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David Silva - the new Luis Garcia? Minus the goals

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[quote author=ibromurph link=topic=33906.msg880337#msg880337 date=1243937312]
[quote author=doctor_mac link=topic=33906.msg880326#msg880326 date=1243936502]
It seems to me that even the people who are keen on Silva don't see him as exceptionally talented right now, a player primed to take the league by storm, in that they repeat the fact that he is 23, and has bags of potential. Potential is a good thing, but it also means risk. Most of Silva's supporters also admit that his slight physique coupled with a lack of real pace means that he might not be readily adaptable to PL football. Babel (23) has potential *and* physical attributes that make him suited to the PL, but so far he he isn't cutting it- though it could be argued that even an out of sorts Babel stands more chance of scoring a goal than Silva.

None of Silva's fans have given any reason to believe that this player is the skillful game breaker we need. I've read here that he's more consistent but less tricky than Garcia. I'm sorry, I want someone consistently skillful and tricky.
[/quote]

Also, I think it's about BALANCE.

With the paceless industry of Kuyt on one wing, I just think a chalk-on-the-boots pacey winger would be best for the other wing. It's all well and good saying Silva's a good player, he may be in his own right. But is he really what we need against a Stoke? I don't think so.

United have so much pace and power they simply overwhelm teams. We have only Nando and Stevie. We need another one like them. Can people really see Silva in THAT bracket?
[/quote]

Ribery aside, who is?
 
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=33906.msg880333#msg880333 date=1243937078]
It's odd that Joe Cole is (generally) very popular on these boards...

They're not dissimilar.
[/quote]

But they are (dissimilar, that is).

Joe Cole was born in England and has never played outside the top division in England. He's also 2" taller and weighs 6kg (a stone) heavier. So basically, he's built for this league, proven in this league and knows nothing else but this league.

.. and that's without getting into the subjective arguments about how much more powerful and quicker he is.
 
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=33906.msg880339#msg880339 date=1243937707]
[quote author=ibromurph link=topic=33906.msg880337#msg880337 date=1243937312]
[quote author=doctor_mac link=topic=33906.msg880326#msg880326 date=1243936502]
It seems to me that even the people who are keen on Silva don't see him as exceptionally talented right now, a player primed to take the league by storm, in that they repeat the fact that he is 23, and has bags of potential. Potential is a good thing, but it also means risk. Most of Silva's supporters also admit that his slight physique coupled with a lack of real pace means that he might not be readily adaptable to PL football. Babel (23) has potential *and* physical attributes that make him suited to the PL, but so far he he isn't cutting it- though it could be argued that even an out of sorts Babel stands more chance of scoring a goal than Silva.

None of Silva's fans have given any reason to believe that this player is the skillful game breaker we need. I've read here that he's more consistent but less tricky than Garcia. I'm sorry, I want someone consistently skillful and tricky.
[/quote]

Also, I think it's about BALANCE.

With the paceless industry of Kuyt on one wing, I just think a chalk-on-the-boots pacey winger would be best for the other wing. It's all well and good saying Silva's a good player, he may be in his own right. But is he really what we need against a Stoke? I don't think so.

United have so much pace and power they simply overwhelm teams. We have only Nando and Stevie. We need another one like them. Can people really see Silva in THAT bracket?
[/quote]

Ribery aside, who is?
[/quote]

You see, that's the thing. I honestly don't think Silva has a chance of entering that same bracket, simply because he lacks the physical tools. It may sound harsh, but I think pace and/or power is paramount in this league. You can get by without it, but you're not going to hit the heights of the top players. Gerrard, Torres, Rooney, Ronaldo, Drogba, even Lampard (power) are the main stars in this league.. and the common trait is obvious.
Going back to your question, i'd rather we spent big on player who I felt AT LEAST had the potential to be in that top bracket. Which means spending it on a player who has the right physical attribute.. who is quick and/or powerful, but who perhaps lacks a bit of tactical nous/guidance. Ribery, before he left Marseille was one such gamble I would have taken. Ben Arfa looked a good talent (albeit he's a headcase, so perhaps too much of a gamble). Hulk, is another one who has all the right tools but needs guidance. Menez, before he went to Roma ticked all the right "potential" boxes. There are players out there, who I think, are better gambles than Silva. As I said, it's really all about what we need right now.


==

P.t.n. When I mention pace, there's an inherent assumption that it comes with quality/class.. i'm not talking about pace alone, otherwise Cisse would be a top player and still with us. (although, even in his case, it shows that pace alone can get you somewhere in this league, whereas quality alone without pace (i.e. Morientes) can have you chasing shadows and looking rather sh*t, to be frank).
 
[quote author=ibromurph link=topic=33906.msg880302#msg880302 date=1243933849]
[quote author=TheBunnyman link=topic=33906.msg880288#msg880288 date=1243932581]
[quote author=keniget link=topic=33906.msg880255#msg880255 date=1243929254]
[quote author=rurikbird link=topic=33906.msg880218#msg880218 date=1243923715]
Top post. I will add one more thing. Whether a transfer works out or not depends on the player's new team just as much as the player himself. So is LFC the right team for Silva? If you asked me 3-5 years ago, I would say no. We were a much more direct, defensive side back then, we struggled to impose our game on opponents (and often seemed not quite sure what "our game" really was) and with hoofmasters Riise and Carragher (who has made huge progress in his passing since then) in the team, I could see how a player of Silva's qualities could struggle. In a direct game where where the attacking player has to be quicker than the opponent to a loose ball or win a physical battle just to get possession, a player like Silva would waste his energy fighting battles he is ill-equipped to fight. On the contrary, I think LFC of today is a good fit for someone like Silva (and vice versa) because now this team is very good at keeping the ball on the ground, controlling games and possession. And our numerous Spanish diaspora will ensure he feels right at home. In fact, LFC now is the closest thing to the Spanish national team, other than Barcelona (both teams have 5 current Spanish internationals, Valencia and Villareal have 4, Real Madrid only 2).

