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I think we all guessed this ....

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[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=40990.msg1136641#msg1136641 date=1279264958]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=40990.msg1136639#msg1136639 date=1279264776]
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=40990.msg1136637#msg1136637 date=1279262909]
[quote author=Brendan link=topic=40990.msg1136484#msg1136484 date=1279221534]
So is that what went wrong last year?

Benitez decided to train without a ball and just run about?
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eh, fair point. It has been mentioned before though (by thicko Babel) and would explain why we spend at least some portions of every season not being able to put two passes together.
[/quote]


there is no excuse for poor passing, none.
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Yup, hopefully we'll start to get a bit more free-flowing again.
[/quote]

exactly, poor passing is the result of being too rigid and static meaning there are less passing options and (imho) has little to do with training sans ball.
 
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=40990.msg1136647#msg1136647 date=1279266014]
exactly, poor passing is the result of being too rigid and static meaning there are less passing options and (imho) has little to do with training sans ball.
[/quote]

Although it could be argued, one may say quite successfully, that training with the ball would encourage players to learn where to be when the ball is going to be released.

The only viable alternative to that is blackboards & diagrams, & I suspect that most footy players arent that good with such things.
 
[quote author=bkwitche link=topic=40990.msg1136621#msg1136621 date=1279246039]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=40990.msg1136573#msg1136573 date=1279231247]
all well and good but the tail end of season before last liverpool were playing the best football in the country, so the training methods can't be 'that' bad.
[/quote]

My thoughts exactly.


[/quote]

Liverpool have allways been best at the end of the season under Rafa. We have started every season playing awful (even though we managed to scrap some results in the start of 1 or 2 of those seasons). Players looked out of form and out of shape. And as much as it is wonderful to see your team play good football towards the end of the season it feels a little bitter to know they only start playing like this when the league is well out of reach.
 
[quote author=FoxForceFive link=topic=40990.msg1136651#msg1136651 date=1279266403]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=40990.msg1136647#msg1136647 date=1279266014]
exactly, poor passing is the result of being too rigid and static meaning there are less passing options and (imho) has little to do with training sans ball.
[/quote]

Although it could be argued, one may say quite successfully, that training with the ball would encourage players to learn where to be when the ball is going to be released.

The only viable alternative to that is blackboards & diagrams, & I suspect that most footy players arent that good with such things.
[/quote]

We certainly did not practice free kicks or corners using a ball, oh or zonal marking either

regards
 
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=40990.msg1136655#msg1136655 date=1279266654]
[quote author=FoxForceFive link=topic=40990.msg1136651#msg1136651 date=1279266403]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=40990.msg1136647#msg1136647 date=1279266014]
exactly, poor passing is the result of being too rigid and static meaning there are less passing options and (imho) has little to do with training sans ball.
[/quote]

Although it could be argued, one may say quite successfully, that training with the ball would encourage players to learn where to be when the ball is going to be released.

The only viable alternative to that is blackboards & diagrams, & I suspect that most footy players arent that good with such things.
[/quote]

We certainly did not practice free kicks or corners using a ball, oh or zonal marking either

regards
[/quote]

I think we actually did practice zonal marking. We just did it wthout using a ball 😉
 
When I was playing Rugby under pretty decent coaches, we didn't touch a Rugby ball for weeks, but instead were put through military fitness exercises. Fitness has to be the main priority of pre-season training for nearly every sport, and I don't think these comments from Yossi go far in explaining why we had such a poor season.

Of course a player is going to prefer playing football to a lot of running, because they're not runners.

Doesn't mean they do not need it.
 
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=40990.msg1136706#msg1136706 date=1279273253]
When I was playing Rugby under pretty decent coaches, we didn't touch a Rugby ball for weeks, but instead were put through military fitness exercises. Fitness has to be the main priority of pre-season training for nearly every sport, and I don't think these comments from Yossi go far in explaining why we had such a poor season.

Of course a player is going to prefer playing football to a lot of running, because they're not runners.

Doesn't mean they do not need it.
[/quote]

i can understand fitness is a key issue here, however training without a ball for months as opposed to weeks might explain why some players don't look comfortable on the ball and try to pass it sideways or backwards in recent seasons. We've got young players who look terrified to have the ball for any duration.
 
I'm surprised no one here has referred to the part of Gerrard's book where he refers to Rafa getting on his back during training about him using his left foot more often and hitting the target when he took shots. I can't be bothered finding a link to it now, but I'm sure most of us on here will remember that excerpt from his book; it was allover the Net back then.

I'm sure he wasn't being encouraged to kick at an imaginary ball with his left foot or hit the target taking fresh air shots.

So, Ray Wilkins comes out to take a pot shot at us and we believe it as gospel truth. Interesting.

P.S. Great post Tinto.
 
[quote author=Scotino link=topic=40990.msg1136789#msg1136789 date=1279282682]
I'm surprised no one here has referred to the part of Gerrard's book where he refers to Rafa getting on his back during training about him using his left foot and hitting the target. I can't be bothered finding a link to it now, but I'm sure most of us on here will remember that.

