Fucking "Fans like you"
Grrrrrrr
Purleeeeeeeeeeeeese can we ban him?
Pwetty pwease?
Grrrrrrr
Purleeeeeeeeeeeeese can we ban him?
Pwetty pwease?
James Lawton Article
- Thread starter Rosco
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T
the_khl
Guest
@Singlerider
You argue that Rafa got money to spend that he was even 'backed by the owners' and then you come up with an example of how he got a staggering £3M to spend last Summer ?
What?
Anyways if that's actually true.. is it really? Then it's downright abysmal. Not talking blame from Rafa's shoulders here but fuck me £3M? That's even lesser than the top-clubs in the Danish League get to spend.
Add to this that Maxi came on a free in January.
That's a NET SPEND of £3M in a Season where we were in a supposedly better position than ever to challenge?
That's just fucking wrong no matter how you see it.
You argue that Rafa got money to spend that he was even 'backed by the owners' and then you come up with an example of how he got a staggering £3M to spend last Summer ?
What?
Anyways if that's actually true.. is it really? Then it's downright abysmal. Not talking blame from Rafa's shoulders here but fuck me £3M? That's even lesser than the top-clubs in the Danish League get to spend.
Add to this that Maxi came on a free in January.
That's a NET SPEND of £3M in a Season where we were in a supposedly better position than ever to challenge?
That's just fucking wrong no matter how you see it.
Yeah, that's a fair point.
The red mist had descended by that point
The red mist had descended by that point
[quote author=Buddha link=topic=39473.msg1076303#msg1076303 date=1269519401]
[quote author=ibromurph link=topic=39473.msg1076298#msg1076298 date=1269518516]
Great post above Ross.
This may stick in the craw and I may take some pelters for this, but I personally don't think that Rafa is in the same league (right now) as Fergie, Wenger or indeed Mourinho when it comes to managing a team over a season (consistently). He's up there (otherwise he wouldn't be managing us) don't get me wrong, but they're just clearly better at their jobs all round.
In management terms, he's still young(ish) and may one day get up there, but his personality and stubbornness suggests it will take a lot of time.
[/quote]
He's simply too defensively-minded to amass enough points over the course of the season to win the Premier League. Last season, just like in most games, Rafa seemed intent on protecting our lead once we were out in front in the premiership, before throwing caution to the wind when our title challenge was all but over. Then this season we struggle and what does he do? Persist with a compact, inhibited side with two defensive midfielders and no creativity, with our 20m creative midfielder on the bench.
Conclusion: When we're leading the pack Rafa's instinct is to keep things tight and compact. When we're falling apart Rafa's instinct is to keep things tight and compact. Compare with Ferguson/Wenger/Mourinho.
[/quote]
Well, like I've said on numerous occasions, I don't believe a Rafa Benitez managed side will ever finish above a Ferguson-managed one, unless the changed the points system back to the 2-1-0 scheme.
Ferguson's mentality that draws = losses, mean that when the score is 1-1 going into the 80th minute, whether they are playing at White Hart Lane, or Villa Park or the Emirates, he's thinking about going all out for the win. Whereas Rafa would look upon it as a "good point away to a tough side". A mentality which served him well in Spain, where he won the title with 75pts (21W, 12D, 5L) and 77pts (23W, 8D, 7L).
[quote author=ibromurph link=topic=39473.msg1076298#msg1076298 date=1269518516]
Great post above Ross.
This may stick in the craw and I may take some pelters for this, but I personally don't think that Rafa is in the same league (right now) as Fergie, Wenger or indeed Mourinho when it comes to managing a team over a season (consistently). He's up there (otherwise he wouldn't be managing us) don't get me wrong, but they're just clearly better at their jobs all round.
In management terms, he's still young(ish) and may one day get up there, but his personality and stubbornness suggests it will take a lot of time.
[/quote]
He's simply too defensively-minded to amass enough points over the course of the season to win the Premier League. Last season, just like in most games, Rafa seemed intent on protecting our lead once we were out in front in the premiership, before throwing caution to the wind when our title challenge was all but over. Then this season we struggle and what does he do? Persist with a compact, inhibited side with two defensive midfielders and no creativity, with our 20m creative midfielder on the bench.
Conclusion: When we're leading the pack Rafa's instinct is to keep things tight and compact. When we're falling apart Rafa's instinct is to keep things tight and compact. Compare with Ferguson/Wenger/Mourinho.
[/quote]
Well, like I've said on numerous occasions, I don't believe a Rafa Benitez managed side will ever finish above a Ferguson-managed one, unless the changed the points system back to the 2-1-0 scheme.
Ferguson's mentality that draws = losses, mean that when the score is 1-1 going into the 80th minute, whether they are playing at White Hart Lane, or Villa Park or the Emirates, he's thinking about going all out for the win. Whereas Rafa would look upon it as a "good point away to a tough side". A mentality which served him well in Spain, where he won the title with 75pts (21W, 12D, 5L) and 77pts (23W, 8D, 7L).
Net spend is not what bought the players though is it?
Yes maybe the owners should have given more money but the fact is that he did have 30 odd million to spend. It doesn't matter where it came from, he was given it, he spent it and thus far it looks as though he has wasted most of it. Again.
Yes maybe the owners should have given more money but the fact is that he did have 30 odd million to spend. It doesn't matter where it came from, he was given it, he spent it and thus far it looks as though he has wasted most of it. Again.
[quote author=Richey link=topic=39473.msg1076322#msg1076322 date=1269521614]
Net spend is not what bought the players though is it?
Yes maybe the owners should have given more money but the fact is that he did have 30 odd million to spend. It doesn't matter where it came from, he was given it, he spent it and thus far it looks as though he has wasted most of it. Again.
[/quote]
I don't think he wasted the money on Johnson or Aquilani.. they'll prove to be good players so long as he doesn't take away all their attacking instincts with defensive burdens.
I think he's just mis-managed his priorities this summer just gone (whereas last summer he totally wasted 35m). This year, he needed a wooden table, and bought himself a fancy lamp. Except, there's still no table to place that lamp on.
Net spend is not what bought the players though is it?
Yes maybe the owners should have given more money but the fact is that he did have 30 odd million to spend. It doesn't matter where it came from, he was given it, he spent it and thus far it looks as though he has wasted most of it. Again.
[/quote]
I don't think he wasted the money on Johnson or Aquilani.. they'll prove to be good players so long as he doesn't take away all their attacking instincts with defensive burdens.
I think he's just mis-managed his priorities this summer just gone (whereas last summer he totally wasted 35m). This year, he needed a wooden table, and bought himself a fancy lamp. Except, there's still no table to place that lamp on.
T
the_khl
Guest
@ Richey
I think you are amazingly missing the point.
Whatever you recoup on selling your best players should be added to whatever your transferbudget are. Especially if you are one of the biggest clubs in the world. Our transferbudget was about £3M.
I don't think any of those four players beeing brought in is bad players at all. Yeah there's been injuries and time to adjust but they are good players and I was quite happy to see them beeing introduced.
Had Rafa had a good £20M at a bare minimum then we would've probably had another striker and perhaps another LB too and this Season could've turned out very different even with all the injuries.
Anyone trying to neglect that this of course has had a major negative impact on our Season really are as blinkered at they do claim posters like Rebel to be.
I think you are amazingly missing the point.
Whatever you recoup on selling your best players should be added to whatever your transferbudget are. Especially if you are one of the biggest clubs in the world. Our transferbudget was about £3M.
I don't think any of those four players beeing brought in is bad players at all. Yeah there's been injuries and time to adjust but they are good players and I was quite happy to see them beeing introduced.
Had Rafa had a good £20M at a bare minimum then we would've probably had another striker and perhaps another LB too and this Season could've turned out very different even with all the injuries.
Anyone trying to neglect that this of course has had a major negative impact on our Season really are as blinkered at they do claim posters like Rebel to be.
[quote author=ibromurph link=topic=39473.msg1076331#msg1076331 date=1269522128]
I don't think he wasted the money on Johnson or Aquilani.. they'll prove to be good players so long as he doesn't take away all their attacking instincts with defensive burdens.
I think he's just mis-managed his priorities this summer just gone (whereas last summer he totally wasted 35m). This year, he needed a wooden table, and bought himself a fancy lamp. Except, there's still no table to place that lamp on.
[/quote]
Johnson is a good player so I agree, that is not wasted money. Aquilani thus far is wasted money as he replaced a player who was played all time and has hardly been played himself. If we are honest can we really see Aquilani succeeding under Benitez or is it more likely he will be sold off back to Italy with vague stories about not settling and with all the Rafa apologists bleating about how we made the money back so it doesn't matter?
