S
Squiggles
Guest
Has getting our first choice target always worked for us, Neil?
It's a ridiculous point.
It's a ridiculous point.
Downing
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[quote author=Rosco link=topic=44931.msg1362349#msg1362349 date=1310216391]
[quote author=Hansern link=topic=44931.msg1362316#msg1362316 date=1310212887]
If he's Kennys first choice as LW, then we should certainly do everything we can to get him. We've been down the road of going for cheaper 2nd options for far to many times, it never works out.
[/quote]
Buying decent players for about twice what they're worth never works out either.
If Downing is Kenny's first choice then Kenny needs his head examined
[/quote]
Absolutely.
[quote author=Hansern link=topic=44931.msg1362316#msg1362316 date=1310212887]
If he's Kennys first choice as LW, then we should certainly do everything we can to get him. We've been down the road of going for cheaper 2nd options for far to many times, it never works out.
[/quote]
Buying decent players for about twice what they're worth never works out either.
If Downing is Kenny's first choice then Kenny needs his head examined
[/quote]
Absolutely.
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=44931.msg1362349#msg1362349 date=1310216391]
[quote author=Hansern link=topic=44931.msg1362316#msg1362316 date=1310212887]
If he's Kennys first choice as LW, then we should certainly do everything we can to get him. We've been down the road of going for cheaper 2nd options for far to many times, it never works out.
[/quote]
Buying decent players for about twice what they're worth never works out either.
If Downing is Kenny's first choice then Kenny needs his head examined
[/quote]
Exactly.
[quote author=Hansern link=topic=44931.msg1362316#msg1362316 date=1310212887]
If he's Kennys first choice as LW, then we should certainly do everything we can to get him. We've been down the road of going for cheaper 2nd options for far to many times, it never works out.
[/quote]
Buying decent players for about twice what they're worth never works out either.
If Downing is Kenny's first choice then Kenny needs his head examined
[/quote]
Exactly.
[quote author=FoxForceFive link=topic=44931.msg1362305#msg1362305 date=1310210935]
Whilst I agree 25m is way too high, 'average no name' is fucking offensive & way ott.
[/quote]
It's about as accurate a description I can think of. He's 27, played his entire career for mid-table Premiership sides with a production comparable to the likes of Leon Osman and Morten Gamst Pedersen. Who're both average no-names.
As for his value, a good yardstick for comparison is Kuyt, who we bought when he was 26 for about 10m. Now considering his Downing's productivity over the last 5 years has been inferior to Kuyt's and he has no significant advantage in terms of either pace or skill over Kuyt (or whatever little he has gets negated by Kuyt's superior work rate), I'd say his value is about 6-8m. We're looking to pay something in the range of two and a half times that amount. I understand that you need to pay a premium for English players and I can accept that in case of players like Carroll and Henderson who have the 'potential' to be worth what they cost over the course of their entire career (provided of course they stick around). I see absolutely no reason to do that for Downing, when he will offer us, at the best 3-4 years of average productivity (read about 25 goals and 25 assists).
Whilst I agree 25m is way too high, 'average no name' is fucking offensive & way ott.
[/quote]
It's about as accurate a description I can think of. He's 27, played his entire career for mid-table Premiership sides with a production comparable to the likes of Leon Osman and Morten Gamst Pedersen. Who're both average no-names.
As for his value, a good yardstick for comparison is Kuyt, who we bought when he was 26 for about 10m. Now considering his Downing's productivity over the last 5 years has been inferior to Kuyt's and he has no significant advantage in terms of either pace or skill over Kuyt (or whatever little he has gets negated by Kuyt's superior work rate), I'd say his value is about 6-8m. We're looking to pay something in the range of two and a half times that amount. I understand that you need to pay a premium for English players and I can accept that in case of players like Carroll and Henderson who have the 'potential' to be worth what they cost over the course of their entire career (provided of course they stick around). I see absolutely no reason to do that for Downing, when he will offer us, at the best 3-4 years of average productivity (read about 25 goals and 25 assists).
S
Squiggles
Guest
Downing's true value is around what Villa paid for him originally.
£12-13M. I wouldn't mind paying a bit more, but there has to be a very clear limit.
