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Firmino/Striker Discussion

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It comes down to this. Do you think we would score more goals as a team if Sturridge played every week instead of Firmino. We'd have a better chance of having a player who scores around 20 goals, but would we score as many goals per game? I happen to think we would score less, and that we'd be a more predictable team that played in a more predictable way.
 
The million dollar question is how much possession - and how many chances - do you forego by starting a more traditional and static number 9.
Well if you're taking pretty much the only example we have this season, which is obtained by replacing Firmino with Sturridge, then a helluva lot.

That's not to say that's the only potential solution though. I suspect we may see Origi in place of one of that front three before too long for some reason (injury, fitness, suspension) & when we do if he can replicate that scintillating form he was in the league cup he may well solve this issue, but at who's expense I don't know.

Tbh if we were guaranteed that performance from Origi every match I'd be happy with him & Mane being interchangeable, cos they both offer similar things, bags of pace, energy, running at defenders, creating space, & an eye for goal to boot, although Origi isn't as consistent his eye for goal & shooting technique is better.
 
http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...dew-james-mcarthur-jurgen-klopp-a7387906.html
Alan Pardew:
[article]“Firmino plays that striker’s role really clever, you don’t really know where he is and it’s unnatural for centre halves. He pulls you around, pops up in midfield, then when he’s in midfield, someone else replaces him. It’s like a piston in an engine working there.”[/article]

http://www.espn.co.uk/football/engl...-system-and-liverpool-are-reaping-the-rewards
Michael Cox:
[article]Firmino, by contrast, is suited to the style of play and it begins with his pressing ability. While Benteke is a static figure, Firmino is always on the move. His job isn't generally to win the ball himself, but instead to pressure a defender, forcing him to turn in a particular direction and play a pass towards a full-back.

Firmino effectively helps Liverpool to split the pitch in half, meaning they can they focus their pressing on one side and box in the opposition. It proved effective at Palace, with the home side rarely able to play out of danger.

There is more to him than that, though. He's naturally an attacking midfielder rather than a centre-forward and so offers tremendous creativity when he drops deep. With Sadio Mane charging into scoring positions from the right flank, it works excellently.

Firmino has only recorded one assist this season but has created 25 chances, an excellent return from nine Premier League starts. His teammates simply haven't been converting them effectively, which is why assist numbers sometimes offer a misleading picture of a creative player's impact.

In theory, he is something of a false nine, an unnatural striker who will move towards play rather than running in behind. Using a player in his mould can sometimes result in teams playing in front of their opponents, never seeking to penetrate.

But Firmino can move in both directions effectively, coming short to become involved in build-up play, or spinning in behind to turn the opposition; his goal on Saturday demonstrated that he can provide pace beyond a defence to offer another dimension to Liverpool's play.

It's a simple concept but relatively rare amongst modern strikers and it makes him extremely difficult to mark. He has four goals in his last six league appearances and is moving towards the type of consistency a title challenger requires from its most advanced player.

"Roberto is a player, who is always involved in all offensive actions and all defensive actions," Klopp said earlier this season. "He really likes doing things like [pressing], because it's a natural skill that he knows. It's a nice opportunity to win the ball and be close [to the opposition goal], that's why he's doing it. He doesn't think too much, he's an instinctive player; that's really, really strong in these situations. He can play nearly all offensive positions."

Despite that versatility, it's difficult to imagine Firmino will regularly be moved from the centre-forward position. Despite Daniel Sturridge's EFL Cup double against Tottenham in midweek, he now appears Liverpool's Plan B. Their pressing and interplay was noticeably poor when he started upfront against Manchester United and Liverpool improved significant when he departed and Firmino played alone upfront.

There's been a slight shift in the style of top-level strikers in recent years. Initially the likes of Carlos Tevez, Sergio Aguero, Luis Suarez and Alexis Sanchez were considered second strikers, the type who needed to be played just behind a traditional centre-forward, who offers more height and aerial ability.

But with teams playing increasingly high-energy, technical football and wanting good ball-playing skills from across the side, these dynamic South American forwards are now most at home upfront. It's now entirely normal to think of Aguero as a No. 9, despite the fact he's only played that role for a couple of seasons. Meanwhile, Sanchez is at last experiencing something similar at Arsenal.

