are we fucking buying anyone or what like?

[Mystic]

We need another creative player. What a difference Coutinho made when he came on.
Lallana ain't got shit on him.

Are you stuck in permanent troll mode with Lallana?

 

[Gary25]

In the longer term we WILL buy another quality attacker though. We won't do it in January, but we will in the Summer, because in the grander scheme of things, it is a problem that's occasionally re-surfacing. Whether it's through a lack of depth, or the fact that a few of the players we have only function well when our better players are available, either way, we do need that extra bit of match winning quality to push us the final yard.

So if we do buy someone in the Summer, we needed that extra quality, no? Firmino has been poor since Coutinho went out the team, and we saw how toothless we were even moreso against Southampton, without Mane. We should always strive to be better than we are, so if that means we bring someone in who will push for a place beyond the current lot, then we should. For all of their quality this season, I don't think Firmino and Lallana are completely unshiftable - and we'll have injuries etc to contend with too, anyway. At the moment when we look to the bench we've got Origi who has done exceptionally well but is still relatively raw, and Daniel Sturridge who has declined at an alarming rate. Beyond that, there's nothing but reserve players to come into the midfield and attacking positions, while Lucas and Can don't look like the answers either, Lucas clearly isn't and Can has struggled under Klopp. At fullback too we have paper thin competition. These are the areas where we're falling short, on real quality within the squad.

Fuck the longer term...at the minute we're in a position we're in on average every 6 or 7 years and we have the opportunity to bring in a player or two to help us. Football is about the here and now. Next season hasn't even entered my thoughts and why should it.

 

[Skullflower]

Fuck the longer term...at the minute we're in a position we're in on average every 6 or 7 years and we have the opportunity to bring in a player or two to help us. Football is about the here and now. Next season hasn't even entered my thoughts and why should it.

Yep. We never strengthen from a position of strength.

 

[mark1975]

I'm not arguing with that, but you know it won't happen til the summer.

 

[Hansern]

I'm not arguing with that, but you know it won't happen til the summer.

I dont want us to buy anyone just for the sake of it either, as we've done that in the past.
The squad needs some quality additions now and its a shame those targets probably arent available until the summer.

 

[Judge Jules]

Are you stuck in permanent troll mode with Lallana?

Do bears sh!t in the woods?

 

[Gary25]

I dont want us to buy anyone just for the sake of it either, as we've done that in the past.
The squad needs some quality additions now and its a shame those targets probably arent available until the summer.

Probably aren't yes but it's all guesswork. It's not like it's impossible to bring quality in, in January. It's been done before and will be done again.

It's the job of the scouting network at every Club to identify players for whom could interest the Manager.

 

[StevieM]

In the longer term we WILL buy another quality attacker though. We won't do it in January, but we will in the Summer, because in the grander scheme of things, it is a problem that's occasionally re-surfacing. Whether it's through a lack of depth, or the fact that a few of the players we have only function well when our better players are available, either way, we do need that extra bit of match winning quality to push us the final yard.

So if we do buy someone in the Summer, we needed that extra quality, no? Firmino has been poor since Coutinho went out the team, and we saw how toothless we were even moreso against Southampton, without Mane. We should always strive to be better than we are, so if that means we bring someone in who will push for a place beyond the current lot, then we should. For all of their quality this season, I don't think Firmino and Lallana are completely unshiftable - and we'll have injuries etc to contend with too, anyway. At the moment when we look to the bench we've got Origi who has done exceptionally well but is still relatively raw, and Daniel Sturridge who has declined at an alarming rate. Beyond that, there's nothing but reserve players to come into the midfield and attacking positions, while Lucas and Can don't look like the answers either, Lucas clearly isn't and Can has struggled under Klopp. At fullback too we have paper thin competition. These are the areas where we're falling short, on real quality within the squad.

I think you're overstating the problem and the solution might not necessarily be to buy at this point.

My position is firmly - if the right player is available at the right price - then we get him - if he isn't, they we're better off holding off.

If Pulsic & Brandt are our long term targets and we can't secure them this window - then I'd suggest we should make better use of the resources available to us for the next couple of weeks until Coutinho gets match fitness & Mane returns.

A few games might get Sturridge going again.

 

[manwithnoname]

Yeah, but Dreamy doesn't want facts or logic, as they conflate with his opinion.

Please stop using the word "conflate" until you have looked up the correct definition of the word. Cheers.

 

[StevieM]

Whether we get that player, who he is etc is a different debate. The question is do we need him.

