Adam Lallana

[Leo]

By the age of 21 Isco had notched up over 70 apperances for newly flush Malaga, helped them qualify for the CL for the first time in their history, put up some decent stats in the CL in the following season and won the U-21 European championship with Spain. He was regarded as one of the top talents around by that point and Real weren't alone in wanting him.

I was talking about what has he done for Madrid to warrant 25 million.
Nothing basically.
He was talking about a player like Henderson that wasn't worth 25 despite the fact that he was a crucial cog in a team that finished 2nd.
And then Isco who can't get a start is definitely worth 25 it's a load of football manager bollox.

 

[keniget]

I was talking about what has he done for Madrid to warrant 25 million.
Nothing basically.
He was talking about a player like Henderson that wasn't worth 25 despite the fact that he was a crucial cog in a team that finished 2nd.
And then Isco who can't get a start is definitely worth 25 it's a load of football manager bollox.

The fact that he's been used more as a squad player (though he's still started a decent amount of games) doesn't change what I said above - he's a major talent and everyone knows it.

As for what he's done - he's put up some good numbers, played in some big games and helped tilt the CL final in Real Madrid's favour when he came on. Not too shabby.

 

[Oncy]

Isco is brilliant.
Id have him all day.
No way would Madrid sell though.

 

[dmishra]

I was talking about what has he done for Madrid to warrant 25 million.

Nothing basically.

He was talking about a player like Henderson that wasn't worth 25 despite the fact that he was a crucial cog in a team that finished 2nd.

And then Isco who can't get a start is definitely worth 25 it's a load of football manager bollox.

Er, Isco started 38 games this season - 11 goals and 9 assists in that.

 

[dmishra]

Isco is probably the best young attacking midfield talent in Europe at the moment. I'd pay 25 million for him in a heartbeat.

 

[Hansern]

Isco is brilliant. Real would never sell though.

 

[mark1975]

And then Isco who can't get a start is definitely worth 25 it's a load of football manager bollox.

It's all about perspective though, have a look at the players he's playing second fiddle to and their cost/worth. It's all relative. Buying clubs could use it as a bargaining tool, the fact he's a squad player, but anyway. A young player not quite getting a look-in at a big club, with big players, is hardly a new or damning phenomenon.

 

[Spaghetti Legs]

Why was Henderson compared to Isco anyway? its another one of these crappy irrelevant comparisons to add to the pile in this thread.

If we put Hendo on the market to anyone in the league we would clear 20 million with ease, Mourinho loves his sort and Arsenal/Man Utd are screaming out for a Henderson in their midfield, City would have a look because they cant afford not to when a top English player comes on the market, 26 mill they paid for Milner.

 

[Whirly]

Why was Henderson compared to Isco anyway? its another one of these crappy irrelevant comparisons to add to the pile in this thread.

If we put Hendo on the market to anyone in the league we would clear 20 million with ease, Mourinho loves his sort and Arsenal/Man Utd are screaming out for a Henderson in their midfield, City would have a look because they cant afford not to when a top English player comes on the market, 26 mill they paid for Milner.

Because some people think Spurs would pay more for Hendo than Real paid for a player like Isco.

You can't just toss every comparison aside and call it irrelevant. That's lazy reasoning to justify ethnocentric policy.

 

[Ryan]

Hendo isn't great value right now at 16M. That's about what he's worth to everybody else.

We obviously value him much more highly, as he's a core player and is very important to our system.

Sorry, that makes absolutely no sense.

Regardless, if we were selling Jordan Henderson tomorrow, we'd get a lot more than 16M for him.

 

[Spaghetti Legs]

Because some people think Spurs would pay more for Hendo than Real paid for a player like Isco.



You can't just toss every comparison aside and call it irrelevant. That's lazy reasoning to justify ethnocentric policy.

You have spun that one quite a bit.

Pesam made a post about Hendersons value and you randomly compare Isco, whats Isco got to do with Hendersons value? your logic seems to be that Real paid that for Isco so Henderson isnt worth near that?

And i dont toss every comparison aside but that one really does belong on the bonfire.

