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sack Rafa

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[quote author=Niall K link=topic=38437.msg1034652#msg1034652 date=1263557040]
[quote author=the_khl link=topic=38437.msg1034592#msg1034592 date=1263554974]
I really really hope that isn't true Sunny.

Despite whatever people may think I'm sure it'll harm our chances of reaching 4th even further.

This Season has been and sadly still is abysmal. It's been a battle to survive almost from the off and the extreme ammount of injuries to key-players has ruined everything half decent.

Excuses, excuses, excuses people say. And they are damn right.

But sometimes excuses are actually valid. No-one would've managed to take us all the way to the top at this stage, baring in mind the ammount of challenges constantly piling up. From injuries to beachballs to goals scored against deep into injurytime.

I can't think of one single Season (maybe apart from the 88/89 Season) where we've rode our bad luck so thorough as has been the case this Season).

I'd be livid if Rafa were to be sacked at this stage. I'd be extremely sad if he left on his own despite whatever the masses on here should think.

Stay Rafa. For know at least.
[/quote]

We have had some bad luck this season with injuries,incidents during games etc. But we have also been so bad that nothing can excuse our performances.

Its been sad to watch our season unravel so quickly. But the fear and lack of motivation which has infected the players this season has to be sorted and quick or things will only get worse.
I dont think Rafa can pull another rabbit out of the hat and turn things around as he has in the past and while he still has the respect if not the full backing of the majority of fans its probably best if he goes now.
If it happens I will always remember him as someone who always stuck to what he believed was best for the club and gave us some fantastic memories along the way.
[/quote]
Good post and I agree that some of our performances has been so bad that no excuses would've sufficed.

I just don't think it's that simple. The players confidence has been challenged time after time again. Playing rather well over the course of 80 minutes and then they suddenly looked nervous and headless as League One players facing Barcelona (the Lyon-games in particular) conceeding in OT. Happened twice and those were indeed Season-deciding games that made the players tremble even more.

Then we've got Gerrard and Torres back a couple of times already just for them to be injured again. Aquilani constantly beeing set back whenever he was to get his full debut. Masher beeing redcarded and injured etc etc the bad-luck list is simply far to long to be neglected as having a severe influence on everyone inside and outside the club.
 
[quote author=the_khl link=topic=38437.msg1034691#msg1034691 date=1263559247]
[quote author=Niall K link=topic=38437.msg1034652#msg1034652 date=1263557040]
[quote author=the_khl link=topic=38437.msg1034592#msg1034592 date=1263554974]
I really really hope that isn't true Sunny.

Despite whatever people may think I'm sure it'll harm our chances of reaching 4th even further.

This Season has been and sadly still is abysmal. It's been a battle to survive almost from the off and the extreme ammount of injuries to key-players has ruined everything half decent.

Excuses, excuses, excuses people say. And they are damn right.

But sometimes excuses are actually valid. No-one would've managed to take us all the way to the top at this stage, baring in mind the ammount of challenges constantly piling up. From injuries to beachballs to goals scored against deep into injurytime.

I can't think of one single Season (maybe apart from the 88/89 Season) where we've rode our bad luck so thorough as has been the case this Season).

I'd be livid if Rafa were to be sacked at this stage. I'd be extremely sad if he left on his own despite whatever the masses on here should think.

Stay Rafa. For know at least.
[/quote]

We have had some bad luck this season with injuries,incidents during games etc. But we have also been so bad that nothing can excuse our performances.

Its been sad to watch our season unravel so quickly. But the fear and lack of motivation which has infected the players this season has to be sorted and quick or things will only get worse.
I dont think Rafa can pull another rabbit out of the hat and turn things around as he has in the past and while he still has the respect if not the full backing of the majority of fans its probably best if he goes now.
If it happens I will always remember him as someone who always stuck to what he believed was best for the club and gave us some fantastic memories along the way.
[/quote]
Good post and I agree that some of our performances has been so bad that no excuses would've sufficed.

