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Hmmmm... Frustrating

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Ngog should be a 4th or 5th backup striker playing in League cup games.
Playing him as a lone striker at Emirates is simply suicidal and not helping the player at all.
Arsenal were there for the taking, Rafa did the exact opposite. Where is Riera? Maxi clearly lacks match fitness.
Thats the most frustrating but I wasnt surprised in the slightest.
We only had one real chance with Babel. Simply not good enough.
 
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=38885.msg1053564#msg1053564 date=1265888358]
Ngog is brutually slow?
[/quote]

I'd say he's pretty slow LTW. No acceleration and average top speed from what I've seen.
 
I think Maxi is still finding his feet in the Premier League, and being played out of position doesn't help. I don't know what Rafa's logic was in playing him at the Emirates instead of Riera. Although Riera isn't the greatest left winger in the world, he is a genuine left winger and we always seem to have a better balance in attack when he is playing.

My reaction when Arsenal scored was that we had it coming and didn't really deserve anything better out of a match in which Arsenal were poor and even with our weakened side, we could have beaten them if we had played more enterprising football.
 
Some very good points.

It was such a dreadful game to watch. I was behind time on Sky +, and even when I started fast forwarding through moments of the game, it looked like we were still looked painfully slow.

A couple of points I picked up on in x6 speed, was our complete lack of penetration. We have the option to play in little triangles, but seemingly lack the ability to play a ball in front of a team mate, and insist on passing *at* them or behind them. When moving forward, we rush to play said ball, instead of moving into the space and then pass and I think the majority can be blamed on poor decision-making.

As mentioned by Brendan, an injection of pace within our team could potentially add a different dimension to our game … in which any dimension would help. And N’Gog looked like a boy playing with men and has a real tendency to get the ball stuck in his feet. ALL the time.
 
So in summary, we simply are not good enough when Torres is not fit.

After 6 years a manager should be able to cope with losing a player or two to injury. We never seem to be able too.

We have fallen sharply from last year. Utd went there went behind and stormed back.

Chelsea roasted Arsenal home and away.

We played for a draw and got beat.

Arsenal were there for the taking and we fluffed our lines again.

I didn't expect a win but seeing how poor ARsenal were I thought we could and should have won it.

City game now is mega but I think we'll lose that too. The players better prove me wrong or its going to be a long summer.
 
[quote author=Dreambeliever link=topic=38885.msg1053626#msg1053626 date=1265898135]
So in summary, we simply are not good enough when Torres is not fit.

After 6 years a manager should be able to cope with losing a player or two to injury. We never seem to be able too.

We have fallen sharply from last year. Utd went there went behind and stormed back.

Chelsea roasted Arsenal home and away.

We played for a draw and got beat.

Arsenal were there for the taking and we fluffed our lines again.

I didn't expect a win but seeing how poor ARsenal were I thought we could and should have won it.

City game now is mega but I think we'll lose that too. The players better prove me wrong or its going to be a long summer.
[/quote]


*sighs*
 
[quote author=Dreambeliever link=topic=38885.msg1053626#msg1053626 date=1265898135]
So in summary, we simply are not good enough when Torres is not fit.

After 6 years a manager should be able to cope with losing a player or two to injury. We never seem to be able too.

We have fallen sharply from last year. Utd went there went behind and stormed back.

Chelsea roasted Arsenal home and away.

We played for a draw and got beat.

Arsenal were there for the taking and we fluffed our lines again.

I didn't expect a win but seeing how poor ARsenal were I thought we could and should have won it.

City game now is mega but I think we'll lose that too. The players better prove me wrong or its going to be a long summer.
[/quote]

i hope so because i wanted to work on my tan
 
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=38885.msg1053564#msg1053564 date=1265888358]
Ngog is brutually slow?
[/quote]

Ngognito.
 
Re 'pace'...

I think an awful lot of this has to do with the way we're currently playing. Off the back of a dreadful few months, over the last 6/7 games we've slowly tried to get confidence back, win a few games, and keep clean sheets. The result of which has seen us play some horribly unadventurous stuff in attack and going forward. We look a touch predictable, extremely negative at times, and far too often pass up on the opportunity to take the game on. I can see the rationale behind this - Rafa's obviously made a determined effort to ensure we keep our shape better as a side post-Reading, and as such we're making far more of an effort to be steely and less open. All fine.

