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Klopp Needs To Loook At Himself

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Every single time teams go down our right, we get ripped apart. Game after game. Teams will have a winger and a fullback running at Trent or a CB who got pull out of position, there was no help at all. I don't think this is down to FSG, it's down to Klopp and his team.

Yesterday a winger came up against Konate on our right. He held him up, and successfully put in a tackle to knock the ball away. Who comes along to pick it up? Another Brighton player. We have NO other players in sight coming to help, Konate had to get himself up, and go again to the 2nd player, I felt sorry for him. Where was Trent or Hendo or Fab? God knows. That's down to the players and the coaching staff, 100%.
 
Frogfish said:
Getting VvD, Diaz, Jota and Nunez back and fit AND signing a high quality (not just any) midfielder just might.
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We looked just as bad defensively with VVD. Nunez isn't firing yet and Jota was dramatically out of form pre injury.

Honestly we're in the midst of our most concerning period since we nearly went under
 
Fabio said:
We looked just as bad defensively with VVD. Nunez isn't firing yet and Jota was dramatically out of form pre injury.

Honestly we're in the midst of our most concerning period since we nearly went under
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I don't believe 2 of those goals yesterday happen with VvD starting. He may not be in the form of his life but even an average VvD is better than 99% of the PL's CBs. Nunez clearly is firing - and his pace causes chaos - even if he needs twice as many chances to score. A player out of form is like the investment warning : history is no predictor of the future.

Fact is Ox, Gakpo and Mo is a far cry from Gakpo or Diaz - Nunez or Jota - Mo and likewise a CB pairing of VvD and Konate against the Matip and Gomez shit show.
 
Frogfish said:
No I'm not. Even an out of form VvD is a high quality CB. And an 'out of form' player doesn't stay that way.
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At what point does "out of form" become new level? Standards aren't maintained throughout a career, and yes, VVDs reading of the game is great, however with the line we play an aging, losing pace VVD isn't going to cope much longer without a dramatic shift in tactics
 
Frogfish said:
No I'm not. Even an out of form VvD is a high quality CB. And an 'out of form' player doesn't stay that way.
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I'm not sure anymore.
I think bar the Man City game - I haven't seen a Virgil that gives me hope he's recovered, or will recover fully.
The bottom line is we may need a top class CB to play along side Konate in the next 1-2 years.
 
Fabio said:
At what point does "out of form" become new level? Standards aren't maintained throughout a career, and yes, VVDs reading of the game is great, however with the line we play an aging, losing pace VVD isn't going to cope much longer without a dramatic shift in tactics
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There are many top class CBs who are no faster than the current version of VvD (and most of the CBs in the PL can't touch him). However an ability to read the game, to (the vast majority of the time for the following) have a superb heading ability at set pieces, immaculately timed tackles, excellent long passing ability to either flank, organisational and leadership skills and generally put the fear of God into most attackers so that they do anything not to have to face up to him ... is still worth it's weight in gold. IMO for whatever that is worth.

I reckon he's got 3 years left leading our back line, 5 including rotation. Even then that's still not old for a top quality defender. I'd still love Gvardiol to give us 3 from him, VvD & Konate though!
 
Frogfish said:
There are many top class CBs who are no faster than the current version of VvD (and most of the CBs in the PL can't touch him). However an ability to read the game, to (the vast majority of the time for the following) have a superb heading ability at set pieces, immaculately timed tackles, excellent long passing ability to either flank, organisational and leadership skills and generally put the fear of God into most attackers so that they do anything not to have to face up to him ... is still worth it's weight in gold. IMO for whatever that is worth.

I reckon he's got 3 years left leading our back line, 5 including rotation. Even then that's still not old for a top quality defender. I'd still love Gvardiol to give us 3 from him, VvD & Konate though!
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I hope you're right re: 3 years but I think we'll be lucky with 1 ...
 
