• You may have to login or register before you can post and view our exclusive members only forums.
    To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Rooney - Heskey

Status
Not open for further replies.

mark1975

Moderator
Moderator
Heskey did a good job on Saturday, but with all this talk of him being dropped tomorrow, and the recent view that Rooney plays best alongside the big man, I thought Rooney's record was interesting with his three potential strike partners:

Minutes between goals:

With Heskey - 37
With Crouch - 32
With Defoe - 65

Clearly he likes a big man alongside him, though personally tomorrow I'd be tempted to play Defoe who's a bit more dynamic and a good goalscorer, but anyway.. Who do you think should play? Stevie?
 
What's his record for minutes between goals when played as a lone striker for United?

I think he's fine with Heskey against the weaker teams, and 442 will probably help England to beat Algeria and Slovenia, but as soon as we come up against an Argentina or Germany, we'll need the extra man in midfield. IMO we ought to be playing 451 now, so the players get used to the formation, but clearly that's not going to happen.
 
[quote author=TheBunnyman link=topic=40632.msg1121708#msg1121708 date=1276758793]
What's his record for minutes between goals when played as a lone striker for United?

I think he's fine with Heskey against the weaker teams, and 442 will probably help England to beat Algeria and Slovenia, but as soon as we come up against an Argentina or Germany, we'll need the extra man in midfield. IMO we ought to be playing 451 now, so the players get used to the formation, but clearly that's not going to happen.

[/quote]


Are the wide men upto scratch though? That's the real issue with us packing the midfield, not that I don't rate Cole or Lennon, but ideally in a 5 man midfield, the wide players would be a bit more prolific, given Lampard doesn't look like weighing in with goals in an England shirt anytime soon.
 
I'm a big fan of playing our best players. I'm also a fan of strikers who score goals. I think the best front 6 we can field is Gerrard, Lampard, Barry, Cole, Lennon, and Rooney. I also see no reason why those players couldn't grow into a formidable combination. If we're struggling to score then we also have the option of removing Barry and adding another (goalscoring) striker (Crouch or Defoe).

Of course, the main problem with not playing a big man from the start, is that England have forgotten how to pass the ball through midfield. They simply rely on getting the ball up the pitch as quickly as possible and hoping it sticks long enough for the midfield to join them. I think the inclusion of Heskey in the squad (and the decision to start with him) largely supports Beckenbauer's claim that we have reverted to kick and run. Let's call a spade a spade. That's what we do.

Now, we could simply embrace the idea and do what we know best, or we could take offence and try and prove him wrong. As I said above, I would like to see our best players on the pitch. My only concern is that we could be out of the competition before they've learned how to play together. They're all capable of it, they've just had the safety net of a big guy to boot it up to for so long that it's become the easy option.

That said, I would steadfastly stick to the scenario presented in my first paragraph, come what may. If we have to use a big man, we use Crouch as he a)scores goals and b)can play football too. Having Heskey in the squad (never mind the starting line-up) is embarrassing and regressive as far as I'm concerned.
 
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=40632.msg1121715#msg1121715 date=1276759728]

Of course, the main problem with not playing a big man from the start, is that England have forgotten how to pass the ball through midfield. They simply rely on getting the ball up the pitch as quickly as possible and hoping it sticks long enough for the midfield to join them.[/quote]

I think they do this BECAUSE there is a big man up front.
 
I'd play Crouch

I think he deserves his chance at this World Cup and he score goals as well as linking up play.
 
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=40632.msg1121718#msg1121718 date=1276760492]
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=40632.msg1121715#msg1121715 date=1276759728]

Of course, the main problem with not playing a big man from the start, is that England have forgotten how to pass the ball through midfield. They simply rely on getting the ball up the pitch as quickly as possible and hoping it sticks long enough for the midfield to join them.[/quote]

I think they do this BECAUSE there is a big man up front.
[/quote]

Hahaha

Uh...
 
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=40632.msg1121718#msg1121718 date=1276760492]
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=40632.msg1121715#msg1121715 date=1276759728]

Of course, the main problem with not playing a big man from the start, is that England have forgotten how to pass the ball through midfield. They simply rely on getting the ball up the pitch as quickly as possible and hoping it sticks long enough for the midfield to join them.[/quote]

I think they do this BECAUSE there is a big man up front.
[/quote]

I realise that (I thought that was obvious). Which is why I endorse a Gerrard/Rooney or Rooney/Defoe partnership. However, the hoofing is so ingrained at this stage that even when we have seen Rooney up top on his own, the defenders have still frequently bypassed the midfield altogether, despite Rooney having no chance of winning it. If we're going to remove the big man, we have to play through the midfield. Which requires a change of mindset.
 