People who worry that Silva would not be given time on the ball in this league miss the point. A player who needs ample time on the ball to be effective is called a ball hog. All "speedy dribbler" type wingers who seem to be heavily favored on these boards, players like Ribery, C.Ronaldo, Robben, Quaresma, A.Young, SWP, Walcott, Lennon etc are to bigger or lesser extent ball hogs. They are frightening when given time and space to run, but they disappear if their teammates are unable to supply them with a steady diet of balls in space. Where was Robben in the latest Superclassico? Did you see him after first 10 minutes? He was in the same place Ribery was in the CL 1/4 and C.Ronaldo was in the last 80 minutes of the final - Yaya Toure's back pocket.

Much less fashionable in these parts is a type of a winger/attacking midfielder who is comfortable and effective even when given limited time on the ball, one who prefers one-touch passing and running without the ball rather with the ball at his feet. Silva is an epitome of such a player. In fact, I think, most Premier league defenders would find him quite difficult to shut down because he plays between the lines, can attack from any flank or from the middle and can create an opening with only one or two touches of the ball. Obviously, the "speedy dribbler" types can also be effective (although they do have a tendency do disappear in big games), but in Torres and Gerrard we already have two world-class players who can run at defenders with power and pace. What we lack more than anything is a player with a flawless first touch and a killer final pass. Silva is that player.
[/quote]

Good post Rurik and you make a convincing argument, but for the sake of the debate, I'd like to counter some of your points.

I've *always* been in favour of a Ribery type winger coming into the side ahead of an attacking midfielder like Silva primarily for the reason you've outlined in your post - I think a Silva type player would've been lost trying to play a quick pass and move game in our side back then (I remember having long debates about this with robin). What we needed was a player that could inject a bit of dynamism, pace and unpredictability to the side, much as Torres has done.

I suppose the difference between us now is that whereas we both agree that the team is much better equipped to accomodate a player like Silva, I still believe a Ribery type player would be a better fit.

Even a few years back, we would still spend much of the season dominating possession, as we have done this year, but we lacked the quality to convert that possession into chances and then into goals. We've improved in this respect, but it's still a problem as all those draws at home have shown. In those games, we've seen us pass it around in a slow, cumbersome manner lacking any real sort of imagination or urgency in our play. Can we expect one player who relies on the passing and movement of those around him to change that?

I think it'd be wrong to judge us solely on the football we played in the last few months of the season as we've been burned time and time again thinking that we can expect a season of that next time around. The next season will see similar spells of attacking verve, however it will also produce those depressing cautious lulls where the team as a whole seem unable to play to their potential.

And it's exactly during periods like that that you want your Gerrards and Riberys. Players that can win games on their own. That's not to say Silva can't, but as has already been said, he's typically been more of a team player and whilst it is expected of him to get that extra bit of cutting edge here, it's not guaranteed.

Also, in terms of playing these guys into space, you only have to look back and examine how much of the ball (in space) Riera has seen (and wasted) this year.
[/quote]

All very true, and I will doubtless get shot down for this, but I still think Yossi can make a difference in those kinds of games. He's our 'new Garcia' if anyone is. He can be knuckle-gnawingly frustrating at times, but he also makes brilliant runs into the box, sees clever passes, and scores a lot of goals. 8 from 32 (inc 11 sub appearances) is better than 1 in 4, and I think you'd struggle to find another midfielder (no, Ronaldo, Kuyt and Gerrard don't count) who's doing better than that in the PL without the benefit of penalties and free-kicks.

I hope he plays more often next season, particularly at home.

[/quote]

I agree. I rate Benny quite highly.

He's a terrific little player and i'll stick my neck out here and say he's better than Silva. Now, most will probably disagree, but in the cold light of day, what does Silva possess (or proven) that makes him better than Yossi? They're very similar players for me (Yossi was superb in Spain, at Racing) except Benny scores more goals.

Looking for an honest debate here, what makes Silva better than Benayoun? It's not like we're talking about Villa here (an undoubted world class player). Even in Spain, there's question marks over Silva's ability. I think he's far closer in ability to Benayoun than say Ribery/Ronaldo. Which is why for the money being touted i'm mystified.
[/quote]

Benayoun has all the instincts of the "speedy dribbler ball hog" type without the speed. He is a natural playmaker and needs the ball at his feet all the time to be at his best. Rafa tried to make him a part of the team mechanism by molding him into a winger, but as the end of this season conclusively showed once again, Yossi is twice the player when he is allowed to be a free-roaming playmaker. The problem is, he doesn't have enough talent and consistency to be a genuine #10 for a world-class side. For one thing, his first touch is rather average. We just cannot seriously hope to beat Barcelonas and Uniteds of this world with Yossi as our main playmaker. Therefore he either needs to accept his bit-part role in the team or go to a mid-level team where he can be the main star of the show once again, like he was in West Ham.
 
Posters are doing it again with the whole "pace" thing i see.

He might not be in Torres class in this area, but he's quick enough.
 