£12-13M. I wouldn't mind paying a bit more, but there has to be a very clear limit.
Did they really pay that much
Wow, I thought it was 6 or 7
Wow, I thought it was 6 or 7
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=44931.msg1362368#msg1362368 date=1310218970]
Downing's true value is around what Villa paid for him originally.
£12-13M. I wouldn't mind paying a bit more, but there has to be a very clear limit.
[/quote]
You're therefore wrong.
A player is worth whatever a club is prepared to pay for him, no matter what we as fans say.
He was worth 12-13m when he went to Villa. He's since not only improved but the value of English players has rocketed.
Therefore he's worth a fair bit more than 12-13m.
Downing's true value is around what Villa paid for him originally.
£12-13M. I wouldn't mind paying a bit more, but there has to be a very clear limit.
[/quote]
You're therefore wrong.
A player is worth whatever a club is prepared to pay for him, no matter what we as fans say.
He was worth 12-13m when he went to Villa. He's since not only improved but the value of English players has rocketed.
Therefore he's worth a fair bit more than 12-13m.
[quote author=dmishra link=topic=44931.msg1362365#msg1362365 date=1310218586]
[quote author=FoxForceFive link=topic=44931.msg1362305#msg1362305 date=1310210935]
Whilst I agree 25m is way too high, 'average no name' is fucking offensive & way ott.
[/quote]
It's about as accurate a description I can think of. He's 27, played his entire career for mid-table Premiership sides with a production comparable to the likes of Leon Osman and Morten Gamst Pedersen. Who're both average no-names.
As for his value, a good yardstick for comparison is Kuyt, who we bought when he was 26 for about 10m. Now considering his Downing's productivity over the last 5 years has been inferior to Kuyt's and he has no significant advantage in terms of either pace or skill over Kuyt (or whatever little he has gets negated by Kuyt's superior work rate), I'd say his value is about 6-8m. We're looking to pay something in the range of two and a half times that amount. I understand that you need to pay a premium for English players and I can accept that in case of players like Carroll and Henderson who have the 'potential' to be worth what they cost over the course of their entire career (provided of course they stick around). I see absolutely no reason to do that for Downing, when he will offer us, at the best 3-4 years of average productivity (read about 25 goals and 25 assists).
[/quote]
6-8m?? Hahahahahaha. Go take a reality pill.
[quote author=FoxForceFive link=topic=44931.msg1362305#msg1362305 date=1310210935]
Whilst I agree 25m is way too high, 'average no name' is fucking offensive & way ott.
[/quote]
It's about as accurate a description I can think of. He's 27, played his entire career for mid-table Premiership sides with a production comparable to the likes of Leon Osman and Morten Gamst Pedersen. Who're both average no-names.
As for his value, a good yardstick for comparison is Kuyt, who we bought when he was 26 for about 10m. Now considering his Downing's productivity over the last 5 years has been inferior to Kuyt's and he has no significant advantage in terms of either pace or skill over Kuyt (or whatever little he has gets negated by Kuyt's superior work rate), I'd say his value is about 6-8m. We're looking to pay something in the range of two and a half times that amount. I understand that you need to pay a premium for English players and I can accept that in case of players like Carroll and Henderson who have the 'potential' to be worth what they cost over the course of their entire career (provided of course they stick around). I see absolutely no reason to do that for Downing, when he will offer us, at the best 3-4 years of average productivity (read about 25 goals and 25 assists).
[/quote]
6-8m?? Hahahahahaha. Go take a reality pill.
[quote author=dmishra link=topic=44931.msg1362365#msg1362365 date=1310218586]
[quote author=FoxForceFive link=topic=44931.msg1362305#msg1362305 date=1310210935]
Whilst I agree 25m is way too high, 'average no name' is fucking offensive & way ott.
[/quote]
It's about as accurate a description I can think of. He's 27, played his entire career for mid-table Premiership sides with a production comparable to the likes of Leon Osman and Morten Gamst Pedersen. Who're both average no-names.