A big issue is rooney himself. He likes to drop deep into the same areas as gerrard/lampard, if he's gonna stay uptop he should stay up there, otherwise the team lacks a real outlet through the middle.
 
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=40632.msg1121780#msg1121780 date=1276763334]
A big issue is rooney himself. He likes to drop deep into the same areas as gerrard/lampard, if he's gonna stay uptop he should stay up there, otherwise the team lacks a real outlet through the middle.
[/quote]

Indeed. I think there is a responsibility for the wide men to get up and join him quickly too, with the fullbacks supporting behind. Essentially a 4-3-3 in attack/4-5-1 in defence. I also think that Rooney would be less inclined to come deep for the ball if the midifeld were creating openings for him.
 
The hoof and hope methodology that England employ is eerily similar to the tactics Houllier used - 'coincidentally' with Heskey up front.

I'd go Crouch
 
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=40632.msg1121834#msg1121834 date=1276766671]
regardless of who plays up front why doesn't 'fab' play cole (a left footer, right?) on the left?
[/quote]

Joe Cole is right-footed.
 
[quote author=themn link=topic=40632.msg1121838#msg1121838 date=1276767560]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=40632.msg1121834#msg1121834 date=1276766671]
regardless of who plays up front why doesn't 'fab' play cole (a left footer, right?) on the left?
[/quote]

Joe Cole is right-footed.
[/quote]

any reason why he is usually picked on the left?
 
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=40632.msg1121839#msg1121839 date=1276767713]
[quote author=themn link=topic=40632.msg1121838#msg1121838 date=1276767560]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=40632.msg1121834#msg1121834 date=1276766671]
regardless of who plays up front why doesn't 'fab' play cole (a left footer, right?) on the left?
[/quote]

Joe Cole is right-footed.
[/quote]

any reason why he is usually picked on the left?
[/quote]

No better options that are left-footed.

It's not unknown for right-footers to play left side you know.
 
I think if Crouch had started against the USA, England would have won. Crouch scores goals and although he isn't a great header of the ball, he usually gets his head to crosses which sets up chances for others.
 
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=40632.msg1121705#msg1121705 date=1276758472]

Minutes between goals:

With Heskey - 37
With Crouch - 32
With Defoe - 65

[/quote]

Against which opposition? Who came on late against tired legs? etc.

Its an interesting stat but doesn't tell the whole story. For me Heskey isn't a good enough finisher to start, Crouch should be a plan B option and Defoe is a better player than both of them. However id like to see Rooney play right up top like he has this season for United with Gerrard supporting.
 
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=40632.msg1121839#msg1121839 date=1276767713]
[quote author=themn link=topic=40632.msg1121838#msg1121838 date=1276767560]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=40632.msg1121834#msg1121834 date=1276766671]
regardless of who plays up front why doesn't 'fab' play cole (a left footer, right?) on the left?
[/quote]

Joe Cole is right-footed.
[/quote]

any reason why he is usually picked on the left?
[/quote]

It's largely because better players occupy the other posiitions. Of course, that doesn't alter the fact that Joe Cole has been one of our most consistent performers (if there is such a thing where England are concerned) in major competitions playing from the left. It's the best fit for the team.
 
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=40632.msg1121714#msg1121714 date=1276759591]
[quote author=TheBunnyman link=topic=40632.msg1121708#msg1121708 date=1276758793]
What's his record for minutes between goals when played as a lone striker for United?

I think he's fine with Heskey against the weaker teams, and 442 will probably help England to beat Algeria and Slovenia, but as soon as we come up against an Argentina or Germany, we'll need the extra man in midfield. IMO we ought to be playing 451 now, so the players get used to the formation, but clearly that's not going to happen.

[/quote]


Are the wide men upto scratch though? That's the real issue with us packing the midfield, not that I don't rate Cole or Lennon, but ideally in a 5 man midfield, the wide players would be a bit more prolific, given Lampard doesn't look like weighing in with goals in an England shirt anytime soon.
[/quote]

I think Lampard's far more likely to score than Heskey is.
 