[quote author=rurikbird link=topic=33906.msg880345#msg880345 date=1243939453]
[quote author=ibromurph link=topic=33906.msg880302#msg880302 date=1243933849]
[quote author=TheBunnyman link=topic=33906.msg880288#msg880288 date=1243932581]
[quote author=keniget link=topic=33906.msg880255#msg880255 date=1243929254]
[quote author=rurikbird link=topic=33906.msg880218#msg880218 date=1243923715]
Top post. I will add one more thing. Whether a transfer works out or not depends on the player's new team just as much as the player himself. So is LFC the right team for Silva? If you asked me 3-5 years ago, I would say no. We were a much more direct, defensive side back then, we struggled to impose our game on opponents (and often seemed not quite sure what "our game" really was) and with hoofmasters Riise and Carragher (who has made huge progress in his passing since then) in the team, I could see how a player of Silva's qualities could struggle. In a direct game where where the attacking player has to be quicker than the opponent to a loose ball or win a physical battle just to get possession, a player like Silva would waste his energy fighting battles he is ill-equipped to fight. On the contrary, I think LFC of today is a good fit for someone like Silva (and vice versa) because now this team is very good at keeping the ball on the ground, controlling games and possession. And our numerous Spanish diaspora will ensure he feels right at home. In fact, LFC now is the closest thing to the Spanish national team, other than Barcelona (both teams have 5 current Spanish internationals, Valencia and Villareal have 4, Real Madrid only 2).

People who worry that Silva would not be given time on the ball in this league miss the point. A player who needs ample time on the ball to be effective is called a ball hog. All "speedy dribbler" type wingers who seem to be heavily favored on these boards, players like Ribery, C.Ronaldo, Robben, Quaresma, A.Young, SWP, Walcott, Lennon etc are to bigger or lesser extent ball hogs. They are frightening when given time and space to run, but they disappear if their teammates are unable to supply them with a steady diet of balls in space. Where was Robben in the latest Superclassico? Did you see him after first 10 minutes? He was in the same place Ribery was in the CL 1/4 and C.Ronaldo was in the last 80 minutes of the final - Yaya Toure's back pocket.

Much less fashionable in these parts is a type of a winger/attacking midfielder who is comfortable and effective even when given limited time on the ball, one who prefers one-touch passing and running without the ball rather with the ball at his feet. Silva is an epitome of such a player. In fact, I think, most Premier league defenders would find him quite difficult to shut down because he plays between the lines, can attack from any flank or from the middle and can create an opening with only one or two touches of the ball. Obviously, the "speedy dribbler" types can also be effective (although they do have a tendency do disappear in big games), but in Torres and Gerrard we already have two world-class players who can run at defenders with power and pace. What we lack more than anything is a player with a flawless first touch and a killer final pass. Silva is that player.
[/quote]

Good post Rurik and you make a convincing argument, but for the sake of the debate, I'd like to counter some of your points.

I've *always* been in favour of a Ribery type winger coming into the side ahead of an attacking midfielder like Silva primarily for the reason you've outlined in your post - I think a Silva type player would've been lost trying to play a quick pass and move game in our side back then (I remember having long debates about this with robin). What we needed was a player that could inject a bit of dynamism, pace and unpredictability to the side, much as Torres has done.

I suppose the difference between us now is that whereas we both agree that the team is much better equipped to accomodate a player like Silva, I still believe a Ribery type player would be a better fit.

Even a few years back, we would still spend much of the season dominating possession, as we have done this year, but we lacked the quality to convert that possession into chances and then into goals. We've improved in this respect, but it's still a problem as all those draws at home have shown. In those games, we've seen us pass it around in a slow, cumbersome manner lacking any real sort of imagination or urgency in our play. Can we expect one player who relies on the passing and movement of those around him to change that?

I think it'd be wrong to judge us solely on the football we played in the last few months of the season as we've been burned time and time again thinking that we can expect a season of that next time around. The next season will see similar spells of attacking verve, however it will also produce those depressing cautious lulls where the team as a whole seem unable to play to their potential.

And it's exactly during periods like that that you want your Gerrards and Riberys. Players that can win games on their own. That's not to say Silva can't, but as has already been said, he's typically been more of a team player and whilst it is expected of him to get that extra bit of cutting edge here, it's not guaranteed.

Also, in terms of playing these guys into space, you only have to look back and examine how much of the ball (in space) Riera has seen (and wasted) this year.
[/quote]

All very true, and I will doubtless get shot down for this, but I still think Yossi can make a difference in those kinds of games. He's our 'new Garcia' if anyone is. He can be knuckle-gnawingly frustrating at times, but he also makes brilliant runs into the box, sees clever passes, and scores a lot of goals. 8 from 32 (inc 11 sub appearances) is better than 1 in 4, and I think you'd struggle to find another midfielder (no, Ronaldo, Kuyt and Gerrard don't count) who's doing better than that in the PL without the benefit of penalties and free-kicks.

I hope he plays more often next season, particularly at home.

[/quote]

I agree. I rate Benny quite highly.

He's a terrific little player and i'll stick my neck out here and say he's better than Silva. Now, most will probably disagree, but in the cold light of day, what does Silva possess (or proven) that makes him better than Yossi? They're very similar players for me (Yossi was superb in Spain, at Racing) except Benny scores more goals.

Looking for an honest debate here, what makes Silva better than Benayoun? It's not like we're talking about Villa here (an undoubted world class player). Even in Spain, there's question marks over Silva's ability. I think he's far closer in ability to Benayoun than say Ribery/Ronaldo. Which is why for the money being touted i'm mystified.
[/quote]

Benayoun has all the instincts of the "speedy dribbler ball hog" type without the speed. He is a natural playmaker and needs the ball at his feet all the time to be at his best. Rafa tried to make him a part of the team mechanism by molding him into a winger, but as the end of this season conclusively showed once again, Yossi is twice the player when he is allowed to be a free-roaming playmaker. The problem is, he doesn't have enough talent and consistency to be a genuine #10 for a world-class side. For one thing, his first touch is rather average. We just cannot seriously hope to beat Barcelonas and Uniteds of this world with Yossi as our main playmaker. Therefore he either needs to accept his bit-part role in the team or go to a mid-level team where he can be the main star of the show once again, like he was in West Ham.
[/quote]

You make a sensible case against Yossi, and whilst that may be true it doesn't tell me much about what Silva brings to the table that is so different or so much better (we're talking "15m+" better)?