And yes, the previous summer the entire transfer budget was totally wasted.
I don't think he wasted the money on Johnson or Aquilani.. they'll prove to be good players so long as he doesn't take away all their attacking instincts with defensive burdens.
I think he's just mis-managed his priorities this summer just gone (whereas last summer he totally wasted 35m). This year, he needed a wooden table, and bought himself a fancy lamp. Except, there's still no table to place that lamp on.
[/quote]
Johnson is a good player so I agree, that is not wasted money. Aquilani thus far is wasted money as he replaced a player who was played all time and has hardly been played himself. If we are honest can we really see Aquilani succeeding under Benitez or is it more likely he will be sold off back to Italy with vague stories about not settling and with all the Rafa apologists bleating about how we made the money back so it doesn't matter?
And yes, the previous summer the entire transfer budget was totally wasted.
[quote author=KHL link=topic=39473.msg1076318#msg1076318 date=1269521361]
@Singlerider
You argue that Rafa got money to spend that he was even 'backed by the owners' and then you come up with an example of how he got a staggering £3M to spend last Summer ?
What?
Anyways if that's actually true.. is it really? Then it's downright abysmal. Not talking blame from Rafa's shoulders here but fuck me £3M? That's even lesser than the top-clubs in the Danish League get to spend.
Add to this that Maxi came on a free in January.
That's a NET SPEND of £3M in a Season where we were in a supposedly better position than ever to challenge?
That's just fucking wrong no matter how you see it.
[/quote]
Who did we spend the Keane money on mate?
@Singlerider
You argue that Rafa got money to spend that he was even 'backed by the owners' and then you come up with an example of how he got a staggering £3M to spend last Summer ?
What?
Anyways if that's actually true.. is it really? Then it's downright abysmal. Not talking blame from Rafa's shoulders here but fuck me £3M? That's even lesser than the top-clubs in the Danish League get to spend.
Add to this that Maxi came on a free in January.
That's a NET SPEND of £3M in a Season where we were in a supposedly better position than ever to challenge?
That's just fucking wrong no matter how you see it.
[/quote]
Who did we spend the Keane money on mate?
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=39473.msg1076302#msg1076302 date=1269519317]
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=39473.msg1076289#msg1076289 date=1269517762]
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=39473.msg1076274#msg1076274 date=1269515320]
Yes he has Del.
If G&H think it's acceptable to include wages when it comes to our transfer kitty, then i thinks it's fair to do the same when we are doing a comparison with our rivals.
Taking into account transfer fees + our wage bill, then the gooners, chavs and Utd all continue to spend more than us (+Spurs and City for that matter).
[/quote]
I have provided figures to the contrary to before, as I'm sure has Ross.
What's interesting, is that those who continue to oppose or ignore those figures, have absolutely no evidence to back themselves up.
Funny that.
[/quote]
I'm just going on the figures produced by Deloitte's annual review of football finance's Del
"Chelsea, with wage costs of £172m remains the
highest spender by some distance, over £50m above
the next highest club, Manchester United, who spent
£121m. The other top five wages spenders in 2008 are, for the sixth season in succession, Arsenal £101m,
Liverpool £90m, Newcastle United £75m".
Looking at those figures it's clear to see that the Scum, chavs and now City (from what we already clearly know) easily out spend us.
The Gooners wage bill is only £11m more a season than ours, so on that score i stand corrected.
[/quote]
And what about the money spent on transfers? Or have you just written that off?
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=39473.msg1076289#msg1076289 date=1269517762]
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=39473.msg1076274#msg1076274 date=1269515320]
Yes he has Del.
If G&H think it's acceptable to include wages when it comes to our transfer kitty, then i thinks it's fair to do the same when we are doing a comparison with our rivals.
Taking into account transfer fees + our wage bill, then the gooners, chavs and Utd all continue to spend more than us (+Spurs and City for that matter).
[/quote]
I have provided figures to the contrary to before, as I'm sure has Ross.
What's interesting, is that those who continue to oppose or ignore those figures, have absolutely no evidence to back themselves up.
Funny that.
[/quote]
I'm just going on the figures produced by Deloitte's annual review of football finance's Del
"Chelsea, with wage costs of £172m remains the
highest spender by some distance, over £50m above
the next highest club, Manchester United, who spent
£121m. The other top five wages spenders in 2008 are, for the sixth season in succession, Arsenal £101m,
Liverpool £90m, Newcastle United £75m".
Looking at those figures it's clear to see that the Scum, chavs and now City (from what we already clearly know) easily out spend us.
The Gooners wage bill is only £11m more a season than ours, so on that score i stand corrected.
[/quote]
And what about the money spent on transfers? Or have you just written that off?
[quote author=KHL link=topic=39473.msg1076335#msg1076335 date=1269522730]
@ Richey
I think you are amazingly missing the point.
Whatever you recoup on selling your best players should be added to whatever your transferbudget are. Especially if you are one of the biggest clubs in the world. Our transferbudget was about £3M.
I don't think any of those four players beeing brought in is bad players at all. Yeah there's been injuries and time to adjust but they are good players and I was quite happy to see them beeing introduced.
Had Rafa had a good £20M at a bare minimum then we would've probably had another striker and perhaps another LB too and this Season could've turned out very different even with all the injuries.
Anyone trying to neglect that this of course has had a major negative impact on our Season really are as blinkered at they do claim posters like Rebel to be.
[/quote]
The season may also have been a bit different had an influencial starting 11 player not been sold for a big fee and replaced by another player with a big fee who has not been played at all.
We could have done with more money and could have done with more players but I am talking about the money that was spent and the players who were signed rather than the 'ifs' and 'buts'
@ Richey
I think you are amazingly missing the point.
Whatever you recoup on selling your best players should be added to whatever your transferbudget are. Especially if you are one of the biggest clubs in the world. Our transferbudget was about £3M.
I don't think any of those four players beeing brought in is bad players at all. Yeah there's been injuries and time to adjust but they are good players and I was quite happy to see them beeing introduced.
Had Rafa had a good £20M at a bare minimum then we would've probably had another striker and perhaps another LB too and this Season could've turned out very different even with all the injuries.
Anyone trying to neglect that this of course has had a major negative impact on our Season really are as blinkered at they do claim posters like Rebel to be.
[/quote]
The season may also have been a bit different had an influencial starting 11 player not been sold for a big fee and replaced by another player with a big fee who has not been played at all.
We could have done with more money and could have done with more players but I am talking about the money that was spent and the players who were signed rather than the 'ifs' and 'buts'
T
the_khl
Guest
[quote author=Richey link=topic=39473.msg1076338#msg1076338 date=1269522836]
[quote author=ibromurph link=topic=39473.msg1076331#msg1076331 date=1269522128]
I don't think he wasted the money on Johnson or Aquilani.. they'll prove to be good players so long as he doesn't take away all their attacking instincts with defensive burdens.
I think he's just mis-managed his priorities this summer just gone (whereas last summer he totally wasted 35m). This year, he needed a wooden table, and bought himself a fancy lamp. Except, there's still no table to place that lamp on.
[/quote]
Johnson is a good player so I agree, that is not wasted money. Aquilani thus far is wasted money as he replaced a player who was played all time and has hardly been played himself. If we are honest can we really see Aquilani succeeding under Benitez or is it more likely he will be sold off back to Italy with vague stories about not settling and with all the Rafa apologists bleating about how we made the money back so it doesn't matter?
And yes, the previous ummer the entire transfer budget was totally wasted.
[/quote]
£3M - the entire Seasons transferbudget. And we're not even Rochdale.
£3M + recouped money on one of the best midfielders around which you of course you would've used much wiser - brought in loads of talent from around the globe all ready to take over Alonso's position from day one. (Bare in mind of course you've just spunked £17M on Johnson whom you reckon was a good buy so that leaves you with £16M)
Can't wait to hear your strategy on this one.
It's silly really. You ask for people to stop beeing so blinkered in their defense of Rafa when all you do is beeing the exact same in your criticism. Blinkered.
[quote author=ibromurph link=topic=39473.msg1076331#msg1076331 date=1269522128]
I don't think he wasted the money on Johnson or Aquilani.. they'll prove to be good players so long as he doesn't take away all their attacking instincts with defensive burdens.