 

[Fabio]

A players value is aligned with how valuable he is to the team he currently plays in

Lallana is worth 25m to saints. Easily. Everything goes through him. It's like Gerrard back in the day for us.

It's not like they're able to replace a talent like that easily. Of course they're entitled to want top dollar.

 

[Whirly]

You have spun that one quite a bit.

Pesam made a post about Hendersons value and you randomly compare Isco, whats Isco got to do with Hendersons value? your logic seems to be that Real paid that for Isco so Henderson isnt worth near that?

And i dont toss every comparison aside but that one really does belong on the bonfire.

Haha, I'm the one spinning it?

It's not a random comparison by any stretch of the imagination. If you don't want to compare Henderson to other top players around Europe that can play his position, then what's the point of even following the sport?

Believe it or not, every player's market value is contingent on the market value of other players. And simply put, Isco is a much better player and talent than Henderson, no matter how much you want to romantically big up players that we have. So why would clubs pay more for Henderson than Real paid after some fairly public negotiations for Isco? It's not because Liverpool players are magically 40% more valuable on the basis of them pulling on a red shirt for the almighty Liverpool Football Club, I can tell you that much.

And I can't remember a single out of league comparison you haven't tossed aside, usually with halfbaked reasoning.

But you have tremendous difficulty following my logic. I'm not saying Hendo's value is directly contingent on Isco's fee. I am saying Hendo's value is inherently lower than the 25M figure being touted around. And to make a point, I'm giving an example of a fee paid for a top quality young player of higher caliber, paid by a top club with unlimited funds, who bought him as a squad player. That dispels the myth of Henderson's youth and intangibles being a huge determinant in increasing his value beyond what he brings to the team immediately, as Isco's ability and youth is significantly higher, for example.

I can provide more examples to illustrate why nobody in their right mind would pay 25M for Hendo, but you'll probably just dismiss them, as there is only one Jordan Henderson in this world, and he is a magical unicorn who can cure cancer if he runs enough. Or something.

 

[Leo]

Because some people think Spurs would pay more for Hendo than Real paid for a player like Isco.

You can't just toss every comparison aside and call it irrelevant. That's lazy reasoning to justify ethnocentric policy.

Who said that Spurs would pay more for Hendo?

 

[Whirly]

A players value is aligned with how valuable he is to the team he currently plays in

Lallana is worth 25m to saints. Easily. Everything goes through him. It's like Gerrard back in the day for us.

It's not like they're able to replace a talent like that easily. Of course they're entitled to want top dollar.

I think there's a difference between what a player's worth, and what is the ideal selling price for a player. The latter accounting for the intangibles the player brings to the team, and his importance to the squad. A new player will need to be taught to play in the system, and so on.

The buying club doesn't necessarily need to account for the gap between the two figures, especially if the player wants the transfer. That's how you get a favorable fee for a quality player, and keep your reputation as a tough negotiator in the transfer market.

If you get labeled as a club who will pay whatever the number the selling club wants, you'll get taken for a ride on transfer fees every time.

 

[Whirly]

Who said that Spurs would pay more for Hendo?

Whirly do you think if Henderson was available for £25m Chelsea, United, Spurs etc wouldn't snap our hands off for him?

I didn't mention City or Arse because they're well sorted for CM'ers already.

 

[Leo]

Ok fair enough.
Thought it was directed at me.
Was Luiz valued at 40 million to Chelsea before he was sold?
Was he fuck.
The point you are trying to make must be lost in translation somewhere here.
If you really think Henderson is only worth 16 million to other clubs you are simply wrong given the market in England and his age and superb form are more factors.

 

[mark1975]

Haha, I'm the one spinning it?

It's not a random comparison by any stretch of the imagination. If you don't want to compare Henderson to other top players around Europe that can play his position, then what's the point of even following the sport?

Believe it or not, every player's market value is contingent on the market value of other players. And simply put, Isco is a much better player and talent than Henderson, no matter how much you want to romantically big up players that we have. So why would clubs pay more for Henderson than Real paid after some fairly public negotiations for Isco? It's not because Liverpool players are magically 40% more valuable on the basis of them pulling on a red shirt for the almighty Liverpool Football Club, I can tell you that much.