The answer so far from Ryan and yourself is no while for its a resounding yes.

Dreamie - there isn't a team that doesn't need or want a player that can unlock the tightest defences in humanity all by himself with no need for any of his teammates to get involved.

That's not the point.

The point is - we're missing key players for a few weeks and it sucks - but it's a few weeks.

There are long term issues that need to be addressed - but right now we have a really good balance - we're managing a difficult period of congested fixtures, injuries & African nations cup pretty well in my opinion.

Have you noticed any of the other top 6 teams - 4 of whom are below us - desperately trying to enhance their squads.

Like us - they will, if a target that is actually worth buying becomes available.

 

[FoxForceFive]

It's hugely dependant on all of the functioning parts in the system being available though. The two most potent and creative players we have are Coutinho and Mane, the players who play well alongside them are a shadow of that without them. As shown by trying to rely on them consistently - we can't. We have good players, but we've found a system that's great at its best as a unit, but with players who are not so reliable individually. We need more players who can produce moments of genuine class, regularly.

It's stupid to think we can't improve on what have, class will tell over the course of the season. Our progression has been good, but there are obvious areas where we can improve too.

Yep. When there was just myself & Brendan banging on about being worried by the lack of a real striker a couple of months back (i actually remember you backing that play too once or twice) everyone's counter argument was that we weren't reliant on any one player.

I said I thought it seemed just as dangerous that with this system any one player missing would make the others less potent & blunt our attack. It's fairly obvious tbh, cos it relies on constant pressing, quick passing, creativity & clever movement from everyone upfront (hence sturridge struggling when he's played there) to be effective, & the replacements available can't do all that.

Sadly it has proven true, & with Mane out for the next few weeks it could dramatically effect our league form.

 

[FoxForceFive]

Dreamie - there isn't a team that doesn't need or want a player that can unlock the tightest defences in humanity all by himself with no need for any of his teammates to get involved.

That's not the point.

The point is - we're missing key players for a few weeks and it sucks - but it's a few weeks.

There are long term issues that need to be addressed - but right now we have a really good balance - we're managing a difficult period of congested fixtures, injuries & African nations cup pretty well in my opinion.

Have you noticed any of the other top 6 teams - 4 of whom are below us - desperately trying to enhance their squads.

Like us - they will, if a target that is actually worth buying becomes available.

Long term I agree with you completely. However the current issue isn't so easy to reconcile.

That is that we're second in the league, with only one side really getting consistent results bar ourselves, & only a couple of points difference between us. In what is likely to be our last season put of Europe for some time that basically means that there's a good chance this will be our best chance to seriously challenge for the title for a couple of seasons at a minimum.

To risk that derailing in order to wait for the perfect fits for the side instead of a couple of players who could do a job & help keep our momentum is daft imo.

 

[manwithnoname]

As I keep telling you dreamy, a team that has scored more goals than any side in England is not "severely limited" in an attacking sense, or "crying out for someone to produce a bit of magic out of nothing".

Dreamy is correct.

What he's trying to articulate is that when we don't play very well and/or are faced with a resolute defensive wall of players, we could do with more inspiration when the perspiration fails. There are times when you just have to hope that your match-winner, your genius, your goalscorer simply bails you out.

It's a hoary old cliche, but the reason it is one, is because it's fucking correct: great teams win even when they don't play well (or when they've been simply outplayed)

Often it's a goal scored from the one chance the team has created. Or one astonishing bit of skill. When we don't play well, we very rarely win.
And we aren't very clinical, because, as everyone knows, we don't have any top quality finishers (bar Sturridge, who seems a shadow of the player he was). We need lots of chances to score. And they've dried up.

Dreamy keeps referring to Chelsea, using Costa and Hazard as the two type of players he is talking about, and it is again, entirely correct. A brutally efficient goalscorer and a devastatingly quick attacking wizard who can create his own chances without any help.

The closest we have to Hazard is Mane. Without him, as most of us predicted, we've been fucking shite. So we need another. And we also need another striker, who is a top quality finisher and can work as a lone striker.

When we struggle in a game, we don't have enough (or any) players like Costa, Hazard, Aguero, Sanchez, Dele Alli, Sanchez, Kane or Ibrahimovic.

 

[StevieM]

To clarify I'm talking about the defenses we have struggled to break down or create many chances against. Nearly every team we have played have sat deep, some have been more effective than others and in those games we lacked a creative spark to change the game.

So.... Burnley, Man Utd & Southampton (twice).