I think he's just mis-managed his priorities this summer just gone (whereas last summer he totally wasted 35m). This year, he needed a wooden table, and bought himself a fancy lamp. Except, there's still no table to place that lamp on.
[/quote]
Johnson is a good player so I agree, that is not wasted money. Aquilani thus far is wasted money as he replaced a player who was played all time and has hardly been played himself. If we are honest can we really see Aquilani succeeding under Benitez or is it more likely he will be sold off back to Italy with vague stories about not settling and with all the Rafa apologists bleating about how we made the money back so it doesn't matter?
And yes, the previous ummer the entire transfer budget was totally wasted.
[/quote]
£3M - the entire Seasons transferbudget. And we're not even Rochdale.
£3M + recouped money on one of the best midfielders around which you of course you would've used much wiser - brought in loads of talent from around the globe all ready to take over Alonso's position from day one. (Bare in mind of course you've just spunked £17M on Johnson whom you reckon was a good buy so that leaves you with £16M)
Can't wait to hear your strategy on this one.
It's silly really. You ask for people to stop beeing so blinkered in their defense of Rafa when all you do is beeing the exact same in your criticism. Blinkered.
[quote author=singlerider link=topic=39473.msg1076311#msg1076311 date=1269520767]
Xabi - £30M
Sami - free
Arbeloa - £3.5
Aqualani - £17M
Magic - £17.5M
Kyrgiakos - £2M
So - sold £33.5M, bought £36.5M. He was backed, he had money to spend -[/quote]
where's the money for the keane sale or doesn't that count?
Xabi - £30M
Sami - free
Arbeloa - £3.5
Aqualani - £17M
Magic - £17.5M
Kyrgiakos - £2M
So - sold £33.5M, bought £36.5M. He was backed, he had money to spend -[/quote]
where's the money for the keane sale or doesn't that count?
It all comes down to whether he knew that was his budget or not.
If he thought he was gonna get more backing, then spending £17.5M on Johnson is okay - overpriced, but quality.
£17M on a straight replacement for Xabi is fine, if Aqua can perform to the standards Oncy and co reckon he can and he did the other day. However, as the main replacement for one of the most important players in the team, buying a player that's gonna be out for months is a bit daft.
Then presumably the rest would have gone on a decent back up for Torres, and some should have gone on a decent winger - but seeing as Rafa hasn't bought one of those since he's been here, there's no reason to believe he was gonna start now.
However - if he knew that was all he had to work with, then what the fuck was he thinking?
Either way, we'll never know, and either way there's still an almighty fuck up on Rafa's shoulders
If he thought he was gonna get more backing, then spending £17.5M on Johnson is okay - overpriced, but quality.
£17M on a straight replacement for Xabi is fine, if Aqua can perform to the standards Oncy and co reckon he can and he did the other day. However, as the main replacement for one of the most important players in the team, buying a player that's gonna be out for months is a bit daft.
Then presumably the rest would have gone on a decent back up for Torres, and some should have gone on a decent winger - but seeing as Rafa hasn't bought one of those since he's been here, there's no reason to believe he was gonna start now.
However - if he knew that was all he had to work with, then what the fuck was he thinking?
Either way, we'll never know, and either way there's still an almighty fuck up on Rafa's shoulders
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=39473.msg1076340#msg1076340 date=1269522911]
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=39473.msg1076302#msg1076302 date=1269519317]
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=39473.msg1076289#msg1076289 date=1269517762]
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=39473.msg1076274#msg1076274 date=1269515320]
Yes he has Del.
If G&H think it's acceptable to include wages when it comes to our transfer kitty, then i thinks it's fair to do the same when we are doing a comparison with our rivals.
Taking into account transfer fees + our wage bill, then the gooners, chavs and Utd all continue to spend more than us (+Spurs and City for that matter).
[/quote]
I have provided figures to the contrary to before, as I'm sure has Ross.
What's interesting, is that those who continue to oppose or ignore those figures, have absolutely no evidence to back themselves up.
Funny that.
[/quote]
I'm just going on the figures produced by Deloitte's annual review of football finance's Del
"Chelsea, with wage costs of £172m remains the
highest spender by some distance, over £50m above
the next highest club, Manchester United, who spent
£121m. The other top five wages spenders in 2008 are, for the sixth season in succession, Arsenal £101m,
Liverpool £90m, Newcastle United £75m".
Looking at those figures it's clear to see that the Scum, chavs and now City (from what we already clearly know) easily out spend us.
The Gooners wage bill is only £11m more a season than ours, so on that score i stand corrected.
[/quote]
And what about the money spent on transfers? Or have you just written that off?
[/quote]
the point is the money for transfers was half funded by sales and I suspect the other half coming from reaching the latter stages of the CL every season we have been in it. is that backing from the owners? is that investing in the team?
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=39473.msg1076302#msg1076302 date=1269519317]
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=39473.msg1076289#msg1076289 date=1269517762]
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=39473.msg1076274#msg1076274 date=1269515320]
Yes he has Del.
If G&H think it's acceptable to include wages when it comes to our transfer kitty, then i thinks it's fair to do the same when we are doing a comparison with our rivals.
Taking into account transfer fees + our wage bill, then the gooners, chavs and Utd all continue to spend more than us (+Spurs and City for that matter).
[/quote]
I have provided figures to the contrary to before, as I'm sure has Ross.
What's interesting, is that those who continue to oppose or ignore those figures, have absolutely no evidence to back themselves up.
Funny that.
[/quote]
I'm just going on the figures produced by Deloitte's annual review of football finance's Del
"Chelsea, with wage costs of £172m remains the
highest spender by some distance, over £50m above
the next highest club, Manchester United, who spent
£121m. The other top five wages spenders in 2008 are, for the sixth season in succession, Arsenal £101m,
Liverpool £90m, Newcastle United £75m".
Looking at those figures it's clear to see that the Scum, chavs and now City (from what we already clearly know) easily out spend us.
The Gooners wage bill is only £11m more a season than ours, so on that score i stand corrected.
[/quote]
And what about the money spent on transfers? Or have you just written that off?
[/quote]
the point is the money for transfers was half funded by sales and I suspect the other half coming from reaching the latter stages of the CL every season we have been in it. is that backing from the owners? is that investing in the team?
[quote author=singlerider link=topic=39473.msg1076348#msg1076348 date=1269523690]
It all comes down to whether he knew that was his budget or not.
If he thought he was gonna get more backing, then spending £17.5M on Johnson is okay - overpriced, but quality.
£17M on a straight replacement for Xabi is fine, if Aqua can perform to the standards Oncy and co reckon he can and he did the other day. However, as the main replacement for one of the most important players in the team, buying a player that's gonna be out for months is a bit daft.
Then presumably the rest would have gone on a decent back up for Torres, and some should have gone on a decent winger - but seeing as Rafa hasn't bought one of those since he's been here, there's no reason to believe he was gonna start now.
However - if he knew that was all he had to work with, then what the fuck was he thinking?
Either way, we'll never know, and either way there's still an almighty fuck up on Rafa's shoulders
[/quote]
I'd bet money that if rafa knew he wasn't going to recieve the keane money he wouldn't have bothered selling him. the owners knew full well we only had one established out and out striker on the books and in a season that saw us rise to second the summer to consoladate that position they withheld that money.
for example imagine if that money was forthcoming and with it we bought darren bent and every game torres didn't play we fielded bent, how many points better off do you think we would be? even it is a mere 5 points we'd be in fourth place.
It all comes down to whether he knew that was his budget or not.
If he thought he was gonna get more backing, then spending £17.5M on Johnson is okay - overpriced, but quality.
£17M on a straight replacement for Xabi is fine, if Aqua can perform to the standards Oncy and co reckon he can and he did the other day. However, as the main replacement for one of the most important players in the team, buying a player that's gonna be out for months is a bit daft.
Then presumably the rest would have gone on a decent back up for Torres, and some should have gone on a decent winger - but seeing as Rafa hasn't bought one of those since he's been here, there's no reason to believe he was gonna start now.
However - if he knew that was all he had to work with, then what the fuck was he thinking?
Either way, we'll never know, and either way there's still an almighty fuck up on Rafa's shoulders
[/quote]
I'd bet money that if rafa knew he wasn't going to recieve the keane money he wouldn't have bothered selling him. the owners knew full well we only had one established out and out striker on the books and in a season that saw us rise to second the summer to consoladate that position they withheld that money.
for example imagine if that money was forthcoming and with it we bought darren bent and every game torres didn't play we fielded bent, how many points better off do you think we would be? even it is a mere 5 points we'd be in fourth place.
