Circuit Breaker Lockdown

[Gerry_A_Trick]

Not to get into all covid denier territory, but it is true that people dying WITH covid rather than FROM covid are being included in the stats, isn't it?

Depends on what that means. If someone has a recent positive test, and they die, and are unlikely to have died without having Covid recently, it goes down as Covid. There's a bunch of reclassifications, so it's not a strict decision, it's based on what the coroner decides.

"recorded on the medical certificate of cause of death for ALL decedents (deceased people) where the disease caused, or is assumed to have caused, or contributed to death"

The above quote you have, is 100%, a Covid denier quote.

 

[Halmeister]

Depends on what that means. If someone has a recent positive test, and they die, and are unlikely to have died without having Covid recently, it goes down as Covid. There's a bunch of reclassifications, so it's not a strict decision, it's based on what the coroner decides.

"recorded on the medical certificate of cause of death for ALL decedents (deceased people) where the disease caused, or is assumed to have caused, or contributed to death"

The above quote you have, is 100%, a Covid denier quote.

I avoid the news and the media, and generally any talk about it now for several reasons. I can't be arsed, it's depressing as fuck, I can't do fuck all about it, and everyone on all sides is adamant that they're right. It's hard to know what the truth is anymore without doing in depth, critical research of your own. That goes for pretty much everything besides Covid, too.

So, I just switch my brain off, avoid all news and media, and wait for that sweet, merciful asteroid.

At some point, though, that Covid deaths with/from argument had seeped into my mind. So just wanted to see what the consensus was on here.

 

[Gerry_A_Trick]

Excess deaths tell the story quite well:
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1131428/excess-deaths-in-england-and-wales/ (flip to the chart and it's easier to see)

That's Vs the average in the last 5 years, and corresponds really well to the reported spikes in Covid deaths, especially at times when you wouldn't expect spikes in deaths.

 

[Halmeister]

Excess deaths tell the story quite well:
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1131428/excess-deaths-in-england-and-wales/ (flip to the chart and it's easier to see)

That's Vs the average in the last 5 years, and corresponds really well to the reported spikes in Covid deaths, especially at times when you wouldn't expect spikes in deaths.

See, now one of my mates is adamant the excess deaths data proves his point that Covid isn't as bad as being made out, and that the deaths are largely following the trend of other years.

Makes my head hurt all this. People shouting from both sides (not you, obviously).

I used to think it was criminal to stick your head in the sand and ignore everything wrong with the world, but now it's the only thing I feel I can do.

 

[Gerry_A_Trick]

See, now one of my mates is adamant the excess deaths data proves his point that Covid isn't as bad as being made out, and that the deaths are largely following the trend of other years.

Makes my head hurt all this. People shouting from both sides (not you, obviously).

I used to think it was criminal to stick your head in the sand and ignore everything wrong with the world, but now it's the only thing I feel I can do.

Just ask him if he thinks all main stream media is fake news. When he says he does, make your judgement on that fact alone.

 

[The Nomad]

Just announced Liverpool going into tier 3, which means no more fans in Anfield.

Bit surprised as Covid rate is 189 infections per 100,000

Exactly.. we went into Tier 4 with those kind of numbers.

 

[Ukrainian by marriage]

By that analysis, the total deaths from Aids with no other illness ever, is zero.

It's not an 'analysis', it a figure from the nhs.

Comparing an immune system deficiency with a virus is somewhat apples/oranges, isn't it, when examining causes of death ?

It'd also be impossible for about a third of all people to ever die from Covid (as thats roughly the percentage that have some underlying condition).

Where does the '33% of covid deaths have an underlying condition' come from please ? I'm fairly sure it's in the high 90s, percentage-wise.

It's literally the most pointless way to count deaths.

The number of people killed by the covid virus alone is pointless ? It might well not present the full picture, but to claim it is pointless is, well, a bit fanatical.

 

[Ukrainian by marriage]

Oh - does "no comorbidiites" mean no underlying conditions? If so what is the point of counting that, as Gerry said?

It does.

During a virus epidemic/pandemic, you're querying the recording of deaths due solely to the virus ? As I said before, it might not present a full picture, but it is certainly a core piece of data.

You're over the sea, Tom, have a listen to Ivor Cummins. He's spectacularly good at numbers, percentages, dates, etc., which I freely admit I am not.

 

[Ukrainian by marriage]

He's a Covid denier type.

One of my friends and his partner are quite poorly with covid at the moment, ta.

 

[Ukrainian by marriage]

And there was me thinking we were having an interesting discussion about statistics & percentages. If I'd known that I wouldn't have engaged

I thought we were too. Gerry seems to have a bit of an axe to grind ...

 

[Ukrainian by marriage]

Mental health issues are an underlying condition. Obesity is an underlying condition.

Anyone using that argument is disingenuous and doesn't deserve to be engaged with.

What, anyone using the argument you posted yourself ? One couldn't make it up ...

 

[Ukrainian by marriage]

Not to get into all covid denier territory, but it is true that people dying WITH covid rather than FROM covid are being included in the stats, isn't it?

It is. Proper information sources specify WITH/FROM when they present the data. People trying to fuck with us tend to be pretty selective.

 

[Ukrainian by marriage]

Just ask him if he thinks all main stream media is fake news. When he says he does, make your judgement on that fact alone.

You are aware Ofcom told all news media they could only present the government's line sometime back in the Spring ?

 

[The Nomad]

It is. Proper information sources specify WITH/FROM when they present the data. People trying to fuck with us tend to be pretty selective.

However it's also true that the vast majority those who have died with COVID, wouldn't have necessarily died had they not contracted COVID in the first place.

