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Ex-Liverpool boss Benitez wanted back at Valencia

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[quote author=Richey link=topic=44572.msg1300465#msg1300465 date=1300286047]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=44572.msg1300450#msg1300450 date=1300283968]


I've bitten my lip as long as I could.
good enough for us? what the fucks that supposed to even mean? you mean not good enough for a club that hadn't won the league for 15 fucking YEARS before he even walked through the doors? we've got no devine right to the league, BLACKBURN have won the league more recently than we have.
[/quote]

I assumed that vantage wasn't being totally serious there. Might be wrong on that.

You are quite correct that we have no divine right to the league, noone in their right minds would say we have. But that doesn't really alter the fact that Benitez, for all the good he did, was ultimately a failure and had to leave. Just because the previous 14 years have been pretty bad, he was just another who was unable to turn things around.
[/quote]

Yes, I was being ironic - or at least trying to be to see if I could engage in some debate with Ross. I am a big Rafa fan and wish him only the best. We were going nowhere fast under Ged & Rafa turned us around. I beleive that the board dropped him in it & he reacted by being stubborn. If KD decided to leave in the summer I'd have him back in an instant.
 
In a fantasy land that I sometimes visit, it is totally true that Rafa has unfinished business at liverpool and in another fifteen years time, when Kenny finally retires as the most decorated manager in Premiership history he sucessfully reinfources our position, high on our perch, all the time playing attacking, exciting and entertaining football.
 
I loved what Rafa did for us for a few years but there's only one person in Liverpool who benefited from his last year here and that was whoever owned his local takeaways. Seriously, how do you put that much beef on in a year or two?
 
[quote author=the count link=topic=44572.msg1300615#msg1300615 date=1300310674]
In a fantasy land that I sometimes visit, it is totally true that Rafa has unfinished business at liverpool and in another fifteen years time, when Kenny finally retires as the most decorated manager in Premiership history he sucessfully reinfources our position, high on our perch, all the time playing attacking, exciting and entertaining football.
[/quote]

Haha. Quite!
 
[quote author=doctor_mac link=topic=44572.msg1300518#msg1300518 date=1300291141]
On some issues Rosco is considerably loopier than Rebel. The idea of Rafa scheming to join clubs behind our backs is crazy. Rosco's portrayal of the man is as mad, in fact considerably madder, than the RAWKite messianic Rafa. The man was a conrol freak, and no doubt was involved in political intrigue that was damaging the club, but it is beyond any doubt that he loved the club. And still does.
[/quote]

Good post.

He was a great manager who loves the club and embraced the city of Liverpool. Unfortunately he is divisive and has the ability to start a fight in an empty room as some one on SCM pointed out six months ago. If he learns to work under a good DOF and just focuses on the coaching part, he has the ability to be an all time great. he may get a lot of things wrong, but boy when he gets it right, the highs are unbelievable ;D.
 
[quote author=peekay link=topic=44572.msg1300677#msg1300677 date=1300334939]
[quote author=doctor_mac link=topic=44572.msg1300518#msg1300518 date=1300291141]
On some issues Rosco is considerably loopier than Rebel. The idea of Rafa scheming to join clubs behind our backs is crazy. Rosco's portrayal of the man is as mad, in fact considerably madder, than the RAWKite messianic Rafa. The man was a conrol freak, and no doubt was involved in political intrigue that was damaging the club, but it is beyond any doubt that he loved the club. And still does.
[/quote]

Good post.

He was a great manager who loves the club and embraced the city of Liverpool. Unfortunately he is divisive and has the ability to start a fight in an empty room as some one on SCM pointed out six months ago. If he learns to work under a good DOF and just focuses on the coaching part, he has the ability to be an all time great. he may get a lot of things wrong, but boy when he gets it right, the highs are unbelievable ;D.





[/quote]

Terrific post Peekay. He also has to learn to say when he screws up rather than coming up with silly excuses and "I won two trophies with Milan" BS. Makes him look like Ged at his worst. You messed up like the rest of us, fess up move on. But yes, the highs were many and incredible.
 
[quote author=cobrastatus link=topic=44572.msg1300565#msg1300565 date=1300298001]
I think he would have been fine if he had a DOF type over him, cause I think the wheels started to fall off when we handed over all the powers of the football club to him. Trouble is, he's too stubborn and self-deluded to work under a DOF, a bit of a catch-22.
[/quote]


He had one at Valencia and won 2 league titles in 3 seasons.
You're right, he couldn't take it and left for Liverpool but I'd take what Valencia got any day.
 