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=39473.msg1076340#msg1076340 date=1269522911]
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=39473.msg1076302#msg1076302 date=1269519317]
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=39473.msg1076289#msg1076289 date=1269517762]
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=39473.msg1076274#msg1076274 date=1269515320]
Yes he has Del.
If G&H think it's acceptable to include wages when it comes to our transfer kitty, then i thinks it's fair to do the same when we are doing a comparison with our rivals.
Taking into account transfer fees + our wage bill, then the gooners, chavs and Utd all continue to spend more than us (+Spurs and City for that matter).
[/quote]
I have provided figures to the contrary to before, as I'm sure has Ross.
What's interesting, is that those who continue to oppose or ignore those figures, have absolutely no evidence to back themselves up.
Funny that.
[/quote]
I'm just going on the figures produced by Deloitte's annual review of football finance's Del
"Chelsea, with wage costs of £172m remains the
highest spender by some distance, over £50m above
the next highest club, Manchester United, who spent
£121m. The other top five wages spenders in 2008 are, for the sixth season in succession, Arsenal £101m,
Liverpool £90m, Newcastle United £75m".
Looking at those figures it's clear to see that the Scum, chavs and now City (from what we already clearly know) easily out spend us.
The Gooners wage bill is only £11m more a season than ours, so on that score i stand corrected.
[/quote]
And what about the money spent on transfers? Or have you just written that off?
[/quote]
Of course not.
According to LFC History, Rafa has spent £228m and recouped £153m of that (£75m net spend). So i think it's clear to see that the Manc's (£31m more in wages alone PS), Chavs (£83m more PS + £225m gross on players) and City (who have spent gross £200m+ on players and have a huge wage bill) will all of spent more than us after taking into account transfer fee's.
As i have already admitted though, even taking into account the £11m more that the Gooners pay in wages, they still spend less than us, but it's a lot closer than what many on here think. In this period though, what have Arsenal won?
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=39473.msg1076302#msg1076302 date=1269519317]
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=39473.msg1076289#msg1076289 date=1269517762]
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=39473.msg1076274#msg1076274 date=1269515320]
Yes he has Del.
If G&H think it's acceptable to include wages when it comes to our transfer kitty, then i thinks it's fair to do the same when we are doing a comparison with our rivals.
Taking into account transfer fees + our wage bill, then the gooners, chavs and Utd all continue to spend more than us (+Spurs and City for that matter).
[/quote]
I have provided figures to the contrary to before, as I'm sure has Ross.
What's interesting, is that those who continue to oppose or ignore those figures, have absolutely no evidence to back themselves up.
Funny that.
[/quote]
I'm just going on the figures produced by Deloitte's annual review of football finance's Del
"Chelsea, with wage costs of £172m remains the
highest spender by some distance, over £50m above
the next highest club, Manchester United, who spent
£121m. The other top five wages spenders in 2008 are, for the sixth season in succession, Arsenal £101m,
Liverpool £90m, Newcastle United £75m".
Looking at those figures it's clear to see that the Scum, chavs and now City (from what we already clearly know) easily out spend us.
The Gooners wage bill is only £11m more a season than ours, so on that score i stand corrected.
[/quote]
And what about the money spent on transfers? Or have you just written that off?
[/quote]
Of course not.
According to LFC History, Rafa has spent £228m and recouped £153m of that (£75m net spend). So i think it's clear to see that the Manc's (£31m more in wages alone PS), Chavs (£83m more PS + £225m gross on players) and City (who have spent gross £200m+ on players and have a huge wage bill) will all of spent more than us after taking into account transfer fee's.
As i have already admitted though, even taking into account the £11m more that the Gooners pay in wages, they still spend less than us, but it's a lot closer than what many on here think. In this period though, what have Arsenal won?
[quote author=KHL link=topic=39473.msg1076343#msg1076343 date=1269523293]
£3M - the entire Seasons transferbudget. And we're not even Rochdale.
£3M + recouped money on one of the best midfielders around which you of course you would've used much wiser - brought in loads of talent from around the globe all ready to take over Alonso's position from day one. (Bare in mind of course you've just spunked £17M on Johnson whom you reckon was a good buy so that leaves you with £16M)
Can't wait to hear your strategy on this one.
It's silly really. You ask for people to stop beeing so blinkered in their defense of Rafa when all you do is beeing the exact same in your criticism. Blinkered.
[/quote]
The summer's transfer budget was not 3 million. It was 36 million. That is what was spent was it not? Or did we buy 3 international players for just 3 million? Don't think we did.
You seem to be under some strange impression that the only money that counts is extra money that comes other than from player sales. That is not the case at all. Wherever it comes from, money was made available and spent, and those players are judged on their performance NOT on how their transfer fees were raised.
As I said before, it would have been dead lovely to have had loads of cash to bring in other players but we didn't have that so we had to deal with what we did have, which was still a sizeable amount, and IMO that was largely wasted. And for the record yes I do think that Johnson is a good player. I may or may not have paid that much money for him but I was trying to give Benitez the benefit of the doubt on that one.
Oh, and if you don't mind young man I would rather not take lessons on being blinkered from someone who essentially foams at the mouth with rage whenever the name Jose Mourinho is mentioned, who in all seriousness takes any chance he can to suggest that Michael Laudrup should be our new manager despite his extremely average record, who recently suggested that Daniel Agger should be our captain and who, when faced with a team last season who were collapsing defensively praised them for 'reinventing football'
£3M - the entire Seasons transferbudget. And we're not even Rochdale.
£3M + recouped money on one of the best midfielders around which you of course you would've used much wiser - brought in loads of talent from around the globe all ready to take over Alonso's position from day one. (Bare in mind of course you've just spunked £17M on Johnson whom you reckon was a good buy so that leaves you with £16M)
Can't wait to hear your strategy on this one.
It's silly really. You ask for people to stop beeing so blinkered in their defense of Rafa when all you do is beeing the exact same in your criticism. Blinkered.
[/quote]
The summer's transfer budget was not 3 million. It was 36 million. That is what was spent was it not? Or did we buy 3 international players for just 3 million? Don't think we did.
You seem to be under some strange impression that the only money that counts is extra money that comes other than from player sales. That is not the case at all. Wherever it comes from, money was made available and spent, and those players are judged on their performance NOT on how their transfer fees were raised.
As I said before, it would have been dead lovely to have had loads of cash to bring in other players but we didn't have that so we had to deal with what we did have, which was still a sizeable amount, and IMO that was largely wasted. And for the record yes I do think that Johnson is a good player. I may or may not have paid that much money for him but I was trying to give Benitez the benefit of the doubt on that one.
Oh, and if you don't mind young man I would rather not take lessons on being blinkered from someone who essentially foams at the mouth with rage whenever the name Jose Mourinho is mentioned, who in all seriousness takes any chance he can to suggest that Michael Laudrup should be our new manager despite his extremely average record, who recently suggested that Daniel Agger should be our captain and who, when faced with a team last season who were collapsing defensively praised them for 'reinventing football'
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=39473.msg1076351#msg1076351 date=1269523791]
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=39473.msg1076340#msg1076340 date=1269522911]
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=39473.msg1076302#msg1076302 date=1269519317]
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=39473.msg1076289#msg1076289 date=1269517762]
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=39473.msg1076274#msg1076274 date=1269515320]
Yes he has Del.
If G&H think it's acceptable to include wages when it comes to our transfer kitty, then i thinks it's fair to do the same when we are doing a comparison with our rivals.
Taking into account transfer fees + our wage bill, then the gooners, chavs and Utd all continue to spend more than us (+Spurs and City for that matter).
[/quote]
I have provided figures to the contrary to before, as I'm sure has Ross.
What's interesting, is that those who continue to oppose or ignore those figures, have absolutely no evidence to back themselves up.
Funny that.
[/quote]
I'm just going on the figures produced by Deloitte's annual review of football finance's Del
"Chelsea, with wage costs of £172m remains the
highest spender by some distance, over £50m above
the next highest club, Manchester United, who spent
£121m. The other top five wages spenders in 2008 are, for the sixth season in succession, Arsenal £101m,
Liverpool £90m, Newcastle United £75m".
Looking at those figures it's clear to see that the Scum, chavs and now City (from what we already clearly know) easily out spend us.
The Gooners wage bill is only £11m more a season than ours, so on that score i stand corrected.
[/quote]
And what about the money spent on transfers? Or have you just written that off?