I'm sure he wasn't being encouraged to kick at an imaginary ball with his left foot or hit the target taking fresh air shots.

So, Ray Wilkins comes out to take a pot shot at us and we believe it as gospel truth. Interesting.

By the way, great post Tinto.
[/quote]

i can't remember that in the book

then again i can't remember most of it, it was excruciatingly dull
 
[quote author=Insignificance link=topic=40990.msg1136652#msg1136652 date=1279266482]
[quote author=bkwitche link=topic=40990.msg1136621#msg1136621 date=1279246039]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=40990.msg1136573#msg1136573 date=1279231247]
all well and good but the tail end of season before last liverpool were playing the best football in the country, so the training methods can't be 'that' bad.
[/quote]

My thoughts exactly.


[/quote]

Liverpool have allways been best at the end of the season under Rafa. We have started every season playing awful (even though we managed to scrap some results in the start of 1 or 2 of those seasons). Players looked out of form and out of shape. And as much as it is wonderful to see your team play good football towards the end of the season it feels a little bitter to know they only start playing like this when the league is well out of reach.
[/quote]


Can Rafa Lead Liverpool To This Seasons title?
By Willie Gannon (Featured Columnist) on September 24, 2008 1,397

Liverpool beat Everton 2-0 to give them 14pts from six games and their best ever start to a Premier League season. But does this good run make Liverpool serious contenders for Manchester United's crown?

Liverpool's first match of the season was against Tranmere at Prenton Park on the 12th of July. 'Pool won 1-0 with a largely experimental side. Since then, in all competitions and including eight friendlies Liverpool have gone 17 games unbeaten. Scoring 23 and conceding a measly 7. Impressive statistics you'll agree, however the stats only tell half the story.

Liverpool's season proper began with a 0-0 draw away to Standard Liege in the final Qualifying round of the Champions League. It was a poor performance as Standard dictated the game from start to finish and if it wasn't for an in form 'Pepe Reina Liverpool could have lost two or three nil. Reina's heroics included a fantastic penalty save after the ref harshly awarded the spot kick for the ball seemingly striking Dossena on the chest.

The return leg two weeks later wasn't much better as Liverpool needed a goal in the last minute of extra time to beat the unlucky Belgians. In between the two Champions League matches Liverpool had beaten both Sunderland and Middlesbrough. But again luck played it's part.

Against Sunderland they were outplayed for large parts of the game and a late strike by Fernando Torres saw Liverpool start the new season with a win. Against Middlesbrough, Liverpool were 1-0 down with four minutes remaining and an own goal and an injury time and a Gerrard special won the game for Rafa's men.

This pattern has continued in all of Liverpool's matches to date. A hard earned win over bitter rivals United was also courtesy of an own goal and a fortuitous piece of defending by Ryan Giggs, gifting Liverpool the points.

Another poor second half performance against Marseille marred what should have been an easy night, especially as Stephen Gerrard had scored one of the greatest goals European football has ever seen.

Ironically last weekends 0-0 draw at home to Stoke was probably Liverpool's best footballing performance to date. They played well when they had the ball and tried to do the right things, finding plenty of space in wide areas but they created very few clear cut chances. And Stoke despite only having two attempts on goal they were well worth the point as they defended valiantly throughout.


That Stoke Game was where Gerrards 100th goal was wrongly dissalowed wasn't it?
 
[quote author=Fabio link=topic=40990.msg1136792#msg1136792 date=1279282777]
[quote author=Scotino link=topic=40990.msg1136789#msg1136789 date=1279282682]
I'm surprised no one here has referred to the part of Gerrard's book where he refers to Rafa getting on his back during training about him using his left foot and hitting the target. I can't be bothered finding a link to it now, but I'm sure most of us on here will remember that.

I'm sure he wasn't being encouraged to kick at an imaginary ball with his left foot or hit the target taking fresh air shots.

So, Ray Wilkins comes out to take a pot shot at us and we believe it as gospel truth. Interesting.

By the way, great post Tinto.
[/quote]

i can't remember that in the book

then again i can't remember most of it, it was excruciatingly dull
[/quote]

My mistake Fabio. It wasn't from his book, it was from an interview after his trial.

Here's the article:

http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528,11661_5583772,00.html

Gerrard hails Benitez's Methods

Liverpool captain Steven Gerrard believes Rafa Benitez operates on a 'different level' to other managers after revealing how he has adapted to his boss' methods.

Former Valencia chief Benitez arrived at Anfield in 2004 and has since guided the Reds to UEFA Champions League glory and an FA Cup win, while also transforming a struggling side into genuine Premier League title contenders.

England international Gerrard has been an inspirational on-field influence throughout the Spaniard's five-year tenure and has risen to a status as one of the best players in the world.

But the Liverpool skipper confesses that he found it difficult to adapt to Benitez's meticulous methods before realising that his manager's dedication is what is required for success.

