio Alrighty-o link=topic=38437.msg1033994#msg1033994 date=1263487166]
[quote author=rebel23 link=topic=38437.msg1033993#msg1033993 date=1263487004]
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=38437.msg1033989#msg1033989 date=1263486768]
Somebody remove the smokescreen of the Yanks and money from this debate if only for Rebel's sake.
Rebel, Benitez has had fucking pots and pots of money to spend, even this year he was allowed to buy a right back for £17m and a crocked player for even more.
All this has been brought about by him being stubborn, not learning from his previous mistakes and not prioritising a striker, and being crap with people, none of which are anything to do with the owners.

regards


[/quote]

£17m on a right back we needed as a club, we went for the best English player we could get and that is what we want isnt it?

17m on Aquilani as a replacement for Alonso, a classy midfield type, unfortunate he has been crocked but Rafa can't do anything aboutt that

if you can't see the logic behind these transfers and you just think Benitez is being extravagant spending 17m on a right back we allegedly dont need then you're obviously beyond help and your own prejudices are not allowing to accept these seemingly valid points
[/quote]

He could've bought someone not injured?

And when is 17mil reasonable? We oculd've got Lahm for less, and he's fuckin better. We could've bought a young english midfielder. Scott Parker for example, and he wouldn't have been crocked or cost fuckloads
[/quote]

I would have loved to have seen the threads here, selling Alonso and buying Parker. As for Lahm, he signed a new contract and has never been available even to money bags city/barce but of course, LFC can do that deal because we're the best in the world

 

[Jürgen4PM]

Scott Parker is nearly 30 and would of cost at least £9m.

 

[ibromurph]

[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=38437.msg1033995#msg1033995 date=1263487256]
As it stands right now, you can't defend the Aquilani signing Rebel. With regards to Magic though i think you're quite right.
[/quote]

Honest question. Has the quote system even been brought in yet?

As for Magic. I like him and think he could be a top player but 17m was about 10m too much. Even at a stretch it should have been 10m at most. If not, as Fabio pointed out nobody ever said the RB we bought had to be English.

We could have got a Prem-proven good midfielder in Noble or Barry for less, and a cheap Arbeloa-type foreign FB.. and spent the big money on another forward player. But hey, it's still too early to judge the purchases and I do think Aquilani and Johnson are good players anyway so I can't be too critical of Rafa there.

 

[Jürgen4PM]

[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=38437.msg1034003#msg1034003 date=1263487434]
[quote author=rebel23 link=topic=38437.msg1033988#msg1033988 date=1263486745]
prior to this summer we had the jan window where we sold Keane and didnt replace him - a fatal mistake

the £15m and 90k a week he was on simply disappeared and we've been scraping by since. The height of our ambitions in the transfer market is a million here or there, on a defender like the greek dude or Maxi which we're struggling to complete and have in time for the next game

the financial situation has deteriorated and there's no getting away from that. Benitez has mistakes prior but he has to be allowed to manage and put right his mistakes, any manager would expect and want to do this. the constraints are a big problem.

[/quote]

To be fair, the January transfer window was during the start of the recession, things change, shit happens. There's no getting away from the fact that he has had significant money to spend and not always spent it well. Managers do make mistakes, but top managers buy the right players at the right moments that make significant improvements to the team. Every player is a gamble, but a manager has to show his quality at key times, both tactically and in the transfer market.

The Summer we bought Keane we spent around £40m. That should have been enough to see us build on the signing of Torres and push for the title. As it was, we pushed for the title with practically no help from the £40m spent. Imagine if we'd spent it well eh?
[/quote]

Fair points Mark (and all true imo).

Once Rafa had faced up to the fact that Keane was one of his worst buys (and duly shipped him out), it would of been handy if he could of used the money raised to get in a new striker to fill the void.

 

[Avmenon]

I think we're missing a valuable point tho; Rafa's skill in buying a shit player, or buying a player we dont need or for the wrong position is legendary.

But thats not why in the sht; its because he cant get his players to want to win.

Or play football,even.

What, we havent spent as much as fucking Reading and Pompey?

 

[Fabio]

And how many were leaping at the thought of buying a crocked player? Oncey was excited understandably, however no manager thinks it's a good idea to replace an important player with someone who'll be injured for at least 8 weeks and rely heavily on squad players who haven't set the world alight.

