Poll 6CM Voting Poll
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[quote author=Portly link=topic=40111.msg1100933#msg1100933 date=1273227580]
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=40111.msg1100916#msg1100916 date=1273225945]
That doesn't follow at all. The Conservatives currently have 36.1% of the vote. Yet their share of the seats stands at 291 - which gives them the best part of 45% of the seats in the House of Commons. The electoral system as it stands represents the best opportunity for the Conservatives to gain power with a majority. A PR system would see their share reduced significantly.
[/quote]
You are approaching this from a very one-eyed point of view. The unfairness of the electoral system benefits Labour rather more than it does the Tories. From the 621 results declared at the time of writing, the Tories have 291 (46.8%) and Labour have 251 (40.4%). However, the Tories have 36.0% of the total votes cast and Labour 29.3%.
[/quote]
It is an unfair system, whichever angle you take. Incidentally, I voted Lib-Dem (which turned out to be a wasted vote). Fox seemed to be implying that changing the voting system would somehow benefit the Tories. I think I've demonstrated that it wouldn't.
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=40111.msg1100916#msg1100916 date=1273225945]
That doesn't follow at all. The Conservatives currently have 36.1% of the vote. Yet their share of the seats stands at 291 - which gives them the best part of 45% of the seats in the House of Commons. The electoral system as it stands represents the best opportunity for the Conservatives to gain power with a majority. A PR system would see their share reduced significantly.
[/quote]
You are approaching this from a very one-eyed point of view. The unfairness of the electoral system benefits Labour rather more than it does the Tories. From the 621 results declared at the time of writing, the Tories have 291 (46.8%) and Labour have 251 (40.4%). However, the Tories have 36.0% of the total votes cast and Labour 29.3%.
[/quote]
It is an unfair system, whichever angle you take. Incidentally, I voted Lib-Dem (which turned out to be a wasted vote). Fox seemed to be implying that changing the voting system would somehow benefit the Tories. I think I've demonstrated that it wouldn't.
[quote author=Richey link=topic=40111.msg1100941#msg1100941 date=1273228263]
not sure but I don't think lib and lab could realistically and credibly form an alliance. More people voted tory than for either of them. And it could even be that the tories got more seats than the 2 combined!
[/quote]
Are you talking about both of them combined? In which case that's patently untrue.
not sure but I don't think lib and lab could realistically and credibly form an alliance. More people voted tory than for either of them. And it could even be that the tories got more seats than the 2 combined!
[/quote]
Are you talking about both of them combined? In which case that's patently untrue.
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=40111.msg1100942#msg1100942 date=1273228302] Fox seemed to be implying that changing the voting system would somehow benefit the Tories. I think I've demonstrated that it wouldn't.
[/quote]
Proportional representation - in whatever form - would massively benefit the Lib Dems who have always suffered from a huge discrepancy between the share of the vote and the number of seats won under first-past-the-post. I think it would therefore disadvantage Conservative and Labour more or less equally.
[/quote]
Proportional representation - in whatever form - would massively benefit the Lib Dems who have always suffered from a huge discrepancy between the share of the vote and the number of seats won under first-past-the-post. I think it would therefore disadvantage Conservative and Labour more or less equally.
[quote author=Richey link=topic=40111.msg1100945#msg1100945 date=1273228804]
In terms of seats it could definitely still be. It may be that labour will need other parties too. The tories have won the most seats comfortably so to exclude them wouldn't be right.
[/quote]
what do you think of brown though? he seems to me to be in the mood to sacrifice his last shreds of dignity so long as he fucks the tories...or is that just the fear talking?
i can't see any sign of him doing the decent thing.
In terms of seats it could definitely still be. It may be that labour will need other parties too. The tories have won the most seats comfortably so to exclude them wouldn't be right.
[/quote]
what do you think of brown though? he seems to me to be in the mood to sacrifice his last shreds of dignity so long as he fucks the tories...or is that just the fear talking?
i can't see any sign of him doing the decent thing.
[quote author=Portly link=topic=40111.msg1100907#msg1100907 date=1273224710]
[quote author=peterhague link=topic=40111.msg1100906#msg1100906 date=1273224554]
of course what i'm really hoping for is the independence of scotland. now that really would fuck labour and the lib dems, even under their precious PR.
[/quote]
And the independent Scotland would be able to sponge off the EU instead of sponging off England. It's too good to be true!
[/quote]
Given that the UK is STILL the EU's second largest net contributor, I'm afraid it would amount to the same thing.
[quote author=peterhague link=topic=40111.msg1100906#msg1100906 date=1273224554]
of course what i'm really hoping for is the independence of scotland. now that really would fuck labour and the lib dems, even under their precious PR.
