Rafa to Juve link denied

[Rosco]

[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=38644.msg1044679#msg1044679 date=1264683876]
Our squad when Rafa took over was worth roughly £60m-70m.

I think that tells you everything you need to know about the quality of that group of players (ageing and largely useless).

Today it's probably around the £300m mark.


[/quote]

I never understand the relevance of squad values (even when you massively overstate them)

If anything all you're doing is showing that Rafa is underperforming.

 

[Rosco]

[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=38644.msg1044721#msg1044721 date=1264686403]
The only way to measure a squad is to look at the league table.

Nothing else really matters.
[/quote]

Ding Ding Ding

 

[Rosco]

[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=38644.msg1044764#msg1044764 date=1264690674]

The way you talk he inherited Blackpool not Liverpool, and he has been operating on a shoestring.
We finished ahead of United in 2004 and have outspent them since then
We finished ahead of Arsenal in 2006 and 2008 and have massively outspent them since
We finished ahead of Chelsea last year and have spent exactly the same as them in the past 4 years, so what exactly is it that makes you both think we were always behind them and havnt spent the money to catch them up.
Those three teams are now miles out of sight of us despite the fact that we have been better than them at times in the past 5 years and despite spending heavily and despite having a supposed tactical genius in charge, we are now being passed by City which is fine, they are spending very heavily, but they were almost a relegation team when the money came in, we were top 3 and winning honours.

[/quote]

One day all the divs will realise Oncy. Benitez is overrated.

 

[Y1]

When Rafa is gone, if not now it will be end of this season, for whatever reasons, however the circumstances I think LFC will miss him unless a better manager is the replacement.

However I cannot see anyone better with the resources we can afford.

Whoever is willing to come under our present circumstances is coming in with a hiding for nothing. He will be given another 5 years possibly and we will moan another 5 years. Meanwhile, Man City, Chelsea, Arsenal, Man U, Spurs and possibly Aston Villa will become the top six.

We are like a spiraling plane, out of control, flying from one disaster to another. Yup, the outlook is bleak indeed.

 

[Ryan]

[quote author=Rosco link=topic=38644.msg1045237#msg1045237 date=1264731337]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=38644.msg1044764#msg1044764 date=1264690674]

The way you talk he inherited Blackpool not Liverpool, and he has been operating on a shoestring.
We finished ahead of United in 2004 and have outspent them since then
We finished ahead of Arsenal in 2006 and 2008 and have massively outspent them since
We finished ahead of Chelsea last year and have spent exactly the same as them in the past 4 years, so what exactly is it that makes you both think we were always behind them and havnt spent the money to catch them up.
Those three teams are now miles out of sight of us despite the fact that we have been better than them at times in the past 5 years and despite spending heavily and despite having a supposed tactical genius in charge, we are now being passed by City which is fine, they are spending very heavily, but they were almost a relegation team when the money came in, we were top 3 and winning honours.

[/quote]

One day all the divs will realise Oncy. Benitez is overrated.
[/quote]

Why can't the powers that be at Real Madrid and Juventus see that eh?

 

[Dreambeliever]

[quote author=Ryan link=topic=38644.msg1045255#msg1045255 date=1264735081]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=38644.msg1045237#msg1045237 date=1264731337]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=38644.msg1044764#msg1044764 date=1264690674]

The way you talk he inherited Blackpool not Liverpool, and he has been operating on a shoestring.
We finished ahead of United in 2004 and have outspent them since then
We finished ahead of Arsenal in 2006 and 2008 and have massively outspent them since
We finished ahead of Chelsea last year and have spent exactly the same as them in the past 4 years, so what exactly is it that makes you both think we were always behind them and havnt spent the money to catch them up.
Those three teams are now miles out of sight of us despite the fact that we have been better than them at times in the past 5 years and despite spending heavily and despite having a supposed tactical genius in charge, we are now being passed by City which is fine, they are spending very heavily, but they were almost a relegation team when the money came in, we were top 3 and winning honours.

[/quote]

One day all the divs will realise Oncy. Benitez is overrated.
[/quote]

Why can't the powers that be at Real Madrid and Juventus see that eh?
[/quote]

Yes because Madrid have such a great record of picking good managers and Juve are corrupt.

Great example that.