It limits our attacking thrust though. We're trying to build our confidence slowly, and hopefully after finding our feet for a few games, the increased confidence will see us go at it a touch more. It's been the modus operandi in previous seasons, I think it's the plan this time too.

It depends on your definition of pace really. Of course it'd be great to have both Ronaldo's, Henry, Essien and a few others in our line-up, but we don't, and neither do 99% of other teams. Give me the option of having a Cisse, a Valencia or a Kuyt on the right wing, and I'd go for the latter everytime. Of course pace frightens defenders, but better footballers frighten them more. Man City spent 70M on 3 strikers this summer - Adebayor, Tevez, Santa Cruz - Not one of them is quick, but they're all good players.

And exactly the sort of players that would help us, because they're clever, they're matchwinners, and they'd make a difference. With 10 minutes left last night, in search of an equaliser, we needed more great footballers in our side, not someone who can sprint like fuck. If you took Maxi, N'gog and Lucas out of our team the other night, and replaced them with Adebayor, Robinho and Ireland we would be exactly the same pacewise, but we'd be a better team and would have greater chance of winning the game. Because they move the ball quicker, they think quicker, and they play better with those around them.

Pace isn't about beating a full-back. Who, apart from Stoke score regularly from crosses anyway? Pace is about speed of ball and thought. We scored an average of 4 goals towards the end of last season. Teams couldn't live with us. The ball was being pinged about everywhere - we were incisive, daring, confident, and one step ahead of the opposition. Raw pace-wise we were exactly the same as we are now. In fact if you stick Alonso in there, we were probably slower in terms of running speed. The best example of this I felt was the Villa game at home. They hardly looked like the touched the ball against us in 90 minutes, and I still don't feel like we were going at it full throttle. We were so high on confidence that the ball moved quicker than I'd ever seen it in our time under Rafa.

And that's what's missing this year. Not someone who can do the 100 metres in 11 seconds.

I take Del (I think)'s point from yesterday that the thrust of a Rooney or Essien frightens defenders - The ability to ghost past players at will will always intimidate opposing players. But good footballers - Alonso, Arshavin, Fabregas, Joe Cole, Robinho, etc etc worry defenders just as much. We're not losing and performing poorly because we don't have speedy footballers in our team, we're shy of confidence and shy of top class footballers more than anything.

Pace of player is about 5% of our problem.
 
No, I won't go bombastically OTT and quack on about 'pace' as some panacea, but I am convinced that we need some injecting into at least two positions in our team

We are like crimson bollards at times, and the outlet that a nippy player gives us can be overestimated when we have a surplus, but can never be underestimated when we have the slowest squad in the Top 6
 
[quote author=Brendan link=topic=38885.msg1053776#msg1053776 date=1265931640]
No, I won't go bombastically OTT and quack on about 'pace' as some panacea, but I am convinced that we need some injecting into at least two positions in our team

We are like crimson bollards at times, and the outlet that a nippy player gives us can be overestimated when we have a surplus, but can never be underestimated when we have the slowest squad in the Top 6
[/quote]

All fair.
 
[quote author=Brendan link=topic=38885.msg1053786#msg1053786 date=1265932039]
Every time I talk about pace I feel like I'm turning into the Spide

'Attacking full-backs'

Arf
[/quote]

Ha.
 
He's been getting quite narky recently, but I console him by reassuring him that he is not *quite* alone in his love of Ryan Babel

Tough gig, I know
 
He's gone seriously defeatist I've noticed.

That '20 years since our last title and my last ride' thread was eye-bleeding stuff.

Cheer up Neil!
 
It's impossible to be annoyed with the spide, he's great

Even if one was to stack up all of his ill-advised comments and realise that you were closer to the moon than earth, it's hard to get the hump with him
 
[quote author=Brendan link=topic=38885.msg1053798#msg1053798 date=1265933082]
It's impossible to be annoyed with the spide, he's great

Even if one was to stack up all of his ill-advised comments and realise that you were closer to the moon than earth, it's hard to get the hump with him
[/quote]

True.