We don't have the money to buy a Gvardiol. We gave VVD a mega new contract so he'll be here for the forseeable. Not a 10/10 player anymore but a 7-8/10.

We do have to think about replacing Matip though and in a year or two hopefully target the next Gvardiol.

Problems everywhere.
 
There is no point blaming the defence, they are also the midfield this season, coz there is fuck all in front of them this season to give them any shielding.
 
rurikbird said:
Signing one midfielder, even if it’s prime Kante, will not be enough to bring back the swashbuckling 4-3-3 pressing monsters of old - because there are 9 more outfield players on the pitch and almost all of them are showing massive drop-offs in energy this season.

However, signing one energetic, athletic and positionally intelligent midfielder coupled with a switch to a more controlled style of play, could make our midfield much more solid and the team overall more balanced. This is bad, but shouldn’t be unsolvable.
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Yep, just look at United.
 
tomasjj said:
It is interesting, until 3 years or so ago, our way of recruitment was an inspiration for other clubs.

We won the CL with this approach, but then we for some reason changed it. And we have been regressing in this area ever since, more or less.

Why?
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We’re not signing players in a vacuum - other teams have learned from what we did and adopted those strategies; data analysis, looking for hidden value. Brighton is one of the clubs that definitely did. You always have to invent something new to stay ahead of the curve.
 
rurikbird said:
We’re not signing players in a vacuum - other teams have learned from what we did and adopted those strategies; data analysis, looking for hidden value. Brighton is one of the clubs that definitely did. You always have to invent something new to stay ahead of the curve.
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While we should develop, I don't agree with that we should leave all that works fine behind, and that when others adapt it. it loses its relevance. Data, value, scouting still works.
 
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"end of the team", what a crock of revisionist shit. We'd just been in the final of the CL, gave City the scare of their lives in the league and dumped them from the Cup. We then added Carvalho who the papers couldn't stop harping on about was the subject of a tug of war between England and Portugal and had performed impressively against City of all teams in the cup. To complaints of an aging forward line, we brought in Nunez who was widely expected to compete with Haaland in the goalscoring charts. Not to mention we were still basking in the success of the Konate and Diaz transfers. A substantial majority were fucking pleased with our business over the summer.
 
At this point it's simply disingenuous to suggest that this team, that up to the last 20 minutes of match 38, was still with a shot of winning the quadruple, and then took a comparatively fresh RM to extra time, needed to be broken up over the summer because yeah, those are real clear signs of a team in terminal decline.
 
[article]
Jürgen Klopp has denied being too loyal to underperforming players and insisted there will be changes at Liverpool this summer.

Liverpool are 10 points adrift of Champions League qualification after back-to-back Premier League defeats at Brighton and Brentford. They visit Wolves in an FA Cup replay on Tuesday, having been fortunate to avoid defeat in the third-round tie at Anfield.

Klopp admits a team that came close to winning a quadruple last season are misfiring and have been unable to surprise opponents recently. The downturn, he insists, is not due to players no longer listening to their manager or his faith in talents who are past their best.
“I am loyal, I think everyone should be loyal, but I am not too loyal,” the Liverpool manager said. “The problem is too complex. You have a good player who did a lot of good stuff in the past and then maybe, in your mind, you think: ‘That’s it for him now.’ If you can then go out and bring in another player to replace him then it makes sense from both sides to say: ‘Come on, it was a great time, see you later.’ If you cannot bring anybody in then you cannot take anyone out, that’s the situation.”

Naby Keïta, Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain, James Milner and Roberto Firmino are out of contract this summer, when Liverpool are expected to attempt to sign Jude Bellingham from Borussia Dortmund. Klopp confirmed there would be changes and that he would not be going anywhere.

“When I left Dortmund I said: ‘Something has to change here.’ It was a different situation there but in a way it’s similar – either I go, the manager position changes, or a lot of other things change. As far as I know, from what I hear, I will not go. So that means maybe there’s a point where we have to change other stuff. And we will see that. But it’s something for the future, like in the summer, but not now.

