[quote author=Wizardry link=topic=43933.msg1293606#msg1293606 date=1299078212]
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=43933.msg1293557#msg1293557 date=1299073280]
[quote author=Wizardry link=topic=43933.msg1293487#msg1293487 date=1299069960]
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=43933.msg1293434#msg1293434 date=1299065661]
The Mancs aren't firing on all cylinders. They're where they are in the league as much due to referees' selective blindness as due to their own efforts. Our best XI can take them all right.
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[quote author=Themn link=topic=43933.msg1293434#msg1293434 date=1299065661]
They're where they are because everyone else has fucked up at various points this season.
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I know they're worthy of all the despise in the world but, seriously, do we not ever get tired of trying to explain away their success as being the result of conspiracy or cosmic forces or some other power utterly unrelated to their football? The first 65 minutes last night for those who missed it; one of the most expensively assembled teams in history, playing for their lives, playing to their potential in front of their own fans....... and getting utterly dominated by this team we're saying is not playing well or is leading the league cause of everyone elses failings. Seriously?
If they turn up and play like that against us I don't care who's fit - Carroll, Stevie, Suarez, Agger - it's make no difference. We'll get beat and beat convincingly. It constantly astonishes me that they can produce a performance like that with the midfield they've got. It looks like the midfield of a mid table or even bottom end table side yet they played Chelsea off the park for more than an hour. Every time it happens I resolve to give their midfield more respect but then I look at them indiviually again and think "nope, they're seriously not that good" - yet they're on top of the league and probably going through to the last 8 of the best teams in Europe.
No matter how much we want to believe it the whole continent has not rolled over in some massive conspiracy to have them sitting where they are.
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It's unlike you to caricature an argument quite this much. For one thing Chelsea are themselves both aging and slipping (we were full value for beating them too, not that long ago). For another, nobody's trying to "explain away their [i.e.the Mancs'] success" in any general way - what themn and I are saying is that their position on top of the league this season owes a fair bit to factors other than the way they themselves have played.
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I don't think I'm guilty of creating a caricature in this case at all JJ - certainly not for the purposes of this perspective. The Chelsea that turned up at the Bridge last night was unrecognizable as the same stilted team we got past a few weeks ago. They were ferocious in the tackle, Torres was enormously improved in his movment and link up, Luiz was excellent, Essien was powerful and dangerous - in short they looked quality.
My observation is valid; we can point all we like at Chelsea dropping off the pace and, in terms of consistency, they have. But Spurs have come on enormously last season and this yet still sit well behind them. City have spent an inconceivable amount of money yet still can't handle them; Arsenal are playing very nicely but still hang from their coat tails. We can probably dismiss all this but the reality is that they're not just winning domestically; no amount of local refs pocketing brown envelopes is helping them through Europe. I think they'll make the semi's at least in the CL - and they won't look out of place there.
I don't want to praise the mancs or Ferguson but it strikes me as strange that at the start of each season there seems to be a line up of posters on here predicting their demise and posters - like you - who warn against such predictions. Yet then, when they unsurprisingly sit atop the league and continue untroubled through the CL, these same posters claim they're somehow lucky or it's due to other factors that they hold such a position...... season after season after season.
I worked for a company some time ago which developed a product that most medical facilities the world over were seemingly enraptured with and sales were a mere formality. We developed it further, presented to state and national federations around the world and amazed these experts with its capabilities - yet the expected avalanche of sales didn't eventuate. We looked at our marketing, the prevailing economic conditions, localised legislative requirements, baseless comments from struggling competitors; there were always factors. But, finally, a director summarised it very nicely in a Board meeting; "maybe this "wonderful" product isn't quite as wonderful as we think it is". It was certainly excellent in what it did but, somehow, the reality was it just missed the mark.
The same is true of us and our views of the mancs - in reverse. Mabybe the reason why they keep winning titles and having success - domestically and abroad - isn't due to a plethora of other factors and is simply because they're not as bad as we think they are.
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We're talking past each other here. I wouldn't actually disagree with much of what you say above, but what you're criticising still isn't the point themn and I were making, which relates very specifically to this season and by which I stand. They do have an extraordinary winning habit, but this season in particular they've also had a sod of a lot of help.
Perhaps it would be more interesting and productive to think about how ManUre's winning momentum has been created. My own view is that it stems largely from the overpowering mental strength of that vicious old b@stard in charge. What's galling is that he got the general idea from Shanks (who managed to establish much the same psychological hold over his own players AND most opposition without being a complete cnut, but there you are). At any rate, while I can see competitors arising to challenge them (and hope we'll be among those) I can't see them actually slipping behind to any appreciable extent until Ginsoak retires.