[/quote]
the point is the money for transfers was half funded by sales and I suspect the other half coming from reaching the latter stages of the CL every season we have been in it. is that backing from the owners? is that investing in the team?
[/quote]
No. THAT money went towards paying the players' wages and general maintenance around the training ground.
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=39473.msg1076340#msg1076340 date=1269522911]
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=39473.msg1076302#msg1076302 date=1269519317]
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=39473.msg1076289#msg1076289 date=1269517762]
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=39473.msg1076274#msg1076274 date=1269515320]
Yes he has Del.
If G&H think it's acceptable to include wages when it comes to our transfer kitty, then i thinks it's fair to do the same when we are doing a comparison with our rivals.
Taking into account transfer fees + our wage bill, then the gooners, chavs and Utd all continue to spend more than us (+Spurs and City for that matter).
[/quote]
I have provided figures to the contrary to before, as I'm sure has Ross.
What's interesting, is that those who continue to oppose or ignore those figures, have absolutely no evidence to back themselves up.
Funny that.
[/quote]
I'm just going on the figures produced by Deloitte's annual review of football finance's Del
"Chelsea, with wage costs of £172m remains the
highest spender by some distance, over £50m above
the next highest club, Manchester United, who spent
£121m. The other top five wages spenders in 2008 are, for the sixth season in succession, Arsenal £101m,
Liverpool £90m, Newcastle United £75m".
Looking at those figures it's clear to see that the Scum, chavs and now City (from what we already clearly know) easily out spend us.
The Gooners wage bill is only £11m more a season than ours, so on that score i stand corrected.
[/quote]
And what about the money spent on transfers? Or have you just written that off?
[/quote]
the point is the money for transfers was half funded by sales and I suspect the other half coming from reaching the latter stages of the CL every season we have been in it. is that backing from the owners? is that investing in the team?
[/quote]
No. THAT money went towards paying the players' wages and general maintenance around the training ground.
[quote author=Richey link=topic=39473.msg1076354#msg1076354 date=1269524121]
[quote author=KHL link=topic=39473.msg1076343#msg1076343 date=1269523293]
£3M - the entire Seasons transferbudget. And we're not even Rochdale.
£3M + recouped money on one of the best midfielders around which you of course you would've used much wiser - brought in loads of talent from around the globe all ready to take over Alonso's position from day one. (Bare in mind of course you've just spunked £17M on Johnson whom you reckon was a good buy so that leaves you with £16M)
Can't wait to hear your strategy on this one.
It's silly really. You ask for people to stop beeing so blinkered in their defense of Rafa when all you do is beeing the exact same in your criticism. Blinkered.
[/quote]
The summer's transfer budget was not 3 million. It was 36 million. That is what was spent was it not? Or did we buy 3 international players for just 3 million? Don't think we did.
You seem to be under some strange impression that the only money that counts is extra money that comes other than from player sales. That is not the case at all. Wherever it comes from, money was made available and spent, and those players are judged on their performance NOT on how their transfer fees were raised.
As I said before, it would have been dead lovely to have had loads of cash to bring in other players but we didn't have that so we had to deal with what we did have, which was still a sizeable amount, and IMO that was largely wasted. And for the record yes I do think that Johnson is a good player. I may or may not have paid that much money for him but I was trying to give Benitez the benefit of the doubt on that one.
Oh, and if you don't mind young man I would rather not take lessons on being blinkered from someone who essentially foams at the mouth with rage whenever the name Jose Mourinho is mentioned, who in all seriousness takes any chance he can to suggest that Michael Laudrup should be our new manager despite his extremely average record, who recently suggested that Daniel Agger should be our captain and who, when faced with a team last season who were collapsing defensively praised them for 'reinventing football'
[/quote]
I have no idea why the concept is so hard to grasp.
if you sell 50m worth of players and buy 50m worth of players how is your squad being improved? are you not infact standing still?
when jose arrived at chelsea and rafa arrived at liverpool even if they spent the same amount of money (which patently isn't the case) the money for the chelsea transfers wasn't offset by sales where as the liverpool sales were so chelsea's squad is obviously going to be stronger even if both managers spend the same money (gross).
[quote author=KHL link=topic=39473.msg1076343#msg1076343 date=1269523293]
£3M - the entire Seasons transferbudget. And we're not even Rochdale.
£3M + recouped money on one of the best midfielders around which you of course you would've used much wiser - brought in loads of talent from around the globe all ready to take over Alonso's position from day one. (Bare in mind of course you've just spunked £17M on Johnson whom you reckon was a good buy so that leaves you with £16M)
Can't wait to hear your strategy on this one.
It's silly really. You ask for people to stop beeing so blinkered in their defense of Rafa when all you do is beeing the exact same in your criticism. Blinkered.
[/quote]
The summer's transfer budget was not 3 million. It was 36 million. That is what was spent was it not? Or did we buy 3 international players for just 3 million? Don't think we did.
You seem to be under some strange impression that the only money that counts is extra money that comes other than from player sales. That is not the case at all. Wherever it comes from, money was made available and spent, and those players are judged on their performance NOT on how their transfer fees were raised.
As I said before, it would have been dead lovely to have had loads of cash to bring in other players but we didn't have that so we had to deal with what we did have, which was still a sizeable amount, and IMO that was largely wasted. And for the record yes I do think that Johnson is a good player. I may or may not have paid that much money for him but I was trying to give Benitez the benefit of the doubt on that one.
Oh, and if you don't mind young man I would rather not take lessons on being blinkered from someone who essentially foams at the mouth with rage whenever the name Jose Mourinho is mentioned, who in all seriousness takes any chance he can to suggest that Michael Laudrup should be our new manager despite his extremely average record, who recently suggested that Daniel Agger should be our captain and who, when faced with a team last season who were collapsing defensively praised them for 'reinventing football'
[/quote]
I have no idea why the concept is so hard to grasp.
if you sell 50m worth of players and buy 50m worth of players how is your squad being improved? are you not infact standing still?
when jose arrived at chelsea and rafa arrived at liverpool even if they spent the same amount of money (which patently isn't the case) the money for the chelsea transfers wasn't offset by sales where as the liverpool sales were so chelsea's squad is obviously going to be stronger even if both managers spend the same money (gross).
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=39473.msg1076353#msg1076353 date=1269524111]
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=39473.msg1076340#msg1076340 date=1269522911]
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=39473.msg1076302#msg1076302 date=1269519317]
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=39473.msg1076289#msg1076289 date=1269517762]
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=39473.msg1076274#msg1076274 date=1269515320]
Yes he has Del.
If G&H think it's acceptable to include wages when it comes to our transfer kitty, then i thinks it's fair to do the same when we are doing a comparison with our rivals.
Taking into account transfer fees + our wage bill, then the gooners, chavs and Utd all continue to spend more than us (+Spurs and City for that matter).
[/quote]
I have provided figures to the contrary to before, as I'm sure has Ross.
What's interesting, is that those who continue to oppose or ignore those figures, have absolutely no evidence to back themselves up.
Funny that.
[/quote]
I'm just going on the figures produced by Deloitte's annual review of football finance's Del
"Chelsea, with wage costs of £172m remains the
highest spender by some distance, over £50m above
the next highest club, Manchester United, who spent
£121m. The other top five wages spenders in 2008 are, for the sixth season in succession, Arsenal £101m,
Liverpool £90m, Newcastle United £75m".
Looking at those figures it's clear to see that the Scum, chavs and now City (from what we already clearly know) easily out spend us.
The Gooners wage bill is only £11m more a season than ours, so on that score i stand corrected.
[/quote]
And what about the money spent on transfers? Or have you just written that off?
[/quote]
Of course not.
According to LFC History, Rafa has spent £228m and recouped £153m of that (£75m net spend). So i think it's clear to see that the Manc's (£31m more in wages alone), Chavs (£83m more + £225m gross on players) and City (who have spent £200m+ on players + Have a huge wage bill) will all of spent more than us after taking into account transfer fee's.
As i have already admitted though, even taking into account the £11m more that the Gooners pay in wages, they still spend less than us, but it's a lot closer than what many on here think. In this period though, what have Arsenal won?
[/quote]
Rafa4PM,
Personally, I think your wage bill argument is a very good one.. and often overlooked (even by myself).. thanks for the education there. If the Mancs are indeed spending 30m more anually on wages, then it would have a big impact on Rafa's capabilities in the transfer market. However, I STILL think with the little money he has had, 50% of it has been mis-managed.