He's like the anti-Le Chacal in that sense.
 
I really don't understand your Lech hatred either

Although admittedly, I did drive him off the site once apparently

For about two hours
 
[quote author=Brendan link=topic=38885.msg1053803#msg1053803 date=1265933478]
I really don't understand your Lech hatred either

Although admittedly, I did drive him off the site once apparently

For about two hours
[/quote]

I fucking hate him.
 
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=38885.msg1053759#msg1053759 date=1265929296]
And that's what's missing this year. Not someone who can do the 100 metres in 11 seconds.
[/quote]

Adebayor can do about 90 yards in 9 seconds as we saw with his celebration against Arsenal. He has pace.
Tevez isn't the fastest but he can beat a man still and more importantly he runs into that box or past his man at his full speed.
And Roque Santa Cruz is by no means slow either. Although thats not really necessary with his style of play, he is a CF who is great in the air.

And we lack pace on the wings and of course up top when Torres is out. Worst of all a decent number of our pace challenged players have trouble running their fastest with the ball or being able to trap the ball and continue running while at their top pace which really makes counterattacking almost pointless.

Watching us try to beat Arsenal on the counter attack like the big 2 teams had (Rafa said he was going to copy them) was awful. I knew we were gonna lose and wasn't excited about the game as soon as I heard it.
 
[quote author=Assulin link=topic=38885.msg1053823#msg1053823 date=1265937744]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=38885.msg1053759#msg1053759 date=1265929296]
And that's what's missing this year. Not someone who can do the 100 metres in 11 seconds.
[/quote]

Adebayor can do about 90 yards in 9 seconds as we saw with his celebration against Arsenal. He has pace.
Tevez isn't the fastest but he can beat a man still and more importantly he runs into that box or past his man at his full speed.
And Roque Santa Cruz is by no means slow either. Although thats not really necessary with his style of play, he is a CF who is great in the air.

And we lack pace on the wings and of course up top when Torres is out. Worst of all a decent number of our pace challenged players have trouble running their fastest with the ball or being able to trap the ball and continue running while at their top pace which really makes counterattacking almost pointless.

Watching us try to beat Arsenal on the counter attack like the big 2 teams had (Rafa said he was going to copy them) was awful. I knew we were gonna lose and wasn't excited about the game as soon as I heard it.


[/quote]

N'gog's as fast as Adebayor. Tevez is no faster than Kuyt. And Roque Santa Cruz is slower than erosion.

Had Johnson and Torres been fit, we'd have made things an awful lot more difficult for Arsenal.
 
Torres is world class of course thats the case. And Gj might have helped going one way but he hurts going the other way for us.

Adebayor is tons faster than N'gog did you not see that celebration. Adebayor celebration
Tevez is faster than Kuyt and your blind to say otherwise (and more importantly better at running with the ball at a high speed)
and RSC im not gonna argue about because honestly i haven't watched enough I just looked at the descriptions of his playing style when he signed for MC and Blackburn. Also a couple utubes.
 
Whilst I agree with Ryan's sentiments.. that pace isn't everything (you obv need quality with it).. and the team need to move the ball quicker, I have to say I've found his judgement of individual players' pace quite shocking throughout this thread. No one said you had to have Cisse-like speed, but do you need a bit of quickness over 10 yards which is exactly what players like Tevez have (besides the fact that he dribbles with the ball almost as fast as he runs without it!).

When we talk about pace, we're not talking about Usain Bolt Ryan.. saying that United don't have pace or that Valenica 'isn't all that' when it comes to pace seems to indicate that you think everyone who doesn't do the 100m in under 10secs is slow which is nonsense. What we are really talking about is a *burst of pace* over 10-20metres.

Rooney has it. Torres has it. Gerrard does. That list you made.. "Adebayor.. Arshavin, Fabregas, Joe Cole, Robinho, etc etc".. they all have it.

