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no ryan's chalk board again I see...

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spider-Neil

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okay, its a tradition

so, brum away in an absolutely must game. brum are no mugs with none of the top 4 (manu, chelsea, arse and man city) taking all three points. it was always going to be a tough game.
rafa actually picked quite an attacking team; gerrard, yossi, maxi, kuyt and torres all in the same side.
the game started ridiculously slowly with brum content not to dictate the pace of the game despite being the home team, liverpool content to just prod and prob without exerting themselves which must have exasperated all the fans as 3 points were an absolute must.

the best chance of the half fell to maxi with an inch perfect cross to maxi from torres who met the cross brilliant and whether the keeper brilliantly pushed the shot onto the bar is unknown.
half time - time running out

second half and gerrard scored an absolute peach of a goal with an odd assist from johnson, definately looked like a cross, and then defensive frailties that has plagued liverpool all season long reared its ugly head.

It's difficult to know who to blame, for a start the shot shouldn't have been allowed to come in and almost to a man the entire back line was attracted to the crosser like moths to a flame, absloutely comical school boy errors. then you have the goal scorer ghosting into the box completely unmarked, seriously what the fuck is going on there? who is marking whom?

one is bad enough but the exact same thing happened again with bowyer ghosting into the box unmarked, what is the POINT of having a holding midfielder if runs from deep are unchecked? answers on a postcard please.

and then THE turning point of the match, rafa choosing to withdraw torres (later claiming torres was 'tired) look, let's not argue about torres being tired he clearly was, nando had done pretty much fuck all all game (except a brilliant cross) torres WAS tired the question is should a tired torres have remained on the pitch?

there are two examples that spring to mind; benfica away and villa away

villa away torres did absolutely nothing all game and then BANG one chance one goal, he is a special player and if you wanted chances to fall to any player (in the LEAGUE never mind liverpool) it would be nando. and you have the benfica game when he missed a glorious chance to win the game (you could also through in the two sitters at manu) he IS human but you would THINK he would have finished one of the glut of chances that fell to torres.

the thing is why did all the chances 'suddenly' start materialising the moment torres left the field
a number of reasons

1) brum were simply tired

2) with the likes of babel on the pitch brum were defending deeper to counter that pace

3) ngog was get to positions nando couldn't because he was tired or double teamed

4) johnson pushed up and was cutting them open time and time again

the truth is I think the chances would still have happened had torres remained on the pitch. torres was the first sub, yossi and kuyt could and maybe SHOULD have left the field before him.

it should be noted that rafa could genuinly have been protecting the player, there are five games to go and tiredness coupled with meaty challenges and who knows what might have happened. I personally would have left torres on the pitch but I can kinda see why rafa did it.

there is also the last chance of silverware on thursday that might have playing on rafa's mind as well.

people are ripping into ngog I actually thought he did quite well without being clinical, he got himself in front of the defender to get the header off, was in the right place to shot wide and brought down gerrard's cross brilliantly to only fluff his lines. but he PUT himself in the position to miss. he could easily have chosen to hide, being round booed when he came on (by the brum fans in case people thought our own fans was booing the decision to take torres off) but he stood up. its a lot of pressure for a 21 year old (birthday april 1st ha ha TRU FAX!) and he shouldn't be put in that position there should be more expensive to call on but the situation is what it is and he was a whisker away from making rafa's decision decision genius as it is with the misses rafa's decision instead looks like madness.

well onwards and upwars but I feel 4th has well and truly gone and only a horrible end of season run to spurs and man city will let us in and that IF we win our games, but stranger things have happended
 
Ryan does this type of post much, much better. I just don't think he has been online, I haven't seen him on here anyway.
 
[quote author=Stu link=topic=39669.msg1082629#msg1082629 date=1270502870]
Ryan does this type of post much, much better. I just don't think he has been online, I haven't seen him on here anyway.
[/quote]

that's just mavelous, no comment on my post just that ryan does it better. nice 🙂
 
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=39669.msg1082633#msg1082633 date=1270503267]
[quote author=Stu link=topic=39669.msg1082629#msg1082629 date=1270502870]
Ryan does this type of post much, much better. I just don't think he has been online, I haven't seen him on here anyway.
[/quote]

that's just mavelous, no comment on my post just that ryan does it better. nice 🙂
[/quote]

To be fair, Brendan would have replied to Stu with a much wittier and vitriolic retort. Where is he anyway?
 