If you compare him to Wenger, whilst both haven't won anything for a fair few seasons, I'd say Arsenal look like they're in a much better position to progress as a team. (As a club it's not worth debating, as their stadium will help them immeasurably and this isn't Rafa's fault, at all).
But it hasn't always been this way for Wenger. When he first came to Arsenal, they were at Highbury, making peanuts and spending it, whilst the Mancs were spending money like it was going out of fashion. The difference being that Wenger spent the little he had VERY astutely on the likes of Pires, Overmars, Vieira, Petit, etc, etc, the list goes on. It's only recently, that Wenger has gone all 'mad scientist' and is trying to build a U23 team. Initially, muich of his success was from being very prudent market, and Highbury wasn't the revolving door that Anfield is today.
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=39473.msg1076340#msg1076340 date=1269522911]
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=39473.msg1076302#msg1076302 date=1269519317]
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=39473.msg1076289#msg1076289 date=1269517762]
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=39473.msg1076274#msg1076274 date=1269515320]
Yes he has Del.
If G&H think it's acceptable to include wages when it comes to our transfer kitty, then i thinks it's fair to do the same when we are doing a comparison with our rivals.
Taking into account transfer fees + our wage bill, then the gooners, chavs and Utd all continue to spend more than us (+Spurs and City for that matter).
[/quote]
I have provided figures to the contrary to before, as I'm sure has Ross.
What's interesting, is that those who continue to oppose or ignore those figures, have absolutely no evidence to back themselves up.
Funny that.
[/quote]
I'm just going on the figures produced by Deloitte's annual review of football finance's Del
"Chelsea, with wage costs of £172m remains the
highest spender by some distance, over £50m above
the next highest club, Manchester United, who spent
£121m. The other top five wages spenders in 2008 are, for the sixth season in succession, Arsenal £101m,
Liverpool £90m, Newcastle United £75m".
Looking at those figures it's clear to see that the Scum, chavs and now City (from what we already clearly know) easily out spend us.
The Gooners wage bill is only £11m more a season than ours, so on that score i stand corrected.
[/quote]
And what about the money spent on transfers? Or have you just written that off?
[/quote]
Of course not.
According to LFC History, Rafa has spent £228m and recouped £153m of that (£75m net spend). So i think it's clear to see that the Manc's (£31m more in wages alone), Chavs (£83m more + £225m gross on players) and City (who have spent £200m+ on players + Have a huge wage bill) will all of spent more than us after taking into account transfer fee's.
As i have already admitted though, even taking into account the £11m more that the Gooners pay in wages, they still spend less than us, but it's a lot closer than what many on here think. In this period though, what have Arsenal won?
[/quote]
Rafa4PM,
Personally, I think your wage bill argument is a very good one.. and often overlooked (even by myself).. thanks for the education there. If the Mancs are indeed spending 30m more anually on wages, then it would have a big impact on Rafa's capabilities in the transfer market. However, I STILL think with the little money he has had, 50% of it has been mis-managed.
If you compare him to Wenger, whilst both haven't won anything for a fair few seasons, I'd say Arsenal look like they're in a much better position to progress as a team. (As a club it's not worth debating, as their stadium will help them immeasurably and this isn't Rafa's fault, at all).
But it hasn't always been this way for Wenger. When he first came to Arsenal, they were at Highbury, making peanuts and spending it, whilst the Mancs were spending money like it was going out of fashion. The difference being that Wenger spent the little he had VERY astutely on the likes of Pires, Overmars, Vieira, Petit, etc, etc, the list goes on. It's only recently, that Wenger has gone all 'mad scientist' and is trying to build a U23 team. Initially, muich of his success was from being very prudent market, and Highbury wasn't the revolving door that Anfield is today.
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=39473.msg1076357#msg1076357 date=1269524503]
[quote author=Richey link=topic=39473.msg1076354#msg1076354 date=1269524121]
[quote author=KHL link=topic=39473.msg1076343#msg1076343 date=1269523293]
£3M - the entire Seasons transferbudget. And we're not even Rochdale.
£3M + recouped money on one of the best midfielders around which you of course you would've used much wiser - brought in loads of talent from around the globe all ready to take over Alonso's position from day one. (Bare in mind of course you've just spunked £17M on Johnson whom you reckon was a good buy so that leaves you with £16M)
Can't wait to hear your strategy on this one.
It's silly really. You ask for people to stop beeing so blinkered in their defense of Rafa when all you do is beeing the exact same in your criticism. Blinkered.
[/quote]
The summer's transfer budget was not 3 million. It was 36 million. That is what was spent was it not? Or did we buy 3 international players for just 3 million? Don't think we did.
You seem to be under some strange impression that the only money that counts is extra money that comes other than from player sales. That is not the case at all. Wherever it comes from, money was made available and spent, and those players are judged on their performance NOT on how their transfer fees were raised.
As I said before, it would have been dead lovely to have had loads of cash to bring in other players but we didn't have that so we had to deal with what we did have, which was still a sizeable amount, and IMO that was largely wasted. And for the record yes I do think that Johnson is a good player. I may or may not have paid that much money for him but I was trying to give Benitez the benefit of the doubt on that one.
Oh, and if you don't mind young man I would rather not take lessons on being blinkered from someone who essentially foams at the mouth with rage whenever the name Jose Mourinho is mentioned, who in all seriousness takes any chance he can to suggest that Michael Laudrup should be our new manager despite his extremely average record, who recently suggested that Daniel Agger should be our captain and who, when faced with a team last season who were collapsing defensively praised them for 'reinventing football'
[/quote]
I have no idea why the concept is so hard to grasp.
if you sell 50m worth of players and buy 50m worth of players how is your squad being improved? are you not infact standing still?
[/quote]
You're looking at it in 2D Spider. Whilst I agree with the mathematics that he's spent what he's sold, your notion that the squad can't be improved is erroneous.
If you sell Anelka for 22m.. and then buy Henry, Vieira and Pires for a combined 22m.. you've improved the squad.
[quote author=Richey link=topic=39473.msg1076354#msg1076354 date=1269524121]
[quote author=KHL link=topic=39473.msg1076343#msg1076343 date=1269523293]
£3M - the entire Seasons transferbudget. And we're not even Rochdale.
£3M + recouped money on one of the best midfielders around which you of course you would've used much wiser - brought in loads of talent from around the globe all ready to take over Alonso's position from day one. (Bare in mind of course you've just spunked £17M on Johnson whom you reckon was a good buy so that leaves you with £16M)
Can't wait to hear your strategy on this one.
It's silly really. You ask for people to stop beeing so blinkered in their defense of Rafa when all you do is beeing the exact same in your criticism. Blinkered.
[/quote]
The summer's transfer budget was not 3 million. It was 36 million. That is what was spent was it not? Or did we buy 3 international players for just 3 million? Don't think we did.
You seem to be under some strange impression that the only money that counts is extra money that comes other than from player sales. That is not the case at all. Wherever it comes from, money was made available and spent, and those players are judged on their performance NOT on how their transfer fees were raised.
As I said before, it would have been dead lovely to have had loads of cash to bring in other players but we didn't have that so we had to deal with what we did have, which was still a sizeable amount, and IMO that was largely wasted. And for the record yes I do think that Johnson is a good player. I may or may not have paid that much money for him but I was trying to give Benitez the benefit of the doubt on that one.
Oh, and if you don't mind young man I would rather not take lessons on being blinkered from someone who essentially foams at the mouth with rage whenever the name Jose Mourinho is mentioned, who in all seriousness takes any chance he can to suggest that Michael Laudrup should be our new manager despite his extremely average record, who recently suggested that Daniel Agger should be our captain and who, when faced with a team last season who were collapsing defensively praised them for 'reinventing football'
[/quote]
I have no idea why the concept is so hard to grasp.
if you sell 50m worth of players and buy 50m worth of players how is your squad being improved? are you not infact standing still?
[/quote]
You're looking at it in 2D Spider. Whilst I agree with the mathematics that he's spent what he's sold, your notion that the squad can't be improved is erroneous.
If you sell Anelka for 22m.. and then buy Henry, Vieira and Pires for a combined 22m.. you've improved the squad.
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=39473.msg1076357#msg1076357 date=1269524503]
I have no idea why the concept is so hard to grasp.
if you sell 50m worth of players and buy 50m worth of players how is your squad being improved? are you not infact standing still?
when jose arrived at chelsea and rafa arrived at liverpool even if they spent the same amount of money (which patently isn't the case) the money for the chelsea transfers wasn't offset by sales where as the liverpool sales were so chelsea's squad is obviously going to be stronger even if both managers spend the same money (gross).