And I can't remember a single out of league comparison you haven't tossed aside, usually with halfbaked reasoning.

But you have tremendous difficulty following my logic. I'm not saying Hendo's value is directly contingent on Isco's fee. I am saying Hendo's value is inherently lower than the 25M figure being touted around. And to make a point, I'm giving an example of a fee paid for a top quality young player of higher caliber, paid by a top club with unlimited funds, who bought him as a squad player. That dispels the myth of Henderson's youth and intangibles being a huge determinant in increasing his value beyond what he brings to the team immediately, as Isco's ability and youth is significantly higher, for example.

I can provide more examples to illustrate why nobody in their right mind would pay 25M for Hendo, but you'll probably just dismiss them, as there is only one Jordan Henderson in this world, and he is a magical unicorn who can cure cancer if he runs enough. Or something.

We're talking about two entirely different leagues and cultures. The qualities you pay for with Henderson, suit this league. The ones you pay for with Isco, are based on what he's doing and how he's performed and is currently performing in Spain.

Henderson's worth over £20m in this league because he's developed into an integral player for us, from what was initially a promising, if arguably overpriced beginning. He's athletic, workman-like but has enough about him to play in a passing side that is fast, aggressive and sharp in the opposition half. That might not be something a Spanish team would be looking for, but it's something that's perfect for this league at this moment in time. Isco has qualities that see him as one of the brightest young midfield talents in Europe. He might go on to be one of the best, he might step onto English soil one day and be about as useful as what Arsenal picked up in the Summer.

Like I said, the market is distorted and however much player X's value has an effect on player Y's value, there are so many other factors to weigh in. A £20m player today can easily be a £10m player next Summer, or a £40m player. A players value to one footballing culture is dependent on his value to that environment. We judge him as a £20m player (or whatever), because his current profile dictates as such in that country. Regardless of comparative quality between (for example) Isco and Hendo, Henderson's value is the same because it's what he's valued at to this team and this league. Whether that translates to another footballing nation should he one day move there, is when we find out if his club market value is an accurate picture of what he offers the European market. His market value, should Chelsea or City want to buy him, could easily be £25m, because of the factors mentioned. Whether they would is irrelevant really, if one of them showed interest tomorrow, that's the type of fee we're talking about. Look at the valuations we were giving City over Skrtel and Agger.

Saying "why would teams pay more for Henderson" is ignoring the fact that we have. Other teams have paid similar fees for similar players when they could have, in theory, bought better players from the continent. Has James Milner been a worse purchase than Ozil? It doesn't teach us anything new, just that there's alot of bullshit when it comes to player valuations, but we knew that already.

 

[Whirly]

Ok fair enough.
Thought it was directed at me.
Was Luiz valued at 40 million to Chelsea before he was sold?
Was he fuck.
The point you are trying to make must be lost in translation somewhere here.
If you really think Henderson is only worth 16 million to other clubs you are simply wrong given the market in England and his age and superb form are more factors.

PSG are the anomaly though, they don't care about the fees they pay for players. That's not really a fair comparison with us.

I think Henderson is massively overrated by us Liverpool supporters. He has a fantastic work ethic and energy, which also lowers his injury concerns. He has age on his side to an extent, but he turns 24 in a few weeks. His style of play will either mean he declines sharply when his fitness starts to be harder to maintain as he ages, or conversely his great work ethic will mean he plays very well into his 30's due to what great fitness he's in.

At this point though, we've absolutely seen flashes. He's had some fantastic matches which have been highlighted, and quite a few of late where he's been anonymous, and those have been glossed over. The idea that his absence was the main reason we fell short of the title seems like the easy answer people are jumping to, I'd say we were collectively due to drop some points late this season, we were very lucky to go on such a long stretch of wins. Our form wasn't great, just our results after all. Squad fatigue as a whole played the biggest role IMO.