[/quote]
And the independent Scotland would be able to sponge off the EU instead of sponging off England. It's too good to be true!
[/quote]
Given that the UK is STILL the EU's second largest net contributor, I'm afraid it would amount to the same thing.
[quote author=Portly link=topic=40111.msg1100957#msg1100957 date=1273229698]
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=40111.msg1100942#msg1100942 date=1273228302] Fox seemed to be implying that changing the voting system would somehow benefit the Tories. I think I've demonstrated that it wouldn't.
[/quote]
Proportional representation - in whatever form - would massively benefit the Lib Dems who have always suffered from a huge discrepancy between the share of the vote and the number of seats won under first-past-the-post. I think it would therefore disadvantage Conservative and Labour more or less equally.
[/quote]
It seems we're in agreement then.
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=40111.msg1100942#msg1100942 date=1273228302] Fox seemed to be implying that changing the voting system would somehow benefit the Tories. I think I've demonstrated that it wouldn't.
[/quote]
Proportional representation - in whatever form - would massively benefit the Lib Dems who have always suffered from a huge discrepancy between the share of the vote and the number of seats won under first-past-the-post. I think it would therefore disadvantage Conservative and Labour more or less equally.
[/quote]
It seems we're in agreement then.
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=40111.msg1100967#msg1100967 date=1273229912]
[quote author=Portly link=topic=40111.msg1100957#msg1100957 date=1273229698]
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=40111.msg1100942#msg1100942 date=1273228302] Fox seemed to be implying that changing the voting system would somehow benefit the Tories. I think I've demonstrated that it wouldn't.
[/quote]
Proportional representation - in whatever form - would massively benefit the Lib Dems who have always suffered from a huge discrepancy between the share of the vote and the number of seats won under first-past-the-post. I think it would therefore disadvantage Conservative and Labour more or less equally.
[/quote]
It seems we're in agreement then.
[/quote]
there can be no doubt that the system fucks up the liberals more
[quote author=Portly link=topic=40111.msg1100957#msg1100957 date=1273229698]
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=40111.msg1100942#msg1100942 date=1273228302] Fox seemed to be implying that changing the voting system would somehow benefit the Tories. I think I've demonstrated that it wouldn't.
[/quote]
Proportional representation - in whatever form - would massively benefit the Lib Dems who have always suffered from a huge discrepancy between the share of the vote and the number of seats won under first-past-the-post. I think it would therefore disadvantage Conservative and Labour more or less equally.
[/quote]
It seems we're in agreement then.
[/quote]
there can be no doubt that the system fucks up the liberals more
[quote author=Fox link=topic=40111.msg1100922#msg1100922 date=1273226526]
It should never have come to this if people had voted on the current state of the country, the policies needed to get us back on the line financially and stop voting because what someone did to their grandparents in their generation.
Sorry it makes me angry, voting should not be done IMO on what a party did yrs ago. Otherwise New labour could never have worked, perhaps the Tories should have put "new" in front as well
[/quote]
Yeah mate, Actually fuck it lets all go out and buy copies of The Lying Rag, cos lets face it what they did was a couple of decades ago and maybe we need to get over it or something.
Na, fuck that.
It should never have come to this if people had voted on the current state of the country, the policies needed to get us back on the line financially and stop voting because what someone did to their grandparents in their generation.
Sorry it makes me angry, voting should not be done IMO on what a party did yrs ago. Otherwise New labour could never have worked, perhaps the Tories should have put "new" in front as well
[/quote]
Yeah mate, Actually fuck it lets all go out and buy copies of The Lying Rag, cos lets face it what they did was a couple of decades ago and maybe we need to get over it or something.
Na, fuck that.
[quote author=Pesam link=topic=40111.msg1100918#msg1100918 date=1273226260]
The Tories have fucked up again. They have continually fucked up and in the last 3 elections and got mullered. This time they had a sitting-duck Labour party with a punch-drunk Prime Minister to aim at and they failed to get a majority! How they thought the electorate would warm to those Bullingdon Boys I'll never know, given any half-decent leader they would have strolled to a huge majority.
If we get another election and Labour appoint a decent leader the Tories will be annihilated.
[/quote]
^^^^^^
Did you lose much then?
The Tories have fucked up again. They have continually fucked up and in the last 3 elections and got mullered. This time they had a sitting-duck Labour party with a punch-drunk Prime Minister to aim at and they failed to get a majority! How they thought the electorate would warm to those Bullingdon Boys I'll never know, given any half-decent leader they would have strolled to a huge majority.
If we get another election and Labour appoint a decent leader the Tories will be annihilated.
[/quote]
^^^^^^
Did you lose much then?
