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Downing

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[quote author=Ryan link=topic=44931.msg1362634#msg1362634 date=1310257696]
Foxy, Gene, Sheik, Julian, and whomever else that's banging the drum up there....

Advocating Downing as the best left wing option available, when he's just played the only good season of his career as a right winger for Aston Villa isn't helping your cause.
[/quote]

Thats not true though is it? Albrighton has been mainly played in his natutal position as a right winger. Young has been behind the striker and Downing on the left. Albrighton and Downing swap poistions quite a bit during matches though. But whose to say being versatile isnt a good thing.

And why cant people put forward some other names when they so blatently think Downing is mediocre.
 
[quote author=Kenny4PM link=topic=44931.msg1362569#msg1362569 date=1310243852]
Just out of interest if Downing is the only LW target we have who will come to us, would you spend £20mil on him or go without and wait until January?
[/quote]

if you can't get anyone in the summer window, you would be double fucked in January due to less availability and higher prices
 
The point of dragging up those old quotes by posters advocating spending 20 (fucking) million pound on Downing is this - he is the same player now that he was then. Nothing vastly different has changed, he's just a bit older and a bit closer to the end of his top level career. The quotes were surprisingly perfect - FFF advocating a foreign gamble who doesn't really play as an out and out winger, Hansern comparing Riera and Downing as very similar, Sheik saying he was shit, Mark saying he's not the sort of attacking player we should be wasting money on.

What's changed in the last couple of years to warrant the polar opposite opinions being held now ? Kenny in charge as opposed to Rafa ? You need to really consider your logic there if that is the main reason.

The fact of the matter is that when you get into the category of 20m pound players you're entering the price range which can land top level talent (if you're spending it right), look at Suarez at 22m - very few players have the technical ability he does. Dozens of players can play left wing and stick decent crosses in the box, let's buy one of them for a sensible price. Downing is not going to be available for a sensible price so we should just move on.
 
For the record I'd be very reluctant to pay that much, but he did win me over last season, I thought he really came into his own. I agree about the age thing though, he's reaching his peak and how long he can sustain that has to be considered. That said, I don't see many other options knocking about, Mata is arguably out of our range and N'Zogbia is a nutcase.
 
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=44931.msg1362735#msg1362735 date=1310292385]
For the record I'd be very reluctant to pay that much, but he did win me over last season, I thought he really came into his own. [/quote]

... On the right wing.
 
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=44931.msg1362732#msg1362732 date=1310291664]
The point of dragging up those old quotes by posters advocating spending 20 (fucking) million pound on Downing is this - he is the same player now that he was then. Nothing vastly different has changed, he's just a bit older and a bit closer to the end of his top level career. The quotes were surprisingly perfect - FFF advocating a foreign gamble who doesn't really play as an out and out winger, Hansern comparing Riera and Downing as very similar, Sheik saying he was shit, Mark saying he's not the sort of attacking player we should be wasting money on.

What's changed in the last couple of years to warrant the polar opposite opinions being held now ? Kenny in charge as opposed to Rafa ? You need to really consider your logic there if that is the main reason.

The fact of the matter is that when you get into the category of 20m pound players you're entering the price range which can land top level talent (if you're spending it right), look at Suarez at 22m - very few players have the technical ability he does. Dozens of players can play left wing and stick decent crosses in the box, let's buy one of them for a sensible price. Downing is not going to be available for a sensible price so we should just move on.


[/quote]

X infinity
 
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=44931.msg1362735#msg1362735 date=1310292385]
For the record I'd be very reluctant to pay that much, but he did win me over last season, I thought he really came into his own. I agree about the age thing though, he's reaching his peak and how long he can sustain that has to be considered. That said, I don't see many other options knocking about, Mata is arguably out of our range and N'Zogbia is a nutcase.
[/quote]

Realistically Mark, how soon do you see us challenging for a title ? Two years time ? Where will Downing be then - will he be performing like he did last season or will he need replacing because we need better for a league winning side ?

I think it's the latter, and that's why buying him would be such a bad idea. He isn't going to transform our side into a title winning team. The deal is likely to be 20m plus 4m a year wages for 4 years. He won't be as effective in two years time and we'll be paying him (and Villa) very nice money. It's a continuation of the kind of bad dealings that took us to 7th in the league.

If we absolutely have to get a left winger, and Mata isn't available, we decide that N'Zogbia is a headcase and not worth the risk then I would prefer to pick up a cheap foreign option who can do a job on a shortish contract (Maxi-like but not at 100k a week). It won't hamper us in the long term the way a Downing deal would and it fills a short term need .