When Chelsea were winning 4 out of their 14 in a row by 1 goal - they were still ripping teams apart with their individual brilliance or whatever - but.... how did this not translate into more goals!!!!

In case you wondered the amazing 5 teams that managed to only let the mighty Chelsea beat them by 1 goal were Spurs, Middlesbrough, WBA, Sunderland & Crystal Palace.

 

[i_rushie]

You people have traumatised Brendan so much he is compelled to shoehorn a reference to natural finisher- either of Sturridge is one/ Firmino isn't- in every single one of his posts now.

 

[Pesam]

I'm conflated by this debate.

 

[manwithnoname]

So.... Burnley, Man Utd & Southampton (twice).

When Chelsea were winning 4 out of their 14 in a row by 1 goal - they were still ripping teams apart with their individual brilliance or whatever - but.... how did this not translate into more goals!!!!

In case you wondered the amazing 5 teams that managed to only let the mighty Chelsea beat them by 1 goal were Spurs, Middlesbrough, WBA, Sunderland & Crystal Palace.

But you, like everyone else in every other fucking argument, are using shortened or very specific time-frames in order to make, or belittle a point.

It's like all those conversations a few months back

"Well, Firmino has scored 5 goals in his last 10 games so he'll probably score 15-20"
"Lallana is on track to score 15!!!"
"Coutinho should get at least 15 goals based on the the season so far"
"We're top scorers, we don't need a striker! We score goals all the time!"
"We've kept 2 clean sheets now, Karius is the business! Who said our defence was poor? HAHAHAHAHA!"

Or the usual bellends quacking on about "I see Harry Kane hasn't scored/ Delle Ali is a one season wonder/ United are finished/ Pogba is shit, I'd prefer Can/ Courtois is terrible" in fucking September.

As a general rule, anyone using a time-frame of fucking 5 games to decide on any definitive opinion or prediction is a fucking cunt, but as for the collective sniggering at Dreamy, well, this lull in performance and results is another period of about 5 games, so I wouldn't definitively say we are DOOOMED, but frankly, anyone who doesn't think we need a few more players like Mane, who could be happily added to a list of "match-winners" like Aguero, Ibrahimovic, Delle Ali, Sanchez, Costa, Hazard, Kane et al is either a liar or a moron, and really, that is ALL Dreamy is trying to say.

 

[manwithnoname]

Yep. When there was just myself & Brendan banging on about being worried by the lack of a real striker a couple of months back (i actually remember you backing that play too once or twice) everyone's counter argument was that we weren't reliant on any one player.

I said I thought it seemed just as dangerous that with this system any one player missing would make the others less potent & blunt our attack. It's fairly obvious tbh, cos it relies on constant pressing, quick passing, creativity & clever movement from everyone upfront (hence sturridge struggling when he's played there) to be effective, & the replacements available can't do all that.

Sadly it has proven true, & with Mane out for the next few weeks it could dramatically effect our league form.

*lights pipe and sits back*

 

[manwithnoname]

It's hugely dependant on all of the functioning parts in the system being available though. The two most potent and creative players we have are Coutinho and Mane, the players who play well alongside them are a shadow of that without them. As shown by trying to rely on them consistently - we can't. We have good players, but we've found a system that's great at its best as a unit, but with players who are not so reliable individually. We need more players who can produce moments of genuine class, regularly.

Entirely accurate

 

[manwithnoname]

In the longer term we WILL buy another quality attacker though. We won't do it in January, but we will in the Summer, because in the grander scheme of things, it is a problem that's occasionally re-surfacing. Whether it's through a lack of depth, or the fact that a few of the players we have only function well when our better players are available, either way, we do need that extra bit of match winning quality to push us the final yard.

As is this

We needed to buy another quality attacker in summer. Said it then, still true now, don't know why anyone would disagree or argue

 

[tony]

Personally I couldn't give a fuck about " the right price ". If Klopp identifies the right player we should just go and get him pronto. We are loaded, we sold more than we bought in the summer, we can offer big wages, we are on the cusp of winning things, if we have to pay a premium then so be it. Losing out on the Champions league would be more damaging financially than paying out a bit more now. Rather than striker I think we are short in midfield, in fact, if you have to play Lucas there I know we are short in midfield. We could move Milner up but not if that means Moreno plays.

 

[StevieM]

Dreamy is correct.

What he's trying to articulate is that when we don't play very well and/or are faced with a resolute defensive wall of players, we could do with more inspiration when the perspiration fails. There are times when you just have to hope that your match-winner, your genius, your goalscorer simply bails you out.