Soon, we might start to consider Firmino in these kinds of terms, as one of the most effective strikers in the division. Judging by his brilliant finish on Saturday, he has the potential to develop further and become a truly ruthless centre-forward.[/article]

http://www.squawka.com/news/roberto...ent-of-destruction/812958#cSorAAp0M6zYBYoA.99
Squawka:
[article]None of Liverpool’s other options at centre-forward come close to his numbers for defensive actions inside the opposition’s half, nor can they match up to his ability to make the most of the opportunities his hunger to close defenders and midfielders tends to produce. Since Klopp took over at Anfield, only N’Golo Kante has made more tackles in the opposition’s half in the Premier League. Roberto Firmino is Gegenpressing made flesh. Tireless, technically brilliant and tenacious in his pursuit of the ball.

As a runner he makes sacrifices that would be beyond the ego of other strikers, sprinting across the face of goal to draw a defender or two without any hope of scoring himself. It’s a move that has gifted goals to his deeper-lying teammates, arriving late in the box to enjoy a clear shot on goal with the opposition dragged out of position.

Unfortunately, assists are only granted to those who play the final ball, not those who make that final ball possible. Firmino has been directly responsible for more goals than his boots have touched. Even so, he has still been directly involved in 22 goals in 34 Premier League appearances since October 8 2015.

When he is in command of the ball, more often than not, he makes sure every touch matters. Over that period same period, no player has completed more passes inside the opposition’s box than Firmino, who has found a teammate 33 times in the area, creating 19 chances and helping to conjure up so many more by supplying the pass before the final ball.

It is not just the speed at which Liverpool rush at their rivals when on the attack but the precision of the inter-play and decisions made by Klopp’s forwards that makes the Reds so dangerous and impressive.

With a pass completion rate of 55.93% inside the penalty area, Firmino is also his team’s the most accurate passer in the area of the pitch where time and space is at an absolute premium – rarely does he dally in possession. That is not his job, yet neither is he some sort of moments player, flitting in or out of games. Firmino is a constant.

If playmakers are said to be the players to set the tempo for their teammates, the Brazilian is a footballer forever trying to up the BPM for Klopp on the field.

He is almost always available for a pass, always looking to pounce on the half-turn, always buzzing around a defence to try and find new angles and gaps and squeeze into, but never does he dwell. Before he has the opportunity to do so he has taken the ball past someone, given it back to receive it again in a better position or darted off on one of his decoy runs to open up more space.

He is the ultimate middle man, and in many ways that’s exactly what Klopp requires. Liverpool are a side that tries to play in perpetual transition – a team that is always in the middle of something, be it pressing, counter-attacking or creating danger at will.

It is when they are forced to stop or stay in one fixed state that they tend to fall apart. Burnley halted their momentum at Turf Moor and the Reds were partly broken by the shock of their own inertia as much as anything else. When Manchester United rocked up at Anfield with the sole intent to make the game as static as possible, they suffered too.

Liverpool are at their best when the opposition can be caught in the midst of their own confusion, often inside their own half, and kept there, which is exactly where Firmino does his best work. Of the 45 take-ons he has completed since Klopp’s arrival, 21 have come in front of the opposition’s penalty area from 34 attempts – a success rate of 61.77% with almost half of his successful dribbles coming from within the zone often designated as “the hole”.

However, he isn’t a striker like Sturridge nor a midfielder like Lallana. His purpose lies somewhere in between these definitions, and by embracing that Liverpool have found a front man who doesn’t quite play up front, and it’s driving their opponent’s to destruction, one touch at a time.[/article]
 
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Some of our missed chances have been the result of sloppy finishing, pure and simple such as Mane blazing over the bar from close range on Saturday. We will give someone a real thumping pretty soon if we keep on creating the multitude of good chances.

I'm sure Klopp is working on this in training, it's exasperating when we do all the hard work in putting it on a plate for us to then waste the opportunity and it's not one player, they are all guilty of squandering chances. That includes Sturridge who has been wasteful in games as well.