(Also, I still think Benny's an excellent player to have for the other 90% of games when we're not playing your Barcas'/Uniteds').
 
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=33906.msg880348#msg880348 date=1243940014]
Posters are doing it again with the whole "pace" thing i see.

He might not be in Torres class in this area, but he's quick enough.
[/quote]

If he had the accelaration of an Iniesta (over first 5-10metres) it wouldn't be an issue, but he doesn't. He's quick like Luis Garcia was quick, or Riera is quick.. i.e. not very.

Couple that with a lack of strength on the ball, and it's not very encouraging.
 
[quote author=ibromurph link=topic=33906.msg880350#msg880350 date=1243940394]
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=33906.msg880348#msg880348 date=1243940014]
Posters are doing it again with the whole "pace" thing i see.

He might not be in Torres class in this area, but he's quick enough.
[/quote]

If he had the accelaration of an Iniesta (over first 5-10metres) it wouldn't be an issue, but he doesn't. He's quick like Luis Garcia was quick, or Riera is quick.. i.e. not very.

Couple that with a lack of strength on the ball, and it's not very encouraging.
[/quote]

Don't take this personally, but i think thats bollocks.

I think the lad has decent pace IMO.
 
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=33906.msg880351#msg880351 date=1243940651]
[quote author=ibromurph link=topic=33906.msg880350#msg880350 date=1243940394]
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=33906.msg880348#msg880348 date=1243940014]
Posters are doing it again with the whole "pace" thing i see.

He might not be in Torres class in this area, but he's quick enough.
[/quote]

If he had the accelaration of an Iniesta (over first 5-10metres) it wouldn't be an issue, but he doesn't. He's quick like Luis Garcia was quick, or Riera is quick.. i.e. not very.

Couple that with a lack of strength on the ball, and it's not very encouraging.
[/quote]

Don't take this personally, but i think thats bollocks.

I think the lad has decent pace IMO.


[/quote]

Hey, I won't.. (obv) I disagree with your opinion.. does that make it bollocks? ???

Anyways, we've got plenty players with "decent pace", but in this league you need an extra yard especially when you've got such a slight frame. Hell, even "Lil Luis" is bigger than Silva.
 
[quote author=ibromurph link=topic=33906.msg880343#msg880343 date=1243938885]
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=33906.msg880339#msg880339 date=1243937707]
[quote author=ibromurph link=topic=33906.msg880337#msg880337 date=1243937312]
[quote author=doctor_mac link=topic=33906.msg880326#msg880326 date=1243936502]
It seems to me that even the people who are keen on Silva don't see him as exceptionally talented right now, a player primed to take the league by storm, in that they repeat the fact that he is 23, and has bags of potential. Potential is a good thing, but it also means risk. Most of Silva's supporters also admit that his slight physique coupled with a lack of real pace means that he might not be readily adaptable to PL football. Babel (23) has potential *and* physical attributes that make him suited to the PL, but so far he he isn't cutting it- though it could be argued that even an out of sorts Babel stands more chance of scoring a goal than Silva.

None of Silva's fans have given any reason to believe that this player is the skillful game breaker we need. I've read here that he's more consistent but less tricky than Garcia. I'm sorry, I want someone consistently skillful and tricky.
[/quote]

Also, I think it's about BALANCE.

With the paceless industry of Kuyt on one wing, I just think a chalk-on-the-boots pacey winger would be best for the other wing. It's all well and good saying Silva's a good player, he may be in his own right. But is he really what we need against a Stoke? I don't think so.

United have so much pace and power they simply overwhelm teams. We have only Nando and Stevie. We need another one like them. Can people really see Silva in THAT bracket?
[/quote]

Ribery aside, who is?
[/quote]

You see, that's the thing. I honestly don't think Silva has a chance of entering that same bracket, simply because he lacks the physical tools. It may sound harsh, but I think pace and/or power is paramount in this league. You can get by without it, but you're not going to hit the heights of the top players. Gerrard, Torres, Rooney, Ronaldo, Drogba, even Lampard (power) are the main stars in this league.. and the common trait is obvious.
Going back to your question, i'd rather we spent big on player who I felt AT LEAST had the potential to be in that top bracket. Which means spending it on a player who has the right physical attribute.. who is quick and/or powerful, but who perhaps lacks a bit of tactical nous/guidance. Ribery, before he left Marseille was one such gamble I would have taken. Ben Arfa looked a good talent (albeit he's a headcase, so perhaps too much of a gamble). Hulk, is another one who has all the right tools but needs guidance. Menez, before he went to Roma ticked all the right "potential" boxes. There are players out there, who I think, are better gambles than Silva. As I said, it's really all about what we need right now.


==

P.t.n. When I mention pace, there's an inherent assumption that it comes with quality/class.. i'm not talking about pace alone, otherwise Cisse would be a top player and still with us. (although, even in his case, it shows that pace alone can get you somewhere in this league, whereas quality alone without pace (i.e. Morientes) can have you chasing shadows and looking rather sh*t, to be frank).
[/quote]

You make some valid points as usual, ibro, but I do think you're overstating your case. You're also not answering this question: who else is there? If the best you can come up with is Ben Arfa and Menez (neither of whom can get in the current French squad, despite it being nothing like as good as the Spanish one), then you're essentially accepting that there is no one better realistically available. I haven't seen that much of Menez, but Ben Arfa is like a less intelligent and consistent version of Babel, if you can imagine such a thing.

