Greatest Liverpool player ever

[lechop]

[quote author=Modo link=topic=46291.msg1372707#msg1372707 date=1312139363]
[quote author=Fabio link=topic=46291.msg1372697#msg1372697 date=1312137032]
Barnes didn't win us the title though did he?

He had a better manager and better squad around him than gerrard has had. You could argue easily enough gerrard has won us finals on his own or made incredible impacts through his dynamism

You're effectively saying because gerrard hasn't won a title he's worse than digger.

Fat ronaldo was overrated because he didn't win a cl.
[/quote]

89/90 - last time we won.
Barnes scored 22 goals in the league, remember this is a left winger we're talking about. He scored 28 goals in all competitions.
If he didn't win us the league that year who did?
Football writers player of the year in 1990?
Digger...
[/quote]


Swap Barnes in his prime for Gerrard and we wouldn't have won anything more over the past ten years. The fact Digger had the fortune not to be surrounded by flotsam when he played means nothing. Gerrard might reasonably have hoped averaging a goal every other game from midfield (and being FW player of year) was doing his bit to get us a title.

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=lechop link=topic=46291.msg1372727#msg1372727 date=1312141642]
[quote author=Modo link=topic=46291.msg1372707#msg1372707 date=1312139363]
[quote author=Fabio link=topic=46291.msg1372697#msg1372697 date=1312137032]
Barnes didn't win us the title though did he?

He had a better manager and better squad around him than gerrard has had. You could argue easily enough gerrard has won us finals on his own or made incredible impacts through his dynamism

You're effectively saying because gerrard hasn't won a title he's worse than digger.

Fat ronaldo was overrated because he didn't win a cl.
[/quote]

89/90 - last time we won.
Barnes scored 22 goals in the league, remember this is a left winger we're talking about. He scored 28 goals in all competitions.
If he didn't win us the league that year who did?
Football writers player of the year in 1990?
Digger...
[/quote]


Swap Barnes in his prime for Gerrard and we wouldn't have won anything more over the past ten years. The fact Digger had the fortune not to be surrounded by flotsam when he played means nothing. Gerrard might reasonably have hoped averaging a goal every other game from midfield (and being FW player of year) was doing his bit to get us a title.
[/quote]

for the sake of arguement in the season where we came second we had rieira at left midfield.

 

[Woland]

Gerrard is better than Barnes. I had a season ticket then and now and there's no argument for me.

Barnes won player of the year twice... But it's always won by a Championship winning player so it's not fair to use that stat for individuals. Gerrard's team has been gash for the most part, and he won us a Champion's League - which is pretty fucking awesome.

I also think Gerrard at his peak was better than Dalglish, but he'll never get the same kind of adulation because of the lack of titles.

 

[Fabio]

Re: Re: Greatest Liverpool player ever

[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=46291.msg1372728#msg1372728 date=1312141885]
[quote author=lechop link=topic=46291.msg1372727#msg1372727 date=1312141642]
[quote author=Modo link=topic=46291.msg1372707#msg1372707 date=1312139363]
[quote author=Fabio link=topic=46291.msg1372697#msg1372697 date=1312137032]
Barnes didn't win us the title though did he?

He had a better manager and better squad around him than gerrard has had. You could argue easily enough gerrard has won us finals on his own or made incredible impacts through his dynamism

You're effectively saying because gerrard hasn't won a title he's worse than digger.

Fat ronaldo was overrated because he didn't win a cl.
[/quote]

89/90 - last time we won.
Barnes scored 22 goals in the league, remember this is a left winger we're talking about. He scored 28 goals in all competitions.
If he didn't win us the league that year who did?
Football writers player of the year in 1990?
Digger...
[/quote]


Swap Barnes in his prime for Gerrard and we wouldn't have won anything more over the past ten years. The fact Digger had the fortune not to be surrounded by flotsam when he played means nothing. Gerrard might reasonably have hoped averaging a goal every other game from midfield (and being FW player of year) was doing his bit to get us a title.
[/quote]

for the sake of arguement in the season where we came second we had rieira at left midfield.
[/quote]

Compared to when barnes won it when we had fucking amazing cms. And strikers. And defenders. If we had a great lw like barnes when we came second we would have won the league. But by contrast, if we had barnes but no gerrard we wouldn't have even finished 2nd imo

 

[Modo]

[quote author=lechop link=topic=46291.msg1372727#msg1372727 date=1312141642]
[quote author=Modo link=topic=46291.msg1372707#msg1372707 date=1312139363]
[quote author=Fabio link=topic=46291.msg1372697#msg1372697 date=1312137032]
Barnes didn't win us the title though did he?

