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Downing

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[quote author=Sheik Yerbouti link=topic=44931.msg1362585#msg1362585 date=1310245337]
[quote author=KopKing link=topic=44931.msg1362583#msg1362583 date=1310245084]
This is an interesting debate. It's astounding that some posters think they know more about players' abilities, valuations and what Liverpool need more than King Kenny. If KK wants him, that's more than good enough for me.
[/quote]

To be fair, he did buy Nicky Tanner.


[/quote]

That was Parry, mate.
 
[quote author=gene hughes link=topic=44931.msg1362474#msg1362474 date=1310231761]
How the fuck should I know? All I'm saying is that the value of a player isn't absolute.
[/quote]

It isn't Gene. And it's an excellent point, and one I was hoping someone would raise.

It would be stupid to weigh a player's contributions purely in terms of his production (and in the case of defenders or midfielders it'd be extremely difficult to quantify their productivity anyway). Though it's much easier to do so for attacking players as their end product is what you play them for primarily anyway. Having said that, it'd be myopic not to consider other intangibles. For instance, attaking players with pace and skill contribute significantly (other than goals and assists) by pulling full-backs out of position, or by forcing the the defence to play deeper and thereby creating significant attacking advantage in terms of space.

In Downing's case, I've thrown his stats about regularly (36 goals, 53 assists in 10 seasons in the PL (about 8 active ones though)) and it isn't entirely fair to judge him purely on that, as he would with his ability to stay out wide, and cross consistently, provide an outlet and balance to the attack.

Unfortunately, I don't think he'd provide anything more in terms of intangible value other than 'balance'. And if it's only 'balance' you want, surely we'd be better served looking at Jarvis or Brunt, who're both younger and would be a lot cheaper?

Of course, that's purely for arguments sake, because IMO we need a lot more in terms of intangible value than 'balance'. We need pace and skill and a lot more actual production than we'd get from Downing, or Jarvis, or Brunt or any other similar player.
 
[quote author=dmishra link=topic=44931.msg1362595#msg1362595 date=1310247138]
[quote author=gene hughes link=topic=44931.msg1362474#msg1362474 date=1310231761]
How the fuck should I know? All I'm saying is that the value of a player isn't absolute.
[/quote]

It isn't Gene. And it's an excellent point, and one I was hoping someone would raise.

It would be stupid to weigh a player's contributions purely in terms of his production (and in the case of defenders or midfielders it'd be extremely difficult to quantify their productivity anyway). Though it's much easier to do so for attacking players as their end product is what you play them for primarily anyway. Having said that, it'd be myopic not to consider other intangibles. For instance, attaking players with pace and skill contribute significantly (other than goals and assists) by pulling full-backs out of position, or by forcing the the defence to play deeper and thereby creating significant attacking advantage in terms of space.

In Downing's case, I've thrown his stats about regularly (36 goals, 53 assists in 10 seasons in the PL (about 8 active ones though)) and it isn't entirely fair to judge him purely on that, as he would with his ability to stay out wide, and cross consistently, provide an outlet and balance to the attack.

Unfortunately, I don't think he'd provide anything more in terms of intangible value other than 'balance'. And if it's only 'balance' you want, surely we'd be better served looking at Jarvis or Brunt, who're both younger and would be a lot cheaper?

Of course, that's purely for arguments sake, because IMO we need a lot more in terms of intangible value than 'balance'. We need pace and skill and a lot more actual production than we'd get from Downing, or Jarvis, or Brunt or any other similar player.
[/quote]

Downing offers a lot more than 'balance' mate.
 
[quote author=gene hughes link=topic=44931.msg1362593#msg1362593 date=1310246789]
That was Parry, mate.
[/quote]

From the Offal:

"Kenny Dalglish moved to snap-up Nick Tanner from Bristol Rovers for £20,000 in 1988."

http://www.liverpoolfc.tv/history/past-players/nick-tanner

From Wikipedia:

"Parry was appointed as chief executive at Liverpool in July 1998, by then chairman David Moores."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rick_Parry

According to Wikipedia, in 1988 when Kenny Dalglish moved to snap up Nick Tanner, Rick Parry was employed as a senior management consultant with leading UK firm Ernst & Young. 😉
 
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=44931.msg1362603#msg1362603 date=1310249484]
Fuck me you lot could bore for England.
[/quote] Shut it yer tit
 
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=44931.msg1362603#msg1362603 date=1310249484]
Fuck me you lot could bore on the left wing for England.


