Glen Johnson

[doctor_mac]

[quote author=singlerider link=topic=35341.msg929147#msg929147 date=1250781578]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=35341.msg929018#msg929018 date=1250769683]
[quote author=Farkmaster link=topic=35341.msg929011#msg929011 date=1250769192]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=35341.msg928998#msg928998 date=1250768324]
These last few posts on Finnan illustrate perfectly the argument I've tried to make about assists being unreliable as a guide to a players attacking contribution to a team.
[/quote]

Jesus you can't let that one go. You are right of course, but the problem with your argument is it seems to be just an obvious tenet of statistics? I mean, isn't the same true of goals scored as well, clean sheets?

Why are you you so singularly obsessed with the assist one? Why do you think its more altered by other factors than these other stats which are bandied about constantly? I'm honestly curious, for some reason.
[/quote]

You've already mentioned some of the variables that come into it, so there's no need to go into details.

The main reason for my obsession is so many people base their judgments on a midfielder solely on that stat. e.g. Ashley Young - good player, we know that but has become massively overrated and overvalued on the basis of a season where he had 17 assists. Nobody knows how well he played all season long, they just know that stat.

Anyway. I'll never mention it again.

I promise
[/quote]

Thing is Ross, assists are only unreliable when it's a lack of them that is being used as a measurement.

For instance "Player X only got 2 assists last season" - doesn't tell the whole story, for all we know they could have been behind much of the build up, I don't know how many assists Xabi got last year, but it probably doesn't reflect the contribution he made to the team.

However, when it's "Ashley Young got 17 assists that season" - again, it doesn't tell us the whole story, but what it does tell us is that he set up 17 goals. And that's a worthwhile story in itself, no?
[/quote]



*puts hand up*

Ah, ah, I know this one Miss:


This is where Rosco tells you that it only means Young was the last person to touch the ball before a goal was scored.

 

[singlerider]

Does that mean a goalscorer is only the last person to touch the ball before it hits the net?

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=singlerider link=topic=35341.msg929157#msg929157 date=1250782380]
Does that mean a goalscorer is only the last person to touch the ball before it hits the net?
[/quote]

yep. riena could give the ball on the edge of his own penalty area to (for example) gerrard, gerrard could then run up the pitch leaving a trail of 5 players in his wake, round the keeper and score and reina would get an assist.

or

you could have gerrard run up the pitch leaving a trail of 5 players in his wake he would then pass for yossi (for example) who feeds a simple ball to torres who scores, yossi rather than gerrard would get the assist.
it's worth noting that a goal scored directly from a corner is an assist for the corner taker so if young takes villa's corners it would explain a lot. Henry got a sea of assists from corners.

 

[mark1975]

[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=35341.msg929164#msg929164 date=1250783636]
[quote author=singlerider link=topic=35341.msg929157#msg929157 date=1250782380]
Does that mean a goalscorer is only the last person to touch the ball before it hits the net?
[/quote]

yep. riena could give the ball on the edge of his own penalty area to (for example) gerrard, gerrard could then run up the pitch leaving a trail of 5 players in his wake, round the keeper and score and reina would get an assist.

or

you could have gerrard run up the pitch leaving a trail of 5 players in his wake he would then pass for yossi (for example) who feeds a simple ball to torres who scores, yossi rather than gerrard would get the assist.
it's worth noting that a goal scored directly from a corner is an assist for the corner taker so if young takes villa's corners it would explain a lot. Henry got a sea of assists from corners.
[/quote]

Reina could also pass the ball to Agger, who could then pass the ball to an opponent, who then scores. Does that count as an assist? 😀

 

[Oncy]

Nobody undervalues assists as much as Ross. Many over value them.

 

[LadyRed]

[quote author=TheBunnyman link=topic=35341.msg928911#msg928911 date=1250763060]
[quote author=Anita link=topic=35341.msg928844#msg928844 date=1250759486]
[quote author=livvy185 link=topic=35341.msg928591#msg928591 date=1250719870]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=35341.msg928590#msg928590 date=1250719789]
I think Reina is our most handsome player.
[/quote]

So does my wife.
[/quote]

Reina probably is our best looking player now.
[/quote]

Bit chubby-faced though, no? And no hair.


[/quote]

Chubby? Behave.