 

[Ryan]

[quote author=Dreambeliever link=topic=38644.msg1045260#msg1045260 date=1264735331]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=38644.msg1045255#msg1045255 date=1264735081]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=38644.msg1045237#msg1045237 date=1264731337]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=38644.msg1044764#msg1044764 date=1264690674]

The way you talk he inherited Blackpool not Liverpool, and he has been operating on a shoestring.
We finished ahead of United in 2004 and have outspent them since then
We finished ahead of Arsenal in 2006 and 2008 and have massively outspent them since
We finished ahead of Chelsea last year and have spent exactly the same as them in the past 4 years, so what exactly is it that makes you both think we were always behind them and havnt spent the money to catch them up.
Those three teams are now miles out of sight of us despite the fact that we have been better than them at times in the past 5 years and despite spending heavily and despite having a supposed tactical genius in charge, we are now being passed by City which is fine, they are spending very heavily, but they were almost a relegation team when the money came in, we were top 3 and winning honours.

[/quote]

One day all the divs will realise Oncy. Benitez is overrated.
[/quote]

Why can't the powers that be at Real Madrid and Juventus see that eh?
[/quote]

Yes because Madrid have such a great record of picking good managers and Juve are corrupt.

Great example that.
[/quote]

You've completely outwitted me again Dreamy.

 

[Y1]

Ryan v Dreamy is like Holmes v Moriarty. Just do not know who is Holmes yet.

 

[darkstarexodus]

[quote author=Y1 link=topic=38644.msg1045267#msg1045267 date=1264736218]
Ryan v Dreamy is like Holmes v Moriarty. Just do not know who is Holmes yet.
[/quote]

It's elementary my dear Y1.

 

[Y1]

[quote author=darkstarexodus link=topic=38644.msg1045269#msg1045269 date=1264736476]
[quote author=Y1 link=topic=38644.msg1045267#msg1045267 date=1264736218]
Ryan v Dreamy is like Holmes v Moriarty. Just do not know who is Holmes yet.
[/quote]

It's elementary my dear Y1.
[/quote]

LOL

I was told this phrase is a myth and does not exist in Conan's book.

 

[darkstarexodus]

[quote author=Y1 link=topic=38644.msg1045272#msg1045272 date=1264736659]
[quote author=darkstarexodus link=topic=38644.msg1045269#msg1045269 date=1264736476]
[quote author=Y1 link=topic=38644.msg1045267#msg1045267 date=1264736218]
Ryan v Dreamy is like Holmes v Moriarty. Just do not know who is Holmes yet.
[/quote]

It's elementary my dear Y1.
[/quote]

LOL

I was told this phrase is a myth and does not exist in Conan's book.
[/quote]

True as far as I know.

 

[Avmenon]

[quote author=Ryan link=topic=38644.msg1045255#msg1045255 date=1264735081]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=38644.msg1045237#msg1045237 date=1264731337]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=38644.msg1044764#msg1044764 date=1264690674]

The way you talk he inherited Blackpool not Liverpool, and he has been operating on a shoestring.
We finished ahead of United in 2004 and have outspent them since then
We finished ahead of Arsenal in 2006 and 2008 and have massively outspent them since
We finished ahead of Chelsea last year and have spent exactly the same as them in the past 4 years, so what exactly is it that makes you both think we were always behind them and havnt spent the money to catch them up.
Those three teams are now miles out of sight of us despite the fact that we have been better than them at times in the past 5 years and despite spending heavily and despite having a supposed tactical genius in charge, we are now being passed by City which is fine, they are spending very heavily, but they were almost a relegation team when the money came in, we were top 3 and winning honours.

[/quote]

One day all the divs will realise Oncy. Benitez is overrated.
[/quote]

Why can't the powers that be at Real Madrid and Juventus see that eh?
[/quote]

Doesn't really matter what Real and Juve think about Rafa if he's shit here,Ryan.

 

[Dreambeliever]

[quote author=Ryan link=topic=38644.msg1045263#msg1045263 date=1264735635]
[quote author=Dreambeliever link=topic=38644.msg1045260#msg1045260 date=1264735331]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=38644.msg1045255#msg1045255 date=1264735081]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=38644.msg1045237#msg1045237 date=1264731337]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=38644.msg1044764#msg1044764 date=1264690674]

The way you talk he inherited Blackpool not Liverpool, and he has been operating on a shoestring.
We finished ahead of United in 2004 and have outspent them since then
We finished ahead of Arsenal in 2006 and 2008 and have massively outspent them since
We finished ahead of Chelsea last year and have spent exactly the same as them in the past 4 years, so what exactly is it that makes you both think we were always behind them and havnt spent the money to catch them up.
Those three teams are now miles out of sight of us despite the fact that we have been better than them at times in the past 5 years and despite spending heavily and despite having a supposed tactical genius in charge, we are now being passed by City which is fine, they are spending very heavily, but they were almost a relegation team when the money came in, we were top 3 and winning honours.

