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Poll Poll: Which is more important come the 18th May ??

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If you only had a choice between the two, what would you choose ?...

  • Europa League Trophy

    Votes: 31 75.6%

  • Champions League Qualification.

    Votes: 10 24.4%
  • Total voters
    41
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No, it isn't. As Gerry said in his post, the point is not qualifying for the Champions League. The point is doing well enough in the league to challenge for the title, and doing so regularly. Finishing in the CL spots is a measure of that, not an end in itself. Winning the Europa League or any of the domestic cups isn't. We've won our fair share of those in the last quarter of a century and it's got us nowhere near where we want to be.
 
Judge Jules said:
The bolded bit is absolutely spot on, so how can it be "all about winning cups"?
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Huh? It is all about winning trophies, and big nights. I don't remember anything specific from the times we have qualified for the CL, other than the times we actually won it, or got to a final, it certainly didn't lead to us being more likely to win the league.

If/when we next win the league, it won't be in anyway related to the amount of times we've qualified for the CL in the past. It's not a natural progression, it's not that simple, and I can't think of a single example of a club going onto sustained success(and by that I mean winning the league) purely down to qualifying for the CL.

CL qualification is a consequence of winning the league, not a means to achieving it.

The main argument as to why it might be is money. Lack of money is not the reason we haven't won the league, it's a lack of getting value for money.
 
Judge Jules said:
No, it isn't. As Gerry said in his post, the point is not qualifying for the Champions League. The point is doing well enough in the league to challenge for the title, and doing so regularly. Finishing in the CL spots is a measure of that, not an end in itself. Winning the Europa League or any of the domestic cups isn't. We've won our fair share of those in the last quarter of a century and it's got us nowhere near where we want to be.
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One of the things I want is to be in a bar getting pissed, then rolling into a stadium to watch the reds pick up another trophy, before leaving to go to another bar and relive the glory with my mates. So its got me close to part of where I want to be 🙂
 
Gerry_A_Trick said:
Huh? It is all about winning trophies, and big nights. I don't remember anything specific from the times we have qualified for the CL, other than the times we actually won it, or got to a final, it certainly didn't lead to us being more likely to win the league.

If/when we next win the league, it won't be in anyway related to the amount of times we've qualified for the CL in the past. It's not a natural progression, it's not that simple, and I can't think of a single example of a club going onto sustained success(and by that I mean winning the league) purely down to qualifying for the CL.

CL qualification is a consequence of winning the league, not a means to achieving it.

The main argument as to why it might be is money. Lack of money is not the reason we haven't won the league, it's a lack of getting value for money.
Click to expand...

Your own words were "Winning the league leads to qualifying for the CL, and long-term success". Going on after that to a simple assertion that "it's all about winning cups" doesn't add up. Winning cups isn't relevant to long term success. As against that, try achieving such success without getting into the top four on a regular basis, and see how far you get.
 
Judge Jules said:
No, it isn't. As Gerry said in his post, the point is not qualifying for the Champions League. The point is doing well enough in the league to challenge for the title, and doing so regularly. Finishing in the CL spots is a measure of that, not an end in itself. Winning the Europa League or any of the domestic cups isn't. We've won our fair share of those in the last quarter of a century and it's got us nowhere near where we want to be.
Click to expand...
That's a completely different question, finishing fourth doesn't mean you're challenging for anything.
 
tombrown said:
One of the things I want is to be in a bar getting pissed, then rolling into a stadium to watch the reds pick up another trophy, before leaving to go to another bar and relive the glory with my mates. So its got me close to part of where I want to be 🙂
Click to expand...

That kind of short-termism may well be part of the reason why we've slipped off the top rank since the early 90s. It's understandable, but it shouldn't be enough for Liverpool FC or its fans IMHO.
 
Judge Jules said:
No, it isn't. As Gerry said in his post, the point is not qualifying for the Champions League. The point is doing well enough in the league to challenge for the title, and doing so regularly. Finishing in the CL spots is a measure of that, not an end in itself. Winning the Europa League or any of the domestic cups isn't. We've won our fair share of those in the last quarter of a century and it's got us nowhere near where we want to be.
Click to expand...

Ok, but us qualifying this time would be via default. It wouldn't automatically guarantee anything either, we're 8th now, so qualifying by the back door doesn't mean we're on the road to sustained qualification. Winning something puts our name back on the map, makes European players take notice. Etc.
 
mark1975 said:
Ok, but us qualifying this time would be via default. It wouldn't automatically guarantee anything either, we're 8th now, so qualifying by the back door doesn't mean we're on the road to sustained qualification. Winning something puts our name back on the map, makes European players take notice. Etc.
Click to expand...

This time by itself, no, but we need to establish a pattern of doing it, and we can't very well do that without starting somewhere.

I wish I could believe that winning the EL would make that kind of difference with players, but I'm afraid I don't. I've never once seen any player, let alone a marquee player, quote it as a reason for joining a club.
 