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=39669.msg1082633#msg1082633 date=1270503267]
[quote author=Stu link=topic=39669.msg1082629#msg1082629 date=1270502870]
Ryan does this type of post much, much better. I just don't think he has been online, I haven't seen him on here anyway.
[/quote]

that's just mavelous, no comment on my post just that ryan does it better. nice 🙂
[/quote]

In fairness, over half of it was just describing what happened, rather than analysing it.

*pats spidey on head*
 
[quote author=Stu link=topic=39669.msg1082637#msg1082637 date=1270503987]
Sorry Neil, I can recognise the amount of effort that went into it, so well done on that score.
[/quote]

naw, no worries man, doing that stuff is more for me than for anyone else to get my frustrations out there 🙂
 
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=39669.msg1082638#msg1082638 date=1270504264]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=39669.msg1082633#msg1082633 date=1270503267]
[quote author=Stu link=topic=39669.msg1082629#msg1082629 date=1270502870]
Ryan does this type of post much, much better. I just don't think he has been online, I haven't seen him on here anyway.
[/quote]

that's just mavelous, no comment on my post just that ryan does it better. nice 🙂
[/quote]

In fairness, over half of it was just describing what happened, rather than analysing it.

*pats spidey on head*
[/quote]

I thought the only thing in the game worth analysing was the torres sub and I did that, probably poorly but there you go.
 
A good post Neil, so don't let anyone tell you otherwise. Ryan has better punctuation though, which I appreciate.
 
[quote author=IGotALuvlyBunchOfCoconuts link=topic=39669.msg1082644#msg1082644 date=1270508347]
Capitals at the start of each sentence wouldn't hurt.
[/quote]

and change the habits of a life time?
 
Thanks Spidey, been away all weekend so no net access.

Well...

I don't think we played great, but we did dominate in terms of chances created and pressure applied. I'd have preferred to see a different team from the start, which might have helped take the game too them a bit earlier, but hey ho. The longer the game wore on, the less likely we looked like getting a breakthrough; few reasons for that for me...

1 - We attack in a triangle when Benayoun and Insua play wide left. You may as well eliminate one third of the pitch when they're on it, becasue we never even go near the right-back's part of the ground. Very easy to defend against that, as it effectively means that the brum (or any team really) defence can afford to push over and push us back. Dann and Johnson played quite a high line against Torres, which most teams are obviously scared to do, but they got away with it due to us doing all our best work and best interplay and passing 40 yards frrom goal. Birmingham's pitch is narrow enough as it is, trying to create openings in a space even more fucking narrow because our shape was lopsided is nigh on impossible. Our quick, one-touch passing had to be Barcelona-esque to get a chance engineered - Lucas, Maxi, Dirk and Benayoun aren't Xavi, Messi or Iniesta though.

2 - The lack of a quality attacking left-back kills us. I hate Benayoun on the left-wing, as I'm sure a lot of others do, but his position becomes less execrable if he's got somebody running round and past him from left-back for 90 minutes. He doesn't. Of course Benayoun cuts inside for 90 minutes, but then do does Nani, Arshavin, Cole, Modric, etc etc - The shape of Spurs, Arsenal, Chelsea, and United stays relatively stretched and in position because they've got a powerful attacking left-back to compensate. We've just got a lopsided shape. We need a Glenjo at left-back. Benayoun picks it up and beelines for the opposition's left back, not great normally, but a fucking disaster terminally if you don't have someone going outside you from left-back.

3 - Torres stank. Let's ignore the subsitition for a second, and focus on his performance. It was fucking putrid. Do you see Rooney giving up and not bothering? Drogba? What he might be able to do in the 89th minute is a fucking dreamy hypothetical. Let's focus on what he actually did - zero. Worse than zero for me. Not good enough, and I could go on.

The performances of Glenjo, Gerrard, Maxi and Kuyt to an extent were pleasing. Reina was imperious again as well. I like Maxi, but if he's doing great work too far out from goal. Taking a nice touch, retaining possession and freeing others into space works when you're Xavi and doing it 15 yards from goal, when Maxi does it, we've still got a wall of four or five defenders to get past. Then when he gets a chance, it's got to go in. Unfortunate on one or two occassions, bad finishing on the others. He should have scored.

Ditto N'Gog, who regardless of the 'situation' played quite well. To a point. You can run, hold the ball up, and create chances all day David, but it's got to hit the back of the net at some stage.