I just don't think it's that simple. The players confidence has been challenged time after time again. Playing rather well over the course of 80 minutes and then they suddenly looked nervous and headless as League One players facing Barcelona (the Lyon-games in particular) conceeding in OT. Happened twice and those were indeed Season-deciding games that made the players tremble even more.

Then we've got Gerrard and Torres back a couple of times already just for them to be injured again. Aquilani constantly beeing set back whenever he was to get his full debut. Masher beeing redcarded and injured etc etc the bad-luck list is simply far to long to be neglected as having a severe influence on everyone inside and outside the club.
[/quote]

You make your own luck KHL. Last season we salvaged a lot of games very late on because we believed we could do it. Now the complete opposite is the case. If we get a lead we cant hang on, if we go behind we fall apart.
 
ha ha@ Bunnyman's Riera gag

I agree with Macca, some of our players need to be taken out and shot, regardless of what happens to Rafa.
 
[quote author=gene hughes link=topic=38437.msg1034697#msg1034697 date=1263559776]
ha ha@ Bunnyman's Riera gag

I agree with Macca, some of our players need to be taken out and shot, regardless of what happens to Rafa.
[/quote]

If Gerrard and Torres were horses they would have been by now
 
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=38437.msg1034689#msg1034689 date=1263559137]
[quote author=gkmacca link=topic=38437.msg1034646#msg1034646 date=1263556774]
[quote author=Asim link=topic=38437.msg1034641#msg1034641 date=1263556396]
the players look like they have no idea [/quote]

Then they deserve nothing but contempt. I'm disgusted by their attitude this season. Second division players put in more effort than they do.
[/quote]

I agree with that. It's not just Rafa accountable. Their attitude stinks.
[/quote]

If it were one or two players, they would be held accountable. When it's the whole team, including our best players, you have to figure that there's something deeper going on. You can't fire the whole squad anyway - changing the manager is the only solution in these circumstances.
 
[quote author=Niall K link=topic=38437.msg1034695#msg1034695 date=1263559583]
[quote author=the_khl link=topic=38437.msg1034691#msg1034691 date=1263559247]
[quote author=Niall K link=topic=38437.msg1034652#msg1034652 date=1263557040]
[quote author=the_khl link=topic=38437.msg1034592#msg1034592 date=1263554974]
I really really hope that isn't true Sunny.

Despite whatever people may think I'm sure it'll harm our chances of reaching 4th even further.

This Season has been and sadly still is abysmal. It's been a battle to survive almost from the off and the extreme ammount of injuries to key-players has ruined everything half decent.

Excuses, excuses, excuses people say. And they are damn right.

But sometimes excuses are actually valid. No-one would've managed to take us all the way to the top at this stage, baring in mind the ammount of challenges constantly piling up. From injuries to beachballs to goals scored against deep into injurytime.

I can't think of one single Season (maybe apart from the 88/89 Season) where we've rode our bad luck so thorough as has been the case this Season).

I'd be livid if Rafa were to be sacked at this stage. I'd be extremely sad if he left on his own despite whatever the masses on here should think.

Stay Rafa. For know at least.
[/quote]

We have had some bad luck this season with injuries,incidents during games etc. But we have also been so bad that nothing can excuse our performances.

Its been sad to watch our season unravel so quickly. But the fear and lack of motivation which has infected the players this season has to be sorted and quick or things will only get worse.
I dont think Rafa can pull another rabbit out of the hat and turn things around as he has in the past and while he still has the respect if not the full backing of the majority of fans its probably best if he goes now.
If it happens I will always remember him as someone who always stuck to what he believed was best for the club and gave us some fantastic memories along the way.
[/quote]
Good post and I agree that some of our performances has been so bad that no excuses would've sufficed.

