Poll 6CM Voting Poll

[Richey]

[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=40111.msg1103031#msg1103031 date=1273574516]
[quote author=Richey link=topic=40111.msg1102983#msg1102983 date=1273572257]
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=40111.msg1102976#msg1102976 date=1273571634]
[quote author=Portly link=topic=40111.msg1102914#msg1102914 date=1273568717]
True a Lab/Lib coalition would represent a majority of the electorate, but a Con/Lib coalition would represent a bigger majority and a Con/Lab coalition an even bigger one! ;D
[/quote]

Of course it would, but the two parties are fundamentally opposed.
[/quote]

So what say you to all of those people who voted LibDem in order to get rid of the Labour govt?
[/quote]

They failed!
[/quote]

They might yet succeed though

 

[Pesam]

The Tories have a 60+ seat majority in England, let them govern England - the Scots, Welsh & NI already have their own devolved parliaments - everyone wins!

 

[Richey]

[quote author=Pesam link=topic=40111.msg1103044#msg1103044 date=1273574806]
The Tories have a 60+ seat majority in England, let them govern England - the Scots, Welsh & NI already have their own devolved parliaments - everyone wins!
[/quote]

Well this is an issue you see. Labour's crazy plan involves support from a party (the SNP) who wants Scotland to be independent. They will obviously push for that as much as they can, so Labour would have to concede SOMETHING to them. If they edge towards their ultimate goal then that obviously would render that insane coalition null and void by removing the 6 SNP seats, 11 LD seats and 41 Labour seats from Westminster, which would give the Tories (who would lose 1. Big deal) a fairly healthy majority

 

[DHSC]

I read somewhere that "as Sinn Fein are unlikely to take up their five seats, the notional majority required would fall to 323". What does this mean? Why would Sinn Fein not take up their seats?

 

[Portly]

[quote author=DHSC link=topic=40111.msg1103067#msg1103067 date=1273576127]Why would Sinn Fein not take up their seats?
[/quote]

The history is complicated. Northern Ireland is part of the UK because there is a majority of Protestants called Unionists who don't want to be part of the Irish Republic. However Sinn Fein which is a basically Catholic party, wanting Northern Ireland to unite with the Irish Republic, has won a number of Westminster seats in Nationalist areas. Sinn Fein is historically the political arm of the IRA and the Sinn Fein MP's would not want to rub shoulders with British politicians in Westminster.

So it's a kind of protest.

 

[DHSC]

Why stand in the first place, if that's the case Mr Portly?

 

[Richey]

[quote author=DHSC link=topic=40111.msg1103086#msg1103086 date=1273577051]
Why stand in the first place, if that's the case Mr Portly?
[/quote]

As part of the protest I assume. The idea is its showing disregard for the Westminster parliament.

 

[DHSC]

[quote author=Richey link=topic=40111.msg1103089#msg1103089 date=1273577138]
[quote author=DHSC link=topic=40111.msg1103086#msg1103086 date=1273577051]
Why stand in the first place, if that's the case Mr Portly?
[/quote]

As part of the protest I assume. The idea is its showing disregard for the Westminster parliament.
[/quote]

Sorry for all the questions, but doesn't that mean that the constituents are not represented? Who decides what gets done around the area? Using an example from Mr Portly, who decides when the binman comes and collect the thrash?

 

[Richey]

[quote author=DHSC link=topic=40111.msg1103096#msg1103096 date=1273577367]
[quote author=Richey link=topic=40111.msg1103089#msg1103089 date=1273577138]
[quote author=DHSC link=topic=40111.msg1103086#msg1103086 date=1273577051]
Why stand in the first place, if that's the case Mr Portly?
[/quote]

As part of the protest I assume. The idea is its showing disregard for the Westminster parliament.
[/quote]

Sorry for all the questions, but doesn't that mean that the constituents are not represented? Who decides what gets done around the area? Using an example from Mr Portly, who decides when the binman comes and collect the thrash?
[/quote]

Well that is a local council issue anyway but I would guess that on major UK wide issues the people in those areas simply do not get represented in Westminster. They are represented in the NI Assembly I believe though, but I have to admit I don't know enough about NI politics to comment on what powers that has

 

[Portly]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/apr/08/sinn-fein-expenses

You will see from this article that Sinn Fein MP's have been criticised for claiming expenses for second homes in London while not taking their seats. However Sinn Fein claim to provide a first-rate service to constituents. I don't know if this is true, but I guess it would be possible to do this without actually attending Parliament by means of letters, emails and so-on.

 

[Judge Jules]

[quote author=Richey link=topic=40111.msg1103050#msg1103050 date=1273575208]
[quote author=Pesam link=topic=40111.msg1103044#msg1103044 date=1273574806]
The Tories have a 60+ seat majority in England, let them govern England - the Scots, Welsh & NI already have their own devolved parliaments - everyone wins!
[/quote]

Well this is an issue you see. Labour's crazy plan involves support from a party (the SNP) who wants Scotland to be independent. They will obviously push for that as much as they can, so Labour would have to concede SOMETHING to them. If they edge towards their ultimate goal then that obviously would render that insane coalition null and void by removing the 6 SNP seats, 11 LD seats and 41 Labour seats from Westminster, which would give the Tories (who would lose 1. Big deal) a fairly healthy majority
[/quote]

Hastening the breakup of the UK would also hasten the absorption of its component parts into the EU. Our Celtic cousins may not like Westminster being the seat of government, but wait till they find out what it would mean to have that situated in Brussels instead. Just ask the Irish, folks, if you don't believe me.