He had a better manager and better squad around him than gerrard has had. You could argue easily enough gerrard has won us finals on his own or made incredible impacts through his dynamism

You're effectively saying because gerrard hasn't won a title he's worse than digger.

Fat ronaldo was overrated because he didn't win a cl.
[/quote]

89/90 - last time we won.
Barnes scored 22 goals in the league, remember this is a left winger we're talking about. He scored 28 goals in all competitions.
If he didn't win us the league that year who did?
Football writers player of the year in 1990?
Digger...
[/quote]


Swap Barnes in his prime for Gerrard and we wouldn't have won anything more over the past ten years. The fact Digger had the fortune not to be surrounded by flotsam when he played means nothing. Gerrard might reasonably have hoped averaging a goal every other game from midfield (and being FW player of year) was doing his bit to get us a title.
[/quote]

The thing is, I haven't even mentioned the countless assists Barnes provided to Rushie, Aldo and Beardsley.
I'm a big fan of Gerrard's and he's by no means is he less of a player for being the 3rd best player for me but watching Barnes play in his peak was fucking magical and that's the year I really started supporting Liverpool.

Barnes is the reason I fell in love with Liverpool.

 

[Modo]

Re: Re: Greatest Liverpool player ever

[quote author=Fabio link=topic=46291.msg1372734#msg1372734 date=1312142311]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=46291.msg1372728#msg1372728 date=1312141885]
[quote author=lechop link=topic=46291.msg1372727#msg1372727 date=1312141642]
[quote author=Modo link=topic=46291.msg1372707#msg1372707 date=1312139363]
[quote author=Fabio link=topic=46291.msg1372697#msg1372697 date=1312137032]
Barnes didn't win us the title though did he?

He had a better manager and better squad around him than gerrard has had. You could argue easily enough gerrard has won us finals on his own or made incredible impacts through his dynamism

You're effectively saying because gerrard hasn't won a title he's worse than digger.

Fat ronaldo was overrated because he didn't win a cl.
[/quote]

89/90 - last time we won.
Barnes scored 22 goals in the league, remember this is a left winger we're talking about. He scored 28 goals in all competitions.
If he didn't win us the league that year who did?
Football writers player of the year in 1990?
Digger...
[/quote]


Swap Barnes in his prime for Gerrard and we wouldn't have won anything more over the past ten years. The fact Digger had the fortune not to be surrounded by flotsam when he played means nothing. Gerrard might reasonably have hoped averaging a goal every other game from midfield (and being FW player of year) was doing his bit to get us a title.
[/quote]

for the sake of arguement in the season where we came second we had rieira at left midfield.
[/quote]

Compared to when barnes won it when we had fucking amazing cms. And strikers. And defenders. If we had a great lw like barnes when we came second we would have won the league. But by contrast, if we had barnes but no gerrard we wouldn't have even finished 2nd imo
[/quote]
That is so unfair. You're making it sound as if Gerrard was the reason we finished 2nd that season. Have you forgot that he was injured for like 8 weeks of that season.
Have you forgot the contributions of Alonso who probably had his best season at LFC, Benayoun who won us a couple of games and Torres who scored 18 goals that season.
Also, Mascherano, Kuyt, Hyypia and Carra. We had a great fucking team.

 

[Fabio]

And gerrard never assisted, or set up opportunites for baros/cisse/crouch/bellamy etc to fuck up? Barnes played with some of the most clinical finishers in the games history. If gerrard had i'm sure his assist figures would stand up to comparison


Versatility is also a major factor. how many players can excel in as many positions as gerrard has? CM, DM, AM, RW, off the striker, RB etc. He's played admirably in them all and could jusitifiably be selected for all

 

[Modo]

Can I be jerk for a second?