Absent silly money I think teams rise and fall in cycles, and we've had the downward cycle since 09, I think we've bottomed out and are about to rise again. I think a deal like Downing is all about the timing - if you're coming to the top of that cycle and on the cusp of a Championship with a left wing gap to fill then the Downing deal makes sense. If you're still a good bit away from being a real title challenger then the Downing deal makes you better in the immediate future but not good enough to challenge and it hampers you're future chances of challenging because of the money you've spent. I'd rather not challenge with the prospect of money available for the right players, than not challenge with Downing and with less money being available for the right players.
 
I think if we can get him at the top of his game for two to three seasons it can be significant to any challenge we put up. I don't think he's World Class in the way Suarez is, but few are. He's not flashy nor the most fashionable of players, but the end product is there, regardless and he has always struck me as the type of player who'll run through brick walls for his team. I'm torn Ross to be honest, I don't see many other options out there, I think he's better than many are recognising and he ticks all the right boxes for the 'team', the biggest issue has always been the price though, that much I agree with.
 
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=44931.msg1362732#msg1362732 date=1310291664]
The point of dragging up those old quotes by posters advocating spending 20 (fucking) million pound on Downing is this - he is the same player now that he was then. Nothing vastly different has changed, he's just a bit older and a bit closer to the end of his top level career. The quotes were surprisingly perfect - FFF advocating a foreign gamble who doesn't really play as an out and out winger, Hansern comparing Riera and Downing as very similar, Sheik saying he was shit, Mark saying he's not the sort of attacking player we should be wasting money on.

What's changed in the last couple of years to warrant the polar opposite opinions being held now ? Kenny in charge as opposed to Rafa ? You need to really consider your logic there if that is the main reason.

The fact of the matter is that when you get into the category of 20m pound players you're entering the price range which can land top level talent (if you're spending it right), look at Suarez at 22m - very few players have the technical ability he does. Dozens of players can play left wing and stick decent crosses in the box, let's buy one of them for a sensible price. Downing is not going to be available for a sensible price so we should just move on.
[/quote]

You win the thread.
 
Again, I think most people are generally concern about the price quoted, but not downing's ability.

Whether we're aiming for a Champions League spot, or aiming for the grand prize, we still need squad players like downing. Would you have prefer players like ji-sung park, antonio valencia, bennayoun, zhirkov ahead of downing?
 
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=44931.msg1362634#msg1362634 date=1310257696]
Foxy, Gene, Sheik, Julian, and whomever else that's banging the drum up there....

Advocating Downing as the best left wing option available, when he's just played the only good season of his career as a right winger for Aston Villa isn't helping your cause.
[/quote]

I wasn't advocating Downing as the best option available. Try reading things before making shit up Ryan.
 
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=44931.msg1362732#msg1362732 date=1310291664]
The point of dragging up those old quotes by posters advocating spending 20 (fucking) million pound on Downing is this - he is the same player now that he was then. Nothing vastly different has changed, he's just a bit older and a bit closer to the end of his top level career. The quotes were surprisingly perfect - FFF advocating a foreign gamble who doesn't really play as an out and out winger, Hansern comparing Riera and Downing as very similar, Sheik saying he was shit, Mark saying he's not the sort of attacking player we should be wasting money on.

What's changed in the last couple of years to warrant the polar opposite opinions being held now ? Kenny in charge as opposed to Rafa ? You need to really consider your logic there if that is the main reason.

The fact of the matter is that when you get into the category of 20m pound players you're entering the price range which can land top level talent (if you're spending it right), look at Suarez at 22m - very few players have the technical ability he does. Dozens of players can play left wing and stick decent crosses in the box, let's buy one of them for a sensible price. Downing is not going to be available for a sensible price so we should just move on.
[/quote]

Great post.

Fingers crossed we do move on and Villa get even more determined to keep him.
 
Barnes, bar THAT goal for England did fuck all on the international stage, & wasn't exactly creating headlines at Watford.

Whilst I don't think Downing is or will be on par with Barnes he's a shitload better than most people are giving him credit for.

Anyway, after the amount of trouble we've gone to, the fact Comolli is advising Downing & the fact we've bid three times, we're getting him like it or not, so I know I'll be proved right.

BTW, somewhat missed was the comparison with Ripley at Blackburn. Turned out alright for them.

*gives up for the second time*
 
[quote author=FoxForceFive link=topic=44931.msg1362767#msg1362767 date=1310298607]
Barnes, bar THAT goal for England did fuck all on the international stage, & wasn't exactly creating headlines at Watford.

Whilst I don't think Downing is or will be on par with Barnes he's a shitload better than most people are giving him credit for.

Anyway, after the amount of trouble we've gone to, the fact Comolli is advising Downing & the fact we've bid three times, we're getting him like it or not, so I know I'll be proved right.

BTW, somewhat missed was the comparison with Ripley at Blackburn. Turned out alright for them.

*gives up for the second time*
[/quote]

I made a similar point in a different way earlier. Sometimes we have to be prepared to overpay to secure a signing we need. That's what you do if your aggressive in the transfer market and its what Alex Ferguson does all the time. FSG are reknowned for doing that. We have the money so cost shouldn't be an issue if we wnt that particular player.
 
