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BYE BYE ROY!!!!!

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[quote author=Wilko link=topic=42120.msg1200142#msg1200142 date=1287422212]
There are thirty games to go therefore a run of wins will shoot us right up the table however it's difficult to see where that run will come from at the moment, Roy appears to have lost the plot and the team is in a tail spin.

The buck stops with the manager however many of the players have been an absolute fucking disgrace. They're wearing the Red shirt of Liverpool and too many of them are moping around with an utterly shit attitude, none more so than Fernando fucking Torres. Fuck right off.
[/quote]


A few wins might place us mid table, but that is as high as Roy is capable of. This season is Long gone league wise and we will not qualify for Euro league even with his lack of ambitions and tactics.
 
[quote author=Richey link=topic=42120.msg1200178#msg1200178 date=1287427227]
So is the RAWK hatred of Carra just based on the rumour that he refused to play at right back and the assumption that he said he wasn't keen on Benitez staying? no, there are all kinds of rumours that carra was leaking stories of dressing room unrest to cetain members of the press deliberately to undermine benitez, and that he and gerrard were seen 'smiling' together on england duty when rafa was sacked, plus probably other stuff besides

Ridiculous. Firstly, I don't actually believe he refused to play at right back. Did he still play in the game? I can't check now. If he refused to play in one position is it that likely that he would still have been selected? And if so what kind of manager does that make Benitez? A pretty fucking weak one! yes, he played in that game. i think it's highly likely, personally, that he refused to play right back because skrtel played there instead. i agree that that scenario doesn't reflect particularly well on benitez, but since that description of him doesn't tally with his general character and managerial record, then i'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. also, how the incident reflects on benitez is completely irrelevant when considering how it reflects on carragher.

Regarding him not wanting Benitez to stay, well he is entitled to his opinion, and given that he knew what went on in the dressing room and in training that opinion is worth a lot more than that of the RAWK retards. i agree, of course he's entitled to his opinion, and if it is true then that itself begs questions of benitez considering that carra is reasonably intelligent - for a footballer.
[/quote]
 
The fact that i wouldn't expect Benitez to be as weak as that is actually the main reason I don't think it happened.

If it did though then i would say it reflects even worse on the manager as it suggests that he had totally lost control and the players were picking the team. That is the kind of situation at the club that got Roy Evans labelled as weak.
Players are always likely to object if they are not playing or are playing out of position. Its the manager's job to assert his authority. If he can't do that then he's a failure.
 
1. why did skrtel play right back rather than carra?
2. forget about benitez: is refusing to play a certain position and saying 'it's your fault for buying shite in the summer' (unproven, yes, but not exactly incredible) acceptable? does it not suggest a certain undesirable level of player power, which is basically the crux of RAWK's complaints about carragher.
 
to be honest I think if rafa told carra to play somewhere and carra refused rafa would simply drop him. rafa doesn't strike me as the type of manager that is scared to make hard choices regardless of reputations.
 
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=42120.msg1200230#msg1200230 date=1287429432]
to be honest I think if rafa told carra to play somewhere and carra refused rafa would simply drop him. rafa doesn't strike me as the type of manager that is scared to make hard choices regardless of reputations.
[/quote]


i agree that i'd expect rafa would do that, but i still think that's what happened. maybe he thought that for the good of the team he had no choice, i don't know. there could be various reasons, but i'm not going to dismissively label him weak because of it.

i'm still waiting for someone to even try to explain why rafa picked skrtel to play right back instead of the much more suitable carragher. that's at least as big a conundrum as why he didn't simply drop carragher for insubordination.
 
Thing is you can't have it both ways. If Carra is a cunt for refusing to play at right back then Benitez is weak for allowing him to get away with that.

Its either both or neither isn't it? I suspect neither.

As for why Skrtel played at right back, who knows? A strange managerial decision from Benitez certainly, but is that so unusual?
 
[quote author=Richey link=topic=42120.msg1200255#msg1200255 date=1287430667]
Thing is you can't have it both ways. If Carra is a cunt for refusing to play at right back then Benitez is weak for allowing him to get away with that.