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

That's my chances of a shag off Richey up in smoke then.

 

[Rosco]

[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=35341.msg929174#msg929174 date=1250784816]
Nobody undervalues assists as much as Ross. Many over value them.
[/quote]


Look at Kuyt's goal last night.

Gerrard, quite rightly gets an assist.

But didn't Mascherano play a key role in that movement with two good passes ? Yet it counts for absolutely nothing in the stats.

That's why I don't think it means much when it comes to judging a player. Some one eyed fucking idiot will make the point later this season that Mascherano doesn't contribute anything going forward, using the assists stats as his evidence, but anyone who watches matches knows while he doesn't contribute as much as others he does have his moments.

 

[Akakabooto]

Is it just me or is this the silliest argument ever?

 

[Rosco]

[quote author=Akakabooto link=topic=35341.msg929227#msg929227 date=1250791396]
Is it just me or is this the silliest argument ever?
[/quote]

Maybe you're just not clever enough

 

[doctor_mac]

To pick up on Rosco's (excellent) example, Masher has been playing some very nice attacking passes lately. He played a few doozies in preseason too.

 

[Oncy]

[quote author=Rosco link=topic=35341.msg929226#msg929226 date=1250791169]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=35341.msg929174#msg929174 date=1250784816]
Nobody undervalues assists as much as Ross. Many over value them.
[/quote]


Look at Kuyt's goal last night.

Gerrard, quite rightly gets an assist.

But didn't Mascherano play a key role in that movement with two good passes ? Yet it counts for absolutely nothing in the stats.

That's why I don't think it means much when it comes to judging a player. Some one eyed fucking idiot will make the point later this season that Mascherano doesn't contribute anything going forward, using the assists stats as his evidence, but anyone who watches matches knows while he doesn't contribute as much as others he does have his moments.
[/quote]But its that final ball, and the ability to perform it on a consistent basis that sets aside the good from the great (attacking) players.
You're far to quick to discount its relevance for me.
The ability to see a pass and/or create a goal is a huge plus when signing a player.

 

[Oncy]

[quote author=doctor_mac link=topic=35341.msg929230#msg929230 date=1250791530]
To pick up on Rosco's (excellent) example, Masher has been playing some very nice attacking passes lately. He played a few doozies in preseason too.
[/quote]I agree. His passing has been much improved.

 

[Akakabooto]

[quote author=Rosco link=topic=35341.msg929228#msg929228 date=1250791422]
[quote author=Akakabooto link=topic=35341.msg929227#msg929227 date=1250791396]
Is it just me or is this the silliest argument ever?
[/quote]

Maybe you're just not clever enough
[/quote]

Yes maybe.

To me if a player has assists it can be an indication he has quality going forward and making chances. Also if a player doesn't have a lot of assists it doesn't mean he can't contribute to attacking play.

You have to be able to look beyond the stats but stats can be helpful when judging a player. To me it's simple as that so I'm amazed this argument has been going on this long.

 

[the count]

[quote author=Sheik Yerbouti link=topic=35341.msg929216#msg929216 date=1250789238]
That's my chances of a shag off Richey up in smoke then.
[/quote]

On the other hand it would appear that Anita doesn't mind her men bald and a bit rotund 😉

 

[Rosco]

[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=35341.msg929231#msg929231 date=1250791743]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=35341.msg929226#msg929226 date=1250791169]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=35341.msg929174#msg929174 date=1250784816]
Nobody undervalues assists as much as Ross. Many over value them.
[/quote]


Look at Kuyt's goal last night.

Gerrard, quite rightly gets an assist.

But didn't Mascherano play a key role in that movement with two good passes ? Yet it counts for absolutely nothing in the stats.

That's why I don't think it means much when it comes to judging a player. Some one eyed fucking idiot will make the point later this season that Mascherano doesn't contribute anything going forward, using the assists stats as his evidence, but anyone who watches matches knows while he doesn't contribute as much as others he does have his moments.
[/quote]But its that final ball, and the ability to perform it on a consistent basis that sets aside the good from the great (attacking) players.
You're far to quick to discount its relevance for me.
The ability to see a pass and/or create a goal is a huge plus when signing a player.
[/quote]

Of course it is.

