Football Finance
- Thread starter King Binny
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I’ve got some Polly’s IPAs. On offer in the ASDA. Would recommend.
I don't really drink much, maybe I'll need to take it up to stop City getting away with it...
I’ll double up to make up for it.
As long as I don't have to go on Tik Tok as well...
Taking one for the team, good lad.
Fixed
That’s for the update Beamrider
OK, I’ve read the decision. What it basically says is because the previous rules were flawed, they’re unenforceable in their entirety. This means the PL’s process for assessing the value of deals between 2021 and 2024 is void. It does NOT undermine the principle that those deals had to be fairly priced, if anything it underlines that requirement (it talks at length about shareholder loans and those rules would not be needed if they did not endorse the fundamental idea that everything has to be priced appropriately).
I think the suggestion that it opens the PL to millions in damages is dubious. If it can be shown that the PL refused to sanction a deal which was not, in fact, over-priced, then they could be subject to a damages claim. I don’t think that will apply because the affected clubs were almost certainly taking the piss and those deals were over-priced, it’s just that there were flaws in how the PL reached that conclusion. If the clubs had just gone ahead with the deals, they’d still have had to adjust them to their real value for FFP, and that value will be the same, regardless of how the PL checked it.
TLDR - not the bombshell it’s being made out to be, just confirmation of how last year’s decision should be interpreted.
I think the suggestion that it opens the PL to millions in damages is dubious. If it can be shown that the PL refused to sanction a deal which was not, in fact, over-priced, then they could be subject to a damages claim. I don’t think that will apply because the affected clubs were almost certainly taking the piss and those deals were over-priced, it’s just that there were flaws in how the PL reached that conclusion. If the clubs had just gone ahead with the deals, they’d still have had to adjust them to their real value for FFP, and that value will be the same, regardless of how the PL checked it.
TLDR - not the bombshell it’s being made out to be, just confirmation of how last year’s decision should be interpreted.
Thanks. You’ve had two beers so far by the way. Good old reliable Sierra Nevada draft. You’re on the Pollys next.
My City mate is convinced that City have blown up everything in sport so that clubs can not be restricted in anyway as to how they spend money and it signify the end of the EPL & UEFA due to UK & Euro competition law.
PL will also now also be forced to drop the charges against City or they’ll pursue something like £800,000,000 in compensation for APT anti- competitive illegal behaviour.
PL will also now also be forced to drop the charges against City or they’ll pursue something like £800,000,000 in compensation for APT anti- competitive illegal behaviour.
Tell your friend some dude on the Internet called FarkMaster thinks he's a cunt.
Did he support Chelsea a decade ago?
Liverpool have announced a freeze on general admission and season-ticket prices for next season after discussions with the club’s supporters board. Liverpool promised “meaningful engagement” with the board in light of criticism for raising prices for this season without consultation.
Junior tickets will be frozen at £9 for the 10th consecutive season. Liverpool said the price freeze “comes despite significant increases in Anfield match-day operating costs and continued rises in the cost of football operations in general”.
The club promised to respond to concerns over access to tickets and the online purchasing process, which were highlighted by a majority of supporters in a survey. Liverpool intend to “start discussions with its supporters board on developing a range of ticketing policy changes during next season and beyond”.
Junior tickets will be frozen at £9 for the 10th consecutive season. Liverpool said the price freeze “comes despite significant increases in Anfield match-day operating costs and continued rises in the cost of football operations in general”.
The club promised to respond to concerns over access to tickets and the online purchasing process, which were highlighted by a majority of supporters in a survey. Liverpool intend to “start discussions with its supporters board on developing a range of ticketing policy changes during next season and beyond”.
Amazing news. Great step by the club, the loss of revenue must be worth the goodwill.
I don't know why they don't just commit to a schedule. Every 3 years we are raising prices, tied to some external figure like CPI or some such. Inflation + x%. Fans will quickly get on board and then this whole discussion goes away. No drama. No protests.
Things get more expensive, that's life in a fiat currency world full of governments pumping out cash.
Things get more expensive, that's life in a fiat currency world full of governments pumping out cash.
I think non-season ticket holders will see the increase. There is more and more supporters that travel far and wide for 1 off games, and they will pay the increase without too much complaint
How is Man U not at risk of failing PSR?
They got a shady agreement with the Premier League to continue adjustments for covid outside the normal period for which they allowed it for other clubs. Apparently there was a reference to it in one of their reports to the SEC. They were allowed a £40m adjustment for having to cancel a summer tour due to covid.
They shouldn't have got away with it, but they did.
And finally, there is no fucking way their tour would have made £40m. Not even close.
The other 19 clubs didn't complain?
They didn't know. All done behind closed doors. Too late now.
Absolutely 100% on board with this approach ... if it is done with integrity.
That would include looking at the CPI since the mid 80s and adjusting current ticket prices back to 1985 prices + CPI, then start applying the CPI formula every 3 years. I think that would leave the current average ticket price at £15-20
I think you are on to something., fans would get on board with this.