[/quote]

One day all the divs will realise Oncy. Benitez is overrated.
[/quote]

Why can't the powers that be at Real Madrid and Juventus see that eh?
[/quote]

Yes because Madrid have such a great record of picking good managers and Juve are corrupt.

Great example that.
[/quote]

You've completely outwitted me again Dreamy.
[/quote]

Not hard these days when you think Rafa will turns things around and that Lucas is worth a spot in our team.

 

[Portly]

In the "Sherlock Holmes" books by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Holmes sometimes said "Elementary, Watson" and sometimes he said "My dear Watson," but he never put the two of them together.

I think the scripts of the films may have combined them into "Elementary, my dear Watson."

Fact! 8)

 

[Y1]

[quote author=Portly link=topic=38644.msg1045314#msg1045314 date=1264751898]
In the "Sherlock Holmes" books by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Holmes sometimes said "Elementary, Watson" and sometimes he said "My dear Watson," but he never put the two of them together.

I think the scripts of the films may have combined them into "Elementary, my dear Watson."

Fact! 8)
[/quote]

Ah, good to have an authourity on Conan here! Someone as old as him! hahaha

 

[spider-Neil]

eariler this season oncy was one of rafa's staunchest supporters, what happened?

 

[Avmenon]

[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=38644.msg1045322#msg1045322 date=1264753324]
eariler this season oncy was one of rafa's staunchest supporters, what happened?
[/quote

We turned to shit.

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=Avmenon link=topic=38644.msg1045327#msg1045327 date=1264753787]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=38644.msg1045322#msg1045322 date=1264753324]
eariler this season oncy was one of rafa's staunchest supporters, what happened?
[/quote

We turned to shit.
[/quote]


so you offer someone an umbrella when The Lying Rag is shining and take it away when it starts to rain? marvelous.

 

[Avmenon]

[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=38644.msg1045329#msg1045329 date=1264754019]
[quote author=Avmenon link=topic=38644.msg1045327#msg1045327 date=1264753787]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=38644.msg1045322#msg1045322 date=1264753324]
eariler this season oncy was one of rafa's staunchest supporters, what happened?
[/quote

We turned to shit.
[/quote]


so you offer someone an umbrella when The Lying Rag is shining and take it away when it starts to rain? marvelous.
[/quote]


What are we, the Bank of England?

 

[Y1]

[quote author=Avmenon link=topic=38644.msg1045331#msg1045331 date=1264754167]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=38644.msg1045329#msg1045329 date=1264754019]
[quote author=Avmenon link=topic=38644.msg1045327#msg1045327 date=1264753787]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=38644.msg1045322#msg1045322 date=1264753324]
eariler this season oncy was one of rafa's staunchest supporters, what happened?
[/quote

We turned to shit.
[/quote]


so you offer someone an umbrella when The Lying Rag is shining and take it away when it starts to rain? marvelous.
[/quote]


What are we, the Bank of England?


[/quote]

LOL 🙂

 

[spider-Neil]

I'm still a supporter of rafa but if I'm honest if he were sacked tomorrow I don't think I'd be 'THAT' upset about it.
I feel a little sorry for rafa because of the way things panned out, for instance the striker situation, you have torres who is hotter than hot and excells in the lone striker role with gerrard in the hole , a very prolific partnership so half decent strikers here didn't want to waste time on the bench and the strikers not here were afraid of being sideline in favor of the first choice. that was situation and then torres' injuries become more frequent. so how do you approach that? buy people content to sit on the bench? keep people who want more time on the pitch against their will.

its easy to look at the situation with 20/20 hindesight but crouch (as an example) was pissed off at being the odd one out with torres/gerrard scoring goals for fun. all of rafa's choices seems for the most part vindicated because we came within a whisker of winning the league. we did that threadbare squad unfortunately that threadbare squad has become increasingly injury prone.

rafa has spent on average 20m a season, pad out the squad with that money and people will say 'quality not quanity' buy quality (like johnson) it leaves you open to an injury crisis because there are fewer squad members.
you get what you pay for and I think rafa has delivered exactly what the club investment warrented - CL qualification
who have spent more money that liverpool in the time rafa has been there? manu and chelsea. who have won the league in the 5 years since rafa has been here? manu and chelsea.
5 years rafa has been here and in that time he has qualified for the CL every season and got to knockout stages (with the exception of this year) PLUS he has won silverware.

rafa hasn't worked on a shoestring I wouldn't try and argue that but the people who has spent more have won the league that is fact, therefore we have recieced exactly what our investment deserved - CL quaification.
now if arsenal win the league then people can point to arsenal and change the arguement but they haven't and as of yet arsenal have won fuck all since rafa has been at liverpool.