Which sums us up away from home - not enough goals. Chelsea, United and Arsenal have all failed to beat Birmingham at St Andrews, we had a great chance to. Chances were there, but too few taken. A decent Birmingham side tired visibly (especially in the midfield when ageing players become markedly sloppy as the game wore on) and if you want 4th place or God-forbid anything higher then you've got to beat teams like that. Again an over-reliance on Gerrard, again a 1-1 draw.

Pah.
 
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=39669.msg1082657#msg1082657 date=1270510750]
[quote author=IGotALuvlyBunchOfCoconuts link=topic=39669.msg1082644#msg1082644 date=1270508347]
Capitals at the start of each sentence wouldn't hurt.
[/quote]

and change the habits of a life time?
[/quote]

Change.
 
one thing I'll add, something gary gillespie touched on is the fullbacks would go down the wing check inside and then cross, every once in a while it would be good if they took the ball to the byline and pulled it back to players waiting in the penalty box. we definately should be doing this if the opposition defenders are defending our crosses with ease all game long.
 
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=39669.msg1082666#msg1082666 date=1270511857]
one thing I'll add, something gary gillespie touched on is the fullbacks would go down the wing check inside and then cross, every once in a while it would be good if they took the ball to the byline and pulled it back to players waiting in the penalty box. we definately should be doing this if the opposition defenders are defending our crosses with ease all game long.
[/quote]

Glenjo was forced inside for the most part, hence not being able to get to the byline.
 
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=39669.msg1082672#msg1082672 date=1270512060]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=39669.msg1082666#msg1082666 date=1270511857]
one thing I'll add, something gary gillespie touched on is the fullbacks would go down the wing check inside and then cross, every once in a while it would be good if they took the ball to the byline and pulled it back to players waiting in the penalty box. we definately should be doing this if the opposition defenders are defending our crosses with ease all game long.
[/quote]

Glenjo was forced inside for the most part, hence not being able to get to the byline.
[/quote]

you could apply it to this game but I mean in general to be honest, just to mix things up.
for instance I really hope babel is working on his left foot because he has the pace to do this.
 
Weird how neither of you has blamed the manager for our ridiculously over-cautious approach to the game. Who else do you think it's down to?
 
[quote author=TheBunnyman link=topic=39669.msg1082784#msg1082784 date=1270537369]
Weird how neither of you has blamed the manager for our ridiculously over-cautious approach to the game. Who else do you think it's down to?

[/quote]

Erm, not sure if that's aimed at me?

I said in my post that I'd have preferred a different team selection if it is. Don't think it was that cautious either; Kuyt, Maxi, Benayoun, Gerrard and Torres are all attacking players. His substitutions were attacking ones too.

We just didn't convert our chances.
 
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=39669.msg1082786#msg1082786 date=1270537804]
[quote author=TheBunnyman link=topic=39669.msg1082784#msg1082784 date=1270537369]
Weird how neither of you has blamed the manager for our ridiculously over-cautious approach to the game. Who else do you think it's down to?

[/quote]

Erm, not sure if that's aimed at me?

I said in my post that I'd have preferred a different team selection if it is. Don't think it was that cautious either; Kuyt, Maxi, Benayoun, Gerrard and Torres are all attacking players. His substitutions were attacking ones too.

We just didn't convert our chances.
[/quote]

It was aimed at you and spidey, Ryan. The selection on paper may have been 'relatively' attacking, but our approach in the first half clearly was anything but. We looked like we were happy with 'controlling the game' and keeping a clean sheet, and only showed any real attacking intent in the last 20 mins, when we created lots of chances but unfortunately had taken off our best striker.

It was, in the circumstances, ludicrously over-cautious, but then that is Rafa's speciality.
 
[quote author=TheBunnyman link=topic=39669.msg1082784#msg1082784 date=1270537369]
Weird how neither of you has blamed the manager for our ridiculously over-cautious approach to the game. Who else do you think it's down to?

[/quote]

I mentioned it. the over cautious start could have been down to grueling 90 mins away to benfica but I doubt it, rafa seems to want his teams to start slowly in the first half and turn up the heat in the second half unless of course we HAVE to go for it, like if we conceed first.
 
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=39669.msg1082794#msg1082794 date=1270538483]
[quote author=TheBunnyman link=topic=39669.msg1082784#msg1082784 date=1270537369]
Weird how neither of you has blamed the manager for our ridiculously over-cautious approach to the game. Who else do you think it's down to?

[/quote]

I mentioned it. the over cautious start could have been down to grueling 90 mins away to benfica but I doubt it, rafa seems to want his teams to start slowly in the first half and turn up the heat in the second half unless of course we HAVE to go for it, like if we conceed first.
[/quote]

And yet you consistently defend him. Why is that?
 