[quote author=peterhague link=topic=44572.msg1300501#msg1300501 date=1300289374]
i don't agree that GH was sacked because we didn't win the title.

imo had we won the champions league in 2003 and finished second in the league on goal difference, and won the champions league in 2004 and finished second in the league on goal difference, then he wouldn't have been sacked in the summer of 2004.

imo GH was sacked because he wasn't fucking good enough and because we thought we could get someone better, the same for benitez. the fact that neither won titles doesn't necessarily make them failures as far as i'm concerned.
[/quote]

Ged wasn't good enough. The only difference with Benitez was a far greater impact on Europe, you could argue that Ged put our names back on the map and then Rafa made sure it stayed there, in Europe, domestically though the difference between them was neither here nor there.

Regardless of divine right, we all know that as a club we want to be challenging for the title on a consistent basis. The argument around Hodgson and all the ridiculous backing he got in the press just exemplifies how people can get caught up in all this bullshit about not having enough money, not being left with the right players etc, when you consider the impact Kenny has had so far. His league impact has been better than our last three managers, game for game, without any moaning about a lack of funds or anything else. Why? Because he's kept it simple, done and said all the right things and focused on instilling belief in what we've got, without hanging out his dirty washing in public and moaning about what we lack. That's the difference.

And to say he didn't lie or bend the truth is bullshit, though Rosco is being typically cynical in his criticisms, I think Doc Mac is bang on. He loves the club but got caught up into too many political spats.
 
[quote author=peterhague link=topic=44572.msg1300697#msg1300697 date=1300349215]
who said he didn't lie or bend the truth, though? i don't recall anyone claiming that.
[/quote]

Fair enough, regarding Rosco's quote, you asked where the lie was. It's only a half truth at least, there's a myriad of issues surrounding what he said.

The whole Alonso saga, how the potential initial sale of him was handled and Rafa's public chase of Gareth Barry as his replacement. All this led to Alonso wanting to leave, he wasn't forced to go as a means to raise funds. The overall fees for Soto, Johnson and Aquilani is greater than the overall fee for Alonso anyway.

And while being stuck in such a terrible situation where he had to sell to buy, it was all the more imperative that he got it right, which will always raise questions over his targeting of Robbie Keane (and subsequent poor treatment of) and a perma injured Aquilani, both of whom have now gone, along with with Riera, Dossena and that £3m Brazilian goalie that we so sorely needed.

It's all been done to death anyway. There seems to be mentalists at both ends of this argument, there's RAWK and then there's the end that can see no good in the guy. The truth, as ever, lies in between.

Like I said, I like Rafa and if he goes to Valencia I hope it's a dream for him, I just hope he's learned from his political battles at Liverpool and Inter.
 
fine, that's all pretty much true. i'm still at a loss as to where rosco thinks the lie in that quote is, though. surely he's not so petty to focus on the few million more spent on the 3 players than we received from alonso's sale, firstly because it's such a minor difference, and secondly because it's not even clear from the quote that benitez is even claiming a precisely zero net outlay.
 
[quote author=peterhague link=topic=44572.msg1300703#msg1300703 date=1300350785]
fine, that's all pretty much true. i'm still at a loss as to where rosco thinks the lie in that quote is, though. surely he's not so petty to focus on the few million more spent on the 3 players than we received from alonso's sale, firstly because it's such a minor difference, and secondly because it's not even clear from the quote that benitez is even claiming a precisely zero net outlay.
[/quote]

Ok, you could say that he's implying he had to sell Alonso to buy those players. The truth may be that Alonso wanted to go, so he bought those players with the money we received. If he'd said he was pissed off that the board only released a couple of million in transfer funds that Summer, few would argue. He's implying he was somehow forced to sell Alonso, which we all know is wide of the truth.
 
I'm with the Doc on this one. When it comes to discussing Benitez, Rosco drifts off into another dimension.
 
i don't think he is implying that. he said we sold alonso and we spent the money on 3 new players - that's as much as i'm picking up. i'm sure he's said before that he liked alonso but 'in the end the player wanted to go' or some such. i find it implausible that he'd then think he could get away with trying to claim the opposite.

i just don't see any lie there. at all.
 