I've said my peace I'll leave it at that

 

[keniget]

The thing about Wenger is that you can always see what he was striving to build at Arsenal. There has always been a rather identifiable method to his madness. If you look at Liverpool at the moment, it's hard to say the same. We have a patched up squad of players that don't play as a team unless our top stars are all fit and in the side - that's not good enough.

 

[manwithnoname]

[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=38644.msg1045322#msg1045322 date=1264753324]
eariler this season oncy was one of rafa's staunchest supporters, what happened?
[/quote]

Oncey is indeed 6CM's Master Of Vacillation, but I don't really think it is unreasonable to suggest that we might need a change of manager after the unholy debcale of this season and his recent transfer disasters.

I was glad Benitez got a new contract last season. It was the right thing to do at the time. But I'm afraid the "perfect storm" of Lucas, Drossena, Keane, Aquilani, injuries, loss of form and the most wretched season in his tenure has created a situation that I think has only one ending: the sack.

He has too many fundamental flaws, and any manager who thinks that a CM partnership of Lucas and Mascherano is good enough to win trophies is mental.

So there you go. Oncey is wthin his rights to flip-flop because Benitez is actually a bit of a mental.

 

[Richey]

I agree Keni. And it was the same with Ferguson when he went to United. I know people are very fond of throwing that rather flimsy argument about how long it took him and using it to defend Benitez but he was building his team year on year.
Benitez seems to just buy players, realise they are shit and exchange them for other shit players. That's no way to carry on is it?

He has now also got to the stage, as anyone in any managerial position who is under pressure does, of playing it safe. Playing ultra defensively against teams like Stoke and Wolves. A draw won't get him the sack right?

We need a change.

 

[the_khl]

[quote author=keniget link=topic=38644.msg1045347#msg1045347 date=1264756235]
The thing about Wenger is that you can always see what he was striving to build at Arsenal. There has always been a rather identifiable method to his madness. If you look at Liverpool at the moment, it's hard to say the same. We have a patched up squad of players that don't play as a team unless our top stars are all fit and in the side - that's not good enough.
[/quote]
I'm quite sure though that if you ask any Arsenal-supporter of today they'd be less excited by the 'building-thingy' compared to winning actual trophies.

Don't get me wrong I reckon Wenger has done and is doing a great job but it's obvious he's got his own demons to battle so to speak.

Wenger is possibly the most stubborn manager outthere and when things aren't going to well - and this Season could very well end up in another big fat MEH for the Gunners faithfuls - he almost seems reluctant to change even the most obvious of weak links.

Denilson is Wengers very own Lucas in that department. The ammount of criticism that comes his way is abysmal really as I don't think he's all bad but it's obvious he stuggles big time in their central defensive midfield without the likes of Song and Diaby besides him. Both players mind who are extremely good on their day but not anywhere near Mashers standards over the course of a Season.

Fact is, ever since Vieira left Arsenal's struggled in that department - it's been five years now and counting.

Anyways, I personally believe Rafa has a plan and a good one too. I'm one of those who's not seeing last Seasons great run as a fluke and I hope we are soon back to those ways. High tempo, high pressure and free-flowing attacking-minded football all over the pitch. It's obvious though, Rafa can't do it all by himself he needs his starplayers to start delivering the goods as well. From Carra to Agger to Johnson to Aquilani to Gerrard and Torres.

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=Brendan link=topic=38644.msg1045348#msg1045348 date=1264756777]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=38644.msg1045322#msg1045322 date=1264753324]
eariler this season oncy was one of rafa's staunchest supporters, what happened?
[/quote]

Oncey is indeed 6CM's Master Of Vacillation, but I don't really think it is unreasonable to suggest that we might need a change of manager after the unholy debcale of this season and his recent transfer disasters.

I was glad Benitez got a new contract last season. It was the right thing to do at the time. But I'm afraid the "perfect storm" of Lucas, Drossena, Keane, Aquilani, injuries, loss of form and the most wretched season in his tenure has created a situation that I think has only one ending: the sack.