To answer your previous question, no I haven't watched much of La Liga this season. My opinion of Silva is based mostly on internationals, CL matches, and bits and pieces of Valencia matches I saw in previous seasons. So you may be right about his consistency and attitude etc. My judgment is based primarily on his control, intelligence and vision, which for me are always the most important factors in a creative attacking player. Yes, in the PL, pace and power are also important, and it's possible Silva would struggle in our league without those qualities, but I still don't see anyone else we're likely to get this summer who'd be a better bet.

I guess you'd rather have someone like Ashley Young, but he would cost a fortune - maybe twice as much as Silva - and would involve another Barry-esque summer-long transfer saga. Silva, because of Valencia's situation, is available now and probably at a knockdown price.
 
Children here are getting too fucking excited over Silva here. He's a decent player but if we sign him, he could be a better player. Playing in a better team, plus Spanish players, easily adapt and still young. We just need to gamble and fucking sign him!
 
[quote author=ibromurph link=topic=33906.msg880350#msg880350 date=1243940394]
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=33906.msg880348#msg880348 date=1243940014]
Posters are doing it again with the whole "pace" thing i see.

He might not be in Torres class in this area, but he's quick enough.
[/quote]

If he had the accelaration of an Iniesta (over first 5-10metres) it wouldn't be an issue, but he doesn't. He's quick like Luis Garcia was quick, or Riera is quick.. i.e. not very.

Couple that with a lack of strength on the ball, and it's not very encouraging.
[/quote]

Garcia had speed of thought though, which saw him get into positions before the defender would get there, he was more than mobile enough aswell.
 
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=33906.msg880366#msg880366 date=1243941593]
[quote author=ibromurph link=topic=33906.msg880350#msg880350 date=1243940394]
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=33906.msg880348#msg880348 date=1243940014]
Posters are doing it again with the whole "pace" thing i see.

He might not be in Torres class in this area, but he's quick enough.
[/quote]

If he had the accelaration of an Iniesta (over first 5-10metres) it wouldn't be an issue, but he doesn't. He's quick like Luis Garcia was quick, or Riera is quick.. i.e. not very.

Couple that with a lack of strength on the ball, and it's not very encouraging.
[/quote]

Garcia had speed of thought though, which saw him get into positions before the defender would get there, he was more than mobile enough aswell.
[/quote]

Silva is quicker than Garcia.
 
[quote author=Glock link=topic=33906.msg880369#msg880369 date=1243941655]
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=33906.msg880366#msg880366 date=1243941593]
[quote author=ibromurph link=topic=33906.msg880350#msg880350 date=1243940394]
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=33906.msg880348#msg880348 date=1243940014]
Posters are doing it again with the whole "pace" thing i see.

He might not be in Torres class in this area, but he's quick enough.
[/quote]

If he had the accelaration of an Iniesta (over first 5-10metres) it wouldn't be an issue, but he doesn't. He's quick like Luis Garcia was quick, or Riera is quick.. i.e. not very.

Couple that with a lack of strength on the ball, and it's not very encouraging.
[/quote]

Garcia had speed of thought though, which saw him get into positions before the defender would get there, he was more than mobile enough aswell.
[/quote]

Silva is quicker than Garcia.
[/quote]

I wasn't debating that Glocky. Just stating that pace wasn't really an issue with Garcia because he was quick thinking, and he was hardly 'slow' anyway.
 
I don't think we can risk what will undoubetdly be most of our transfer budget on this guy; its too big a risk. He looks a decent enough player but I'd have serious reservations about whether he'd cut it here. I've said it before, this transfer has Reyes/Luque written all over it. I couldn't see him getting any change out of Vidic, Terry, Carvalho et al.
At least we know Tevez cuts the mustard in England. He'd play every week for us and deliver goals, assists, work-rate and passion.
None of that is guarateed from Silva.
 
[quote author=TheBunnyman link=topic=33906.msg880357#msg880357 date=1243941272]
You make some valid points as usual, ibro, but I do think you're overstating your case. You're aso not answering this question: who else is there? If the best you can come up with is Ben Arfa and Menez (neither of whom can get in the current French squad, despite it being nothing like as good as the Spanish one), then you're essentially accepting that there is no one better realistically available. I haven't seen that much of Menez, but Ben Arfa is like a less intelligent and consistent version of Babel, if you can imagine such a thing.

To answer your previous question, no I haven't watched much of La Liga this season. My opinion of Silva is based mostly on internationals, CL matches, and bits and pieces of Valencia matches I saw in previous seasons. So you may be right about his consistency and attitude etc. My judgment is based primarily on his control, intelligence and vision, which for me are always the most important factors in a creative attacking player. Yes, in the PL, pace and power are also important, and it's possible Silva would struggle in our league without those qualities, but I still don't see anyone else we're likely to get this summer who'd be a better bet.

I guess you'd rather have someone like Ashley Young, but he would cost a fortune - maybe twice as much as Silva - and would involve another Barry-esque summer-long transfer saga. Silva, because of Valencia's situation, is available now and probably at a knockdown price.
[/quote]

You're quite right in a lot what you said. To be honest, names like Menez and Ben Arfa are a bit desperate. But then, I'm not paid to be a scout.. and I can bet you, a manager like Wenger could/would find the sort of player we're after if he needed it at Arsenal (he just got Arshavin).

As for the bolded bit, how knockdown are you talking? I'm hearing values of ranging from 20-5m. Basically our entire transfer budget on a gamble. I'd sooner save the money or use it elsewhere in the team and gamble on another season of Riera/Babel. Spending for the sake of spending will only see us lose money, then complain as we watch United spent big when the right player does become available.
 