As for his value, a good yardstick for comparison is Kuyt, who we bought when he was 26 for about 10m. Now considering his Downing's productivity over the last 5 years has been inferior to Kuyt's and he has no significant advantage in terms of either pace or skill over Kuyt (or whatever little he has gets negated by Kuyt's superior work rate), I'd say his value is about 6-8m. We're looking to pay something in the range of two and a half times that amount. I understand that you need to pay a premium for English players and I can accept that in case of players like Carroll and Henderson who have the 'potential' to be worth what they cost over the course of their entire career (provided of course they stick around). I see absolutely no reason to do that for Downing, when he will offer us, at the best 3-4 years of average productivity (read about 25 goals and 25 assists).
[/quote]
Kuyt's a shit yardstick, though:
1. as you say, he's not english, and importantly came from an inferior foreign league where success is no great indicator of success in the PL, hence prices are depressed because of that greater element of risk.
2. the trasfer was 5 years ago now. prices have moved on a fair bit since then.
personally i'd say downing's 'worth' around £12-14m.
[quote author=FoxForceFive link=topic=44931.msg1362305#msg1362305 date=1310210935]
Whilst I agree 25m is way too high, 'average no name' is fucking offensive & way ott.
[/quote]
It's about as accurate a description I can think of. He's 27, played his entire career for mid-table Premiership sides with a production comparable to the likes of Leon Osman and Morten Gamst Pedersen. Who're both average no-names.
As for his value, a good yardstick for comparison is Kuyt, who we bought when he was 26 for about 10m. Now considering his Downing's productivity over the last 5 years has been inferior to Kuyt's and he has no significant advantage in terms of either pace or skill over Kuyt (or whatever little he has gets negated by Kuyt's superior work rate), I'd say his value is about 6-8m. We're looking to pay something in the range of two and a half times that amount. I understand that you need to pay a premium for English players and I can accept that in case of players like Carroll and Henderson who have the 'potential' to be worth what they cost over the course of their entire career (provided of course they stick around). I see absolutely no reason to do that for Downing, when he will offer us, at the best 3-4 years of average productivity (read about 25 goals and 25 assists).
[/quote]
Kuyt's a shit yardstick, though:
1. as you say, he's not english, and importantly came from an inferior foreign league where success is no great indicator of success in the PL, hence prices are depressed because of that greater element of risk.
2. the trasfer was 5 years ago now. prices have moved on a fair bit since then.
personally i'd say downing's 'worth' around £12-14m.
Downing is worth about 9 million if you want to pay over the odds for him pay 14. Any more than that and you can buy a better player. 20 million can get you world class players. Downing is just not that good.
Where's this world class left winger who is available for 20m & willing to play for us?
Anyone? It keeps getting mentioned, time & again, yet I've no idea how anyone knows there's a world class left winger there who wants to play for us & is available for 20m.
I'm more amazed that our staff at the club don't know TBH.
Anyone? It keeps getting mentioned, time & again, yet I've no idea how anyone knows there's a world class left winger there who wants to play for us & is available for 20m.
I'm more amazed that our staff at the club don't know TBH.
S
Squiggles
Guest
I can't believe some people think Downing has the talent to be worth £18M+
It really boggles the mind.
And I actually quite rate him.
It really boggles the mind.
And I actually quite rate him.
He's a decent player and will improve us. He may not be world class but it's not as simple as saying leta buy a world class player instead.
The fee's not my problem. I don't really care what LFC choose to pay. If they want him, they want him.
The fee's not my problem. I don't really care what LFC choose to pay. If they want him, they want him.
[quote author=SaintGeorge67 link=topic=44931.msg1362387#msg1362387 date=1310220683]
He's a decent player and will improve us. He may not be world class but it's not as simple as saying leta buy a world class player instead.
The fee's not my problem. I don't really care what LFC choose to pay. If they want him, they want him.
[/quote]
that's exactly how I feel about the deal.
He's a decent player and will improve us. He may not be world class but it's not as simple as saying leta buy a world class player instead.
The fee's not my problem. I don't really care what LFC choose to pay. If they want him, they want him.
[/quote]
that's exactly how I feel about the deal.
I'd agree if we had a bottomless transfer kitty, but FSG don't run things that way. LW isn't the only position that needs strengthening and each £mill.we spend over the top on Downing (or anyone else) will have implications elsewhere.
You'd have to assume they weigh all this up though.