Fergie's done it for years mate, you're spot on. A lot of Utd fans moan when he does too, but they don't moan when he wins trophies.
 
You believe the difference between a league title and not winning a league title is Downing ?
 
Not necessarily the difference between winning or not, but I believe the difference in two to three places in the league is getting a dedicated quality left winger, so it could well be, I'm more likely to think the difference between 5th & 3rd.

Add a left winger, left back to our side & we have, of the first time in forever, an entire left side that are actually left sided players, from front to back.

The benefits of that are massive in terms of breaking & allowing maximum flexibility, & creates the most available space & time for everyone.

It's not just one player, it's the overall effect to the team & I don't think you, or many on here are considering that. Utd have always had balance cos Fergie strives for that, his side benefits no end as a result.
 
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=44931.msg1362771#msg1362771 date=1310299276]
You believe the difference between a league title and not winning a league title is Downing ?
[/quote]

At the end of the day Ross, we're building a side, a unit. It's not about signing one player that's the difference and I'm surprised for someone who's wholly against that kind of superstar mentality, that you're taking that sort of stance. Would he improve us? Yeah of course he would, we need balance and him, Adam and a left back in tandem will improve us massively.

I know there's alot of uncertainty surrounding our transfer business and I know we discussed this last week, but there may still be an element of the unknown and enquiries being made that we know little or nothing about. The bigger picture is more important and it's not really a question of Downing being THE difference between 6th and challenging, it's about whether the team has improved significantly enough and despite the lack of the glamour factor, I think him signing would go someway to achieving that.
 
[quote author=SaintGeorge67 link=topic=44931.msg1362781#msg1362781 date=1310301474]
But no top 4 team would want him etc
[/quote]

Course not, because he's mediocre and has been shit for England.
 
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=44931.msg1362777#msg1362777 date=1310301027]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=44931.msg1362771#msg1362771 date=1310299276]
You believe the difference between a league title and not winning a league title is Downing ?
[/quote]

At the end of the day Ross, we're building a side, a unit. It's not about signing one player that's the difference and I'm surprised for someone who's wholly against that kind of superstar mentality, that you're taking that sort of stance. Would he improve us? Yeah of course he would, we need balance and him, Adam and a left back in tandem will improve us massively.

I know there's alot of uncertainty surrounding our transfer business and I know we discussed this last week, but there may still be an element of the unknown and enquiries being made that we know little or nothing about. The bigger picture is more important and it's not really a question of Downing being THE difference between 6th and challenging, it's about whether the team has improved significantly enough and despite the lack of the glamour factor, I think him signing would go someway to achieving that.
[/quote]

You say yourself you have doubts about how long he'll perform for, he improves us for next season no doubt. But probably for not a whole lot longer than the season after that.
We're paying a huge premium for a marginal short term upgrade. In my book it's okay to do that if it results in trophies in the short term, I don't think it will result in that though. And I don't think Downing will be the difference between CL spots and not. I think we'll get a CL spot this year because of other improvements already - a full season of Carroll and Suarez, Henderson, less of Lucas etc.

I am absolutely certain in two years time we'll be complaining of needing better than Downing and still have no trophies to show for it - and that's why I don't think he warrants such an outlay.
 
You're putting alot of onus on him being the difference between success and failure, it's not just about him, that was my point. We'll be the sum of our parts and I think he'll make a big difference. I do agree about the longevity but I do think he can be a success and help us win things.
 
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=44931.msg1362785#msg1362785 date=1310302115]
You're putting alot of onus on him being the difference between success and failure, it's not just about him, that was my point. We'll be the sum of our parts and I think he'll make a big difference. I do agree about the longevity but I do think he can be a success and help us win things.
[/quote]

Because we're operating on a limited budget, and a huge chunk of that budget is going to be spent on him.

If we're going to pay a top level price for him, he should have the impact of a top level player. He won't. It will be money wasted to see us become less mediocre.
 
Fair enough, like I said last week though, I think we're pretty much in the dark about money. Looks like he'll be joining us or Arsenal anyway so he's in for a big season either way. I just want this window over now, I'm anxious to see what the finished article will be.
 
So with us and arsenal 'fighting' for him does it mean he is better than people think ? or are Arsenal desperate ? or Is there a lack of talent out there ?

Wonder if he's fed up with our 'slow' negotiations and might just jump at the arsenal move . I mean they have champs league football and he's never played it so I wouldn't be surprised if he fucks us off .

And regardless if you want him or not , it seems the club do , so what does it say if we lose out on him when we're already lost out on Jones , Young , Wickham & Clichy this summer . Are we moving too slow , not willing to pay the prices or suffering from having no champs league to offer ?. Really hits home that step 1 has to be "get champions league football" ....god knows when we'll ever properly challenge again .
 
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