[quote author=ibromurph link=topic=33906.msg880349#msg880349 date=1243940225]

You make a sensible case against Yossi, and whilst that may be true it doesn't tell me much about what Silva brings to the table that is so different or so much better (we're talking "15m+" better)?

(Also, I still think Benny's an excellent player to have for the other 90% of games when we're not playing your Barcas'/Uniteds').
[/quote]

Silva, provided that he adjusts reasonably well to the new league, would be a much more efficient playmaker, someone who, so to speak, bites off less but chews more. Of course prices don't reflect footballers ability and talent proportionally - someone who is only 10% better, could be worth 3 times as much. However, when that 10% could be a difference between winning or not winning a Premier League or CL title, with all the monetary and other gains that come from it, that extra investment, no matter how large, could actually prove to be a bargain.

Having one playmaker for 90% of games and another one (or playing without one) for the most important 10% doesn't make any sense. Barca didn't win the treble by switching between 2 or 3 completely different systems of play, they just kept improving their own system and made other teams try to adjust to theirs. Guardiola did make occasional tactical adjustments depending on the opponent (like switching Messi to midfield for the Superclassico in Madrid in order to take advantage of Madrid's DMs being too preoccupied with containing Xavi and Iniesta), but nothing that drastic.

Your concerns about Silva's ability to withstand the physicality of Premier League are understandable, but, in my view, a bit outdated. The Premier League is no longer off-limits to subtler, more technical players from the continent or South America. There are numerous examples of players who could be (and sometimes were) considered "too soft" for Premiership and have adjusted quite well: just look at Fabregas, Nasri, Arshavin and pretty much the whole attacking unit at Arsenal (except Adebayor); our own lil' Luis (who's biggest problem was definitely not his lack of physicality) and the aforementioned Benayoun; even players at smaller clubs, like Modric, Robinho, Elano, Arteta etc.

Do you have any doubt that Messi or Iniesta would set the Premiership on fire if they ever came here, despite their physical limitations? Well, Silva is the closest thing to Iniesta we can dream of buying and I think at the Euro he was every bit as good as St. Andres - no comparisons with Riera here. I am not saying there is no risk, but I think with the way our team is set up right now, the risk of Silva being a complete flop is rather low. Actually, considering the number of Spaniards in the team, Silva would probably have a much easier time adapting here than Robbie Keane.

One more thing in Silva's favour is that he is squarely in the middle of the same age bracket - 22-24y.o. - as most of Rafa's successful signings (Xabi, Torres, Masher, Reina, Agger, Skrtel, Arbeloa etc). Rafa seems to have an almost impeccable record with this age group, whereas when he went outside of it for shopping, the record has been mixed at best. So if Rafa does sign Silva in the end (to be fair, same goes for Lavezzi, Suarez, Kuba and some other targets who are in the same age group), there seems to be a good chance of success.
 
Actually, thinking about it - and watching him roll around on the floor a bit too much in that youtube comp - the worst-case comparison would be not with Luis Garcia but with Vladimir Smicer, who also looked pure class in his international team but was consistent only in being frustrating for us. That might be Silva's fate too, I suppose, but I do think the way we play now would make it much easier for him than it was for Smicer, when Liverpool's standard form of attack was to belt the ball up to Heskey's head and hope that Owen got on the end of the knockdown.
 
someone who, so to speak, bites off less but chews more. Of course prices don't reflect footballers ability and talent proportionally - someone who is only 10% better, could be worth 3 times as much. However, when that 10% could be a difference between winning or not winning a Premier League or CL title, with all the monetary and other gains that come from it, that extra investment, no matter how large, could actually prove to be a bargain.

Having one playmaker for 90% of games and another one (or playing without one) for the most important 10% doesn't make any sense. Barca didn't win the treble by switching between 2 or 3 completely different systems of play, they just kept improving their own system and made other teams try to adjust to theirs. Guardiola did make occasional tactical adjustments depending on the opponent (like switching Messi to midfield for the Superclassico in Madrid in order to take advantage of Madrid's DMs being too preoccupied with containing Xavi and Iniesta), but nothing that drastic.


One more thing in Silva's favour is that he is squarely in the middle of the same age bracket - 22-24y.o. - as most of Rafa's successful signings (Xabi, Torres, Masher, Reina, Agger, Skrtel, Arbeloa etc). Rafa seems to have an almost impeccable record with this age group, whereas when he went outside of it for shopping, the record has been mixed at best. So if Rafa does sign Silva in the end (to be fair, same goes for Lavezzi, Suarez, Kuba and some other targets who are in the same age group), there seems to be a good chance of success.
Click to expand...

You talk fucking non-stop gibberish
 
[quote author=rurikbird link=topic=33906.msg880405#msg880405 date=1243943976]
[quote author=ibromurph link=topic=33906.msg880349#msg880349 date=1243940225]

You make a sensible case against Yossi, and whilst that may be true it doesn't tell me much about what Silva brings to the table that is so different or so much better (we're talking "15m+" better)?

(Also, I still think Benny's an excellent player to have for the other 90% of games when we're not playing your Barcas'/Uniteds').
[/quote]

Silva, provided that he adjusts reasonably well to the new league, would be a much more efficient playmaker, someone who, so to speak, bites off less but chews more. Of course prices don't reflect footballers ability and talent proportionally - someone who is only 10% better, could be worth 3 times as much. However, when that 10% could be a difference between winning or not winning a Premier League or CL title, with all the monetary and other gains that come from it, that extra investment, no matter how large, could actually prove to be a bargain.