I just don't think it's that simple. The players confidence has been challenged time after time again. Playing rather well over the course of 80 minutes and then they suddenly looked nervous and headless as League One players facing Barcelona (the Lyon-games in particular) conceeding in OT. Happened twice and those were indeed Season-deciding games that made the players tremble even more.

Then we've got Gerrard and Torres back a couple of times already just for them to be injured again. Aquilani constantly beeing set back whenever he was to get his full debut. Masher beeing redcarded and injured etc etc the bad-luck list is simply far to long to be neglected as having a severe influence on everyone inside and outside the club.
[/quote]

You make your own luck KHL. Last season we salvaged a lot of games very late on because we believed we could do it. Now the complete opposite is the case. If we get a lead we cant hang on, if we go behind we fall apart.
[/quote]
So you're accusing the players of not wanting to play (be lucky) since they are constantly getting themselves injured?
 
[quote author=the_khl link=topic=38437.msg1034705#msg1034705 date=1263559974]
[quote author=Niall K link=topic=38437.msg1034695#msg1034695 date=1263559583]
[quote author=the_khl link=topic=38437.msg1034691#msg1034691 date=1263559247]
[quote author=Niall K link=topic=38437.msg1034652#msg1034652 date=1263557040]
[quote author=the_khl link=topic=38437.msg1034592#msg1034592 date=1263554974]
I really really hope that isn't true Sunny.

Despite whatever people may think I'm sure it'll harm our chances of reaching 4th even further.

This Season has been and sadly still is abysmal. It's been a battle to survive almost from the off and the extreme ammount of injuries to key-players has ruined everything half decent.

Excuses, excuses, excuses people say. And they are damn right.

But sometimes excuses are actually valid. No-one would've managed to take us all the way to the top at this stage, baring in mind the ammount of challenges constantly piling up. From injuries to beachballs to goals scored against deep into injurytime.

I can't think of one single Season (maybe apart from the 88/89 Season) where we've rode our bad luck so thorough as has been the case this Season).

I'd be livid if Rafa were to be sacked at this stage. I'd be extremely sad if he left on his own despite whatever the masses on here should think.

Stay Rafa. For know at least.
[/quote]

We have had some bad luck this season with injuries,incidents during games etc. But we have also been so bad that nothing can excuse our performances.

Its been sad to watch our season unravel so quickly. But the fear and lack of motivation which has infected the players this season has to be sorted and quick or things will only get worse.
I dont think Rafa can pull another rabbit out of the hat and turn things around as he has in the past and while he still has the respect if not the full backing of the majority of fans its probably best if he goes now.
If it happens I will always remember him as someone who always stuck to what he believed was best for the club and gave us some fantastic memories along the way.
[/quote]
Good post and I agree that some of our performances has been so bad that no excuses would've sufficed.

I just don't think it's that simple. The players confidence has been challenged time after time again. Playing rather well over the course of 80 minutes and then they suddenly looked nervous and headless as League One players facing Barcelona (the Lyon-games in particular) conceeding in OT. Happened twice and those were indeed Season-deciding games that made the players tremble even more.

Then we've got Gerrard and Torres back a couple of times already just for them to be injured again. Aquilani constantly beeing set back whenever he was to get his full debut. Masher beeing redcarded and injured etc etc the bad-luck list is simply far to long to be neglected as having a severe influence on everyone inside and outside the club.
[/quote]

You make your own luck KHL. Last season we salvaged a lot of games very late on because we believed we could do it. Now the complete opposite is the case. If we get a lead we cant hang on, if we go behind we fall apart.
[/quote]
So you're accusing the players of not wanting to play (be lucky) since they are constantly getting themselves injured?
[/quote]

No.

The only thing I've accused them of (apart from being mostly rubbish) is playing this season without the belief and confidence that they can get results.
 