Ergo, the leap to dying with COVID to dying from COVID is valid.

 

[Gerry_A_Trick]

Where does the '33% of covid deaths have an underlying condition' come from please ? I'm fairly sure it's in the high 90s, percentage-wise.

No, it's about a third of the population have an underlying health condition. So, if you're disregarding anyone who has one, you're essentially saying all those people can't die of Covid. 90-95% of people who die from Covid, do have an underlying health condition, which is fairly intuitive, as they are least likely to be able to combat illness in general.

What matters is what the health experts put on death certs. Unless you think they're all in some cover-up/conspiracy.

 

[Gerry_A_Trick]

Actually, the figure of underlying health conditions that may increase likelihood of Covid in the UK is 24.4% of the population.

 

[tombrown]

Officially about 73000 people have died with/from COVID in UK

Looking at the data Gerry posted about excess deaths, there had been roughly 84000 more deaths than the 5 year average from March until the start of December.

The two figures are quite closely aligned - you may argue that the COVID death rate is slightly understated, or you could put the 10K difference down a general growth in other causes.

So Ukrainian would say that as the vast majority of those 73000 people had some underlying condition, then COVID didnt impact their death ... I beg to differ

 

[The Nomad]

Officially about 73000 people have died with/from COVID in UK

Looking at the data Gerry posted about excess deaths, there had been roughly 84000 more deaths than the 5 year average from March until the start of December.

The two figures are quite closely aligned - you may argue that the COVID death rate is slightly understated, or you could put the 10K difference down a general growth in other causes.

So Ukrainian would say that as the vast majority of those 73000 people had some underlying condition, then COVID didnt impact their death ... I beg to differ

Yep, that's where I'm at too. If they hadn't contracted COVID the majority of those individuals probably would have managed their underlying condition.

 

[Red Astaire]

You know what’s really weird about this. Is the WHO and their definitions. The difference between droplet and airborne virus’s is so ridiculously papered over - You’re all smart cookies (mostly) so I’m sure you can tell the difference in terms of severity. If in 2-3 months time that the new variant/mutation or subsequent variants (COVID 20 - 21/22/23 etc) gets classed as airborne. That could well go down as the biggest clusterfuck (dis)information fuck up since someone decided the taps on Broad Street - London were sound.

 

[tombrown]

While looking at various data sources (which is a bit of a depressing hobby I have these days), I came across the fact that Israel has already vaccinated about 10% of the population ... I'm wondering if I can move there for a month or two 🙂

https://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations

In UK it is just over 1%, while here in Ireland it is just over 1 ...

 

[Red Astaire]

While looking at various data sources (which is a bit of a depressing hobby I have these days), I came across the fact that Israel has already vaccinated about 10% of the population ... I'm wondering if I can move there for a month or two 🙂

https://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations

In UK it is just over 1%, while here in Ireland it is just over 1 ...

Oh man - I got a letter yesterday from NHS saying a vaccine was available to me. Mainly because I’m on the register as having a pickled liver and so a high priority. That fact I have been sober for over three years and am in good health didn’t matter. Computer said I should. I called my GP and asked him the sort my wife and nipper out first. Not surprisingly that wasn’t possible. Computer said no. The whole thing is a fucking mess.

moral of the story is - Become a recovering alcoholic and you’ll get the goods quicker....

 

[The Nomad]

Oh man - I got a letter yesterday from NHS saying a vaccine was available to me. Mainly because I’m on the register as having a pickled liver and so a high priority. That fact I have been sober for over three years and am in good health didn’t matter. Computer said I should. I called my GP and asked him the sort my wife and nipper out first. Not surprisingly that wasn’t possible. Computer said no. The whole thing is a fucking mess.

moral of the story is - Become a recovering alcoholic and you’ll get the goods quicker....

Kids aren't getting the vaccine.

 

[jon545660]

Oh man - I got a letter yesterday from NHS saying a vaccine was available to me. Mainly because I’m on the register as having a pickled liver and so a high priority. That fact I have been sober for over three years and am in good health didn’t matter. Computer said I should. I called my GP and asked him the sort my wife and nipper out first. Not surprisingly that wasn’t possible. Computer said no. The whole thing is a fucking mess.

moral of the story is - Become a recovering alcoholic and you’ll get the goods quicker....

You could well be fucked if you do get Covid though, so fair play you're in one of the priority groups.

My niece is in a similar position as had a kidney transplant years ago. I'll be a lot happier when I know she's had the vaccine.

Stay safe dude.

 

[FoxForceFive]

Kids aren't getting the vaccine.

Except for all the secondary schools that are giving in to their pupils.

 

[tombrown]

So, I now have two choices to get the vaccine quickly - move to Israel or go on a massive bender.

The latter has an added benefit as, I believe, alcohol kills COVID, so I'll be immune up until I've done enough damage to get myself on the list

 

[tombrown]

BTW - are all COVID deniers also anti vaxxers?

 

[Halmeister]

BTW - are all COVID deniers also anti vaxxers?

That depends... growing an extra limb could be cool, but then again, you'd have to contend with Bill Gates knowing your whereabouts at all times.

 

[jon545660]

Except for all the secondary schools that are giving in to their pupils.

What? Are you talking about testing or vaccines?

 

[The Nomad]

Except for all the secondary schools that are giving in to their pupils.

I think you mean testing..

Vaccines aren't available to under 18s except those who have an underlying health condition which would cause complications.

 

[FoxForceFive]

I think you mean testing..

Vaccines aren't available to under 18s except those who have an underlying health condition which would cause complications.

Ah right, I've been drunk for about two weeks, so yeah, it must be testing! Lol.