Your Lucas', N'gogs' and Kuyts' simply don't have that *burst of pace*.. they're very one-paced footballers who don't surprise nor scare defenders with the threat of getting in behind.
 
[quote author=ibromurph link=topic=38885.msg1053828#msg1053828 date=1265941380]
Whilst I agree with Ryan's sentiments.. that pace isn't everything (you obv need quality with it).. and the team need to move the ball quicker, I have to say I've found his judgement of individual players' pace quite shocking throughout this thread. No one said you had to have Cisse-like speed, but do you need a bit of quickness over 10 yards which is exactly what players like Tevez have (besides the fact that he dribbles with the ball almost as fast as he runs without it!).

When we talk about pace, we're not talking about Usain Bolt Ryan.. saying that United don't have pace or that Valenica 'isn't all that' when it comes to pace seems to indicate that you think everyone who doesn't do the 100m in under 10secs is slow which is nonsense. What we are really talking about is a *burst of pace* over 10-20metres.

Rooney has it. Torres has it. Gerrard does. That list you made.. "Adebayor.. Arshavin, Fabregas, Joe Cole, Robinho, etc etc".. they all have it.

Your Lucas', N'gogs' and Kuyts' simply don't have that *burst of pace*.. they're very one-paced footballers who don't surprise nor scare defenders with the threat of getting in behind.
[/quote]

The "Valencia isn't all that" bit was in reference to him as a player, not his pace.

I'll reiterate: With Torres, Gerrard, Johnson, and a couple of others in our 11 - we've got about the same amount of pace as nearly any of our rivals. We move the ball slower, and have less quality footballers than them currently though. We don't need quicker players, we need better players.

And no everyone, Tevez isn't fucking "quick".
 
[quote author=Brendan link=topic=38885.msg1053798#msg1053798 date=1265933082]
It's impossible to be annoyed with the spide, he's great

Even if one was to stack up all of his ill-advised comments and realise that you were closer to the moon than earth, it's hard to get the hump with him
[/quote]

an awful lot of my ill advised comments actually end up panning out not because of anything clever but because it isn't or wasn't rocket science.

carra at center back
gerrard as the second striker
quick attacking fullbacks - the purchase of johnson
fucking off owen before its too late

I only the thing I constantly went on about and 'kind of' regret were my didi comments because look what we have in central midfield now, but in my defense I never said didi was rubbish I always thought he was a top holding midfielder I just said his defensive line was too deep (and it was) but that had more to do with the defenders. alonso was absolutely ideal because he could sit deep to protect the defeners and STILL hurt teams.

as for the pace issue I think if you have it in your fullbacks and in your striker/s you can pretty much get away with it everywhere else.
 
Tevez and Adebayor are quick enough. You don't need to be lightning to have pace. What you want is players to be quick enough so that the opposition has to be lightning to catch up if they get past 'em. Take Arsenal's midfield for example - Diaby and Song aren't what you'd call pacey players, but they can take a touch past players and give themselves the time and space to do something with it.
 
[quote author=keniget link=topic=38885.msg1053863#msg1053863 date=1265960516]
Tevez and Adebayor are quick enough. You don't need to be lightning to have pace. What you want is players to be quick enough so that the opposition has to be lightning to catch up if they get past 'em. Take Arsenal's midfield for example - Diaby and Song aren't what you'd call pacey players, but they can take a touch past players and give themselves the time and space to do something with it.
[/quote]

exactly, there is a big difference between having lightning pace (babel, cisse, walcott) and have pace with the ball under control.
 
Fabregas isn't what one would typically call 'pacey'.. but he has a good burst of pace like all the Arsenal players (albeit at the lower end of the scale).. which means once he gets in behind you, you have to be lightning to catch up. (incidentally, it's only this season i've noticed that his pace really seems to have increased as well as his strength on the ball - previously I thought he had Lucas-like pace/strength)..

Fabregas Vs Tottenham

This goal typifies what i'm/Keni is saying. Ignoring the quality of the dribble/finish, Lucas could never do this as he's simply not quick enough to get away from players.. nor Kuyt.. nor N'Gog.. their acceleration away from players is dreadful, so even if they get in behind you, it's likely you'll catch them up.
 
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