Its either both or neither isn't it? I suspect neither.

As for why Skrtel played at right back, who knows? A strange managerial decision from Benitez certainly, but is that so unusual?
[/quote]


i'm not trying to have it both ways, you're the one who brought rafa into a discussion about carra.

and big fucking surprise re: your explanation of the skrtel selection. you should have a look at rory smith's #blamerafa twitter page.
 
[quote author=doctor_mac link=topic=42120.msg1200263#msg1200263 date=1287431179]
Redshrek's opinion should be sought. I dare say he'd have heard if this happened.
[/quote]

I did get told that Carragher wasn't happy at being played right back. Never ever heard that he refused to play there.
 
if it came to light carra was responsible for getting rafa sacked I would lose some respect for him but even so on RAWK the comments towards a long serving player who always gives 100% is shocking.
 
Official: Roy is back on the crack...

"It is a problem we are letting in goals but with the offensive line-up we have that is going to be a risk..."

From ESPN post-match interview.
 
[quote author=Buddha link=topic=42120.msg1200273#msg1200273 date=1287431787]
Official: Roy is back on the crack...

"It is a problem we are letting in goals but with the offensive line-up we have that is going to be a risk..."

From ESPN post-match interview.
[/quote]

Haha, you'd also expect to score with an "offensive line-up" Roy.
 
[quote author=SaintGeorge67 link=topic=42120.msg1200275#msg1200275 date=1287431866]
[quote author=Buddha link=topic=42120.msg1200273#msg1200273 date=1287431787]
Official: Roy is back on the crack...

"It is a problem we are letting in goals but with the offensive line-up we have that is going to be a risk..."

From ESPN post-match interview.
[/quote]

Haha, you'd also expect to score with an "offensive line-up" Roy.
[/quote]

i find his line-ups to be plenty fucking offensive
 
[quote author=Buddha link=topic=42120.msg1200273#msg1200273 date=1287431787]
Official: Roy is back on the crack...

"It is a problem we are letting in goals but with the offensive line-up we have that is going to be a risk..."

From ESPN post-match interview.
[/quote]

erm, what?
can someone explain to me what that even means?
 
[quote author=SaintGeorge67 link=topic=42120.msg1200280#msg1200280 date=1287432228]
It's quite straight forward to be fair, even though he's wrong.
[/quote]

so he's saying because we are so attacking that is why we are shipping goals?
you have to wonder if roy even watches our games even though he is right there in the dugout.
 
[quote author=peterhague link=topic=42120.msg1200268#msg1200268 date=1287431553]
[quote author=Richey link=topic=42120.msg1200255#msg1200255 date=1287430667]
Thing is you can't have it both ways. If Carra is a cunt for refusing to play at right back then Benitez is weak for allowing him to get away with that.

Its either both or neither isn't it? I suspect neither.

As for why Skrtel played at right back, who knows? A strange managerial decision from Benitez certainly, but is that so unusual?
[/quote]


i'm not trying to have it both ways, you're the one who brought rafa into a discussion about carra.

and big fucking surprise re: your explanation of the skrtel selection. you should have a look at rory smith's #blamerafa twitter page.
[/quote]

I think it was probably your mentioning of Carra supposedly exercising player power by refusing to play at RB that started it,pete.

Carra may not have wanted to play at rightback,...but surely you can see that your explanation is very much the line taken at RAWK?
 
i can see that if there was a SCM/RAWK divide drawn on this issue then i'd probably just about be on the RAWK side, yes. but that doesn't automatically make me wrong. i could say the same thing about whether rafa should have been kept on last summer, again that doesn't make me wrong - or you right.

as for richey bringing benitez into the discussion: he had absolutely no logical reason to do so. for a start, my mentioning player power came after his introduction of rafa to the debate, so you're demonstrably wrong about that. FWIW, i just don't think he could resist the temptation to have a dig because of how he feels in general about the man, but i suppose he can answer that for himself.
 