As for Johnson, 17mil for a player who is a luxury. We needed someone with an ability to attack yet not break the bank because we needed strengthening in other areas. I was happy we signed him but it concerned me that it might be foolhardy. .

 

[rebel23]

yes the quota system is in, 5 players need to be English. i'm the first to want us to just sign foreigners as I think they're better value for money overall but the rules have changed and we need some English players.

Johnson was a logical signing for the club to make on this basis, it wasn't a case of Benitez being extravagant and going out spending 17m on a right back for the sake of it and ignoring other areas and as I said the same posters such as Vlad, Fabio and the baying mob would be moaning if he spent 35m on 4 players 3 of whom say proved not good enough. He would have wasted another 35m/not good enough in the transfer market, etc

 

[Jürgen4PM]

[quote author=ibromurph link=topic=38437.msg1034011#msg1034011 date=1263487710]
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=38437.msg1033995#msg1033995 date=1263487256]
As it stands right now, you can't defend the Aquilani signing Rebel. With regards to Magic though i think you're quite right.
[/quote]

Honest question. Has the quote system even been brought in yet?

As for Magic. I like him and think he could be a top player but 17m was about 10m too much. Even at a stretch it should have been 10m at most. If not, as Fabio pointed out nobody ever said the RB we bought had to be English.

We could have got a Prem-proven good midfielder in Noble or Barry for less, and a cheap Arbeloa-type foreign FB.. and spent the big money on another forward player. But hey, it's still too early to judge the purchases and I do think Aquilani and Johnson are good players anyway so I can't be too critical of Rafa there.
[/quote]

I think it's next season mate (i could be wrong)

 

[KopKing]

Keep on fighting the fight Rebel, the majority are usually wrong anyway!

 

[Jürgen4PM]

[quote author=Fabio Alrighty-o link=topic=38437.msg1034015#msg1034015 date=1263487952]
And how many were leaping at the thought of buying a crocked player? Oncey was excited understandably, however no manager thinks it's a good idea to replace an important player with someone who'll be injured for at least 8 weeks and rely heavily on squad players who haven't set the world alight.

As for Johnson, 17mil for a player who is a luxury. We needed someone with an ability to attack yet not break the bank because we needed strengthening in other areas. I was happy we signed him but it concerned me that it might be foolhardy. .
[/quote]

To be fair Fabio nearly everyone on here was shouting out for quality over quantity.

 

[ibromurph]

[quote author=rebel23 link=topic=38437.msg1034016#msg1034016 date=1263487962]
yes the quota system is in, 5 players need to be English. i'm the first to want us to just sign foreigners as I think they're better value for money overall but the rules have changed and we need some English players.

Johnson was a logical signing for the club to make on this basis, it wasn't a case of Benitez being extravagant and going out spending 17m on a right back for the sake of it and ignoring other areas and as I said the same posters such as Vlad and the baying mob would be moaning if he spent 35m on 4 players 3 of whom say proved not good enough. He would have wasted another 35m/not good enough in the transfer market, etc
[/quote]

That may be true enough Rebel.. and if we all conceded that he spent well enough this year (unlike the prebious summer). It still doesn't take away from the fact that, where it counts, on the pitch, we've been atrocious. A point that you seem to be dodging.

Even when you take into account injuries, suspensions and just plain bad luck, it still doesn't account for some of poor decisions and god-awful football. His coaching of our players simply isn't good enough. Which is why I seem to remember the owners making a point of telling him to stop talking about money and start coaching his team. We should be beating the likes of Pompey and Reading. There's just no defence for these defeats which have become all too frequent.

 

[Fabio]

The quota system is only an excuse to buy johnson. amazingly we could've bought some english players for any position! however we buy the one where there aren't many talented english versions of, so the price would jump. Central mids? We could've bought a few young english talents instead of Aqua, or at least one solid talent like noble. Right mid? Yes, for example adam johnson is an option better/as good as kuyt. Striker? Darren Bent as back up would've been lovely.

Also, i rate Aqua and Johnson highly. I wanted them here because i thought they could shoot us into top spot. However time makes fools of us all, and now i wish things panned out differently

And i do agree R4pm, i wanted quality, however picking the most bizzare position to spend 17mil on is my problem

 

[rebel23]

[quote author=ibromurph link=topic=38437.msg1034024#msg1034024 date=1263488524]
[quote author=rebel23 link=topic=38437.msg1034016#msg1034016 date=1263487962]
yes the quota system is in, 5 players need to be English. i'm the first to want us to just sign foreigners as I think they're better value for money overall but the rules have changed and we need some English players.