The biggest concern is that the goals and assists aren't there. His technique isn't consistently good enough to be a player in that high bracket, but that's something that can and needs to be improved. But in our squad, he's going to get loads of chances in and around the box, and he needs to do much much better. Calling his season in front of goal anything better than wasteful is very generous.

The pressing is key, and his passing in tight areas has improved, but he still has a tendency to be sloppy with the ball. It's a good thing he has the legs to make up for his errors, but again, he needs to be much better.

The lack of goals, especially given the opportunities he's had, is going to be a huge red flag for clubs looking at Hendo. Goals do win games after all, and if you're spending 25M on a 24YO CM, you'd expect a more finished product.

If he was a foreign player, we wouldn't spend more than 10M on him at this stage. Is he worth a 15M premium for bringing what intangibles he does to a squad? Probably not.

 

[SummerOnions]

If you have to Binny your own posts you're probably chatting shit

 

[Whirly]

We're talking about two entirely different leagues and cultures. The qualities you pay for with Henderson, suit this league. The ones you pay for with Isco, are based on what he's doing and how he's performed and is currently performing in Spain.

Henderson's worth over £20m in this league because he's developed into an integral player for us, from what was initially a promising, if arguably overpriced beginning. He's athletic, workman-like but has enough about him to play in a passing side that is fast, aggressive and sharp in the opposition half. That might not be something a Spanish team would be looking for, but it's something that's perfect for this league at this moment in time. Isco has qualities that see him as one of the brightest young midfield talents in Europe. He might go on to be one of the best, he might step onto English soil one day and be about as useful as what Arsenal picked up in the Summer.

Like I said, the market is distorted and however much player X's value has an effect on player Y's value, there are so many other factors to weigh in. A £20m player today can easily be a £10m player next Summer, or a £40m player. A players value to one footballing culture is dependent on his value to that environment. We judge him as a £20m player (or whatever), because his current profile dictates as such in that country. Regardless of comparative quality between (for example) Isco and Hendo, Henderson's value is the same because it's what he's valued at to this team and this league. Whether that translates to another footballing nation should he one day move there, is when we find out if his club market value is an accurate picture of what he offers the European market. His market value, should Chelsea or City want to buy him, could easily be £25m, because of the factors mentioned. Whether they would is irrelevant really, if one of them showed interest tomorrow, that's the type of fee we're talking about. Look at the valuations we were giving City over Skrtel and Agger.

Saying "why would teams pay more for Henderson" is ignoring the fact that we have. Other teams who paid similar fees for other players when they could have, in theory, bought better players from the continent. Has James Milner been a worse purchase than Ozil? It doesn't teach us anything new, just that there's alot of bullshit when it comes to player valuations, but we knew that already.

I can't argue with any of this.

But I think there's a point to be made that Isco suits the Spanish game much better than Henderson does the English one, just on the merit of his talent/technique. La Liga has fewer clubs who would buy him absolutely, so that could mean his value is depreciated a bit compared to England's more competitive top 6-8 clubs and Henderson. However, it's pretty well known in Spain how deep Real's pockets are, as we've seen them pay in the Illaramendi transfer shortly after.

If you look at Henderson as another club though, or even as a supporter of another club, what do you see? Fairly young, but should be hitting his top years soon, needs to add goals to his game, fantastic work ethic and fitness. Passing and linkup play has been much better in the last season, but can still improve. Appears to be a leader on the pitch, and is a willing worker.

We've obviously grown attached to him as a club player, and wouldn't sell him for less than 25M. But if you're another club, that player is a project, who will make or break in the next few seasons, depending on if he can live up to his potential. Spending more than 10-15M on him would be a gamble, but as he's English and helps with the quotas, 15-20M could be okay. If he can score 10 goals a season, and really sharpen his passing, then he could be a regular in the first team. If not, a very solid squad player, who may or may not justify the fee.

 

[Mystic]

Wasn't this thread about Lallana? Crazy what suggesting his surname is a little exotic can do to a thread.

 

[Whirly]

Wasn't this thread about Lallana? Crazy what suggesting his surname is a little exotic can do to a thread.

Especially when it's suggested after the fee comparison to Isco was already posted.