It's a hoary old cliche, but the reason it is one, is because it's fucking correct: great teams win even when they don't play well (or when they've been simply outplayed)

Often it's a goal scored from the one chance the team has created. Or one astonishing bit of skill. When we don't play well, we very rarely win.
And we aren't very clinical, because, as everyone knows, we don't have any top quality finishers (bar Sturridge, who seems a shadow of the player he was). We need lots of chances to score. And they've dried up.

Dreamy keeps referring to Chelsea, using Costa and Hazard as the two type of players he is talking about, and it is again, entirely correct. A brutally efficient goalscorer and a devastatingly quick attacking wizard who can create his own chances without any help.

The closest we have to Hazard is Mane. Without him, as most of us predicted, we've been fucking shite. So we need another. And we also need another striker, who is a top quality finisher and can work as a lone striker.

When we struggle in a game, we don't have enough (or any) players like Costa, Hazard, Aguero, Sanchez, Dele Alli, Sanchez, Kane or Ibrahimovic.

What do Chelsea do when Hazard & Costa aren't available?

You talk of Mane being the closest to Hazard - he's scored the same amount of goals (including one penalty) - so close is an understatement.

After Costa & Hazard it's 5-4-3-2-1 in scoring - Willem, Pedro, Moses, Cahill & Batshuayi.

You bang on about how important Costa is.

Take our 2 top scorers out of the equation (Mane & Lallana - 9 & 7) and its 6-5-5-4-3 : Firmino, Coutinho, Milner, Origi, Can.

Even taking Milner out of the equation for his penalties - Wijnaldum, Sturridge & Lovren have scored more than one.

So... Should we be disregarding all that to have a focal point of attack that scores all the goals.

 

[manwithnoname]

But frankly, anyone who doesn't think we need a few more players like Mane, who could be happily added to a list of "match-winners" like Aguero, Ibrahimovic, Delle Ali, Sanchez, Costa, Hazard, Kane et al is either a liar or a moron, and really, that is ALL Dreamy is trying to say.

Of course some try-hard clown making a dismal effort to be pedantic will probably say

"Yeah, it's so weird that even though quality goalscorers are important and players like Aguero/ Ibra/ Delle Ali/ Kane/ whoever are what we are missing, they're STLL below us in the league hurhurhurhur!"

So, to save those cunts from making the effort: don't bother. It's a point entirely devoid of logic.

 

[manwithnoname]

What do Chelsea do when Hazard & Costa aren't available?

You talk of Mane being the closest to Hazard - he's scored the same amount of goals (including one penalty) - so close is an understatement.

After Costa & Hazard it's 5-4-3-2-1 in scoring - Willem, Pedro, Moses, Cahill & Batshuayi.

You bang on about how important Costa is.

Take our 2 top scorers out of the equation (Mane & Lallana - 9 & 7) and its 6-5-5-4-3 : Firmino, Coutinho, Milner, Origi, Can.

Even taking Milner out of the equation for his penalties - Wijnaldum, Sturridge & Lovren have scored more than one.

So... Should we be disregarding all that to have a focal point of attack that scores all the goals.

I didn't mean "close" only in a purely statistical fashion, based on the season so far. That would be cretinous.

As for Costa, would you like him in the Liverpool team?

But really, I genuinely don't fucking care who scores what, or when, or how the goals are spread out, as long as we win.

All I care about is winning the title.

The only reason I'm interested in players like Costa - and Hazard - is because teams who have won the title recently usually have one or two like them.

You are statistically more likely to win the title with a goalscorer who can get you around 20 goals in one Premiership season. This is inarguable.

Of course, I have a sound enough grasp of statistics and probability to understand that having such a player is no guarantee of winning the title - only a moron would think that - and nor am I saying that it is impossible to win the title without one - only a moron would think that - just that it is more likely.

So I'd prefer to be in the "more likely" bit

 

[StevieM]

But you, like everyone else in every other fucking argument, are using shortened or very specific time-frames in order to make, or belittle a point.

It's like all those conversations a few months back

"Well, Firmino has scored 5 goals in his last 10 games so he'll probably score 15-20"
"Lallana is on track to score 15!!!"
"Coutinho should get at least 15 goals based on the the season so far"
"We're top scorers, we don't need a striker! We score goals all the time!"
"We've kept 2 clean sheets now, Karius is the business! Who said our defence was poor? HAHAHAHAHA!"

Or the usual bellends quacking on about "I see Harry Kane hasn't scored/ Delle Ali is a one season wonder/ United are finished/ Pogba is shit, I'd prefer Can/ Courtois is terrible" in fucking September.