We used to say the same about Suarez when he first arrived, the description of him was a scorer of great goals but not a great goalscorer. Well, he turned that around dramatically and became ridiculously lethal in front of goal. We can't hope for the same from Firmino etc but we should be putting away a higher percentage even if it sounds like goalscoring is not a problem for us statistically. My eyes tell me a different story, the last few games we have pummelled the opposition but have still managed to find ourselves enduring a nervy last few minutes.

It's a good position to be in because most sides find it difficult to create chances and the easier bit is to put them away more often.
 
Some of our missed chances have been the result of sloppy finishing, pure and simple such as Mane blazing over the bar from close range on Saturday. We will give someone a real thumping pretty soon if we keep on creating the multitude of good chances.

I'm sure Klopp is working on this in training, it's exasperating when we do all the hard work in putting it on a plate for us to then waste the opportunity and it's not one player, they are all guilty of squandering chances. That includes Sturridge who has been wasteful in games as well.

We used to say the same about Suarez when he first arrived, the description of him was a scorer of great goals but not a great goalscorer. Well, he turned that around dramatically and became ridiculously lethal in front of goal. We can't hope for the same from Firmino etc but we should be putting away a higher percentage even if it sounds like goalscoring is not a problem for us statistically. My eyes tell me a different story, the last few games we have pummelled the opposition but have still managed to find ourselves enduring a nervy last few minutes.

It's a good position to be in because most sides find it difficult to create chances and the easier bit is to put them away more often.
Exactly.

Our stats look fine, better than fine, but the way we're playing they could be phenomenal. If we put away just a couple more of the gilt edged chances we create we'd be demolishing sides so regularly that some teams would be beaten before we even kicked off.

That's what happened in 13/14, teams were so worried about being embarrassed they forgot about trying to beat us & tried damage limitation instead, which played right into our hands.

We manage to get more clinical in front of goal this season & there's no reason we don't see that again.

Conversely, the more of those chances we miss in a game, the more the opposition starts to think "They're having one of those days, if they can do all this & not score, then we might have a chance here" & mentally they up their game.
 
Isn't it refreshing how we're no longer relying on one main striker ala Owen, Torres, Suarez, Sturridge to get all of our goals (I know we had Suarez AND Sturridge in 2014/15) but rather we have a strong attacking front THREE who can all score goals, as well as the 3 in midfield who can also score goals. It seems we have goals all over the pitch what with Lovren and Matip scoring at the weekend.
 
I posted this in Brendan's gen-gen thread but @LeTallecWiz is right, it might be better in here:

The big and as yet still unanswered question for me is does Sturridge have a role in this team?

Our style of play, the players and the form they're in mean we'll always create chances but we're still not ruthless enough in converting them. What a fully fit, focused and motivated Sturridge offers us, more than anybody else in the squad (more than most in the league and beyond) is the clinical eye for goal...the ability to convert those chances on a regular basis. With THAT Sturridge, our goals per chances created ratio is bound to increase irrespective of the alternatives. Of all the players in our squad, who would you want one on one with the keeper? Or with the ball at his feet 10 yards out in a crowded area? It's Sturridge. It's always Sturridge. How we get there, be it the slide pass, chipped ball, cross or the end result of an intricate passing move, is irrelevant, if we get the ball into those spaces Sturridge is more likely to convert than any alternative.

So it comes back, yet again, to Sturridge's fitness and attitude. If we crack those puzzles it's a complete no-brainer...Sturridge starts regardless. I would happily sacrifice a few kms of running or pressing in return for a world-class, greedy bastard striker finding the net more regularly than the undoubtedly impressive Firmino.

In other matters, I still have a concern also about the impact on the team of taking just one or two 'first-teamers' out. Look at the difference when we missed Lallana at the start of the Utd game...and the difference he made when he came on? And who thinks we would have beaten Palace at the weekend if Coutinho had been unavailable. It seems that even a single change to the starting 11 makes a huge difference to our approach and effectiveness. Klopp needs to address that.
 
I liked this cos I know you (amongst a couple of others) have been banging on that bizarrely we look less than clinical despite goals scored saying otherwise.

However I don't think it's mentality, it's simple.

We have Firmino, Coutinho, Mane, Lallana & Henderson who are theoretically most likely to score.

Not one of those players are who I'd bet my house on scoring in even a one on one situation. They're all hit & miss (literally) & all have striking technique issues.

That's why we're not clinical.