 

[Richey]

[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=40111.msg1103113#msg1103113 date=1273577949]
[quote author=Richey link=topic=40111.msg1103050#msg1103050 date=1273575208]
[quote author=Pesam link=topic=40111.msg1103044#msg1103044 date=1273574806]
The Tories have a 60+ seat majority in England, let them govern England - the Scots, Welsh & NI already have their own devolved parliaments - everyone wins!
[/quote]

Well this is an issue you see. Labour's crazy plan involves support from a party (the SNP) who wants Scotland to be independent. They will obviously push for that as much as they can, so Labour would have to concede SOMETHING to them. If they edge towards their ultimate goal then that obviously would render that insane coalition null and void by removing the 6 SNP seats, 11 LD seats and 41 Labour seats from Westminster, which would give the Tories (who would lose 1. Big deal) a fairly healthy majority
[/quote]

Hastening the breakup of the UK would also hasten the absorption of its component parts into the EU. Our Celtic cousins may not like Westminster being the seat of government, but wait till they find out what it would mean to have that situated in Brussels instead. Just ask the Irish, folks, if you don't believe me.
[/quote]

My friend Dan Hannan was on the radio last night speculating on whether a ConLib pact might lead to a referendum on EU membership. Rather far fetched admittedly but he justified it by saying that if they are proposing that one area they disagree on (electoral reform) should go to referendum then logically it could follow that another area they disagree on (Europe) might also be considered for a referendum.

Certainly an interesting thought.

 

[Portly]

I am nervous that a referendum on the EU would result in a vote for getting out.

There is a possibility that this might turn out to be a good thing, but the enormity of it rather worries me.

 

[vantage]

[quote author=Portly link=topic=40111.msg1103082#msg1103082 date=1273576698]
[quote author=DHSC link=topic=40111.msg1103067#msg1103067 date=1273576127]Why would Sinn Fein not take up their seats?
[/quote]

The history is complicated. Northern Ireland is part of the UK because there is a majority of Protestants called Unionists who don't want to be part of the Irish Republic. However Sinn Fein which is a basically Catholic party, wanting Northern Ireland to unite with the Irish Republic, has won a number of Westminster seats in Nationalist areas. Sinn Fein is historically the political arm of the IRA and the Sinn Fein MP's would not want to rub shoulders with British politicians in Westminster.

So it's a kind of protest.
[/quote]
If they can't be arsed to turn up, they should loose their pay and a by-election should be held with that party not admissable. There should be minimum levels of attendance.

 

[Judge Jules]

Portly,

As opposed to the enormity of the following?

(a) The UK is the second largest net contributor to EU finances after Germany, to the tune of £55 billion a year, or £39 mill.a day, or just under £1,800 for every UK taxpayer. Any time you see reference to some project or other "funded by the EU", remember that for every pound received from Brussels you and I have already paid them twice as much.

(b) The Common Agricultural Policy, otherwise known as the French Farmers' Funding Trough, puts an extra £30 PER WEEK on the food bill of the average UK family.

(c) The Common Fisheries Policy has decimated our fishing industry, and the practices of the European fishing fleets which now have a right to fish in UK waters have decimated fish stocks.

(d) Gordon Brown's promise a while ago to "fight for British jobs for British workers" was a purely cosmetic one, made in the full knowledge that he would not be allowed to keep that promise by virtue of the EU's policy of "free movement of labour".

(e) The UK's Lord Chief Justice, Lord Judge (no relation 😉), warned recently that changes brought about by the Lisbon Treaty have singificantly increased the power of the European courts over British law and British court decisions, and asked: "Twenty years down the line,where will we be?" One immediate effect of these changes is that, as things currently stand, even if there were to be a "no" vote in a referendum on EU membership, a British government could not give effect to it unless it were prepared to abrogate its existing treaty obligations - in effect, to break international law.

Nonetheless I know which enormity I'd sooner take a chance on, and it isn't the one we're currently stuck with.

 

[Delinquent]

That's a very one-sided account of things.

 

[Judge Jules]

I can't offer any apology for that, Del, because the more I've looked into all this over the years, the less I've found myself impressed by any so-called benefits claimed for EU membership. Pretty much all of them are either insubstantial or altogether illusory, and they don't even begin to balance out the formidable list of disadvantages. This "project" wasn't introduced, and isn't being pursued, for your benefit or mine.

 

[vantage]

Saw a lot of pissed off looking Jeermans on the news last night after being given the good news that the Euro had been saved, as had Greece, Portugal and Spain, and the biggest contributor would be Germany. Oh well. Every cloud and all that......