[/quote]

Steady!
 
[quote author=SaintGeorge67 link=topic=44931.msg1362604#msg1362604 date=1310249525]
Haha. It seems everyone made their points about 2 weeks or so ago, and have been repeating them daily!
[/quote] I'm new to this.
 
I like Downing, but he's not worth the £18M we'll be expected to pay and therefore should look elsewhere.
 
[quote author=kingjulian link=topic=44931.msg1362552#msg1362552 date=1310241398]
[quote author=Fabio link=topic=44931.msg1362532#msg1362532 date=1310237956]
I understand the comparison, I do. Honestly. But I think people are using riera to beat downing with as riera never set anything alight.

Downing offers more ability with more consistency. Something we've missed for a good few years.
[/quote]

Riera never set anything alight. Downing never set anything alight, he won't too.

Downing is quicker but not by much and Albert Riera still has the better touch and was better at beating a man and getting to the bi-line. Downing has a crossing accuracy of 24%, in our team he wont get as many chance to play crosses in all day long in the hope that one of them clicks. The season before Pennant signed people were crowing about how he had delivered the highest number of crosses in the league for Birmingham. He didn't really get to deliver all those crosses for us, did he? Riera has actually scored from set-pieces, and also lets face it, with Adam in and others like Gerrard, Aurelio, Meireles in the team ....it's safe to assume Downing won't be on the set-piece duty for us. Just as he is never given that duty for England. So it is a moot-point. Better mentality.....if we paid nearly 12million pound more for better mentality, i don't really know what to say.

Their goals/assist statistics are pretty much identical.....so there is every reason to beat down the proposed Downing sighing with Riera, to suggest it's a ridiculous comparison is preposterous and not a very constructive way of arguing this.

From EPL i'd rather we signed Matt Jarvis or N'Zogbia based on the below stats. Plus, they would cost a damned sight less than 20 million.

Wingers_Img1.png


Wingers_Img21.png


Wingers_Img31.png


http://www.anfieldindex.com/2553/liverpool-fc-transfers-premier-league-winger-scouting-stats.html

Yet, we have some claiming here that Downing has to be the one and only player we go after and we should spend whatever they ask for him.
[/quote]

Great bit of work, but I suppose the biggest thing is we now have one of the best arial players in the PL league, and if some are to believed, may be the best headerer of the ball in a generation. Now Downing's stat of 79 accurate crosses stuck out like a sore thumb. With Carroll to aim for, that could be devastating.
 
Carroll must be a big influencing factor as it looks like we wre trying to build the team around him.

I don't want us to sign peddle but I can still see the logic when we need to get the ball into Carroll since he can cross the ball well.
 
Foxy, Gene, Sheik, Julian, and whomever else that's banging the drum up there....

Advocating Downing as the best left wing option available, when he's just played the only good season of his career as a right winger for Aston Villa isn't helping your cause.
 
[quote author=kingjulian link=topic=44931.msg1362515#msg1362515 date=1310234588]
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=44931.msg1362511#msg1362511 date=1310233965]

Errr.. that's a pretty shit argument, Riera had his best spell of International recognition when he (briefly) played for us, where's his Spain call ups now?

Riera made 16 appearances for Spain, to Downing's 27 England appearances. Proper homework done there.
[/quote]

Errr...My argument was - if you really believe comparing Riera and Downing was ridiculous because Downing is so much superior to Riera then you are biased and not fit to argue in this debate. Do you disagree with that?

Because "Riera had his best spell of International recognition when he (briefly) played for us, where's his Spain call ups now?" .....irrelevant point to this debate. Doesn't matter a diddly squat.