Having one playmaker for 90% of games and another one (or playing without one) for the most important 10% doesn't make any sense. Barca didn't win the treble by switching between 2 or 3 completely different systems of play, they just kept improving their own system and made other teams try to adjust to theirs. Guardiola did make occasional tactical adjustments depending on the opponent (like switching Messi to midfield for the Superclassico in Madrid in order to take advantage of Madrid's DMs being too preoccupied with containing Xavi and Iniesta), but nothing that drastic.

Your concerns about Silva's ability to withstand the physicality of Premier League are understandable, but, in my view, a bit outdated. The Premier League is no longer off-limits to subtler, more technical players from the continent or South America. There are numerous examples of players who could be (and sometimes were) considered "too soft" for Premiership and have adjusted quite well: just look at Fabregas, Nasri, Arshavin and pretty much the whole attacking unit at Arsenal (except Adebayor); our own lil' Luis (who's biggest problem was definitely not his lack of physicality) and the aforementioned Benayoun; even players at smaller clubs, like Modric, Robinho, Elano, Arteta etc.

Do you have any doubt that Messi or Iniesta would set the Premiership on fire if they ever came here, despite their physical limitations? Well, Silva is the closest thing to Iniesta we can dream of buying and I think at the Euro he was every bit as good as St. Andres - no comparisons with Riera here. I am not saying there is no risk, but I think with the way our team is set up right now, the risk of Silva being a complete flop is rather low. Actually, considering the number of Spaniards in the team, Silva would probably have a much easier time adapting here than Robbie Keane.

One more thing in Silva's favour is that he is squarely in the middle of the same age bracket - 22-24y.o. - as most of Rafa's successful signings (Xabi, Torres, Masher, Reina, Agger, Skrtel, Arbeloa etc). Rafa seems to have an almost impeccable record with this age group, whereas when he went outside of it for shopping, the record has been mixed at best. So if Rafa does sign Silva in the end (to be fair, same goes for Lavezzi, Suarez, Kuba and some other targets), there seems to be a good chance of success.
[/quote]

You make some good points which go to allay some of my fears, although some the players you mention have a lot more going for them physically than I think you give them credit for (Arshavin, Robinho, Arteta, etc) and some of them I don't yet consider a success in this league. Arsenal, in particular, have moved away from what made them successful under Wenger (having strong, quick, techinical players in Vieira, Henry, Pires etc) and it's no surprise to me that they've struggled to win trophies since (as good as Fabregas is, a Vieira will always be better in this league over 38 games). The fact that the top stars here are the Rooneys', Drogbas', Lampards', Gerrards', Torres' and Ronaldos' tells me, the physicality is far from outdated. If anything, it's more prevalent.

Moreover, with Silva his lack of physical attributes isn't JUST what has concerned me. It's a big factor that will immediately play against him but if he's good enough, he'd overcome it. Quality transfers to any league. I guess my main fear is that, well, he just may not be as good as you say he is. Whenever i've seen him, it's a few nice touches here and there, but overall not much else. As I've said before, it's all well and good having a great first touch and good passing ability, but what concerns me is that he doesn't do it enough in the right areas. I.e. His technical ability doesn't translate into enough end product.. and this is in his own league (spain), let alone England. Unlike Fernando, you can't make a case for Silva that whilst the stats are average, he's better suited to England, because as we've already established he's not.

As for the comparisons with Messi and Iniesta, it just goes back to what I said above. Quality transfers to any league. But some leagues better than others, and whilst I'd feel they'd be undoubted successes over here it'd have to be in the right set up (though, again, I think you underestimate both their better pace/acceleration which would be a great contributing factor).
 
[quote author=Brendan link=topic=33906.msg880426#msg880426 date=1243945303]
someone who, so to speak, bites off less but chews more. Of course prices don't reflect footballers ability and talent proportionally - someone who is only 10% better, could be worth 3 times as much. However, when that 10% could be a difference between winning or not winning a Premier League or CL title, with all the monetary and other gains that come from it, that extra investment, no matter how large, could actually prove to be a bargain.

Having one playmaker for 90% of games and another one (or playing without one) for the most important 10% doesn't make any sense. Barca didn't win the treble by switching between 2 or 3 completely different systems of play, they just kept improving their own system and made other teams try to adjust to theirs. Guardiola did make occasional tactical adjustments depending on the opponent (like switching Messi to midfield for the Superclassico in Madrid in order to take advantage of Madrid's DMs being too preoccupied with containing Xavi and Iniesta), but nothing that drastic.


One more thing in Silva's favour is that he is squarely in the middle of the same age bracket - 22-24y.o. - as most of Rafa's successful signings (Xabi, Torres, Masher, Reina, Agger, Skrtel, Arbeloa etc). Rafa seems to have an almost impeccable record with this age group, whereas when he went outside of it for shopping, the record has been mixed at best. So if Rafa does sign Silva in the end (to be fair, same goes for Lavezzi, Suarez, Kuba and some other targets who are in the same age group), there seems to be a good chance of success.
Click to expand...

You talk fucking non-stop gibberish
[/quote]

😀

I knew the whole "bites off less but chews more" thing would get you back on here. Admittedly, it did make me think "eh?".
 
[quote author=ibromurph link=topic=33906.msg880427#msg880427 date=1243945367]

Moreover, Silva isn't just physical attributes, isn't JUST what has concerned me. It's a big factor that will immediately play against him but if he's good enough, he'd overcome it. Quality transfers to any league. I guess my main fear is that, well, he just not as good as you say he is. As I've said before, it's all well and good having a great first touch and good passing ability, but what concerns me is that he doesn't do it enough in the right areas. I.e. His technical ability doesn't translate into enough end product.. and this is in his own league (spain), let alone England. Unlike Fernando, you can't make a case for Silva that whilst the stats are average, he's better suited to England, because as we've already established he's not.[/quote]

To be fair, Silva's goalscoring record is better than Iniesta's and don't forget he is 2 years younger. He does play in a more advanced position, generally, unless Iniesta plays as one of the strikers, but he doesn't have a perfect partner like Xavi and the spine and creativity of Barca around him.