Not sure that's fair. I don't consider myself to be extremely anti Benitez.

The reason I brought it up was that the issue of Carra apparently refusing to play at right back was raised. It seems logical to me when debating whether this is true to question
why he would have been allowed to get away with it by the manager.

I wasn't actually having a dig at Benitez, i was saying why i felt the story about Carra was false, because i didn't believe Benitez would be that weak.

As for why Skrtel played, well i'm sure even the most ardent Benitez fan would admit that him making baffling decisions is not completely out of character.
 
fair enough. it reads like you were trying to use any excuse to criticise him - especially given that you persisted even after i'd pointed out that benitez was irrelevant - but if you weren't you weren't.
 
Because Benitez isn't irrelevent at all!

You can't debate whether an exchange took place between two people without talking about the role of both of them!
 
Roy really needs to shut up.

Everything he says is undermined by the fact that we're 19th in the league. Get your head down and sort it out.
 
[quote author=Richey link=topic=42120.msg1200338#msg1200338 date=1287435666]
Because Benitez isn't irrelevent at all!

You can't debate whether an exchange took place between two people without talking about the role of both of them!
[/quote]


but i'm saying carra was out of order regardless of benitez's response. fair enough if you were using the point solely to argue that this could never have happened, but you weren't - you were also implying that carra's behaviour was broadly acceptable and that it was rafa's job to deal with it:


[quote author=Richey link=topic=42120.msg1200219#msg1200219 date=1287428840]
Players are always likely to object if they are not playing or are playing out of position. Its the manager's job to assert his authority. If he can't do that then he's a failure.
[/quote]
 
The rawktards argument has one fatal (self-inflicted) flaw.

On the one hand, Benitez was "the only person strong enough to stand up to the owners and fight for the team to prevent the Yanks asset stripping us dry" - yet on the other hand he didn't dare to drop a player for supposedly refusing to play a certain position.

Which is about as wrong as you can be on both counts, because as shit as Roy has been the only person sold was Mascher, who was always gonna be gone anyway, and Gerrard and Torres the two other likely candidates are still here. On top of that, for all of Rafa's imperfections, letting players shout the odds is not one of them, and he's not adverse to dishing out a public bollocking to *anybody* including the talismanic captain on occasion.

Therefore the suggestion that he would have let Carra 'refuse' to play at right back without dropping him like the proverbial ginger step-child, is risible at best.

They are the biggest bunch of fucking cretins bar none, and if you're ever unsure of whether you're on the right track the simplest acid test to find out is to see whether your opinion is the polar opposite to the general consensus on there. If it is, you're doing fine
 
Primarily I was arguing that it did not happen but yes admittedly I would say that in a situation like that it would be the manager who comes out of it looking worse, and my point in that respect is that it would back up the claims that he lost control and the dressing room.

I'm not saying that Carra refusing to play right back is not out of order but am saying its not necessarily unusual. What is unusual is for a manager to listen to a player complaining about what position he has been asked to play, going back on his own judgement and still selecting that player in a different position!
 
yes, it'd be unusual, but it's hardly inconceivable. firstly, he might just have been weak. unlikely, but possible. secondly, there are kinder explanations:

- he always named line ups close to kick-off, and this was an away game, so presumably was working with a limited squad with little time to make adjustments.
- we were down to the bare bones in defence - no agger, no arbeloa. non-one who cold have feasibly have filled in at right back.
- this was a crucial game in the title race. possibly he would have been willing to sacrifice a bit of authority to try to win the game, maybe with idea of disciplining him later.

i mean, clearly this is a difficult point to explain, i'm not pretending it isn't. but whatever you say about rafa's strange team selections i still think it's equally puzzling why he'd play skrtel ahead of carragher at right back - perhaps you don't. but we'll have to agree to disagree on it, because i really don't remember him fucking around with eccentric selections with basic defensive positions: i think you'll find he was remarkably consistent with his defensive line-ups, and i struggle to believe that one day he just had a kind of seizure and thought 'ah fuck it, i wonder what kind of right back skrtel would make?'
 
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