But to go back to the very start of it all again. The assist stat doesn't always count who sees the pass or who creates the goal. It counts who touched the ball last before the goal scorer did.

That can be someone who has picked a great pass or created something out of nothing, but it can also be someone who's tapped the free kick a yard to the right for Stevie to strike. Both of those get marked down as an assist, i.e. that they are of equal value in statistical terms. You and I both know they aren't of equal value.

 

[Akakabooto]

Oh and Rosco I didn't mean your argument was 'silliest ever' just that this argument as a whole is a bit silly.

 

[Rosco]

[quote author=Akakabooto link=topic=35341.msg929240#msg929240 date=1250792241]
Oh and Rosco I didn't mean your argument was 'silliest ever' just that this argument as a whole is a bit silly.
[/quote]

Well I didn't mean my reply either.

 

[mark1975]

[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=35341.msg929231#msg929231 date=1250791743]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=35341.msg929226#msg929226 date=1250791169]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=35341.msg929174#msg929174 date=1250784816]
Nobody undervalues assists as much as Ross. Many over value them.
[/quote]


Look at Kuyt's goal last night.

Gerrard, quite rightly gets an assist.

But didn't Mascherano play a key role in that movement with two good passes ? Yet it counts for absolutely nothing in the stats.

That's why I don't think it means much when it comes to judging a player. Some one eyed fucking idiot will make the point later this season that Mascherano doesn't contribute anything going forward, using the assists stats as his evidence, but anyone who watches matches knows while he doesn't contribute as much as others he does have his moments.
[/quote]But its that final ball, and the ability to perform it on a consistent basis that sets aside the good from the great (attacking) players.
You're far to quick to discount its relevance for me.
The ability to see a pass and/or create a goal is a huge plus when signing a player.
[/quote]

But it's relevant to the right players.

In our team for example, players who should be judged heavily on how many goals they directly set up are the ones in the 3-4 attacking positions.

Position is important because Masher and Lucas are so many yards deeper, it's progressive. Keeper/defence plays the ball to midfield, midfield plays the ball to attackers, attackers produce goals either in the form of an assist or directly.

That's simplifying it but it's a valid point. The ability to create is more valid for some players than others, so the crux of Rosco's argument is right, there's little point judging a defensive midfielder on how directly creative he is, especially when it's often his good work either defensively or offensively that's involved in the build up to a chance.

 

[Oncy]

[quote author=Rosco link=topic=35341.msg929239#msg929239 date=1250792121]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=35341.msg929231#msg929231 date=1250791743]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=35341.msg929226#msg929226 date=1250791169]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=35341.msg929174#msg929174 date=1250784816]
Nobody undervalues assists as much as Ross. Many over value them.
[/quote]


Look at Kuyt's goal last night.

Gerrard, quite rightly gets an assist.

But didn't Mascherano play a key role in that movement with two good passes ? Yet it counts for absolutely nothing in the stats.

That's why I don't think it means much when it comes to judging a player. Some one eyed fucking idiot will make the point later this season that Mascherano doesn't contribute anything going forward, using the assists stats as his evidence, but anyone who watches matches knows while he doesn't contribute as much as others he does have his moments.
[/quote]But its that final ball, and the ability to perform it on a consistent basis that sets aside the good from the great (attacking) players.
You're far to quick to discount its relevance for me.
The ability to see a pass and/or create a goal is a huge plus when signing a player.
[/quote]

Of course it is.

But to go back to the very start of it all again. The assist stat doesn't always count who sees the pass or who creates the goal. It counts who touched the ball last before the goal scorer did.

That can be someone who has picked a great pass or created something out of nothing, but it can also be someone who's tapped the free kick a yard to the right for Stevie to strike. Both of those get marked down as an assist, i.e. that they are of equal value in statistical terms. You and I both know they aren't of equal value.

[/quote]I think you know i dont put very much stead in Assists. I just think you almost totally disregard it.
Its hardly important though.

 

[Oncy]

[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=35341.msg929244#msg929244 date=1250792391]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=35341.msg929231#msg929231 date=1250791743]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=35341.msg929226#msg929226 date=1250791169]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=35341.msg929174#msg929174 date=1250784816]
Nobody undervalues assists as much as Ross. Many over value them.
[/quote]


Look at Kuyt's goal last night.