If they are not available, wait until someone is, don't just spend all your money on overpriced players instead.
20+ million Downing is well over priced. Mata, nasri, modric and Hazard are going for around that price. Just because they don't want to play for us doesn't mean others won't, look at Suarez.
Really I'm just concerned we will of spent closing in on 100 million on a bunch of fairly average players and end up finishing 5th.
20+ million Downing is well over priced. Mata, nasri, modric and Hazard are going for around that price. Just because they don't want to play for us doesn't mean others won't, look at Suarez.
Really I'm just concerned we will of spent closing in on 100 million on a bunch of fairly average players and end up finishing 5th.
Saint - certainly, and ultimately I'd back their judgment before my own, but we fans are still going to have our own views. Had the board listened to us this time last year over the appointment of a new manager, many things would have been different now.
True
[quote author=Mistadobalina link=topic=44931.msg1362398#msg1362398 date=1310221403]
If they are not available, wait until someone is, don't just spend all your money on overpriced players instead.
20+ million Downing is well over priced. Mata, nasri, modric and Hazard are going for around that price. Just because they don't want to play for us doesn't mean others won't, look at Suarez.
Really I'm just concerned we will of spent closing in on 100 million on a bunch of fairly average players and end up finishing 5th.
[/quote]
Nasri & Modric? You really think those two will play for us considering who else is in for them? Get real.
Mata & Hazard? How exactly do you know firstly that they are willing to play for us & secondly they want to? Especially in the case of Hazard, who has openly said he wants Arsenal.
Also, Mata is NOT a LW, & we have Suarez who plays in that exact same position he does, a fact most liverpool fans are forgetting cos he has a fancy foreign name & is coming from abroad.
If they are not available, wait until someone is, don't just spend all your money on overpriced players instead.
20+ million Downing is well over priced. Mata, nasri, modric and Hazard are going for around that price. Just because they don't want to play for us doesn't mean others won't, look at Suarez.
Really I'm just concerned we will of spent closing in on 100 million on a bunch of fairly average players and end up finishing 5th.
[/quote]
Nasri & Modric? You really think those two will play for us considering who else is in for them? Get real.
Mata & Hazard? How exactly do you know firstly that they are willing to play for us & secondly they want to? Especially in the case of Hazard, who has openly said he wants Arsenal.
Also, Mata is NOT a LW, & we have Suarez who plays in that exact same position he does, a fact most liverpool fans are forgetting cos he has a fancy foreign name & is coming from abroad.
[quote author=FoxForceFive link=topic=44931.msg1362407#msg1362407 date=1310221735]
[quote author=Mistadobalina link=topic=44931.msg1362398#msg1362398 date=1310221403]
If they are not available, wait until someone is, don't just spend all your money on overpriced players instead.
20+ million Downing is well over priced. Mata, nasri, modric and Hazard are going for around that price. Just because they don't want to play for us doesn't mean others won't, look at Suarez.
Really I'm just concerned we will of spent closing in on 100 million on a bunch of fairly average players and end up finishing 5th.
[/quote]
Nasri & Modric? You really think those two will play for us considering who else is in for them? Get real.
Mata & Hazard? How exactly do you know firstly that they are willing to play for us & secondly they want to? Especially in the case of Hazard, who has openly said he wants Arsenal.
Also, Mata is NOT a LW, & we have Suarez who plays in that exact same position he does, a fact most liverpool fans are forgetting cos he has a fancy foreign name & is coming from abroad.
[/quote]
I know we are not going to sign Nasri or Modric of course I was thinking about the fees expected for the talent they offer. Downing isn't as talented so why should we pay that kind of money? Wait until we find a player of that standard who wants to play for us. We are still a pretty attractive club paying the highest wages.
There must be someone out there better than downing available for 20 million who will play for us.
[quote author=Mistadobalina link=topic=44931.msg1362398#msg1362398 date=1310221403]
If they are not available, wait until someone is, don't just spend all your money on overpriced players instead.
20+ million Downing is well over priced. Mata, nasri, modric and Hazard are going for around that price. Just because they don't want to play for us doesn't mean others won't, look at Suarez.
Really I'm just concerned we will of spent closing in on 100 million on a bunch of fairly average players and end up finishing 5th.