Another important factor to consider is that Silva has been playing in a team that changed 3 managers in 3 seasons, including a spectacularly disastrous Koeman tenure. I suspect that none of those managers have had enough time to really affect his development in a positive way and there is probably a good deal of underdeveloped potential there. I can't see why a player with such excellent technique cannot score more goals as he matures. If Rafa teaches him how to be more clinical in front of goal (something he helped Torres with), he could become a big player.

I think that's all for today. I see your side of the argument too and I have the same concerns as you, just maybe not to the same extent. In any case, I trust Rafa to make the right judgment, as long as he can afford to bring in one of his top choices.
 
[quote author=rurikbird link=topic=33906.msg880468#msg880468 date=1243948196]
[quote author=ibromurph link=topic=33906.msg880427#msg880427 date=1243945367]

Moreover, Silva isn't just physical attributes, isn't JUST what has concerned me. It's a big factor that will immediately play against him but if he's good enough, he'd overcome it. Quality transfers to any league. I guess my main fear is that, well, he just not as good as you say he is. As I've said before, it's all well and good having a great first touch and good passing ability, but what concerns me is that he doesn't do it enough in the right areas. I.e. His technical ability doesn't translate into enough end product.. and this is in his own league (spain), let alone England. Unlike Fernando, you can't make a case for Silva that whilst the stats are average, he's better suited to England, because as we've already established he's not.[/quote]

To be fair, Silva's goalscoring record is better than Iniesta's and don't forget he is 2 years younger. He does play in a more advanced position, generally, unless Iniesta plays as one of the strikers, but he doesn't have a perfect partner like Xavi and the spine and creativity of Barca around him.

Another important factor to consider is that Silva has been playing in a team that changed 3 managers in 3 seasons, including a spectacularly disastrous Koeman tenure. I suspect that none of those managers have had enough time to really affect his development in a positive way and there is probably a good deal of underdeveloped potential there. I can't see why a player with such excellent technique cannot score more goals as he matures. If Rafa teaches him how to be more clinical in front of goal (something he helped Torres with), he could become a big player.

I think that's all for today. I see your side of the argument too and I have the same concerns as you, just maybe not to the same extent. In any case, I trust Rafa to make the right judgment, as long as he can afford to bring in one of his top choices.
[/quote]

Yep. We'll see if we're even in for him. This will be an interesting, long summer.
 
[quote author=ibromurph link=topic=33906.msg880430#msg880430 date=1243945537]
[quote author=Brendan link=topic=33906.msg880426#msg880426 date=1243945303]
someone who, so to speak, bites off less but chews more. Of course prices don't reflect footballers ability and talent proportionally - someone who is only 10% better, could be worth 3 times as much. However, when that 10% could be a difference between winning or not winning a Premier League or CL title, with all the monetary and other gains that come from it, that extra investment, no matter how large, could actually prove to be a bargain.

Having one playmaker for 90% of games and another one (or playing without one) for the most important 10% doesn't make any sense. Barca didn't win the treble by switching between 2 or 3 completely different systems of play, they just kept improving their own system and made other teams try to adjust to theirs. Guardiola did make occasional tactical adjustments depending on the opponent (like switching Messi to midfield for the Superclassico in Madrid in order to take advantage of Madrid's DMs being too preoccupied with containing Xavi and Iniesta), but nothing that drastic.


One more thing in Silva's favour is that he is squarely in the middle of the same age bracket - 22-24y.o. - as most of Rafa's successful signings (Xabi, Torres, Masher, Reina, Agger, Skrtel, Arbeloa etc). Rafa seems to have an almost impeccable record with this age group, whereas when he went outside of it for shopping, the record has been mixed at best. So if Rafa does sign Silva in the end (to be fair, same goes for Lavezzi, Suarez, Kuba and some other targets who are in the same age group), there seems to be a good chance of success.
Click to expand...

You talk fucking non-stop gibberish
[/quote]

😀

I knew the whole "bites off less but chews more" thing would get you back on here. Admittedly, it did make me think "eh?".
[/quote]

🙂

I meant that Yossi is sometimes frustrating to watch because he often "bites off more than he can chew" (hogs possession without creating too much), while Silva, in my opinion, would be just the opposite (create more danger with fewer touches).

OK, now I'm off.
 
Meanwhile, Benitez is said to have launched another bid to sign David Silva from Valencia.

The Spain international tops Benitez's wish list this summer, and Liverpool are believed to have offered £15 million plus Andrei Voronin.

the times
 
[quote author=Skullflower link=topic=33906.msg881212#msg881212 date=1244023495]
Meanwhile, Benitez is said to have launched another bid to sign David Silva from Valencia.

The Spain international tops Benitez's wish list this summer, and Liverpool are believed to have offered £15 million plus Andrei Voronin.

the times
[/quote]

coooome on valencia, accept.
 
[quote author=Skullflower link=topic=33906.msg881212#msg881212 date=1244023495]
Meanwhile, Benitez is said to have launched another bid to sign David Silva from Valencia.

The Spain international tops Benitez's wish list this summer, and Liverpool are believed to have offered £15 million plus Andrei Voronin.

the times
[/quote]


Hahaha-

I'n not a fan- but I'd take him at that price.
 
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