OK here goes:

Versatility didn't win us the league

Back to sanity:

Barnes could play on both wings, in the middle and behind the striker.

 

[Fabio]

Re: Re: Greatest Liverpool player ever

[quote author=Modo link=topic=46291.msg1372738#msg1372738 date=1312142812]

That is so unfair. You're making it sound as if Gerrard was the reason we finished 2nd that season. Have you forgot that he was injured for like 8 weeks of that season.
Have you forgot the contributions of Alonso who probably had his best season at LFC, Benayoun who won us a couple of games and Torres who scored 18 goals that season.
Also, Mascherano, Kuyt, Hyypia and Carra. We had a great fucking team.
[/quote]

I agree we had a good team, but the gerrard torres partnership was integral to that title attempt. Everyone plays their part (as they did in barnes day), but how many times without gerrard did we look poor?

We've beat some great teams without him dont' get me wrong, but when he plays EVERYTHING goes through him. When he's on the pitch everyone looks at him to do something and everyone gives him the ball. The only player to really have not done this was alonso, who had just come off the back of his own turbulent summer and had the desire to perform.

 

[Woland]

In 1989 when we were beaten to the title by Arsenal, the leading scorer in the league was Alan Smith. Alan fucking Smith. He'd be in the Championship now. Steve Hodge was considered one of the better players in the league. Steve fucking Hodge.

My point is that this isn't like for like.

 

[Modo]

[quote author=Krump link=topic=46291.msg1372744#msg1372744 date=1312143259]
In 1989 when we were beaten to the title by Arsenal, the leading scorer in the league was Alan Smith. Alan fucking Smith. He'd be in the Championship now. Steve Hodge was considered one of the better players in the league. Steve fucking Hodge.

My point is that this isn't like for like.
[/quote]

You mean 1991?
Also we had an average age of about 30 that season. Just been through Hillsborough, Kenny leaving. It was turbulent.

 

[Woland]

[quote author=Modo link=topic=46291.msg1372746#msg1372746 date=1312143339]
[quote author=Krump link=topic=46291.msg1372744#msg1372744 date=1312143259]
In 1989 when we were beaten to the title by Arsenal, the leading scorer in the league was Alan Smith. Alan fucking Smith. He'd be in the Championship now. Steve Hodge was considered one of the better players in the league. Steve fucking Hodge.

My point is that this isn't like for like.
[/quote]

You mean 1991?
Also we had an average age of about 30 that season. Just been through Hillsborough, Kenny leaving. It was turbulent.
[/quote]

No

 

[Fabio]

Steven Gerrard has consistently proven to be one of the best midfielders in the world year on year.

He was voted number 2 in the players who shook the kop vote (behind kenny but 3 ahead of barnes)

Pele said he was the best in the world

Zidane said the same

He is the most complete midfielder for this generation

All of these are factoids (besides the last one, which is an opinion)

 

[LarryHagman]

I'd have Gerrard #1 these days. Kenny #2, Barnes top 10, maybe top 5.

 

[Modo]

[quote author=LarryHagman link=topic=46291.msg1372789#msg1372789 date=1312155478]
I'd have Gerrard #1 these days. Kenny #2, Barnes top 10, maybe top 5.
[/quote]
Ha ha yeah right.

 

[keniget]

Is this primarily about footballing ability or him being a role model as a black player?

 

[Modo]

Good question Ken.

It's not about race, it's about Barnes being the better player.
Sure Barnes played in a time when they still threw bananas at black players (see the Tommy Smith thread).
But, that is more about him being mentally strong.

Barnes was a genius on the pitch.

My question is:

How appreciated is John Barnes?

We're talking about a midfielder who scored over a hundred goals from the left wing, twice as many assists probably, 75 goals in his first four seasons, won us two league titles and won three prestigious individual awards (1 PPTY, 2 FWPY).

Why I'm asking? Well if someone posts that John effing barnes is only among the top ten maybe top five, it raises questions? I mean who was better?

Barnes was excellent between 87 and 91, but injuries more or less ended his career in 92.
I'm afraid the last few years he played for us and his performances for England might play a part in how he is seen by some. But between 87-91 Barnes was our main player. To bad he never got to perform for us in Europe during those days.