He has too many fundamental flaws, and any manager who thinks that a CM partnership of Lucas and Mascherano is good enough to win trophies is mental.

So there you go. Oncey is wthin his rights to flip-flop because Benitez is actually a bit of a mental.
[/quote]

well, hard to argue with that. its amazing we've gone from our highest heights (in the league) to (maybe) our lowest low under rafa in the space of months with the only big change being alonso's sale.

 

[Oncy]

[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=38644.msg1045322#msg1045322 date=1264753324]
eariler this season oncy was one of rafa's staunchest supporters, what happened?
[/quote]Firstly I don't think I've EVER been a Rafa supporter. In fact I believe I've used the word hate HATE! To describe how I feel about him. Earlier this season I felt he was getting totally unfair stick given the injuries and bad luck. That said I believed in the team and their ability to win the league. I still do, our team is as good as anyones, and should be challenging for the league. It's no longer bad luck that's costing us it's straight up bad management. We are looking at our teams (us! Some mongs off the net) and KNOWING we won't win! With 250m worth of players, we KNOW we won't beat fucking Stoke!
Bad luck that Torres is injured, rank bad management that we can't cope without him.
I curse myself that Rafa has managed to fool me into thinking he was learning and willing to adapt. 4 years ago I knew he'd never win the league, and I'm an idiot and a fool for allowing myself to believe even for fragments of time that he wasn't a lucky chancer. I will never be fooled again.
Rafa out. Striker in. Good manager. Title.

 

[Jack D Rips]

[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=38644.msg1045387#msg1045387 date=1264763472]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=38644.msg1045322#msg1045322 date=1264753324]
eariler this season oncy was one of rafa's staunchest supporters, what happened?
[/quote]Firstly I don't think I've EVER been a Rafa supporter. In fact I believe I've used the word hate HATE! To describe how I feel about him. Earlier this season I felt he was getting totally unfair stick given the injuries and bad luck. That said I believed in the team and their ability to win the league. I still do, our team is as good as anyones, and should be challenging for the league. It's no longer bad luck that's costing us it's straight up bad management. We are looking at our teams (us! Some mongs off the net) and KNOWING we won't win! With 250m worth of players, we KNOW we won't beat fucking Stoke!
Bad luck that Torres is injured, rank bad management that we can't cope without him.
I curse myself that Rafa has managed to fool me into thinking he was learning and willing to adapt. 4 years ago I knew he'd never win the league, and I'm an idiot and a fool for allowing myself to believe even for fragments of time that he wasn't a lucky chancer. I will never be fooled again.
Rafa out. Striker in. Good manager. Title.
[/quote]

Totally agree with that. Its exactly how I feel. I look at our squad man for man and wonder why Im in fear when we play Stoke, Wolves, Hull, Bolton.

Blame anything you like . Injuries. Poor form. At the end of the days its bad management that has us in this situation.

Sorry Rafa but its time to go.

 

[themn]

[quote author=Y1 link=topic=38644.msg1045223#msg1045223 date=1264728649]
[quote author=themn link=topic=38644.msg1045028#msg1045028 date=1264714085]
*blinks*
[/quote]

Yep, we are on the brink,

Bring the blinking bling!
[/quote]

More lol !

 

[Jürgen4PM]

[quote author=Rosco link=topic=38644.msg1045237#msg1045237 date=1264731337]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=38644.msg1044764#msg1044764 date=1264690674]

The way you talk he inherited Blackpool not Liverpool, and he has been operating on a shoestring.
We finished ahead of United in 2004 and have outspent them since then
We finished ahead of Arsenal in 2006 and 2008 and have massively outspent them since
We finished ahead of Chelsea last year and have spent exactly the same as them in the past 4 years, so what exactly is it that makes you both think we were always behind them and havnt spent the money to catch them up.
Those three teams are now miles out of sight of us despite the fact that we have been better than them at times in the past 5 years and despite spending heavily and despite having a supposed tactical genius in charge, we are now being passed by City which is fine, they are spending very heavily, but they were almost a relegation team when the money came in, we were top 3 and winning honours.

[/quote]

One day all the divs will realise Oncy. Benitez is overrated.
[/quote]


This is what he's won since taking over at Valencia 9 years ago:


2x La Liga titles
1 Uefa Cup
1 Uefa Super Cup
1 FA Cup
1 Champions League trophy
1 FA Community Shield
2x Uefa manager of the year awards


Oh, and two of the biggest teams in Europe would love to have his services.

Well personally i think he's a very good manager. Only a "div" would disagree with this Rosco.