[quote author=gkmacca link=topic=38437.msg1034623#msg1034623 date=1263555719]
[quote author=TheBunnyman link=topic=38437.msg1034619#msg1034619 date=1263555610]
[quote author=gkmacca link=topic=38437.msg1034615#msg1034615 date=1263555554]
To be fair, most football rumours gain pace.
[/quote]

If only Albert Riera was a football rumour.
[/quote]

Ha ha, very good.

But if any player needs motivating to play for Liverpool he doesn't deserve to be at the club. I've zero sympathy with any of them.
[/quote]

I think that's an admirable, but ultimately unrealistic way of viewing things in this day and age. Not every player who plays for this club has spent a childhood supporting it. I'm sure they appreciate the magic and history once they arrive but for most, football is a profession and like any other profession, managers can play a big part in motivating their employees.

If I felt unappreciated in my job and knew I would be better appreciated elsewhere I would obviously consider my position. I might be trying to do my best but if there are underlying doubts and concerns then on some level that is likely to affect my performance.

You can't simply assume that a footballer's motivation and output will remain constant just because he plays for Liverpool. I think that's half the problem with Rafa's scientific approach. It seems to assume too many constants without any appreciation for the variables.
 
Unappreciated Del ? Football players have no right to feel unappreciated. Consider their position ? The fucking front of them actually "considering their positions" when playing like a bunch of girls would make my blood boil.

How about if you, in your job, knew you were performing shit and because of your actions someone else was likely to get sacked because of it ? What would your reaction be ?
 
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=38437.msg1034747#msg1034747 date=1263562239]
Unappreciated Del ? Football players have no right to feel unappreciated. Consider their position ? The fucking front of them actually "considering their positions" when playing like a bunch of girls would make my blood boil.

How about if you, in your job, knew you were performing shit and because of your actions someone else was likely to get sacked because of it ? What would your reaction be ?
[/quote]


They're human beings. The fact that the team isn't performing at all isn't just down to cunts like Lucas and Insua not being very good. It's part psychological.

So morale, confidence, positivity, determination, will-to-win...all those things are part and parcel of what a manager has to instil in his team, apart from the tactics/formations/ transfer of players in and out.
 
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=38437.msg1034751#msg1034751 date=1263562506]
Rafa's just done another "facts" press conference.
[/quote]

Has he? Has he made a tool of himself ?
 
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=38437.msg1034751#msg1034751 date=1263562506]
Rafa's just done another "facts" press conference.
[/quote]

Oh no!
This can only be bad.
 
[quote author=Brendan link=topic=38437.msg1034748#msg1034748 date=1263562440]

They're human beings. The fact that the team isn't performing at all isn't just down to cunts like Lucas and Insua not being very good. It's part psychological.

So morale, confidence, positivity, determination, will-to-win...all those things are part and parcel of what a manager has to instil in his team, apart from the tactics/formations/ transfer of players in and out.
[/quote]

Yeh but man-management and motivation aside there are times where you know you need to give yourself a kick up the arse. The players should be doing this. What about Gerrard ? He's club captain. He should be instilling some of those values you've listed. We're a team. And as much as lot depends on strong leadership everyone forms a part of that team and has personal responsibility to do their best. Which they're not
 
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=38437.msg1034751#msg1034751 date=1263562506]
Rafa's just done another "facts" press conference.
[/quote]

What "Facts" did he come up with this time ?
 
[quote author=Stu link=topic=38437.msg1034755#msg1034755 date=1263562715]
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=38437.msg1034751#msg1034751 date=1263562506]
Rafa's just done another "facts" press conference.
[/quote]

Oh no!
This can only be bad.
[/quote]

It wasn't too bad Stu (i'll try to find a copy to post).
 
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=38437.msg1034747#msg1034747 date=1263562239]
Unappreciated Del ? Football players have no right to feel unappreciated. Consider their position ? The fucking front of them actually "considering their positions" when playing like a bunch of girls would make my blood boil.