 

[Whaddapie]

[quote author=Modo link=topic=46291.msg1372618#msg1372618 date=1312120623]
It's because the younger generation haven't seen Barnes play.

Two player in Liverpool history have won the FWA Footballer of the Year twice.

Can you guess who? A hint, one is the best player we've had and the other is the 2nd best player we've ever had.
[/quote]

I have seen John Barnes play, Modo. And he was often magnificent, and sometimes simply unplayable.

But Steven Gerrard is the better player.

Stevie G is no worse than 3rd place all time for the Reds, with Graeme Souness being the other member of the top 3, with Billy Liddel being touted by too many as an all-time great to discount, so there's your top 4.

Digger would certainly be in the converasation for 5 through 10, but the likes of Hansen, Keegan, Rush, Lawrenson, Hughes, etc... would also be in that discussion.

You talked about Digger playing left, right, center and behind the striker... True. And if you add full back (marking Kaka out of the f#$!ing game in extra-time in Instanbul, remember?) to that list, you've got Gerrard's range.

The midfield when Digger won his awards included McMahon, Whelan, Houghton, etc... Gerrard led us to the European cup with Djimi Traore and Vladimir Smicer regular starters, on a team that finished 30+ points off the champions.

Digger was great, mate. I loved him too. But Steven, at this point, is probably second only to the one who will never be overtaken.

 

[Modo]

Good post and I respect your opinion just one thing.

The midfield when Digger won his awards included McMahon, Whelan, Houghton, etc... Gerrard led us to the European cup with Djimi Traore and Vladimir Smicer regular starters, on a team that finished 30+ points off the champions.

You make it sound like McMahon, Whelan and Houghton were some kind of dream team.
They weren't.

I also think you're cherry picking with regards to Traoré and Smicer. First of all, Smicer was a very talented player albeit injured most of the time. Second, our midfield that night had three top class players in Hamann, Garcia and Alonso. Of course as whole that team wasn't even close to being as good as Barnes's team.

If Barnes won the league and the FWPY in 90 with Whelan etc in midfield. Why didn't Gerrard do the same in 2009 with Mascherano, Alonso and Kuyt. Why didn't he do it in 2007 or 2008 with basically the same team?
It wasn't as if the Liverpool team Barnes played in didn't have any competition. 87 - Everton, 88-us, 89-Arsenal, 90-us, 91-Arsenal.

 

[Whaddapie]

[quote author=Modo link=topic=46291.msg1372808#msg1372808 date=1312165078]
Good post and I respect your opinion just one thing.

The midfield when Digger won his awards included McMahon, Whelan, Houghton, etc... Gerrard led us to the European cup with Djimi Traore and Vladimir Smicer regular starters, on a team that finished 30+ points off the champions.

You make it sound like McMahon, Whelan and Houghton were some kind of dream team. They weren't.

Maybe not, but they'd each walk into any midfield that SG has ever played in.

I also think you're cherry picking with regards to Traoré and Smicer. First of all, Smicer was a very talented player albeit injured most of the time. Second, our midfield that night had three top class players in Hamann, Garcia and Alonso. Of course as whole that team wasn't even close to being as good as Barnes's team.

Smicer was amoung the most consistently frustrating players I've evr seen at Anfield. Talented, yes. But way, way too often failed to produce anything. Garcia was oft the hero on our biggest nights, but we oft also forget that he would go missing for entire matches quite often as well. Not as bad as Smicer, but similar tendencies. And yes, Xabi and Didi were super players. But you get my point... Digger never carried Liverpool completely - he never needed to - the way Gerrard has repeatedly over his career.

If Barnes won the league and the FWPY in 90 with Whelan etc in midfield. Why didn't Gerrard do the same in 2009 with Mascherano, Alonso and Kuyt. Why didn't he do it in 2007 or 2008 with basically the same team?

Doesn't the final sentence of the above paragraph answer that question for you? Add that to the polar opposite managerial sytles that Digger and Gerrard had running their respective shows, and it's really a little bit silly to even ask.