Gerrard, quite rightly gets an assist.

But didn't Mascherano play a key role in that movement with two good passes ? Yet it counts for absolutely nothing in the stats.

That's why I don't think it means much when it comes to judging a player. Some one eyed fucking idiot will make the point later this season that Mascherano doesn't contribute anything going forward, using the assists stats as his evidence, but anyone who watches matches knows while he doesn't contribute as much as others he does have his moments.
[/quote]But its that final ball, and the ability to perform it on a consistent basis that sets aside the good from the great (attacking) players.
You're far to quick to discount its relevance for me.
The ability to see a pass and/or create a goal is a huge plus when signing a player.
[/quote]

But it's relevant to the right players.

In our team for example, players who should be judged heavily on how many goals they directly set up are the ones in the 3-4 attacking positions.

Position is important because Masher and Lucas are so many yards deeper, it's progressive. Keeper/defence plays the ball to midfield, midfield plays the ball to attackers, attackers produce goals either in the form of an assist or directly.

That's simplifying it but it's a valid point. The ability to create is more valid for some players than others, so the crux of Rosco's argument is right, there's little point judging a defensive midfielder on how directly creative he is, especially when it's often his good work either defensively or offensively that's involved in the build up to a chance.
[/quote]Quite right too. But when using them in direct relation to an attacking/creative player, they ARE a viable statistic.

 

[Rosco]

I prefer watching players and judging how creative they are that way.

It's more reliable.

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

[quote author=the count link=topic=35341.msg929236#msg929236 date=1250791978]
[quote author=Sheik Yerbouti link=topic=35341.msg929216#msg929216 date=1250789238]
That's my chances of a shag off Richey up in smoke then.
[/quote]

On the other hand it would appear that Anita doesn't mind her men bald and a bit rotund 😉
[/quote]

She wouldn't have me if I was the last man on earth.

 

[Oncy]

[quote author=Rosco link=topic=35341.msg929252#msg929252 date=1250793386]
I prefer watching players and judging how creative they are that way.

It's more reliable.
[/quote]Of course it is. And in an ideal world you would be able to watch every minute of a players career and judge him on that but being as you cant, and the best you get is 4 mins of youtubia you take what you can get.
For example you dont judge Mascherano on his assists, because you watch him play week in week out. But say we're in for Dzeko or Lavezzi id take all the stats i can get......im right fucking bored with this though.

 

[the count]

[quote author=Sheik Yerbouti link=topic=35341.msg929253#msg929253 date=1250793424]
[quote author=the count link=topic=35341.msg929236#msg929236 date=1250791978]
[quote author=Sheik Yerbouti link=topic=35341.msg929216#msg929216 date=1250789238]
That's my chances of a shag off Richey up in smoke then.
[/quote]

On the other hand it would appear that Anita doesn't mind her men bald and a bit rotund 😉
[/quote]

She couldn't have me if I was the last man on earth.
[/quote]

My, you play hard to get!

 

[Vlads Quiff]

Ha ha , the Echo have given Lucas the MOM
Had a good game, but FloJo was head and shoulders

regards

 

[Ryan]

[quote author=Rosco link=topic=35341.msg929252#msg929252 date=1250793386]
I prefer watching players and judging how creative they are that way.

It's more reliable.
[/quote]

Yet you compare Robbie Keane and Voronin on the back of some easy stats.

Balls Ross.

 

[Skullflower]

[quote author=Ryan link=topic=35341.msg929403#msg929403 date=1250814729]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=35341.msg929252#msg929252 date=1250793386]
I prefer watching players and judging how creative they are that way.

It's more reliable.
[/quote]

Yet you compare Robbie Keane and Voronin on the back of some easy stats.

Balls Ross.
[/quote]

leave ross alone, you fucking bully. he's got a bad back.

 

[The Slugmonster]

Any chance we can get back to how great Glen Johnson is? ;D ;D

 

[Richey]

[quote author=Sheik Yerbouti link=topic=35341.msg929216#msg929216 date=1250789238]
That's my chances of a shag off Richey up in smoke then.
[/quote]

Well, although you are correct I think it was the Bunnyman who doesn't like chubby baldies.

It was difficult to word that correctly and I am not sure that I managed it