Against Palace we had both centre backs score, & Can pop up with a goal too.

Of our front line only Firmino scored, despite all our possession & chances created.

I guess this is where we differ, I'd honestly fancy Mane, Coutinho and Firmino all in a one on one situation, I think all three of them are technically very good finishers, Firmino on Saturday, Mane versus Hull and Coutinho against Spurs are good examples of that, they weren't spectacular goals, but they required good solid finishes from within 20 yards. I really think it's concentration / mentality that lets them down, I suppose this is one in the same, having great technique is worth nothing is you don't have that killer instinct, I'm just hoping it's not as complicated as that and that it's something Klopp can work on and improve with them throughout the season. I guess we'll find out as the season goes on which it is, but I'm hoping I'm right because if it can be improved upon through training, we'll be absolutely unstoppable.
 
I've tried to make this a wider discussion the gen-gen thread, but perhaps the specifics of Firmino and the ideal striker can exist here.

It's great to see some genuine quality discussion, without the usual crybaby bleating and ill-advised point-scoring (without any points ever being scored), when in actual fact I've never actually said anything inaccurate or without basis in facts.

Firmino doesn't score enough, isn't a reliable striker and lacks pace. It's not even debatable.

What is worthy of debate is the possibility/ viability of a genuine striking focal point - who may not even be at the club right now - and how Firmino, Mane, Coutinho et al could work in support of such a player. What would that player look like? What would his attributes be?

I think Firmino is a good player - almost every rating I've given him is 7 or above - but expecting him to lead the goalscoring and be the focal point of a title-winning team seems folly.

I don't know why so many people get so very upset and angry about debating it. It's very odd. Don't attack the poster, or allow that to colour your opinion. If anything, that should make consensus more aligned with my opinion, given most of the evidence suggests it's often entirely correct.

I am quite happy to admit that maybe my idea of a brilliant striker - Costa, Torres, Owen, Fowler, RVN, Shearer, Henry, Aguero, Rush, Ferdinand, Suarez, Wright, Drogba...whoever - does not matter in this modern age of gen-gen pressing Klopp new age football, but I simply don't think Firmino is anywhere near that level.

I don't think I'm wrong, though. He isn't a great striker at all. Nowhere fucking near. But then, do we need one?
 
I think Firmino is a good player - almost every rating I've given him is 7 or above - but expecting him to lead the goalscoring and be the focal point of a title-winning team seems folly.

Who is expecting Firmino to lead the goalscoring? It seems that Klopp wants the goals spread across the front line. He is not the main striker. Klopps Liverpool doesn't have a main striker. If it did then Sturridge would play more but we don't so he doesn't.
 
If it was a the studge from the suarez / sterline year, there would not be a debate.


Big fan of studge but it is clear he has lost that yard of pace. Going from a 9 to a number 10.
 
Who is expecting Firmino to lead the goalscoring? It seems that Klopp wants the goals spread across the front line. He is not the main striker. Klopps Liverpool doesn't have a main striker. If it did then Sturridge would play more but we don't so he doesn't.

That's great.

So - AND HERE IS THE ENTIRE FUCKING POINT OF MY POST - who's scoring?

And do we feel comfortable that no team in recent memory has EVER won the title without one (or two) players scoring 15-20 league goals?

I'll wait.
 
That's great.

So - AND HERE IS THE ENTIRE FUCKING POINT OF MY POST - who's scoring?

And do we feel comfortable that no team in recent memory has EVER won the title without one (or two) players scoring 15-20 league goals?

I'll wait.

We've scored the most goals in 2016 and are leading goals scored in the league with 24 in 10 matches. We're doing alright without one so far.

Firmino could be a 15-20 goal striker this season in all honesty. 4 in 9 is a good start anyways.
 
The dawning of realisation? This is the point of everyone who has been banging their head against the wall for the past few weeks.

Oh I see!

The general agreement is that, actually, we WILL see a new dawn realised?

A new kind of team that wins the title with a main striker who scores about 10 goals....as top scorer!

A defence that is one of the worst in the league, but is part of a team so new, different and exciting that it transcends years of empirical data and evidence to eschew convention and wins the title regardless!

Oh, well. Excuse me. I didn't realise that was the consensus.
 
That's great.