As a general rule, anyone using a time-frame of fucking 5 games to decide on any definitive opinion or prediction is a fucking cunt, but as for the collective sniggering at Dreamy, well, this lull in performance and results is another period of about 5 games, so I wouldn't definitively say we are DOOOMED, but frankly, anyone who doesn't think we need a few more players like Mane, who could be happily added to a list of "match-winners" like Aguero, Ibrahimovic, Delle Ali, Sanchez, Costa, Hazard, Kane et al is either a liar or a moron, and really, that is ALL Dreamy is trying to say.

Ok yes... I admit it.

I'm not against Liverpool signing Agureo, Hazard, Kane, Sanchez, Delle Ali, Suarez, Messi, Ronaldo....

They must be signed immediately or we're doomed.

Jermaine Defoe, not so much.

 

[StevieM]

I didn't mean "close" only in a purely statistical fashion, based on the season so far. That would be cretinous.

As for Costa, would you like him in the Liverpool team?

See... that's an interesting question - would I like Costa?

Disregarding the fantasy that we'd ever sign him obviously.

At face value - abso-fuckin-lutely

Buts here's the thing - and where I as a mere mortal have no real idea.

Does our manager "fancy him"? Is he the player that would thrive in the system we, and or manager, plays.

There's a fuck load of difference between picking a player excelling at another club and then pretending it's a given they'll replicate that form at another club and reality.

I'm not sure if I was given carte blanche to pick any striker in the world - I'd pick Costa, for us.

 

[manwithnoname]

Ok yes... I admit it.

I'm not against Liverpool signing Agureo, Hazard, Kane, Sanchez, Delle Ali, Suarez, Messi, Ronaldo....

They must be signed immediately or we're doomed.

Jermaine Defoe, not so much.

It's pretty obvious that the point is "like" that sort of player, in terms of calibre and reliability, not suggesting we spend £50m on Delle Ali now.
I suggested buying him when he was for sale at MK Dons anyway.

But my point is that there appears to be a large group of people who bizarrely don't think we need a top quality striker, or even stranger, might actually be better off without one at all! Imagine!?

And all you hear is bleating:

"spread goals around the team!"
"not reliant one one player!"
"Jermain Defoe is playing for Sunderland!"
"Player X will score Y goals, even though he never has in his entire career before"

It all seems largely based on the reality of the fact that we don't have one, and a slavish desire to believe Klopp is a messianic genius and because he hasn't bought one yet, we never need to.

Which is a bit embarrassing really.

 

[StevieM]

Personally I couldn't give a fuck about " the right price ". If Klopp identifies the right player we should just go and get him pronto. We are loaded, we sold more than we bought in the summer, we can offer big wages, we are on the cusp of winning things, if we have to pay a premium then so be it. Losing out on the Champions league would be more damaging financially than paying out a bit more now. Rather than striker I think we are short in midfield, in fact, if you have to play Lucas there I know we are short in midfield. We could move Milner up but not if that means Moreno plays.

Ok - we can't just buy anyone - that not realistic.

Are we playing Lucas in midfield regularly, or because other players are injured or out of form or being rested.

I dunno - you decide

 

[Modo]

I don't know which side of the fence I'm on here, but all I can say is that against Southampton, a team that just sat back and invited us to attack, there was no one on the pitch trying to find Sturridge until Coutinho came on.

Firmino and Lallana are great at driving forward but when they're not given any space they become ineffective. Of course it's pretty tough when you're playing against a defensive setup like Southampton's. As soon as Firmino or Lallana got the ball they had 2-3 men on them. Stop those two and Sturridge isn't a problem any more.
Can, Wijnaldum and Lucas weren't any better. They provided next to nothing going forward.
Milner did a decent job on the wing, he got a few crosses in and attacked at every opportunity just like he's expected to do, but his crosses we're just too easy to defend because we either didn't have anyone in the box or the few player who were in the box just weren't effective.

I'm not sure what the solution is, we don't have another Mané in squad and Coutinho has just come back from injury.

 

[StevieM]

Here's the thing for me.

Attacking trio - Coutinho, Firmino & Mane.

Central midfield - Lallana & Wijnaldum

Defensive Midfield - Henderson.

You have Sturridge, Origi & Can to cover.

If we're buying players better than each of them (not Jermaine Defoe) - and specifically for that time - then yeah - great.

For me - there's too much "mid-season" WE HAVE TO BUUUUUUYYYY!!!! going on.