Judge Jules said:
Finishing in the top four on a regular basis does.
Click to expand...
Again, when was the last time Arsenal challenged for the league? If your argument was I'd rather seriously challenge for the league than win the Europa League (a serious challenge is us in 2014 or 2009) it would make sense, but it's not, being fourth isn't challenging for the league. Despite having finished outside the top four more than not over the last 10 years whilst Arsenal have finished inside every time, we've seriously challenge for the league twice, have Arsenal had even one serious challenge in that time?
 
I guess, if I put it seriously, I dont see winning a trophy as a step on a journey, I see it as the culmination of a journey itself & enjoy it for what it is. That doesn't mean we shouldn't be aiming for more significant journeys like the league, and if this less significant journey helps that longer term objective then great. But dont suck the joy out of winning a trophy by analyzing where it does or doesn't take us.

In retrospect some of the joy of the treble season (or quadruple if you include the Arsenal trophy) was tarnished as it was hailed as a step on the way to winning the league, and when that didn't happen, the season becomes somewhat tarnished in retrospect, rather than being remembered as the very exciting & successful season that it was in its own right.
 
It's the package though JJ. Klopp has a record of winning, so us adding the Europa this season would signify we're on the right road. I think CL qualification was more crucial before, when we had to convince potential signings we were capable, is that really as important as a successful manager coming here and winning something straight away? I just feel CL qual will come anyway, because of our silverware drought, winning something is primary.
 
Mystic said:
Again, when was the last time Arsenal challenged for the league? If your argument was I'd rather seriously challenge for the league than win the Europa League (a serious challenge is us in 2014 or 2009) it would make sense, but it's not, being fourth isn't challenging for the league. Despite having finished outside the top four more than not over the last 10 years whilst Arsenal have finished inside every time, we've seriously challenge for the league twice, have Arsenal had even one serious challenge in that time?
Click to expand...

They've started plenty. The fact that they've kept wimping out after New Year doesn't change the fact that they've put themselves in the frame every single year, whereas we've only managed it a couple of times. I know which base I'd sooner start from.
 
mark1975 said:
It's the package though JJ. Klopp has a record of winning, so us adding the Europa this season would signify we're on the right road. I think CL qualification was more crucial before, when we had to convince potential signings we were capable, is that really as important as a successful manager coming here and winning something straight away? I just feel CL qual will come anyway, because of our silverware drought, winning something is primary.
Click to expand...

That's by far the best argument I've seen for the point of view you represent, mark. I guess I'm more inclined to play the percentages and do what I think will give us the best chance of getting back to the top table long-term.
 
Winning a tournament is the most important thing in my mind, but you surely get that regardless of the prize right?

I get the gist of the question, but the scenario makes no sense. If the choice is between winning the final and hoisting a trophy, or winning it and hoisting a certificate of CL qualification, it's pretty obvious which one we would take.

Maybe the question should be: if CL qualification went to the runner up of the EL only, would you rather we won or lost the final?

In that case, I'll take the win please.
 
Both are important, as GED showed us in 2001, last time we won the UEFA CUP.

Like Rafa's tenure, that year looks like such a massive achievement at this point.
 
Fabio said:
I thought this club was about winning trophies, not qualifying for them?

Anyone who says they'd rather get 4th than win a trophy should go support arsenal
Click to expand...

I thought this club was about winning the big trophies. Anyone who would rather win a second-rank cup than do what's needed to get back to the top of the game and stay there should go support Wigan.
 
Judge Jules said:
I thought this club was about winning the big trophies. Anyone who would rather win a second-rank cup than do what's needed to get back to the top of the game and stay there should go support Wigan.
Click to expand...
I'd like to win big trophies

But we can't. Because we struggle to compete with sides who are full of money. The amount of players we missed out on (allegedly) when we were a consistent top 4 team, doesn't seem any better or worse than the players were missing out on now

In the future we're not going to be remembered for finishing top 4 and nearly winning trophies. We'll be remembered for being one of the most decorated sides.

Give me a trophy every season, league cup or better, rather than annually finishing top 4 and doing nothing
 
Gerry_A_Trick said:
it certainly didn't lead to us being more likely to win the league.
Click to expand...

Almost certainly untrue.

The strong performances in and consistent qualifications for the CL under Benitez clearly helped us build the very strong squad that nearly won the league in 2009.

People talk such rubbish about this subject. No-one thinks that getting in the CL automatically means success, and yet most of the arguments against prioritising it are leveled at such a claim. The point is to give us the best chance, ceteris paribus.
 
Fabio said:
I'd like to win big trophies

But we can't. Because we struggle to compete with sides who are full of money. The amount of players we missed out on (allegedly) when we were a consistent top 4 team, doesn't seem any better or worse than the players were missing out on now

In the future we're not going to be remembered for finishing top 4 and nearly winning trophies. We'll be remembered for being one of the most decorated sides.

Give me a trophy every season, league cup or better, rather than annually finishing top 4 and doing nothing
Click to expand...

I respect your view but I absolutely disagree. It'll be a cold day in Hell before I give up on our future prospects like that.
 
Judge Jules said:
I respect your view but I absolutely disagree. It'll be a cold day in Hell before I give up on our future prospects like that.
Click to expand...
Fair enough. I just don't see it as giving up on our future, more adding to our history
 
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