So - AND HERE IS THE ENTIRE FUCKING POINT OF MY POST - who's scoring?

And do we feel comfortable that no team in recent memory has EVER won the title without one (or two) players scoring 15-20 league goals?

I'll wait.

Well I feel very comfortable that it's being spread around. Klopp has said before re the Pogba transfer 'You spend 100m and he gets injured on day one and you then have a 100m hole in your team'. I can only presume Klopp extends that logic to having a 20-30 goal a season striker in the team. He falls down broken and he's gone for 6 months, what do you do then? Or maybe he's adapted this style based in what he's got to work with added to how difficult it is to sign a striker who can achieve those numbers in the PL.

Who is scoring? The team is scoring. Every position bar GK & RB has scored a goal for the side already.
 
Oh I see!

The general agreement is that, actually, we WILL see a new dawn realised?

A new kind of team that wins the title with a main striker who scores about 10 goals....as top scorer!

A defence that is one of the worst in the league, but is part of a team so new, different and exciting that it transcends years of empirical data and evidence to eschew convention and wins the title regardless!

Oh, well. Excuse me. I didn't realise that was the consensus.

Fuck me Brendan. I'd hate to see what you'd be like if we were doing shit.
 
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The dawning of realisation? This is the point of everyone who has been banging their head against the wall for the past few weeks.

For some yeah, but I think Brendan understood that line of thinking, it's the sort of stuff like what was posted earlier about his goalscoring recording being perfectly fine because he has 4 in 9. When the bigger picture is that he has 14 in 42, which is in line with what a centre forward would get (rather than an out and out goalscorer), which wouldn't be enough as the sole focal point of a team, but it's perfectly fine as part of a front three that each weigh in with (or are capable of weighing in with) about the same.

If we take Firmino in isolation though, then his goalscoring could be better. I think the general point is that in the longterm he can be a big part of our front 3 or 4, but we could add a player who offers both the workrate Klopp's teams demand AND a regular supply of goals, through being a more clinical and specialist striker. That could surely then make us even more prolific as a team.

Put it this way. I think if you take Firmino, Coutinho or Mane out of that front three for a player we already have, then I don't think it's quite as effective, so that's where you start to see the shortcomings of those players individually in terms of goal threat and combined functionality, as well as the lack of suitability we have in reserve - Origi is still learning, Lallana doesn't score enough, while Sturridge and Ings don't seem to be ideal fits for Klopp.

We should always be looking to improve on what we've got, defensively and offensively, because it can be the difference in the longterm.
 
We won't win the league.

Reasons:

Not enough goals from our main striker
Too many goals conceded from our shit defence and keeper.

I hope that is pared down to understandable basics.

I'm totally delighted and amazed with what Klopp has done this season so far, but I find it amazing that so many seem unwilling to discuss and debate these obvious facts.
We're third, which is three places higher than I expected when asked, but can't we talk about what still needs to be done, or improvements we need to make?
 
For some yeah, but I think Brendan understood that line of thinking, it's the sort of stuff like what was posted earlier about his goalscoring recording being perfectly fine because he has 4 in 9. When the bigger picture is that he has 14 in 42, which is in line with what a centre forward would get (rather than an out and out goalscorer), which wouldn't be enough as the sole focal point of a team, but it's perfectly fine as part of a front three that each weigh in with (or are capable of weighing in with) about the same.

If we take Firmino in isolation though, then his goalscoring could be better. I think the general point is that in the longterm he can be a big part of our front 3 or 4, but we could add a player who offers both the workrate Klopp's teams demand AND a regular supply of goals, through being a more clinical and specialist striker.

Put it this way. I think if you take Firmino, Coutinho or Mane out of that front three for a player we already have, then I don't think it's quite as effective, so that's where you start to see the shortcomings of those players individually in terms of goal threat and combined functionality. We should always be looking to improve on what we've got, defensively and offensively, because it can be the difference in the longterm.

I will call you....Peter. My Rock.

Or you could be John the Baptist, but I think he gets his head cut off.
 
We're third, which is three places higher than I expected when asked, but can't we talk about what still needs to be done, or improvements we need to make?

Of course. But our front line isn't one of those topics. We're scoring more than most of our rivals so as things stand...
 
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