Rafa Benitez has moved quickly to clinch the signing of Roma's Alberto Aquilani to fill the shoes of Xabi Alonso.
The Liverpool manager revealed Alonso had made it clear in May that he wanted to go to Real Madrid, which immediately triggered a worldwide search for a new midfielder.
The Reds have agreed a £17m fee with Roma for Italy midfielder Aquilani as Alonso was passing his medical in the Spanish capital to complete the formalities of a £30million move to the Bernabeu, signing a four-year deal worth about £70,000 a week.
Benitez said: "Alberto is a very good player and I'm delighted we've reached agreement with Roma for his transfer.
"Alberto has a winning mentality and great experience in both Serie A and the Champions League.
"He has long been recognised as a top-class talent in Italy, captaining his country at both Under 19 and Under 21 levels before establishing himself in the senior national side."
As for the departing Alonso, Benitez said: "We would like to keep him but as soon as he told us that he wanted to leave we started working, looking for players and trying to do the best deal for the club.
"It has been too long, since May, that he told us he wanted to leave and after the official transfer request we were working very hard.
"The first idea was to keep him, and the second one was to find the best price and the best replacement for us."

Aquilani was always Benitez's first choice and Wigan’s Lee Cattermole is also on the short list of reinforcements.
But, with Wigan reluctant to sell, Benitez may be kept waiting to add Cattermole’s combative skills to his squad.
Madrid have declared their summer of free spending over. Their outlay since Florentino returned at president on June 1 has surpassed £220m.
It is understood they had earmarked a total budget of £260m, though they had banked on raising £75m from sales when they have actually only received £14m from offloading seven players.
Prince Alberto: Roma midfielder Alberto Aquilani
General director Jorge Valdano said: "Xabi was a very important piece. I'm delighted that what started six years ago has been completed now.
"He will immediately join the group and tomorrow he will talk to (coach Manuel) Pellegrini to see if he will go with the rest of the team to the USA.
"This is a special season, we had to do unprecedented things. With Xabi we have closed the chapter of signings. Now we have to work on the exits of professionals who won't be here next season."
Madrid want to shift at least four players before the transfer window closes. Rafael van der Vaart, Arjen Robben, Wesley Sneijder, Royston Drenthe, Klaas-Jan Huntelaar and Alvaro Negredo will all be offered to English clubs.
However, Aston Villa and Inter Milan target Sneijder's agent insists the Holland midfielder will not be leaving because he is a key part of Pellegrini's plans.
Madrid's stance closes the door on a renewed bid for Bayern Munich star Franck Ribery, who still interests Chelsea despite being hit with an £80m price-tag.
Valdano said: "With Ribery, Bayern took up a very firm position and Madrid decided to wait for another opportunity.
"With the arrival of Alvaro Arbeloa there are up to six players who can play on the wing and it is for that reason we decided to let Michel Salgado go. It was very easy to reach an agreement."
Alonso was put through the customary medical, televised by Real Madrid's TV station, and the club's chief doctor Carlos Diez said: "We carried out all the usual tests, concentrating on the musculoskeletal system because he has already had an ankle operation and we are satisfied because there are no signs anything is wrong. He is fit to join the squad."


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-1204522/Liverpool-agree-17m-Alberto-Aquilani-fee-Rafa-Benitez-reveals-knew-Xabi-Alonso-wanted-leave-May.html#ixzz1GqXsqiuA
Click to expand...
 
[quote author=peterhague link=topic=44572.msg1300708#msg1300708 date=1300352523]
i don't think he is implying that. he said we sold alonso and we spent the money on 3 new players - that's as much as i'm picking up. i'm sure he's said before that he liked alonso but 'in the end the player wanted to go' or some such. i find it implausible that he'd then think he could get away with trying to claim the opposite.

i just don't see any lie there. at all.
[/quote]

That's half the problem Pete, he always leaves things as ambiguous as possible to allow such interpretation in his favour, let's face it.

He said "You have to sell. We sold Xabi Alonso and bought Glen Johnson, Alberto Aquilani and Sotirios Kyrgiakos"

In this instance it's not even that ambiguous really. He says we had to sell to buy and then sites an example. I know where you stand over this anyway so it's pointless arguing the toss, I think that quote is pretty clear. Why use that example? We didn't 'have to sell Alonso', he wanted to go because he wanted to join Madrid and because he felt mistreated.
 