Johnson was a logical signing for the club to make on this basis, it wasn't a case of Benitez being extravagant and going out spending 17m on a right back for the sake of it and ignoring other areas and as I said the same posters such as Vlad and the baying mob would be moaning if he spent 35m on 4 players 3 of whom say proved not good enough. He would have wasted another 35m/not good enough in the transfer market, etc
[/quote]

That may be true enough Rebel.. and if we all conceded that he spent well enough this year (unlike the prebious summer). It still doesn't take away from the fact that, where it counts, on the pitch, we've been atrocious. A point that you seem to be dodging.

Even when you take into account injuries, suspensions and just plain bad luck, it still doesn't account for some of poor decisions and god-awful football. His coaching of our players simply isn't good enough. Which is why I seem to remember the owners making a point of telling him to stop talking about money and start coaching his team. We should be beating the likes of Pompey and Reading. There's just no defence for these defeats which have become all too frequent.
[/quote]

you're just waving your hands in the air and saying we should be beating teams because we're Liverpool. I wish it were so easy and i'm sure Benitez does, he doesn't lose on purpose you know?

 

[KopKing]

[quote author=Fabio Alrighty-o link=topic=38437.msg1034025#msg1034025 date=1263488615]
The quota system is only an excuse to buy johnson. amazingly we could've bought some english players for any position! however we buy the one where there aren't many talented english versions of, so the price would jump. Central mids? We could've bought a few young english talents instead of Aqua, or at least one solid talent like noble. Right mid? Yes, for example adam johnson is an option better/as good as kuyt. Striker? Darren Bent as back up would've been lovely.

Also, i rate Aqua and Johnson highly. I wanted them here because i thought they could shoot us into top spot. However time makes fools of us all, and now i wish things panned out differently

And i do agree R4pm, i wanted quality, however picking the most bizzare position to spend 17mil on is my problem
[/quote]

Adam Johnson, Mark Noble and Darren fucking Bent. Keep it up genius.

 

[Fabio]

[quote author=KopKing link=topic=38437.msg1034031#msg1034031 date=1263489029]
[quote author=Fabio Alrighty-o link=topic=38437.msg1034025#msg1034025 date=1263488615]
The quota system is only an excuse to buy johnson. amazingly we could've bought some english players for any position! however we buy the one where there aren't many talented english versions of, so the price would jump. Central mids? We could've bought a few young english talents instead of Aqua, or at least one solid talent like noble. Right mid? Yes, for example adam johnson is an option better/as good as kuyt. Striker? Darren Bent as back up would've been lovely.

Also, i rate Aqua and Johnson highly. I wanted them here because i thought they could shoot us into top spot. However time makes fools of us all, and now i wish things panned out differently

And i do agree R4pm, i wanted quality, however picking the most bizzare position to spend 17mil on is my problem
[/quote]

Adam Johnson, Mark Noble and Darren fucking Bent. Keep it up genius.
[/quote]

So your problem with any of those players who could be/are better than what we're playing at the minute is........?

 

[KopKing]

[quote author=Fabio Alrighty-o link=topic=38437.msg1034032#msg1034032 date=1263489118]
[quote author=KopKing link=topic=38437.msg1034031#msg1034031 date=1263489029]
[quote author=Fabio Alrighty-o link=topic=38437.msg1034025#msg1034025 date=1263488615]
The quota system is only an excuse to buy johnson. amazingly we could've bought some english players for any position! however we buy the one where there aren't many talented english versions of, so the price would jump. Central mids? We could've bought a few young english talents instead of Aqua, or at least one solid talent like noble. Right mid? Yes, for example adam johnson is an option better/as good as kuyt. Striker? Darren Bent as back up would've been lovely.

Also, i rate Aqua and Johnson highly. I wanted them here because i thought they could shoot us into top spot. However time makes fools of us all, and now i wish things panned out differently

And i do agree R4pm, i wanted quality, however picking the most bizzare position to spend 17mil on is my problem
[/quote]

Adam Johnson, Mark Noble and Darren fucking Bent. Keep it up genius.
[/quote]

So your problem with any of those players who could be/are better than what we're playing at the minute is........?
[/quote]

My problem is they are shite players, thats why they are at the clubs they are at.