[quote author=TheBunnyman link=topic=39669.msg1082792#msg1082792 date=1270538412]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=39669.msg1082786#msg1082786 date=1270537804]
[quote author=TheBunnyman link=topic=39669.msg1082784#msg1082784 date=1270537369]
Weird how neither of you has blamed the manager for our ridiculously over-cautious approach to the game. Who else do you think it's down to?

[/quote]

Erm, not sure if that's aimed at me?

I said in my post that I'd have preferred a different team selection if it is. Don't think it was that cautious either; Kuyt, Maxi, Benayoun, Gerrard and Torres are all attacking players. His substitutions were attacking ones too.

We just didn't convert our chances.
[/quote]

It was aimed at you and spidey, Ryan. The selection on paper may have been 'relatively' attacking, but our approach in the first half clearly was anything but. We looked like we were happy with 'controlling the game' and keeping a clean sheet, and only showed any real attacking intent in the last 20 mins, when we created lots of chances but unfortunately had taken off our best striker.

It was, in the circumstances, ludicrously over-cautious, but then that is Rafa's speciality.

[/quote]

Well, I'd have started with Babel instead of Yossi. If that had been the case, we couldn't really have been more attacking. Aquilani supposedly wasn't fit, so what do you want him to do, dream up attacking players?

He had, bar Babel, his most available attacking team out there.
 
[quote author=TheBunnyman link=topic=39669.msg1082796#msg1082796 date=1270538561]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=39669.msg1082794#msg1082794 date=1270538483]
[quote author=TheBunnyman link=topic=39669.msg1082784#msg1082784 date=1270537369]
Weird how neither of you has blamed the manager for our ridiculously over-cautious approach to the game. Who else do you think it's down to?

[/quote]

I mentioned it. the over cautious start could have been down to grueling 90 mins away to benfica but I doubt it, rafa seems to want his teams to start slowly in the first half and turn up the heat in the second half unless of course we HAVE to go for it, like if we conceed first.
[/quote]

And yet you consistently defend him. Why is that?

[/quote]

there are a number of reasons I defend rafa, lots of small items that add up to wanting him to stay beyond the season to see if this season is a blip or a trend. obviously if this form continued next season I'd want rid.

its the exact same way I felt when gh finished outside of the top 4 for the first time, it was season on season progression I wanted to see if it was a blip or a trend. gh actually managed to get the CL place again but it was clear his time was up, I don't feel that with rafa, yet.
 
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=39669.msg1082800#msg1082800 date=1270538905]
[quote author=TheBunnyman link=topic=39669.msg1082792#msg1082792 date=1270538412]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=39669.msg1082786#msg1082786 date=1270537804]
[quote author=TheBunnyman link=topic=39669.msg1082784#msg1082784 date=1270537369]
Weird how neither of you has blamed the manager for our ridiculously over-cautious approach to the game. Who else do you think it's down to?

[/quote]

Erm, not sure if that's aimed at me?

I said in my post that I'd have preferred a different team selection if it is. Don't think it was that cautious either; Kuyt, Maxi, Benayoun, Gerrard and Torres are all attacking players. His substitutions were attacking ones too.

We just didn't convert our chances.
[/quote]

It was aimed at you and spidey, Ryan. The selection on paper may have been 'relatively' attacking, but our approach in the first half clearly was anything but. We looked like we were happy with 'controlling the game' and keeping a clean sheet, and only showed any real attacking intent in the last 20 mins, when we created lots of chances but unfortunately had taken off our best striker.

It was, in the circumstances, ludicrously over-cautious, but then that is Rafa's speciality.

[/quote]

Well, I'd have started with Babel instead of Yossi. If that had been the case, we couldn't really have been more attacking. Aquilani supposedly wasn't fit, so what do you want him to do, dream up attacking players?

He had, bar Babel, his most available attacking team out there.
[/quote]

Ryan, I've already said I'm not talking about the selection, but the approach. We played at half pace, the full-backs barely went past the halfway line, and the majority of our possession was wasted being prodded pointlessly around the back five. Rafa seems to want all our away matches to effectively last about 25 mins. Why is that?

At home, in recent games, we've taken the inititative and gone for the opponents' throats. Look at the Sunderland and Portsmouth games - both won before half-time. Why can't we do that away from home? And don't tell me it would be suicidal: Birmingham are solid, but they're hardly Chelsea. And don't mention our approach to away games in the 70s and 80s either: football, as you constantly remind us, has changed.
 