 

[Portly]

[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=40111.msg1103188#msg1103188 date=1273584561] This "project" wasn't introduced, and isn't being pursued, for your benefit or mine.
[/quote]

I fully agree with your objections Jules, and I agree that there is an unspoken agenda at the heart of Brussels to nudge the EU progressively towards an eventual federal nation like the USA. That was why the Euro was introduced, for political and not economic reasons, because it never made economic sense for the member countries of the Eurozone to lose control over their individual national economies in return for pretty derisory economic benefits.

My difficulty with leaving the EU is just a feeling in my bones that Britain is very much a European country and ought to participate in the European project. Rather like the United Nations, it is bloated and corrupt but I just feel we still ought to be a member!

 

[Judge Jules]

[quote author=vantage link=topic=40111.msg1103191#msg1103191 date=1273584821]
Saw a lot of pissed off looking Jeermans on the news last night after being given the good news that the Euro had been saved, as had Greece, Portugal and Spain, and the biggest contributor would be Germany. Oh well. Every cloud and all that......
[/quote]

But we'll be the second biggest, despite not being in the euro. Alistair Darling signed us up to it in just the last week or so. >🙁

 

[Richey]

The EU is FAR from perfect but if we left we would still have to abide by its trade laws yet we'd have no influence upon them.

 

[Judge Jules]

[quote author=Portly link=topic=40111.msg1103194#msg1103194 date=1273585153]
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=40111.msg1103188#msg1103188 date=1273584561] This "project" wasn't introduced, and isn't being pursued, for your benefit or mine.
[/quote]

I fully agree with your objections Jules, and I agree that there is an unspoken agenda at the heart of Brussels to nudge the EU progressively towards an eventual federal nation like the USA. That was why the Euro was introduced, for political and not economic reasons, because it never made economic sense for the member countries of the Eurozone to lose control over their individual national economies in return for pretty derisory economic benefits.

My difficulty with leaving the EU is just a feeling in my bones that Britain is very much a European country and ought to participate in the European project. Rather like the United Nations, it is bloated and corrupt but I just feel we still ought to be a member!
[/quote]

Where Europe is concerned, Portly, I know what you mean. With my largely European ancestry, passionate interest in European culture and hard-won degree in European languages, I should be the quintessential "pro-European". However, signing up for the project means signing up for too much of this damaging nonsense. If ever there was an issue over which the head needs to rule the heart, this is it.

 

[Judge Jules]

[quote author=Richey link=topic=40111.msg1103199#msg1103199 date=1273585573]
The EU is FAR from perfect but if we left we would still have to abide by its trade laws yet we'd have no influence upon them.
[/quote]

That, Richey mate, is a myth and an extremely damaging one. For one thing, even much smaller economies than ours (Norway, Switzerland) trade happily, and in surplus, with the EU without being disadvantaged by those laws, and economies on the scale of the UK's certainly do. For another, our trade with EU countries is in surplus because we offer what they want at a price they want to pay, and there are major markets elsewhere which will take up the slack if any of them were to decide to cut off their noses to spite their faces. In other words, they need us way more than we need them.

 

[Richey]

That doesn't make it a myth as such but I agree that it does counter my point. as I say I'm not totally convinced on the EU but that applies either way. If there was a referendum I would be unsure whether to go yes or no

 

[Richey]

vantage, I don't think the sinn fein MPs get paid because they aren't ever sworn in. No MPs are paid until then. Those elected last week are currently getting nothing, unlike those Ministers who lost their seats of course who are still drawing a salary because of all this mess!

Regarding minimum attendance I agree but who sacks them? They are employed by noone and the public have no power of recall as things stand.

Having said that on local councils there is a 6 month rule so in theory it should be possible

 

[Delinquent]

[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=40111.msg1103188#msg1103188 date=1273584561]
I can't offer any apology for that, Del, because the more I've looked into all this over the years, the less I've found myself impressed by any so-called benefits claimed for EU membership.Pretty much all of them are either insubstantial or altogether illusory, and they don't even begin to balance out the formidable list of disadvantages. This "project" wasn't introduced, and isn't being pursued, for your benefit or mine.
[/quote]

Still very one-sided and also rather speculative, JJ.

 

[livvy145]

It's being reported that talks between Labour and Lib Dems have broken down

 

[Pesam]

Bags and holdalls are being loaded into cars outside back of No. 10. Also according to BBC the No.10 official photographer has just entered no.10. It would seem an announcement is imminent.

 

[Portly]

[quote author=livvy185 link=topic=40111.msg1103247#msg1103247 date=1273589821]
It's being reported that talks between Labour and Lib Dems have broken down
[/quote]

According to sources, Ed Balls spoke severely to the Lib Dem negotiators as he considers himself to be the "guardian of Labour's manifesto."

The Lib Dem team is speaking to the Conservatives again at the moment.

I think a Conservative/Lib Dem agreement is likely as the alternative doesn't look workable. In a way it will be a shame for the Conservatives, as I feel that such a pact will damage them.

 

[Richey]

If Brown goes now he will at least retain a scrap of dignity. Maybe those LibDem talks were nothing more than "Will you deal with us?", "No"