Getting into that Spain is a mark of quality as they can easily field two teams that are comforably better than anything England can field and especially in the midfield. Rierra has done that which is a better amount. So there is no shame in comparing the two of them...which is this ridiculous thing Rosco had just said(OMG..right???) .If you are going to hang on to the semantics of the actual number of appearance and ignore the real point....be my guest...
[/quote]


Yeah ok, selective shite that's not worth replying to? TICK!

Arbeloa and Riera both forced their way into the Spain squad because they played for us, so it's a stupid argument. So what is your real point? That you think Downing is shit? Congratulations on having an opinion.

We're biased because we're comparing Riera to Downing?? Get a fucking grip. Oh sorry, I'm not fit to argue this debate, because I have an opinion.

Patronising? TICK!
 
Gene, there's a ditch down the end of the road, we used to scare the kids by telling them there was trolls down there, I now have a new deterrent.
 
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=44931.msg1362676#msg1362676 date=1310261459]
What a fucking patronising tit.

Gene, there's a ditch down the end of the road, we used to scare the kids by telling them there was trolls down there, I now have a new deterrent.
[/quote]Alright Marky, its late, chill out.
 
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=44931.msg1362678#msg1362678 date=1310261559]
Ha... I am, he's just rattled my cage with his stupid fucking reply.
[/quote]Its chinese dentist time.
 
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=44931.msg1362680#msg1362680 date=1310261639]
*disclaimer, it wasn't trolls, it was elves.
[/quote]

elvis-presley.jpg
 
The flip side of this is that KingJulian must only post on issues where he has no opinion, which kinda makes sense.
 
ARSENE WENGER is trying to hijack TWO Liverpool deals for Stewart Downing and Jose Enrique.

And Gunners boss Arsene Wenger has also VOWED to make Manchester United wait as long as possible in their attempt to sign Samir Nasri.

Wenger has revived his interest in Villa’s England winger Downing and is ready to make a £20million bid.

Liverpool have been leading the chase for Downing, 26, and last week had a £15m offer rejected.

And Kop boss Kenny Dalglish has also been eyeing Newcastle’s Enrique to solve his problem position at left- back.

Newcastle want £8m for the Spanish star, 25, and there have been claims for weeks from Merseyside sources that he will end up at Anfield.

But that deal – like the Kop move for Downing – is now threatened by Arsenal, who need a replacement for defender Gael Clichy, following his £7m switch to Manchester City.

Mega-rich City also want Nasri, 24, but United appear to be in pole position to clinch a £19m deal.

Boss Wenger is standing firm and will try to persuade the talented Frenchman to stay at The Emirates but, if he fails, the Gunners boss is threatening to delay Nasri’s departure until the last minute of the transfer window.

Wenger wants to make it as difficult as possible for United or City to poach Nasri, who has one year remaining on his contract with the north London side.

Liverpool boss Dalglish is determined to land Downing this week – but has already got another player in mind, just in case he can’t get his man.

King Kenny has been keeping an eye on Valencia winger Juan Mata, a target for Tottenham and Arsenal, who is an alternative signing along with Manchester City’s £15m-rated Adam Johnson.

But Dalglish’s first priority is Downing. Aston Villa have already rejected a £15m bid for the England star but Dalglish will up his offer with the approval of owner John W Henry and chairman Tom Werner, who are delivering on their promise to back the Kop boss in the transfer market.

Jordan Henderson has been joined in the Liverpool ranks by Blackpool’s Charlie Adam and Roma keeper Alexander Doni is set to sign tomorrow on a free transfer. Dalglish would love to add Downing to that impressive list but he won’t be too downhearted if the deal slips through his fingers.

He said: “We won’t get everyone we are after this summer but other clubs won’t always get who they have enquired about.

“That’s just the way it is. We’ve done some business already and we’ll continue to do what we are doing in a responsible manner. The owners know what they are doing and we have had great support from them.

“They know not to bankrupt the club and are running Liverpool in the right way.

“John and Tom will give us whatever they can afford. We have to use that responsibly.”

But with Wenger now in the running, the American owners may have spend more of that cash than they first thought.
Click to expand...
 
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