Spidey - and for that matter, anybody else who defends Rafa - answer me this:

If, as is looking increasingly likely, we don't get fourth - do you genuinely believe Rafa doesn't deserve to be sacked?

I'm not talking what you would personally do, but if he got sacked would you see it as unjustified?

Just curious
 
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=39669.msg1082803#msg1082803 date=1270539193]
[quote author=TheBunnyman link=topic=39669.msg1082796#msg1082796 date=1270538561]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=39669.msg1082794#msg1082794 date=1270538483]
[quote author=TheBunnyman link=topic=39669.msg1082784#msg1082784 date=1270537369]
Weird how neither of you has blamed the manager for our ridiculously over-cautious approach to the game. Who else do you think it's down to?

[/quote]

I mentioned it. the over cautious start could have been down to grueling 90 mins away to benfica but I doubt it, rafa seems to want his teams to start slowly in the first half and turn up the heat in the second half unless of course we HAVE to go for it, like if we conceed first.
[/quote]

And yet you consistently defend him. Why is that?

[/quote]

there are a number of reasons I defend rafa, lots of small items that add up to wanting him to stay beyond the season to see if this season is a blip or a trend. obviously if this form continued next season I'd want rid.

its the exact same way I felt when gh finished outside of the top 4 for the first time, it was season on season progression I wanted to see if it was a blip or a trend. gh actually managed to get the CL place again but it was clear his time was up, I don't feel that with rafa, yet.

[/quote]

Work out how many League games on average we lose a season under Benitez. Then ask yourself again when was the blip, this year or last year?
 
[quote author=singlerider link=topic=39669.msg1082808#msg1082808 date=1270539393]
Spidey - and for that matter, anybody else who defends Rafa - answer me this:

If, as is looking increasingly likely, we don't get fourth - do you genuinely believe Rafa doesn't deserve to be sacked?

I'm not talking what you would personally do, but if he got sacked would you see it as unjustified?

Just curious
[/quote]

I'd give him another year Single.

For me, he's earned one shite year, and this is it. If next season goes nowhere, then see ya.
 
[quote author=TheBunnyman link=topic=39669.msg1082804#msg1082804 date=1270539250]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=39669.msg1082800#msg1082800 date=1270538905]
[quote author=TheBunnyman link=topic=39669.msg1082792#msg1082792 date=1270538412]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=39669.msg1082786#msg1082786 date=1270537804]
[quote author=TheBunnyman link=topic=39669.msg1082784#msg1082784 date=1270537369]
Weird how neither of you has blamed the manager for our ridiculously over-cautious approach to the game. Who else do you think it's down to?

[/quote]

Erm, not sure if that's aimed at me?

I said in my post that I'd have preferred a different team selection if it is. Don't think it was that cautious either; Kuyt, Maxi, Benayoun, Gerrard and Torres are all attacking players. His substitutions were attacking ones too.

We just didn't convert our chances.
[/quote]

It was aimed at you and spidey, Ryan. The selection on paper may have been 'relatively' attacking, but our approach in the first half clearly was anything but. We looked like we were happy with 'controlling the game' and keeping a clean sheet, and only showed any real attacking intent in the last 20 mins, when we created lots of chances but unfortunately had taken off our best striker.

It was, in the circumstances, ludicrously over-cautious, but then that is Rafa's speciality.

[/quote]

Well, I'd have started with Babel instead of Yossi. If that had been the case, we couldn't really have been more attacking. Aquilani supposedly wasn't fit, so what do you want him to do, dream up attacking players?

He had, bar Babel, his most available attacking team out there.
[/quote]

Ryan, I've already said I'm not talking about the selection, but the approach. We played at half pace, the full-backs barely went past the halfway line, and the majority of our possession was wasted being prodded pointlessly around the back five. Rafa seems to want all our away matches to effectively last about 25 mins. Why is that?

At home, in recent games, we've taken the inititative and gone for the opponents' throats. Look at the Sunderland and Portsmouth games - both won before half-time. Why can't we do that away from home? And don't tell me it would be suicidal: Birmingham are solid, but they're hardly Chelsea. And don't mention our approach to away games in the 70s and 80s either: football, as you constantly remind us, has changed.


[/quote]

Bunny, playing away from home is a lot more different and difficult. Hence why Chelsea, Arsenal and United have all failed to beat Birmingham at St. Andrews.

We controlled the match, created half a dozen brilliant chances and didn't win the game. I'm not really arsed what our "approach" was to be honest.
 
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