It wasn't as if the Liverpool team Barnes played in didn't have any competition. 87 - Everton, 88-us, 89-Arsenal, 90-us, 91-Arsenal.

Respectfully, I'm not really sure what that has to do with the Gerrard & Digger debate, mate.
[/quote]

 

[Modo]

I wrote the last part if thinking that someone might say that the competition was harder.

Anyway I think I know where our opinions differ you think Gerrard carried us during 07,08,09. Imo he stopped carrying us after Rafa's 2nd year.

 

[Spionkop69]

[quote author=Modo link=topic=46291.msg1372802#msg1372802 date=1312160718]
Good question Ken.

It's not about race, it's about Barnes being the better player.
Sure Barnes played in a time when they still threw bananas at black players (see the Tommy Smith thread).
But, that is more about him being mentally strong.

Barnes was a genius on the pitch.

My question is:

How appreciated is John Barnes?

We're talking about a midfielder who scored over a hundred goals from the left wing, twice as many assists probably, 75 goals in his first four seasons, won us two league titles and won three prestigious individual awards (1 PPTY, 2 FWPY).

Why I'm asking? Well if someone posts that John effing barnes is only among the top ten maybe top five, it raises questions? I mean who was better?

Barnes was excellent between 87 and 91, but injuries more or less ended his career in 92.
I'm afraid the last few years he played for us and his performances for England might play a part in how he is seen by some. But between 87-91 Barnes was our main player. To bad he never got to perform for us in Europe during those days.
[/quote]

He didn't score over 100 goals from the left wing. You've already stated that he played in numerous positions. When we last won the league in 1990 when he was leading goalscorer he was playing as a striker.

I've already said that Barnes was a magnificent player. Utterly magical, but he did for us for 4 seasons and then due to injuries and other factors he tailed off. Gerrard has mercurial for us since around 2001 and is still doing it. Surely you can see the difference? You say that if we had been in Europe he would have won more, I'd tend to agree but seeing as we weren't in Europe, you can't give him imaginary honours!

Barnes was a magical talent. Gerrard is a magical talent. However on endurance, total versatility and honours won, Gerrard should be seen as superior.

 

[Spionkop69]

[quote author=Modo link=topic=46291.msg1372808#msg1372808 date=1312165078]
You make it sound like McMahon, Whelan and Houghton were some kind of dream team.
They weren't.

[/quote]

As individuals, maybe not, but as part of a team they were magnificent. That was always the Liverpool ethos, don't just buy great players, buy great players who fit the system.

All 3 of those players were part of the 1987 team which tore the league a new one. Liverpool during that era rarely relied on one player, we relied on a team unit. In order to allow Barnes the freedom he had, he needed workhorses around him - those 3 were unfussy and unfashionable but fuck me they got the job done. Whelan did that job from 1979 onwards.

JB was amazing, I was at many games in 87/88 and he was a privilege to watch as an individual, but his individuality was expressed because he was part of an immensely cohesive team unit.

 

[Richey]

I agree. Barnes was a great player for us and certainly one of our true greats, but given the choice I would rather have Gerrard.

The argument about Barnes's goals doesn't really put him above Gerrard. Both were attacking players though not out and out strikers and their goals:games ratios are pretty much the same

Its true that Barnes has league titles whereas Gerrard does but its a fact that Barnes was part of a much better team. Maybe if Gerrard had played in a team like that he would have won more. Impossible to say for sure of course but then its equally impossible to tell if Barnes would have had European success had we competed in that.

Admittedly, its not straightforward. Gerrard's finest moments have been when he has taken a team that is not playing well and pretty much single handedly taken it to victory, something that Barnes never really needed to do, but the fact that Gerrard did do that, and did so over and over again, winning us trophies that we arguably would not have won had it not been for him puts him just ahead of Barnes for me

 

[jexykrodic]

Great footballer, great captain and a role model: Emlyn Hughes.

 

[Oncy]

Why are people bothering to argue with Modo?
Seriously?
Who cares if he thinks Barnes is better than Gerrard?