As for the departing Alonso, Benitez said: "We would like to keep him but as soon as he told us that he wanted to leave we started working, looking for players and trying to do the best deal for the club.
"It has been too long, since May, that he told us he wanted to leave and after the official transfer request we were working very hard.
"The first idea was to keep him, and the second one was to find the best price and the best replacement for us."



Which just begs the question again, why use that example? He's just tripping himself up and contradicting himself.
 
see above mate. i just don't think he's daft enough to try to make out we only sold him to fund player purchases, everyone knows what happened and he knows that we know. if there's an ambiguity in the quote then it's purely accidental imo.

[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=44572.msg1300713#msg1300713 date=1300353533]
As for the departing Alonso, Benitez said: "We would like to keep him but as soon as he told us that he wanted to leave we started working, looking for players and trying to do the best deal for the club.
"It has been too long, since May, that he told us he wanted to leave and after the official transfer request we were working very hard.
"The first idea was to keep him, and the second one was to find the best price and the best replacement for us."



Which just begs the question again, why use that example? He's just tripping himself up and contradicting himself.
[/quote]

what?! you've really lost me now!

look, i think all he was trying to say in that original quote was that there was a lack of funds, and any outlay had to be balanced by sales. if you can find something where he clearly tries to claim that he only had to sell alonso in order to buy players then knock yourself out. i'm certain you won't be able to, though.
 
I just think it's a bad example. We had to sell to buy in the end but it wasn't always the case, we were never on a par with United and Chelsea but we were on a par with the likes of Arsenal, we spent good and bad.

Using the Alonso sale as an example can lead to misinterpretation, as though we had to sell one our biggest assets to fund moves for the players we wanted that Summer, but that's only half the story. The flip side is that he had messed Alonso around which led to his departure, which in turn had a negative impact on a squad already stretched by financial restrictions.

Rafa can moan about the lack of funds in the end, fair enough, we were screwed by G&H (and the recession), everyone knows that, but another factor in the depletion of our squad was his stubborn nature and the way he handed some of the playing staff. He acknowledges what he wants to acknowledge, so he only gives half the story, or half the truth.
 
His last two summers at the club are simply indefensible.

If you plan extremely badly for the side, spend whatever money you do have on absolutely the wrong players then you're on a hiding to nothing. That's what cost him his job and it's got nothing to do with money available, owners or the recession.
 
[quote author=keniget link=topic=44572.msg1300737#msg1300737 date=1300355673]
His last two summers at the club are simply indefensible.

If you plan extremely badly for the side, spend whatever money you do have on absolutely the wrong players then you're on a hiding to nothing. That's what cost him his job and it's got nothing to do with money available, owners or the recession.
[/quote]

Indeed. Benitez had a record of buying players and then quickly getting rid of those same players. In some ways that is certainly to his credit as it is better than having a manager sticking with poor signings even when it was clear to everyone that those players were shit (Benitez did that sometimes too, but not as much as, say, Houllier did).

The downside to having that kind of turnover of players though is that when the club started struggling financially the money was no longer there from the sales of those poor signings.

So he probably thought he was on pretty safe ground buying the likes of Dossena for big money because he figured that money would be back again if it didn't work out. Sadly for him that wasn't the case.

Obviously the owners take some of the blame for this for their mismanagement, but so does Benitez for constantly making those poor signings that kept needing replacing.
 
A weird one in retrospect was Torres's form in Rafa's last season. I thought he was playing like a fanny because of the lack of morale or whatever in the dressing room, but he's continued to play like a fanny long after Rafa left. It was Rafa's fault that the poisonous little shit was our only option, but not his fault that he was a poisonous little shit.

431 mins and counting at Chelsea. 1 shot on target and 0 goals.
 
[quote author=Kenny4PM link=topic=44572.msg1300772#msg1300772 date=1300359242]
What game was it when Rafa subbed El twat and Stevie cut him "that look"?
[/quote]

Brum away I think.
 
[quote author=Krump link=topic=44572.msg1300778#msg1300778 date=1300359534]
And then Ngog hit the post after Torres had been gash all game.
[/quote]

Yup. i remember loads of people being annoyed Torres was subbed, yet n'gog did more in his 10 minute cameo than Torres did all game, or even looked like doing
 
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