"Even after five years with Rafa, I still feel I want to please him, that I want to impress him in every game I play," Gerrard told the Daily Mail.
Lucky

"The great managers are like that. There are a handful operating on a different level and I am lucky enough to play for two of them, Benitez and (England boss) Fabio Capello.

"It is when you see what they put in, some of the little things they spot, that you realise how hard they work. Rafa will make a point, and you'll be thinking, 'has this guy not got a life?' because it seems so minor, but it is what sets him apart.

"I can have a good game - tell you what, I'll be big-headed, say I've had a fantastic game - we've won 2-1 in the last minute and I've scored both.

"I come back into the dressing-room and I'm buzzing, bouncing off the walls, thinking, 'I feel good today', that is when Rafa comes up and starts talking about a throw-in when they changed the play and I pressed far too late. He'll say, 'if you want, we'll go out there and I'll show you'.

"Or you'll have a run of 10 games when you're in form and flying and he'll pop you a DVD of your recent play and it's broken up into sections good and bad. And you're thinking, 'hang on, bad? I didn't do anything wrong'. But you'll watch it and you're out of position in one match, or you pressed late or you let a man go at a set-piece. You wonder when the guy sleeps.

Danger

"At first when he did things like that, I'd be asking, 'has he not watched my last 150 games for Liverpool?' There is a danger that you think he has it in for you because he pulls you so much.

"When he arrived, he would keep saying to me, 'left foot, left foot' or I'd shoot and he would say, 'hit the target' and I'm thinking, 'look, mate, I'm trying to hit the target'.

"I would say to people, 'I'm 26 - if he doesn't think my left foot's working now, it's never going to work' but then a few weeks later I scored with my left and he came up with a little smile and said, 'lucky goal today, left foot and it hit the target' and then the penny dropped.

"Finally, I realised it was the way he helped push you on and as a player, you either recognised it or fought it and, with these guys, if you fight it there is only one winner."
 
[quote author=Scotino link=topic=40990.msg1136789#msg1136789 date=1279282682]
I'm surprised no one here has referred to the part of Gerrard's book where he refers to Rafa getting on his back during training about him using his left foot more often and hitting the target when he took shots. I can't be bothered finding a link to it now, but I'm sure most of us on here will remember that excerpt from his book; it was allover the Net back then.

I'm sure he wasn't being encouraged to kick at an imaginary ball with his left foot or hit the target taking fresh air shots.

So, Ray Wilkins comes out to take a pot shot at us and we believe it as gospel truth. Interesting.

P.S. Great post Tinto.
[/quote]

Or the hundreds of training pics that show a ball being used.

Obviously we used the ball less in training for Yossi and Ryan to make these comments. To assume that we didn't use a ball at all is just stupid.
 
Ah fair enough scotininininio. Although in the context of what hes talkign about he seems to be talking about either in training or in game or post match analysis.

Whether we use the ball a bit in training or not at all is irrelevant for me. Surely there is a need to train loads with the ball and practice passing, shooting and other drills outside of practice matches?
 
There's nothing too strange here. A lot of coaches focus on fitness pre season, and I've seen it plenty of times, where ball time is held off into the distance, almost the "good stuff" that comes after you've got fit. It's a pretty widespread belief no? That said, I could see Rafa taking it too far.....and certainly would explain the lack of finesse on the ball early in the season..
 
[quote author=Fabio link=topic=40990.msg1136819#msg1136819 date=1279284284]
Ah fair enough scotininininio. Although in the context of what hes talkign about he seems to be talking about either in training or in game or post match analysis.

Whether we use the ball a bit in training or not at all is irrelevant for me. Surely there is a need to train loads with the ball and practice passing, shooting and other drills outside of practice matches?
[/quote]

Little Scotino?
 
yeah... 'cause we were shite under Benitez... never won wnything... never played any decent football... blah, blah, blah....

Fuck me... just think what a great manager Benitez could have been had he ever got the team training with a ball...

... the most sensational.... inspirational.... this is what we call.... the muppet show.
 
If memory serves me correctly, when Rafa took over a lot of players said they were doing more training with the ball than they did under Houllier.
 
If you go back far enough you'll find we used to train without players. It was just the coach on his own in a sensory deprivation chamber.
 
[quote author=gene hughes link=topic=40990.msg1136962#msg1136962 date=1279304779]
If you go back far enough you'll find we used to train without players. It was just the coach on his own in a sensory deprivation chamber.
[/quote]

;D ;D ;D :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: ;D ;D ;D
 
[quote author=Scotino link=topic=40990.msg1136789#msg1136789 date=1279282682]


I'm sure he wasn't being encouraged to kick at an imaginary ball with his left foot or hit the target taking fresh air shots.

[/quote]

I think Robbie Keane practiced like that.
 
I think this is a standard put-down for a player when he moves away from a club where he did not like the manager in charge.

I'm pretty sure i read something along the lines of "We now train with balls" when Benitez first took over, taking an obvious dig at Gerard Houlier.

I'm surprised this thread has got the attention it has gotten.
 
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