[quote author=Asim link=topic=40111.msg1100975#msg1100975 date=1273230550]
[quote author=Fox link=topic=40111.msg1100922#msg1100922 date=1273226526]
It should never have come to this if people had voted on the current state of the country, the policies needed to get us back on the line financially and stop voting because what someone did to their grandparents in their generation.
Sorry it makes me angry, voting should not be done IMO on what a party did yrs ago. Otherwise New labour could never have worked, perhaps the Tories should have put "new" in front as well
[/quote]
Yeah mate, Actually fuck it lets all go out and buy copies of The Lying Rag, cos lets face it what they did was a couple of decades ago and maybe we need to get over it or something.
Na, fuck that.
[/quote]
Go to bed, Asim !
[quote author=Fox link=topic=40111.msg1100922#msg1100922 date=1273226526]
It should never have come to this if people had voted on the current state of the country, the policies needed to get us back on the line financially and stop voting because what someone did to their grandparents in their generation.
Sorry it makes me angry, voting should not be done IMO on what a party did yrs ago. Otherwise New labour could never have worked, perhaps the Tories should have put "new" in front as well
[/quote]
Yeah mate, Actually fuck it lets all go out and buy copies of The Lying Rag, cos lets face it what they did was a couple of decades ago and maybe we need to get over it or something.
Na, fuck that.
[/quote]
Go to bed, Asim !
[quote author=Asim link=topic=40111.msg1100975#msg1100975 date=1273230550]
[quote author=Fox link=topic=40111.msg1100922#msg1100922 date=1273226526]
It should never have come to this if people had voted on the current state of the country, the policies needed to get us back on the line financially and stop voting because what someone did to their grandparents in their generation.
Sorry it makes me angry, voting should not be done IMO on what a party did yrs ago. Otherwise New labour could never have worked, perhaps the Tories should have put "new" in front as well
[/quote]
Yeah mate, Actually fuck it lets all go out and buy copies of The Lying Rag, cos lets face it what they did was a couple of decades ago and maybe we need to get over it or something.
Na, fuck that.
[/quote]
Lets not buy German cars! Or Saabs for that matter, those fucking Vikings with their raping and their pillaging!
[quote author=Fox link=topic=40111.msg1100922#msg1100922 date=1273226526]
It should never have come to this if people had voted on the current state of the country, the policies needed to get us back on the line financially and stop voting because what someone did to their grandparents in their generation.
Sorry it makes me angry, voting should not be done IMO on what a party did yrs ago. Otherwise New labour could never have worked, perhaps the Tories should have put "new" in front as well
[/quote]
Yeah mate, Actually fuck it lets all go out and buy copies of The Lying Rag, cos lets face it what they did was a couple of decades ago and maybe we need to get over it or something.
Na, fuck that.
[/quote]
Lets not buy German cars! Or Saabs for that matter, those fucking Vikings with their raping and their pillaging!
[quote author=Asim link=topic=40111.msg1100975#msg1100975 date=1273230550]
[quote author=Fox link=topic=40111.msg1100922#msg1100922 date=1273226526]
It should never have come to this if people had voted on the current state of the country, the policies needed to get us back on the line financially and stop voting because what someone did to their grandparents in their generation.
Sorry it makes me angry, voting should not be done IMO on what a party did yrs ago. Otherwise New labour could never have worked, perhaps the Tories should have put "new" in front as well
[/quote]
Yeah mate, Actually fuck it lets all go out and buy copies of The Lying Rag, cos lets face it what they did was a couple of decades ago and maybe we need to get over it or something.
Na, fuck that.
[/quote]
fox is absolutely right. anyone who voters tribally is pretty pathetic really, and i include myself in that. your point about The Lying Rag is beneath contempt: does that mean, for example, you condone the real IRA?
[quote author=Fox link=topic=40111.msg1100922#msg1100922 date=1273226526]
It should never have come to this if people had voted on the current state of the country, the policies needed to get us back on the line financially and stop voting because what someone did to their grandparents in their generation.
Sorry it makes me angry, voting should not be done IMO on what a party did yrs ago. Otherwise New labour could never have worked, perhaps the Tories should have put "new" in front as well
[/quote]
Yeah mate, Actually fuck it lets all go out and buy copies of The Lying Rag, cos lets face it what they did was a couple of decades ago and maybe we need to get over it or something.
Na, fuck that.
[/quote]
fox is absolutely right. anyone who voters tribally is pretty pathetic really, and i include myself in that. your point about The Lying Rag is beneath contempt: does that mean, for example, you condone the real IRA?
[quote author=Asim link=topic=40111.msg1100985#msg1100985 date=1273231115]
My point is Fox is saying that's the only reason people didn't vote Cons, it's not exactly true.