[/quote]
FFS mate, its not the standing still that is the problem this season. If financial constraints were forcing us to 'stand still' in the short term in order for us to move forward in the long term I could probably accept that.
No, its the slipping horribly into reverse that I am very much less than gruntled about.
We shouldn't need an extra 20-30 million on top of player sales every year to beat Wigan, Portsmouth, Villa, Spurs, Sunderland, Reading and Stoke.
If we were in 4th or maybe even challenging for 4th with one other side then I could deal with it, just, but we are not.
I have no idea why the concept is so hard to grasp.
if you sell 50m worth of players and buy 50m worth of players how is your squad being improved? are you not infact standing still?
when jose arrived at chelsea and rafa arrived at liverpool even if they spent the same amount of money (which patently isn't the case) the money for the chelsea transfers wasn't offset by sales where as the liverpool sales were so chelsea's squad is obviously going to be stronger even if both managers spend the same money (gross).
[/quote]
FFS mate, its not the standing still that is the problem this season. If financial constraints were forcing us to 'stand still' in the short term in order for us to move forward in the long term I could probably accept that.
No, its the slipping horribly into reverse that I am very much less than gruntled about.
We shouldn't need an extra 20-30 million on top of player sales every year to beat Wigan, Portsmouth, Villa, Spurs, Sunderland, Reading and Stoke.
If we were in 4th or maybe even challenging for 4th with one other side then I could deal with it, just, but we are not.
ibromurph:
It was Jexy that made me fully aware of the huge difference in wages mate.
I agree with most of what you say about Wenger, he's an excellent manager. I also agree that Rafa could of better spent a fair chunk of the cash he's had.
It's just that when you look at our steady progress under Rafa (before this season) and then take into account what our rivals budgets are, i'm not yet ready to join in with all the "Rafa can fuck off" calls.
It was Jexy that made me fully aware of the huge difference in wages mate.
I agree with most of what you say about Wenger, he's an excellent manager. I also agree that Rafa could of better spent a fair chunk of the cash he's had.
It's just that when you look at our steady progress under Rafa (before this season) and then take into account what our rivals budgets are, i'm not yet ready to join in with all the "Rafa can fuck off" calls.
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=39473.msg1076371#msg1076371 date=1269525856]
ibromurph:
It was Jexy that made me fully aware of the huge difference in wages mate.
I agree with most of what you say about Wenger, he's an excellent manager. I also agree that Rafa could of better spent a fair chunk of the cash he's had.
It's just that when you look at our steady progress under Rafa (before this season) and then take into account what our rivals budgets are, i'm not yet ready to join in with all the "Rafa can fuck off" calls.
[/quote]
Pretty much agree with that, tho why people want to make an issue of Rafa's signings that don't work out, when its the very nature of the game, is beyond me.
It's as though Rafa has to make every single signing be a success to compete and that's not gonna happen. Our problem as a club is we are not geared up to consistently challenge from the very top. In short: We need new owners before a change of Manager.
ibromurph:
It was Jexy that made me fully aware of the huge difference in wages mate.
I agree with most of what you say about Wenger, he's an excellent manager. I also agree that Rafa could of better spent a fair chunk of the cash he's had.
It's just that when you look at our steady progress under Rafa (before this season) and then take into account what our rivals budgets are, i'm not yet ready to join in with all the "Rafa can fuck off" calls.
[/quote]
Pretty much agree with that, tho why people want to make an issue of Rafa's signings that don't work out, when its the very nature of the game, is beyond me.
It's as though Rafa has to make every single signing be a success to compete and that's not gonna happen. Our problem as a club is we are not geared up to consistently challenge from the very top. In short: We need new owners before a change of Manager.
S
Squiggles
Guest
Look, if you spend £36M from a recouped £33M, it's *still*, surprisingly, £36M, and should be judged as such.
Sure if you're net send isn't high you cannot ask for a massive improvement - nobody did - but the very least you can ask for is to stay as a constant, to challenge for the league once more, to be there fighting until the end.
Not to fucking disintegrate as we have done. Not to find ourselves out of every meaningful competition by Christmas. Not to have to travel to fucking Romania to play a bunch of farmers and mechanics come January.
This season Rafa has paid the price for pissing away huge amounts of money in the last two years, and he should fall on his sword for it.
(Oh and great post SR. Rebel's lunacy needed addressing, and not that'll change the deranged cunt, it's still a cracking effort)
Sure if you're net send isn't high you cannot ask for a massive improvement - nobody did - but the very least you can ask for is to stay as a constant, to challenge for the league once more, to be there fighting until the end.
Not to fucking disintegrate as we have done. Not to find ourselves out of every meaningful competition by Christmas. Not to have to travel to fucking Romania to play a bunch of farmers and mechanics come January.
This season Rafa has paid the price for pissing away huge amounts of money in the last two years, and he should fall on his sword for it.
(Oh and great post SR. Rebel's lunacy needed addressing, and not that'll change the deranged cunt, it's still a cracking effort)
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=39473.msg1076371#msg1076371 date=1269525856]
ibromurph:
It was Jexy that made me fully aware of the huge difference in wages mate.
I agree with most of what you say about Wenger, he's an excellent manager. I also agree that Rafa could of spent a fair chunk of the cash he's had much better.
It's just that when you look at our steady progress under Rafa (before this season) and then take into account what our rivals budgets are, i'm not yet ready to join in with all the "Rafa can fuck off" calls.
[/quote]
You see when we move past the money argument as a stick to beat Rafa with, I think there's far more mileage in questioning his management and our progress on the field.
I think as a squad (talent-wise), we've improved steadily, but as a team, performance-wise, I'm not so sure.
In the league, we're up and down like a yo-yo. One season we're 5-10pts behind the leader threatening to push on, the next season we're 20pts behind again. This sort of yoyo-ing and the general lack of consistency is what concerns me most and why I have lost faith in Rafa. It's not like we've got a team of youngsters and we can put it down to inexperience.
We're a side that can beat Real Madrid one week, and then lose to Middlesbrough the next (with all the same players playing). That's been symptomatic of Rafa's tenure and I put a large part of it down to Rafa's tactics and philoosphy as a manager, which I just don't see changing anytime soon.
Being cautious, working hard, quantity over quality.. it's easy to do in one-off games.. glamour ties.. easy to gee up the players for that, you don't have to be a good motivator.. but over the course of a season, you need much more than that. You need consistent quality and I don't think i've ever seen us produce this under Rafa. (Save last year, after the OT win, where we went on a desperate run to claw back ground we'd lost because of the aforementioned reasons). And by then, it was too late.. and "our title challenge" was one that flattered to decieve as we never got within 5points of United in the end, till the final day when the title was won.
In many ways, I think that's been Rafa's reign in a nutshell.. flattering to decieve.
We won a CL, on the back off one of our worst league seasons in the last decade and after we had pretty much rested everyone before each game. Not to mention the final itself, where we were well-beaten for 114minutes, and required wondersaves and the lottery of penalties to get that wonderful trophy.
We also got to another European Cup Final on the back of another poor league season where (again) we had the advantage of resting players before each tie. In between that, we had the Gerrard final where we were saved at the death by a wonderstrike, and (again) required the lottery penalties to win the game. Great victories, but ones that hid the ugly truth that it had been poor league campaigns.
I think Rafa is a likeable enough person, and we as Liverpool fans, have been treated to some great adventures with him, and because of him. (Possibly the greatest, certainly most dramatic, FA & Euro Cup finals ever).
But those adventures were cup runs where luck played a more prominent role, but in the league we've barely got near challenging (never consistently).. It upsets me that 3 of his 6 season will have been complete "write-offs" (where we were out the title by October, and concentrating solely out cup competitions). That hurts, it really does.
Ultimately, the way I see it, is a Rafa Benitez managed Liverpool side will always do enough to keep us competitive in some format, and keep his 'apologists' satisfied and saying we're improving, but it will never do enough to actually win the league in England. Certainly not whilst top managers like Fergie, Wenger or Mourinho are around.
ibromurph:
It was Jexy that made me fully aware of the huge difference in wages mate.
I agree with most of what you say about Wenger, he's an excellent manager. I also agree that Rafa could of spent a fair chunk of the cash he's had much better.
It's just that when you look at our steady progress under Rafa (before this season) and then take into account what our rivals budgets are, i'm not yet ready to join in with all the "Rafa can fuck off" calls.
[/quote]
You see when we move past the money argument as a stick to beat Rafa with, I think there's far more mileage in questioning his management and our progress on the field.