How about if you, in your job, knew you were performing shit and because of your actions someone else was likely to get sacked because of it ? What would your reaction be ?
[/quote]

That depends entirely on whether I felt that person deserved to be sacked. I'd be more likely to try my hardest if I:

a) believed him to be competent and
b) respected him as a person

If none of the above are true then I would suggest that my motivation would suffer as a result, as would my resolve to see someone I neither respect nor have any kind of rapport with, remain in the job simply because I was making them look good.

If Rafa is incapable of forging effective and mutually respectful relationships with his players, then I don't think it should come as too much of a surprise if some or all of them begin underperforming. In an ideal world, the wage/labour exchange would and perhaps should, be a constant. In reality however, it really isn't, even in the privileged world of top-tier footballers.
 
[quote author=TheBunnyman link=topic=38437.msg1034701#msg1034701 date=1263559926]
You can't fire the whole squad anyway - changing the manager is the only solution in these circumstances.
[/quote]

And don't they know it! Obscenely over-paid and cowardly with it. Whoever takes over I won't give a damn about these players. They deserve nothing but a quick exit.
 
[quote author=gkmacca link=topic=38437.msg1034765#msg1034765 date=1263563409]
[quote author=TheBunnyman link=topic=38437.msg1034701#msg1034701 date=1263559926]
You can't fire the whole squad anyway - changing the manager is the only solution in these circumstances.
[/quote]

And don't they know it! Obscenely over-paid and cowardly with it. Whoever takes over I won't give a damn about these players. They deserve nothing but a quick exit.
[/quote]

What do you think of Steven Gerrards captaincy this season Macca?
 
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=38437.msg1034762#msg1034762 date=1263563263]
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=38437.msg1034747#msg1034747 date=1263562239]
Unappreciated Del ? Football players have no right to feel unappreciated. Consider their position ? The fucking front of them actually "considering their positions" when playing like a bunch of girls would make my blood boil.

How about if you, in your job, knew you were performing shit and because of your actions someone else was likely to get sacked because of it ? What would your reaction be ?
[/quote]

That depends entirely on whether I felt that person deserved to be sacked. I'd be more likely to try my hardest if I:

a) believed him to be competent and
b) respected him as a person

If none of the above are true then I would suggest that my motivation would suffer as a result, as would my resolve to see someone I neither respect nor have any kind of rapport with, remain in the job simply because I was making them look good.

If Rafa is incapable of forging effective and mutually respectful relationships with his players, then I don't think it should come as too much of a surprise if some or all of them begin underperforming. In an ideal world, the wage/labour exchange would and perhaps should, be a constant. In reality however, it really isn't, even in the privileged world of top-tier footballers.
[/quote]

OK. So let me play a different angle. What about if you knew your actions were going to cost you lost business, lost revenue, immense customer dissatisfaction and inability to attract top talent. Would you stand by a let that happen just so you could dislodge the colleague you couldn't establish a relationship with ?

Mind you I can't apply that analogy to football players because most of them are thick as pigshit. They can do almost anything with a football apart from write their names on it.
 
[quote author=gkmacca link=topic=38437.msg1034769#msg1034769 date=1263563618]
A disgrace. He's got the emotional age of a 12 year old.
[/quote]

Agreed.

If a new manager does come in, hopefully he won't automatically retain him as skipper.
 
I've had 2 texts today to say that the Americans are now flying in for 'emergency talks' with the feeling being Rafa will be shown the door Monday.
I don't know if this is true, I'm just passing it on.
Leave now or go Monday seems to be the rumour.
 
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=38437.msg1034770#msg1034770 date=1263563642]
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=38437.msg1034762#msg1034762 date=1263563263]
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=38437.msg1034747#msg1034747 date=1263562239]
Unappreciated Del ? Football players have no right to feel unappreciated. Consider their position ? The fucking front of them actually "considering their positions" when playing like a bunch of girls would make my blood boil.