“We cannot even think about it right now. We have to play better football now. We cannot play and say: ‘These are problems but next season we don’t have them any more.’ That is really long away. Until then we stick together and we fight. If we lose, we lose, but in a way that we can accept and not: ‘How could that happen?’

“I said Brighton were exceptional but in some moments it was too easy for them. That is why I would like to go through to see them again [in the FA Cup fourth round] and make it more difficult.”

[/article]

From @Andy Hunter in the guardian
https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...oo-loyal-towards-struggling-liverpool-players
 
i_rushie said:
At this point it's simply disingenuous to suggest that this team, that up to the last 20 minutes of match 38, was still with a shot of winning the quadruple, and then took a comparatively fresh RM to extra time, needed to be broken up over the summer because yeah, those are real clear signs of a team in terminal decline.
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I think your posts are disingenuous.

There have been numerous threads over the last couple years discussing the state of our ageing squad, the likely need for a refresh and questioning the lack of action on this front. Numerous debates over whether Mane is done, Firmino is done (though there was a general consensus that that was the case) and so forth and so forth.

Yes, last season we came within an inch of immortality but even then the cracks were there. You must acknowledge that, surely.

Are you going with the dreamy explanation that the squad simply needs a season off and next season Hendo and co will be back firing on all cylinders?

If not, what is it? Injuries? Bad luck? What explanation are you offering as an alternative?
 
Firmino has been done for years. Mané’s early season goals last season masked how shite
he was going. Salah has served shit sandwiches for over a year. Henderson plays like a 36 year old.

That’s four key players needing replacement to me (3 for most). We were lucky getting so close to the quad. We didn’t have the luxury of resting players at 4-0 up. It felt like every win was a goal or two. So had to give it all with one last push.

This season everyone one left is older, slower, weaker, whatever and we are paying the price.
 
keniget said:
I think your posts are disingenuous.
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These were the tweets alleging concern over summer and in August that the team was nearing its end.

King Binny said:
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I don't understand the need to pretend to be prescient between seasons or that anyone had foreseen this unprecedented collapse.

It's not just you Keni, it goes for all of us. By the end of summer, when we outplayed City in the Community Shield - and no one thought it was flattering to us- we were all largely excited for the season, Mane's departure notwithstanding (but as you say, there had long been talk that he was on the decline). We anticipated, if not hoped for, the exits of bit part players like Bobby, Ox and Keita, but any movement on that front was more or less as irrelevant as their continued presence in the line up.

Show me all the threads on here with all the hand wringing and fretting that in missing out on a Tchouameni or Bellingham over summer that the sky might fall in on us? That our midfield was done for after the season we had?

I don't know why this season has gone the way it had. For what it's worth, I think the blame goes first to Klopp and the coaching staff, even if I do have some sympathy that the way the season had gone was almost certainly beyond his wildest imagination.
 
i_rushie said:
These were the tweets alleging concern over summer and in August that the team was nearing its end.

I don't understand the need to pretend to be prescient between seasons or that anyone had foreseen this unprecedented collapse.

It's not just you Keni, it goes for all of us. By the end of summer, when we outplayed City in the Community Shield - and no one thought it was flattering to us- we were all largely excited for the season, Mane's departure notwithstanding (but as you say, there had long been talk that he was on the decline). We anticipated, if not hoped for, the exits of bit part players like Bobby, Ox and Keita, but any movement on that front was more or less as irrelevant as their continued presence in the line up.
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"our team is weaker than last year, and I keep waiting for us to sign a truly remarkable explosive midfield talent, but we continue to ask the same of older and older legs."

That was my thought before this season, and it wasn't controversial, and I wasn't the only one.

Did I think we'd fall off a cliff? Well, that fits into "what happens to a dream deferred?"
 
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