We did take a look at this when I was there. The problem is that the club's costs don't move with basic inflation. Player wages and transfer fees are obviously off the scale, but even if you just look at match-day overheads then they will have outstripped inflation in recent years - much of the wage base for the casual staff is based on real living wage and the increases there have been ahead of CPI or even RPI inflation in recent years.
The reality is that much of the growth in matchday revenue is not coming from general admission tickets - it's coming from hospitality, club shop, food and beverage etc. The prawn sandwich brigade have been subsidising basic ticket prices for decades. The more the fan groups push the club to keep prices low, the more compelling the arguments become for shit like dynamic pricing and charging more for the premium locations in the stands - we increased the number of price points massively when opening the Main Stand so ticketing could hit target. We really don't want to go into the darker recesses of maximising ticket revenue. And that's the tension that exists. Of course it's mad how much a ticket costs now, but that's the industry. You're not paying to watch a group of guys earning £100k a year anymore. And it's true across the entertainment industry, as Oasis or Beyonce fans can testify.
And finally, believe it or not, it's not like the ticketing department is desperate to shaft fans, they're given targets to hit and they have to be creative about how they get there. But the idea that media and commercial revenue alone will fund the business and the fans can get in for a fiver is for the birds.
EDIT - sorry @tombrown not having a vendetta against you, honest!
So the alternative is to continue racking up the prices and taking it even further out of the hands of the working class fans and more the preserve of the upper middle class and high end tourists.
I get that player wages have increased, but I suspect that in the mid 80s any TV deal was worth about £25 per year and the prize money for the European cup was a bottle of brown ale. Costs are up but income is also up and, as we are often told by many people in the know, matchday gate receipts are such a tiny portion of overall revenue it is well within the gift of the industry to cut prices ... they did it for the away ticket prices under pressure from fan groups, and I am yet to see any club going under as a result.
Anyway my point was more to do with people who point to inflation and say fans should be able to get on board with inflationary increases while ignoring the fact that price increases in the last 40 years have far exceeded inflation. You can't have it both ways.
I get that player wages have increased, but I suspect that in the mid 80s any TV deal was worth about £25 per year and the prize money for the European cup was a bottle of brown ale. Costs are up but income is also up and, as we are often told by many people in the know, matchday gate receipts are such a tiny portion of overall revenue it is well within the gift of the industry to cut prices ... they did it for the away ticket prices under pressure from fan groups, and I am yet to see any club going under as a result.
Anyway my point was more to do with people who point to inflation and say fans should be able to get on board with inflationary increases while ignoring the fact that price increases in the last 40 years have far exceeded inflation. You can't have it both ways.
I think that's totally fair. The difficulty is where we are starting from now. Clubs aren't going to give up that baseline of matchday income, and for most of them they couldn't afford to without rationalising their cost base massively (and we're all laughing at Ratcliffe trying to do that at United, although he's obviously going after the rank and file rather than football operations where the real savings sit).
Truth is that it needed fans to kick off about this decades ago and to not allow things to spiral the way they have (thanks in no small part to the creation of the Premier League and the Sky intervention). It's kind of too late now to make a meaningful impact.
I remember paying £27 for a ticket in 2000, which apparently equates to £53 today. I'm not sure how that compares exactly to current prices, because as @Beamrider says they're much more stratified now, but it's in the same ballpark.
The really hefty real terms rises must've happened in the 90s, but god knows when.
Anyway, I've long thought a good idea would be to allow the clubs to sell their untelevised games to the fans but insist that a high % of that revenue goes to reducing ticket prices. I mean we already intervene in the market by stopping those sales (to make sure tickets demand stays high of all things!) so I don't see why that couldn't be adjusted to actually help the current problems.
The really hefty real terms rises must've happened in the 90s, but god knows when.
Anyway, I've long thought a good idea would be to allow the clubs to sell their untelevised games to the fans but insist that a high % of that revenue goes to reducing ticket prices. I mean we already intervene in the market by stopping those sales (to make sure tickets demand stays high of all things!) so I don't see why that couldn't be adjusted to actually help the current problems.
Just to put some numbers on this. I've looked at Matchday income per the accounts. The comparison over the years is a bit tricky as in the outer years the club included TV income in that figure, and obviously there have been changes to the size of the ground etc.
But comparing 2003 to 2023 (which includes Main Stand expansion), the annual growth rate is 5.25%. So if you strip out an 18% capacity increase from the Main Stand (may be wrong as not sure on the 2003 capacity, but the uplift was about 8,500 when the Main Stand opened), you're looking at about 4.5% per annum, some of which will be attributable to selling more hospitality (i.e. product mix rather than price).
RPI was around 2.7% over the same period, CPI was 2.8%.
But comparing 2003 to 2023 (which includes Main Stand expansion), the annual growth rate is 5.25%. So if you strip out an 18% capacity increase from the Main Stand (may be wrong as not sure on the 2003 capacity, but the uplift was about 8,500 when the Main Stand opened), you're looking at about 4.5% per annum, some of which will be attributable to selling more hospitality (i.e. product mix rather than price).
RPI was around 2.7% over the same period, CPI was 2.8%.