In answer to the original post, ive already nailed my colours to the mast a couple of seasons ago, and i remember Dalglish and Barnes and Hansen and Beardsley and Fowler and Souness and Kennedy et al but yes, and not even by a little bit Steven Gerrard IS our best ever player.
Hes magnificent and probably the finest all round footballer ive ever seen.
Im not going to talk about like for like teams etc over the years as it really means nothing, but what i will say is what i often say when this question is raised.

If you created a team of Gerrards:

-----------------------------------------------------Gerrard-----------------------------------------------------------------
Gerrard--------------------Gerrard---------------------------------Gerrard------------------------------------Gerrard
----------------------------------------------------Gerrard------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------Gerrard-------------Gerrard------------------------------------------------------
Gerrard--------------------------------------------Gerrard--------------------------------------------------------Gerrard

Who would beat it? I dont mean which club (or international for that matter) sides although in truth i cant think of a team in my lifetime that would beat it (maybe this Barcelona tea, but i doubt it) but i mean a team made up of any other player from the history of the game? WHO could beat it?
None. Im not in any doubt about that.
That team would be rock fucking solid at the back, dynamic, powerful, pacy, driven, would score and create shitloads, it would just steam roller any side ever.

The fact is its difficult to compare a CM (who has played in a host of other positions) with a Striker or a LW (who has played in a host of other positions) etc but as a footballer, a player, an athlete, a symbol, Gerrard is without compare. And he would walk into any football team in history and improve it. Its a non argument for me. Best player ever
Steven Gerrard.

 

[LeTallecWiz]

[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=46291.msg1372934#msg1372934 date=1312205660]
Why are people bothering to argue with Modo?
Seriously?
Who cares if he thinks Barnes is better than Gerrard?
[/quote]

Becuase it's a football forum ... and it's an interesting debate for those involved?

 

[Oncy]

[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=46291.msg1372936#msg1372936 date=1312205963]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=46291.msg1372934#msg1372934 date=1312205660]
Why are people bothering to argue with Modo?
Seriously?
Who cares if he thinks Barnes is better than Gerrard?
[/quote]

Becuase it's a football forum ... and it's an interesting debate for those involved?
[/quote]Its not a debate. A debate can have an outcome.

 

[Oncy]

To clarify im not getting at Modo at all, but he's made his decision and arguing with it is only making him post words strung together that are even more annoying than the original suppositions.

 

[mark1975]

[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=46291.msg1372934#msg1372934 date=1312205660]
Why are people bothering to argue with Modo?
Seriously?
Who cares if he thinks Barnes is better than Gerrard?

In answer to the original post, ive already nailed my colours to the mast a couple of seasons ago, and i remember Dalglish and Barnes and Hansen and Beardsley and Fowler and Souness and Kennedy et al but yes, and not even by a little bit Steven Gerrard IS our best ever player.
Hes magnificent and probably the finest all round footballer ive ever seen.
Im not going to talk about like for like teams etc over the years as it really means nothing, but what i will say is what i often say when this question is raised.

If you created a team of Gerrards:

-----------------------------------------------------Gerrard-----------------------------------------------------------------
Gerrard--------------------Gerrard---------------------------------Gerrard------------------------------------Gerrard
----------------------------------------------------Gerrard------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------Gerrard-------------Gerrard------------------------------------------------------
Gerrard--------------------------------------------Gerrard--------------------------------------------------------Gerrard

Who would beat it? I dont mean which club (or international for that matter) sides although in truth i cant think of a team in my lifetime that would beat it (maybe this Barcelona tea, but i doubt it) but i mean a team made up of any other player from the history of the game? WHO could beat it?
None. Im not in any doubt about that.
That team would be rock fucking solid at the back, dynamic, powerful, pacy, driven, would score and create shitloads, it would just steam roller any side ever.

The fact is its difficult to compare a CM (who has played in a host of other positions) with a Striker or a LW (who has played in a host of other positions) etc but as a footballer, a player, an athlete, a symbol, Gerrard is without compare. And he would walk into any football team in history and improve it. Its a non argument for me. Best player ever
Steven Gerrard.
[/quote]

Top post. Personally I'd normally be inclined to go for Kenny, but Gerrard realistically shades it because of his ability as an all-rounder (like you said). Defence, midfield, attack. And he'd run the game from either position as well.