I think as a squad (talent-wise), we've improved steadily, but as a team, performance-wise, I'm not so sure.
In the league, we're up and down like a yo-yo. One season we're 5-10pts behind the leader threatening to push on, the next season we're 20pts behind again. This sort of yoyo-ing and the general lack of consistency is what concerns me most and why I have lost faith in Rafa. It's not like we've got a team of youngsters and we can put it down to inexperience.
We're a side that can beat Real Madrid one week, and then lose to Middlesbrough the next (with all the same players playing). That's been symptomatic of Rafa's tenure and I put a large part of it down to Rafa's tactics and philoosphy as a manager, which I just don't see changing anytime soon.
Being cautious, working hard, quantity over quality.. it's easy to do in one-off games.. glamour ties.. easy to gee up the players for that, you don't have to be a good motivator.. but over the course of a season, you need much more than that. You need consistent quality and I don't think i've ever seen us produce this under Rafa. (Save last year, after the OT win, where we went on a desperate run to claw back ground we'd lost because of the aforementioned reasons). And by then, it was too late.. and "our title challenge" was one that flattered to decieve as we never got within 5points of United in the end, till the final day when the title was won.
In many ways, I think that's been Rafa's reign in a nutshell.. flattering to decieve.
We won a CL, on the back off one of our worst league seasons in the last decade and after we had pretty much rested everyone before each game. Not to mention the final itself, where we were well-beaten for 114minutes, and required wondersaves and the lottery of penalties to get that wonderful trophy.
We also got to another European Cup Final on the back of another poor league season where (again) we had the advantage of resting players before each tie. In between that, we had the Gerrard final where we were saved at the death by a wonderstrike, and (again) required the lottery penalties to win the game. Great victories, but ones that hid the ugly truth that it had been poor league campaigns.
I think Rafa is a likeable enough person, and we as Liverpool fans, have been treated to some great adventures with him, and because of him. (Possibly the greatest, certainly most dramatic, FA & Euro Cup finals ever).
But those adventures were cup runs where luck played a more prominent role, but in the league we've barely got near challenging (never consistently).. It upsets me that 3 of his 6 season will have been complete "write-offs" (where we were out the title by October, and concentrating solely out cup competitions). That hurts, it really does.
Ultimately, the way I see it, is a Rafa Benitez managed Liverpool side will always do enough to keep us competitive in some format, and keep his 'apologists' satisfied and saying we're improving, but it will never do enough to actually win the league in England. Certainly not whilst top managers like Fergie, Wenger or Mourinho are around.
T
the_khl
Guest
[quote author=Richey link=topic=39473.msg1076354#msg1076354 date=1269524121]
[quote author=KHL link=topic=39473.msg1076343#msg1076343 date=1269523293]
£3M - the entire Seasons transferbudget. And we're not even Rochdale.
£3M + recouped money on one of the best midfielders around which you of course you would've used much wiser - brought in loads of talent from around the globe all ready to take over Alonso's position from day one. (Bare in mind of course you've just spunked £17M on Johnson whom you reckon was a good buy so that leaves you with £16M)
Can't wait to hear your strategy on this one.
It's silly really. You ask for people to stop beeing so blinkered in their defense of Rafa when all you do is beeing the exact same in your criticism. Blinkered.
[/quote]
The summer's transfer budget was not 3 million. It was 36 million. That is what was spent was it not? Or did we buy 3 international players for just 3 million? Don't think we did.
Haha.. nice
You seem to be under some strange impression that the only money that counts is extra money that comes other than from player sales. That is not the case at all. Wherever it comes from, money was made available and spent, and those players are judged on their performance NOT on how their transfer fees were raised.
As I said before, it would have been dead lovely to have had loads of cash to bring in other players but we didn't have that so we had to deal with what we did have, which was still a sizeable amount, and IMO that was largely wasted. And for the record yes I do think that Johnson is a good player. I may or may not have paid that much money for him but I was trying to give Benitez the benefit of the doubt on that one.
Oh, and if you don't mind young man I would rather not take lessons on being blinkered from someone who essentially foams at the mouth with rage whenever the name Jose Mourinho is mentioned, who in all seriousness takes any chance he can to suggest that Michael Laudrup should be our new manager despite his extremely average record, who recently suggested that Daniel Agger should be our captain and who, when faced with a team last season who were collapsing defensively praised them for 'reinventing football'
[/quote]
"Young man"... someones pulling out the big insults eh?
Anyways you think £3M is enough on top of what you sell I think it's humiliating for a club of ours size and recent history. Would've thought any half decent poster would've agreed with that, but hey there you are..
Richey you are a right bellend at times. And a blinkered one too.
As you were.
[quote author=KHL link=topic=39473.msg1076343#msg1076343 date=1269523293]
£3M - the entire Seasons transferbudget. And we're not even Rochdale.
£3M + recouped money on one of the best midfielders around which you of course you would've used much wiser - brought in loads of talent from around the globe all ready to take over Alonso's position from day one. (Bare in mind of course you've just spunked £17M on Johnson whom you reckon was a good buy so that leaves you with £16M)
Can't wait to hear your strategy on this one.
It's silly really. You ask for people to stop beeing so blinkered in their defense of Rafa when all you do is beeing the exact same in your criticism. Blinkered.
[/quote]
The summer's transfer budget was not 3 million. It was 36 million. That is what was spent was it not? Or did we buy 3 international players for just 3 million? Don't think we did.
Haha.. nice
You seem to be under some strange impression that the only money that counts is extra money that comes other than from player sales. That is not the case at all. Wherever it comes from, money was made available and spent, and those players are judged on their performance NOT on how their transfer fees were raised.
As I said before, it would have been dead lovely to have had loads of cash to bring in other players but we didn't have that so we had to deal with what we did have, which was still a sizeable amount, and IMO that was largely wasted. And for the record yes I do think that Johnson is a good player. I may or may not have paid that much money for him but I was trying to give Benitez the benefit of the doubt on that one.
Oh, and if you don't mind young man I would rather not take lessons on being blinkered from someone who essentially foams at the mouth with rage whenever the name Jose Mourinho is mentioned, who in all seriousness takes any chance he can to suggest that Michael Laudrup should be our new manager despite his extremely average record, who recently suggested that Daniel Agger should be our captain and who, when faced with a team last season who were collapsing defensively praised them for 'reinventing football'
[/quote]
"Young man"... someones pulling out the big insults eh?
Anyways you think £3M is enough on top of what you sell I think it's humiliating for a club of ours size and recent history. Would've thought any half decent poster would've agreed with that, but hey there you are..
Richey you are a right bellend at times. And a blinkered one too.
As you were.
T
the_khl
Guest
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=39473.msg1076378#msg1076378 date=1269527646]
Look, if you spend £36M from a recouped £33M, it's *still*, surprisingly, £36M, and should be judged as such.
Sure if you're net send isn't high you cannot ask for a massive improvement - nobody did - but the very least you can ask for is to stay as a constant, to challenge for the league once more, to be there fighting until the end.
Not to fucking disintegrate as we have done. Not to find ourselves out of every meaningful competition by Christmas. Not to have to travel to fucking Romania to play a bunch of farmers and mechanics come January.
This season Rafa has paid the price for pissing away huge amounts of money in the last two years, and he should fall on his sword for it.
(Oh and great post SR. Rebel's lunacy needed addressing, and not that'll change the deranged cunt, it's still a cracking effort)
[/quote]
Couldn't disagree more.
How can you ever improve your squad when all you do is filling the gaps?
It's a shambels and I'm surprised to see how many posters on here that believes £3M should've sufficed.
Look, if you spend £36M from a recouped £33M, it's *still*, surprisingly, £36M, and should be judged as such.
Sure if you're net send isn't high you cannot ask for a massive improvement - nobody did - but the very least you can ask for is to stay as a constant, to challenge for the league once more, to be there fighting until the end.
Not to fucking disintegrate as we have done. Not to find ourselves out of every meaningful competition by Christmas. Not to have to travel to fucking Romania to play a bunch of farmers and mechanics come January.
This season Rafa has paid the price for pissing away huge amounts of money in the last two years, and he should fall on his sword for it.
(Oh and great post SR. Rebel's lunacy needed addressing, and not that'll change the deranged cunt, it's still a cracking effort)
[/quote]
Couldn't disagree more.
How can you ever improve your squad when all you do is filling the gaps?
It's a shambels and I'm surprised to see how many posters on here that believes £3M should've sufficed.
- Status