[/quote]
Nasri & Modric? You really think those two will play for us considering who else is in for them? Get real.
Mata & Hazard? How exactly do you know firstly that they are willing to play for us & secondly they want to? Especially in the case of Hazard, who has openly said he wants Arsenal.
Also, Mata is NOT a LW, & we have Suarez who plays in that exact same position he does, a fact most liverpool fans are forgetting cos he has a fancy foreign name & is coming from abroad.
[/quote]
I know we are not going to sign Nasri or Modric of course I was thinking about the fees expected for the talent they offer. Downing isn't as talented so why should we pay that kind of money? Wait until we find a player of that standard who wants to play for us. We are still a pretty attractive club paying the highest wages.
There must be someone out there better than downing available for 20 million who will play for us.
If KD thinks Downing may be the difference between winning the league and not winning it, I suspect he'll react a bit more intelligently than some of you to the prospect of paying a few million more than he expected.
I don't rate him, never have. If Kenny rates him that highly then fair enough. If Downing can step on up and has a big hand in winning us the league I'd be surprised and very happy!
[quote author=Mistadobalina link=topic=44931.msg1362413#msg1362413 date=1310222346]
I know we are not going to sign Nasri or Modric of course I was thinking about the fees expected for the talent they offer. Downing isn't as talented so why should we pay that kind of money? Wait until we find a player of that standard who wants to play for us. We are still a pretty attractive club paying the highest wages.
There must be someone out there better than downing available for 20 million who will play for us.
[/quote]
Why? Why MUST there be?
We CANNOT offer Champions League football. Most top players want CL footy above all else. Left wingers are possibly the rarest commodity in football, next to loyalty & honesty of course.
So to just assume there MUST BE someone better than Downing for 20m is niave at best IMO.
As for waiting until we find someone of that standard, I assume our goals next season is 4th place minimum. That means Kenny believes a LW is intrinsic to that aim. Without meeting that target we arent as attractive as CL rivals, so we cant attract those players at the very top of their profession.
I beginning to understand why other fans thinks us Liverpool fans are deluded.
I know we are not going to sign Nasri or Modric of course I was thinking about the fees expected for the talent they offer. Downing isn't as talented so why should we pay that kind of money? Wait until we find a player of that standard who wants to play for us. We are still a pretty attractive club paying the highest wages.
There must be someone out there better than downing available for 20 million who will play for us.
[/quote]
Why? Why MUST there be?
We CANNOT offer Champions League football. Most top players want CL footy above all else. Left wingers are possibly the rarest commodity in football, next to loyalty & honesty of course.
So to just assume there MUST BE someone better than Downing for 20m is niave at best IMO.
As for waiting until we find someone of that standard, I assume our goals next season is 4th place minimum. That means Kenny believes a LW is intrinsic to that aim. Without meeting that target we arent as attractive as CL rivals, so we cant attract those players at the very top of their profession.
I beginning to understand why other fans thinks us Liverpool fans are deluded.
Let's put it another way, is it better to pay 5m more than we'd like & have the best LW we can afford & attract, or have 15m sat unused & LW yet again?
I'm not deluded. We are not in the champions league that's a big problem getting top talent. maybe I am aiming too high wanting great players for 20 odd million when we are still a work in progress.
I'd probably be happy to pay over the odds if I liked the player, I was happy to pay over the odds for Adam cos I like him so really all I'm saying is I don't like downing in the 1st place so I really don't like him for 25 million.
I'd probably be happy to pay over the odds if I liked the player, I was happy to pay over the odds for Adam cos I like him so really all I'm saying is I don't like downing in the 1st place so I really don't like him for 25 million.
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=44931.msg1362385#msg1362385 date=1310220470]
I can't believe some people think Downing has the talent to be worth £18M+
It really boggles the mind.
And I actually quite rate him.
[/quote]
We've paid £16m for a one hit wonder.
I can't believe some people think Downing has the talent to be worth £18M+
It really boggles the mind.
And I actually quite rate him.
[/quote]
We've paid £16m for a one hit wonder.
It's great to be in this position with owners willing to pay to get their man though. Rather than signing the next best that's true.
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