I agree that Heskey really shouldn't be in the team however the defence's hoofing is more to do with the lack of a midfielder on the field comfortable with receiving the ball, turning and bringing
/passing the ball forward. Rather like Liverpool last season.

Barry should help with this.
 
[quote author=TheBunnyman link=topic=40632.msg1121873#msg1121873 date=1276770971]
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=40632.msg1121714#msg1121714 date=1276759591]
[quote author=TheBunnyman link=topic=40632.msg1121708#msg1121708 date=1276758793]
What's his record for minutes between goals when played as a lone striker for United?

I think he's fine with Heskey against the weaker teams, and 442 will probably help England to beat Algeria and Slovenia, but as soon as we come up against an Argentina or Germany, we'll need the extra man in midfield. IMO we ought to be playing 451 now, so the players get used to the formation, but clearly that's not going to happen.

[/quote]

Well quite, but I wasn't really advocating the use of heskey, more suggesting the wide men need to get amongst the goals more if rooney plays upfront on his own.


Are the wide men upto scratch though? That's the real issue with us packing the midfield, not that I don't rate Cole or Lennon, but ideally in a 5 man midfield, the wide players would be a bit more prolific, given Lampard doesn't look like weighing in with goals in an England shirt anytime soon.
[/quote]

I think Lampard's far more likely to score than Heskey is.
[/quote]
 
[quote author=Wilko link=topic=40632.msg1121889#msg1121889 date=1276772207]
I agree that Heskey really shouldn't be in the team however the defence's hoofing is more to do with the lack of a midfielder on the field comfortable with receiving the ball, turning and bringing
/passing the ball forward. Rather like Liverpool last season.

Barry should help with this.
[/quote]

Yeah, I think that's why Capello has always been desperate to get him into the side.

He doesn't rate Carrick much at the minute either
 
barry returning should help the balance in midfield, but i still think we should go with rooney up top, gerrard supporting and cole left: i agree with del in that we should play our best players and just hope for the best that they gel in time. in a way we've got nothing to lose because there's no way we'll win this world cup just hoofing it to heskey.
 
lennon---lampard---barry----cole
---------------gerrard-------------
------------rooney-----------------

that's what I'd play.
so gerrard is going to pushed out on the left and then the press will moan when he does fuck all there. john barnes used to get fucked around for england as well.
 
[quote author=Wilko link=topic=40632.msg1121889#msg1121889 date=1276772207]
I agree that Heskey really shouldn't be in the team however the defence's hoofing is more to do with the lack of a midfielder on the field comfortable with receiving the ball, turning and bringing
/passing the ball forward. Rather like Liverpool last season.

Barry should help with this.
[/quote]

About right.
 
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=40632.msg1121715#msg1121715 date=1276759728]
I'm a big fan of playing our best players. I'm also a fan of strikers who score goals. I think the best front 6 we can field is Gerrard, Lampard, Barry, Cole, Lennon, and Rooney. I also see no reason why those players couldn't grow into a formidable combination. If we're struggling to score then we also have the option of removing Barry and adding another (goalscoring) striker (Crouch or Defoe).

Of course, the main problem with not playing a big man from the start, is that England have forgotten how to pass the ball through midfield. They simply rely on getting the ball up the pitch as quickly as possible and hoping it sticks long enough for the midfield to join them. I think the inclusion of Heskey in the squad (and the decision to start with him) largely supports Beckenbauer's claim that we have reverted to kick and run. Let's call a spade a spade. That's what we do.

Now, we could simply embrace the idea and do what we know best, or we could take offence and try and prove him wrong. As I said above, I would like to see our best players on the pitch. My only concern is that we could be out of the competition before they've learned how to play together. They're all capable of it, they've just had the safety net of a big guy to boot it up to for so long that it's become the easy option.

That said, I would steadfastly stick to the scenario presented in my first paragraph, come what may. If we have to use a big man, we use Crouch as he a)scores goals and b)can play football too. Having Heskey in the squad (never mind the starting line-up) is embarrassing and regressive as far as I'm concerned.


[/quote]

I think the group is ideal for us to do this. I don't think we're going to have any trouble going through and I agree with the assesment of our best front 6 which I believe provides us with the best chance of winning. If Cole isn't on the left then I think Gerrard has to be there because I have no confidence in any of our other left side options doing the job.


Barry really is an important component in the team when we play some of the power house nations. Hargreaves 4 years ago against Portugal was a revalation - question as to whether Barry can provide a similar performance.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom