Tbf.. you did better than me. As soon as he said the BBC was govt controlled i scrolled down.
Really?
Chinese "Devil Virus" - anyone worried?
- Thread starter manwithnoname
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Really?
My reply is going to be all over the place, as was yours, as I try to address your many comments. Also let me be unequivocal, I, in no way, condone this mass detention.
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Regarding your last point : Well actually that's exactly what it likely is. The vast majority are incarcerated and undergo re-education and Western media / politicians are totally unaware of the actual reality due to the very typical extreme secrecy in China. So you are postulating based on a guess.
You may be right, but there is no way to know that as it stands and using satellite images as 'proof' of anything is wild speculation except to confirm the presence of the camps or demolition of religious centres (the church that my wife & mother-in-law used to attend was demolished for not having the correct building licences and this is actually very common in China so it's no surprise whatsoever it's employed in Xinjiang, though likely to excess now).
And I agree with your sentence, which is to my mind the most probable scenario, since there are years of precedent demonstrating it is China's preferred method of political reeducation :
I continue to be amazed at how people in the West can be surprised at this. I can only assume it's because they are either totally ignorant of China's history or totally ignorant of how a communist country is run. That's the reality even though of course it doesn't make it right, by any consideration, and of course people that have lived under / governments that are run according to democratic constitutions will never agree with that form of government.
I'd like to know how you seem to be so involved (from your claims in the quoted post) with Uyghurs. I mean we have already established that you are racist (or at the very least display a racist attitude) towards China/Chinese (that I pulled you up on last time, no point linking to it again) so I'd like to see if this is merely an extension of that. I mean you haven't said a peep about North Korea or the outrageous rape culture in India or the Tutsi genocide or the multiple other atrocities I listed in my reply to a another comment above, but you have a helluva lot to say about China.
BTW you keep quoting BBC articles, in fact all of your links have been to the Govt. controlled BBC. But to clarify, the BBC actually have little or no better idea, of the reality of the situation, than anyone else, most of it is speculation viewed from a single standpoint ... simply because they, just like everyone else, don't have access. It's good media clickbait though.
These camps can only be seen from space, obviously no foreigners have access and the reports on widespread abuse are all from people that have a vested interest, in securing political asylum and the wealth of benefits that come with that designation. I've read quite a few of those reports and, as has been observed by other commentators, some of them didn't even mention abuse initially but then weeks/months later claimed rape, forced abortions, waterboarding etc. so considering the merit and numbers involved it's certain that some of those reports are accurate and others not, but in any event that's totally different from systemic government promoted abuse which is what the debate is with respect to. Note you (deliberately I assume) took my comment regarding 'bad apples' completely out of the context in which I'd set it.
Again, let me stress (because you love to take comments out of context) that's not to say all/many of the reports are inaccurate but that each one needs to be scrutinised because in essence these people are no different to those escaping from war-torn poverty stricken Arab states, and we know what happened / is happening there with regard to the accuracy of many claims. And yet you seem all too happy to accept everything re. Xinjiang at face value.
Clarity : it is beyond naive if you expect China to suddenly open up the doors and reveal all. China has never done that in thousands of years of history (and certainly not under the CPC !) so crying about how they haven't disclosed their government / military secrets is ridiculous. It's never going to happen and whatever the actual policy is, it will never be divulged.
However it's interesting that Chinese President Xi Jinping ended a three-day tour of the northwestern province of Qinghai on 9th June by stressing its importance (as the role model) for maintaining order in neighbouring Xinjiang and Tibet. Qinghai is a peaceful semi-autonomous province mainly inhabited by people of Tibetan or Mongolian descent.
If I were to attempt to decipher that comment it would be along the lines of : he's not happy with the attention on (or maybe governance of) Xinjiang and is stating that he is reigning in potentially rogue extremist elements in the military governing the province. At least that's my interpretation of his Sino-speak.
I'm suggesting satellite imagery is proof that plenty of building and villages that housed people have now been demolished.
Is a satellite image proof of rape/forced detention/sterilisation? It would be absurd
To suggest that. And I didn't.
The postulating isn't on a guess that all of a sudden I've decided in my made up mind. Nope it's based on the hundreds of eye witness reports, there's plenty of info.
So because a person is not Chinese and they have something negative to say it gets thrown out as some kinda agenda against China?
You're argument, or points of discussion seem to be
A- it's a communist country, wtf did you expect?
B - you don't know for 100% cos China conducts everything in secret.
C - my points have little validity because I've used BBC articles and that's Govt run.
D - look at what other countries do, why you picking on China for.
In an attempt to address some of these.
A- fair, what the heck is there to expect from a communist dictator. It's not gonna be pretty, there likely to be a huge amount of issues that are contrary to the sensibilities of Western democracies... Accept it and move on. To that point.. ok, crack on China and do ya thang, if That means the mass detention.. which you've said you unequivocally disagree with.. then yeah ok.
My point is Western democracies ( and others) need to then not engage.
Leave em alone, decouple from the economic grip China have on the world.
B - seems like a solid argument for getting out of anything, just don't admit it, don't accept it, don't deny it (I'm sure ppl have denied it... I can't search for this using non Bbc sources of you wish) don't acknowledge it. But then it circles back to the argument in point A.. what did you expect!?
C - I'm not sure the BBC is govt run media.
I'll agree to the point where I do believe BBC is heavily influenced by govt but it's not clickbait.
Journalists have tried to get in and find more, then there have been plenty of interviews and discussions with people who've spent time there and managed to get away. Are those people a little one sided in their views? Well yeah of course.. they were held against their will! Ive no reason not to believe their story.
D- one of the ladies I spoke to about it, lives in America talked about a visit to Palestine.
And the discussions there are within the more politically aware Muslim community.
She mentioned it's difficult because you can't end up playing oppression Olympics.
So further to this point, why have I specifically not spoken out about Indian rape culture?
Or Tutsi massacre
Or the Genocide in Bosnia
Or any other atrocity or evil..
Well this thread is about China so it's appropriate in here no?
Start a thread on Kashmir and the blackout there.. still imposed by the Far right Hindu Govt on the Muslim majority and I'll likely contribute.
Or start a thread on Israel and the again at best ethnic cleansing in the West Bank and Gaza and I'll contribute.. I think I might have done so a few time.
How come I know so much about Uyghur issue? Cos I've read a little about it, been lucky to spk to ppl about it.
Why am I invested? Cos I think it's evil.. I'm not saying I'm unequivocally against it.. it's evil.
I'm genuinely concerned about the road/belt approach and I'm genuinely concerned about the way governments have crumbled when asked about the situation. I don't see a positive ending at all.
Tim Marshalls book Prisoners of Geography was one I read a while back and made me start thinking about this... But I don't suppose you'll accept that as a source to be relied upon.
And finally,
Nope 'we' didn't establish I'm a racist.
You've suggested China and CCP are secretive yet we have told the world everything they know about the origins and the start of this virus.
I don't believe they have.
I've probably missed loads but there we go.
An attempt at addressing the points.
Oh dear how can you not say you took it out of context? I stated
which you took and distorted to apply it as a comment applicable to the whole detention policy.
So I'm suggesting any serious physical/sexual abuse may be down to numerous bad elements (which we've seen demonstrated in every conflict throughout time) and doesn't constitute proven systemic government promoted abuse (which is literally unprovable, despite your claim). You then came back with
.
You've wildly exaggerated (HRW estimates 'as many as 1 million', which includes common criminals incarcerated, so although that number alone is abhorrent & shocking it's not millions plural) and I've already completely agreed that the detentions are taking place but am unconvinced there's systemic abuse, political indoctrination aside, a standard political tool of the CPC, but quite clearly that isn't your assertion. Therein lies the difference in our opinions.
Oh and whilst we're debating we should be referring to South Xinjiang rather than Xinjiang per se. Since the vast majority of the Uighurs are domiciled in SX with other enthnic groups (it seems from research more than 50, of which the Kazakhs and Hui are the only other ethnic groups in large numbers) including the Han which are by far the majority in other prefectures outside of South Xinjiang.
I'll get to the rest later.
I've not taken it out of context, I've disagreed with your suggestion.
You think if there is any abuse that this is down to a few bad elements. I disagree with this, I don't think it's a couple of bad eggs. I'd suggest, based on a few reports that it's systemic at worst.
At best it's the demonisation of a minority so they are othered so much, it's whatever. I don't believe that's individual it's purposeful propaganda.
Re the numbers, There are reports of anything from 'more than a million' Amnesy int, USA state dept says 2mill, Uyghur rights groups say closer to 3.
So it's likely to be more than a million in camps.
How many are forced labour and removed from their homeland?
How many children forced away from their families
Forced sterilisations
The Telegraph don't seem to be holding back with their multi-part exclusive mini-series on the uyghurs. You love to see it. Although 12 hour shift is pretty normal, 9 to 9, six days a week, nothing but a standard working day. You can't accuse the CCP of being systemically racist, they oppress every subject equally, to the second.
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Perhaps it's these gloves. I think you should order them for your next bbq, give them a try, seems legit, reviews seem good, only £13 (the quarterly wage of an uyghur, well assuming they get paid). Hang on let's do the maths, 200 a day, that's £2600 a day of product, and the wages come out to £0.10 per day by my calculations. Amazing margins! No wonder Jeff Bezos is going to space!! And also bought a newspaper for the sole purpose of pushing fake news about Trump, which is totally unrelated to these margins.
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Disclaimer: the people who would leave bad reviews have probably lost the ability to type with their fingers in tragic circumstances, which may or may not explain why there are only good reviews.
The phrase "gain of function research" is a lovely innocent sounding term. Its from the same handbook the brought us the "enhanced interrogation" techniques that everyone now recognises as simply torture.
Its remarkable that nobody in the media questions why we would study coronavirus with a view to making it more transmissible to humans.
Your views have most probably been reported to his excellency by now. I have no idea who would do such a thing, but let's just say it is safe to assume that it is done. I wouldn't go back to Shanghai if I were you.
He needs a hand.
masks no longer necessary.
it's not easy to tell someone to fuck off quietly anymore ...
it's not easy to tell someone to fuck off quietly anymore ...
@Rosco Coronaviruses are not new. They've been around for at least 10,000 years and are mainly carried by birds. They cause all kinds of communicable diseases - all of which are candidates for vaccination attempts. Moderna were developing mRNA approaches to vaccinating a variety of coronaviruses before the pandemic. None of this is in reference to SARS-CoV-2 or COVID-19. But keep looking for the conspiracy you fucking gullible tool.
Yeah - that’s the advice I’ve had too.
But they probably all just got a bung for saying it.
Really? I've seen multiple opt for Moderna.
Myself.. meh. I'll take what I'm given.. which was AZ.
My GP wouldn't be of that variety - but what she said is what everyone else has said.
AZ people get much more severe reactions. Hence the doses being spaced out to 12 weeks apart in Ireland.
The big issue with Pfizer seems to be heart inflammation - I'm under examination for that currently. I've had constant chest pain since getting the vaccine .
AZ people get much more severe reactions. Hence the doses being spaced out to 12 weeks apart in Ireland.
The big issue with Pfizer seems to be heart inflammation - I'm under examination for that currently. I've had constant chest pain since getting the vaccine .
I don't think Ireland really got any Moderna supplies
I’ve heard AZ1 is worse than AZ2.
Pfizer the opposite - P1 is ok - P2 knocks you about a bit.
Over here - Last week they said - no more new Pfizer vaccinations - this week they said no AZ to anyone under 60.
Fucks knows what I’m getting jabbed with on Sunday.
Pfizer the opposite - P1 is ok - P2 knocks you about a bit.
Over here - Last week they said - no more new Pfizer vaccinations - this week they said no AZ to anyone under 60.
Fucks knows what I’m getting jabbed with on Sunday.
Yeah it was odd. I only really caught on after I had my first jab. But the few in the industry I know travelled quite a few miles out of their way to get it.
No 5g chips for them I guess.
High level defector allegedly giving the US some very classified information
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/worl...harboring-top-china-official-swirl/ar-AAL9Tb7
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/worl...harboring-top-china-official-swirl/ar-AAL9Tb7