Madness.

 

[Mystic]

Especially when it's suggested after the fee comparison to Isco was already posted.

Madness.

Point was that was that seems like the last discussion in the thread which was even remotely on topic. Make another thread if you want to argue the value of Henderson and Isco without even attempting to relate it to our pursuit of Lallana.

 

[mark1975]

I can't argue with any of this.

But I think there's a point to be made that Isco suits the Spanish game much better than Henderson does the English one, just on the merit of his talent/technique. La Liga has fewer clubs who would buy him absolutely, so that could mean his value is depreciated a bit compared to England's more competitive top 6-8 clubs and Henderson. However, it's pretty well known in Spain how deep Real's pockets are, as we've seen them pay in the Illaramendi transfer shortly after.

If you look at Henderson as another club though, or even as a supporter of another club, what do you see? Fairly young, but should be hitting his top years soon, needs to add goals to his game, fantastic work ethic and fitness. Passing and linkup play has been much better in the last season, but can still improve. Appears to be a leader on the pitch, and is a willing worker.

We've obviously grown attached to him as a club player, and wouldn't sell him for less than 25M. But if you're another club, that player is a project, who will make or break in the next few seasons, depending on if he can live up to his potential. Spending more than 10-15M on him would be a gamble, but as he's English and helps with the quotas, 15-20M could be okay. If he can score 10 goals a season, and really sharpen his passing, then he could be a regular in the first team. If not, a very solid squad player, who may or may not justify the fee.

The point about English clubs being more open to Isco, than Spanish clubs to Henderson, is surely just symptomatic of how rare it is for British players to go overseas?

Anyway... The arguments are becoming about as distorted as the market though, because it's difficult to argue a case without picking holes in it, I think that shows just how fucked up the market is tbh. I'm sure we're probably in agreement anyway though, just making the point from different angles.

 

[Leo]

PSG are the anomaly though, they don't care about the fees they pay for players. That's not really a fair comparison with us.

I think Henderson is massively overrated by us Liverpool supporters. He has a fantastic work ethic and energy, which also lowers his injury concerns. He has age on his side to an extent, but he turns 24 in a few weeks. His style of play will either mean he declines sharply when his fitness starts to be harder to maintain as he ages, or conversely his great work ethic will mean he plays very well into his 30's due to what great fitness he's in.

At this point though, we've absolutely seen flashes. He's had some fantastic matches which have been highlighted, and quite a few of late where he's been anonymous, and those have been glossed over. The idea that his absence was the main reason we fell short of the title seems like the easy answer people are jumping to, I'd say we were collectively due to drop some points late this season, we were very lucky to go on such a long stretch of wins. Our form wasn't great, just our results after all. Squad fatigue as a whole played the biggest role IMO.

The biggest concern is that the goals and assists aren't there. His technique isn't consistently good enough to be a player in that high bracket, but that's something that can and needs to be improved. But in our squad, he's going to get loads of chances in and around the box, and he needs to do much much better. Calling his season in front of goal anything better than wasteful is very generous.

The pressing is key, and his passing in tight areas has improved, but he still has a tendency to be sloppy with the ball. It's a good thing he has the legs to make up for his errors, but again, he needs to be much better.

The lack of goals, especially given the opportunities he's had, is going to be a huge red flag for clubs looking at Hendo. Goals do win games after all, and if you're spending 25M on a 24YO CM, you'd expect a more finished product.

If he was a foreign player, we wouldn't spend more than 10M on him at this stage. Is he worth a 15M premium for bringing what intangibles he does to a squad? Probably not.

There's more to the game than goals assists and opta Joe stats.
His leadership alone was hugely missed during the two games in which we blew the league.
Every team needs a water carrier.
And some of them are priceless given what they add in team spirit and effort.

 

[Oncy]

I can't argue with any of this.

But I think there's a point to be made that Isco suits the Spanish game much better than Henderson does the English one

Sorry, what?

 

[Ryan]

Whirly - are you on drugs?

 

[Oncy]

If he is, its a bad trip.

 

[Whirly]

Whirly - are you on drugs?

Nope.