How about if you, in your job, knew you were performing shit and because of your actions someone else was likely to get sacked because of it ? What would your reaction be ?
[/quote]

That depends entirely on whether I felt that person deserved to be sacked. I'd be more likely to try my hardest if I:

a) believed him to be competent and
b) respected him as a person

If none of the above are true then I would suggest that my motivation would suffer as a result, as would my resolve to see someone I neither respect nor have any kind of rapport with, remain in the job simply because I was making them look good.

If Rafa is incapable of forging effective and mutually respectful relationships with his players, then I don't think it should come as too much of a surprise if some or all of them begin underperforming. In an ideal world, the wage/labour exchange would and perhaps should, be a constant. In reality however, it really isn't, even in the privileged world of top-tier footballers.
[/quote]

OK. So let me play a different angle. What about if you knew your actions were going to cost you lost business, lost revenue, immense customer dissatisfaction and inability to attract top talent. Would you stand by a let that happen just so you could dislodge the colleague you couldn't establish a relationship with ?

Mind you I can't apply that analogy to football players because most of them are thick as pigshit. They can do almost anything with a football apart from write their names on it.
[/quote]

Sorry mate, I think I'm losing track of your analogy. The 'colleague' you speak of is the manager, right? In which case if the manager is aware of those things then he should resign.

Like Brendan said, the players are human. They all respond to different stimuli, and it's the manager's job to identify what they are and exploit them. Don't get me wrong, the players are not absolved of responsibility. Indeed, a number of our so-called 'stars' (most notably captain fantastic) need to ask serious questions of themselves, regardless of what happens to Benitez. We're not talking about isolated cases here however, and when the employees are not performing collectively, the buck has to stop with the manager.
 
[quote author=gkmacca link=topic=38437.msg1034769#msg1034769 date=1263563618]
A disgrace. He's got the emotional age of a 12 year old.
[/quote]

*Concurs*

Jamie would be my captain, with Masch as my 2nd, the problem is if that happened I think Stevie would spit the dummy out and he'd either be shit for quite a time or he'd see it as another reason to think about leaving (that and no title).
 
Gerrard is a shit captain. And a sulky little girl with it when things don't go his way.
 
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=38437.msg1034783#msg1034783 date=1263564315]
Like Brendan said, the players are human. They all respond to different stimuli, and it's the manager's job to identify what they are and exploit them. Don't get me wrong, the players are not absolved of responsibility. Indeed, a number of our so-called 'stars' (most notably captain fantastic) need to ask serious questions of themselves, regardless of what happens to Benitez. We're not talking about isolated cases here however, and when the employees are not performing collectively, the buck has to stop with the manager.
[/quote]

Which I completely agree with. But I also feel the players have to start taking some responsibility and giving themselves a slap to wake the fuck up. That's all really
 
It's not just Gerrard who's accountable.

Mascherano is captain of Argentina
Kuyt ex captain
Carragher would be captain of 99% of sides in world football
Torres ex captain.

That's 5 players with captain material in the first team playing week in, week out. Shocking really.
 
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=38437.msg1034779#msg1034779 date=1263564085]
I've had 2 texts today to say that the Americans are now flying in for 'emergency talks' with the feeling being Rafa will be shown the door Monday.
I don't know if this is true, I'm just passing it on.
Leave now or go Monday seems to be the rumour.
[/quote]

"The Times" today, despite a whole clutch of articles critical of Rafa, is adamant that he won't be sacked.
 
[quote author=Fallon link=topic=38437.msg1034784#msg1034784 date=1263564326]
[quote author=gkmacca link=topic=38437.msg1034769#msg1034769 date=1263563618]
A disgrace. He's got the emotional age of a 12 year old.
[/quote]

*Concurs*

Jamie would be my captain, with Masch as my 2nd, the problem is if that happened I think Stevie would spit the dummy out and he'd either be shit for quite a time or he'd see it as another reason to think about leaving (that and no title).
[/quote]

Masher my arse. He's a fucking liability
 
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