I did go sleep
[/quote]
i think it's a big, big factor.
My point is Fox is saying that's the only reason people didn't vote Cons, it's not exactly true.
I did go sleep
[/quote]
i think it's a big, big factor.
[quote author=peterhague link=topic=40111.msg1100990#msg1100990 date=1273231374]
[quote author=Asim link=topic=40111.msg1100985#msg1100985 date=1273231115]
My point is Fox is saying that's the only reason people didn't vote Cons, it's not exactly true.
I did go sleep
[/quote]
i think it's a big, big factor.
[/quote]
Cameron being a bit of a twat is probably another.
[quote author=Asim link=topic=40111.msg1100985#msg1100985 date=1273231115]
My point is Fox is saying that's the only reason people didn't vote Cons, it's not exactly true.
I did go sleep
[/quote]
i think it's a big, big factor.
[/quote]
Cameron being a bit of a twat is probably another.
[quote author=Asim link=topic=40111.msg1100991#msg1100991 date=1273231440]
[quote author=peterhague link=topic=40111.msg1100990#msg1100990 date=1273231374]
[quote author=Asim link=topic=40111.msg1100985#msg1100985 date=1273231115]
My point is Fox is saying that's the only reason people didn't vote Cons, it's not exactly true.
I did go sleep
[/quote]
i think it's a big, big factor.
[/quote]
Cameron being a bit of a twat is probably another.
[/quote]
i dunno really. i suppose on one level he's done incredibly well to get them so close, but on another he never espoused some of the right-wing stuff like lower taxes & the laffer curve that i believe are the compelling reasons why everyone should vote tory. but all the evidence is that the public just don't understand these things...overall i don't think anyone could have done better.
i think ultimately the main problem was the financial crisis: it confused their message and forced him away from his really strong ground of positive, uplifting rhetoric, and giving a relative boost to brown given that he has much more credibility as a steady hand - illusory though it is, imo.
[quote author=peterhague link=topic=40111.msg1100990#msg1100990 date=1273231374]
[quote author=Asim link=topic=40111.msg1100985#msg1100985 date=1273231115]
My point is Fox is saying that's the only reason people didn't vote Cons, it's not exactly true.
I did go sleep
[/quote]
i think it's a big, big factor.
[/quote]
Cameron being a bit of a twat is probably another.
[/quote]
i dunno really. i suppose on one level he's done incredibly well to get them so close, but on another he never espoused some of the right-wing stuff like lower taxes & the laffer curve that i believe are the compelling reasons why everyone should vote tory. but all the evidence is that the public just don't understand these things...overall i don't think anyone could have done better.
i think ultimately the main problem was the financial crisis: it confused their message and forced him away from his really strong ground of positive, uplifting rhetoric, and giving a relative boost to brown given that he has much more credibility as a steady hand - illusory though it is, imo.
[quote author=peterhague link=topic=40111.msg1100999#msg1100999 date=1273232604]
[quote author=Asim link=topic=40111.msg1100991#msg1100991 date=1273231440]
[quote author=peterhague link=topic=40111.msg1100990#msg1100990 date=1273231374]
[quote author=Asim link=topic=40111.msg1100985#msg1100985 date=1273231115]
My point is Fox is saying that's the only reason people didn't vote Cons, it's not exactly true.
I did go sleep
[/quote]
i think it's a big, big factor.
[/quote]
Cameron being a bit of a twat is probably another.
[/quote]
i dunno really. i suppose on one level he's done incredibly well to get them so close, but on another he never espoused some of the right-wing stuff like lower taxes & the laffer curve that i believe are the compelling reasons why everyone should vote tory. but all the evidence is that the public just don't understand these things...overall i don't think anyone could have done better.
i think ultimately the main problem was the financial crisis: it confused their message and forced him away from his really strong ground of positive, uplifting rhetoric, and giving a relative boost to brown given that he has much more credibility as a steady hand - illusory though it is, imo.
[/quote]
I think you are right, the scare tactics of labour on the tories worked for some people. Labour led their fight for the whole campaign about the risk of letting the tories in, they had the most negative capaign you could have.
I suppose it has worked for a lot of people scared of change.
Also at a good guess I expect Labour still got alot of votes from public sector workers scared of losing their jobs that labour created. The stupid thing is both parties would have chopped the same in the end anyway, cuts have to be made
[quote author=Asim link=topic=40111.msg1100991#msg1100991 date=1273231440]
[quote author=peterhague link=topic=40111.msg1100990#msg1100990 date=1273231374]
[quote author=Asim link=topic=40111.msg1100985#msg1100985 date=1273231115]
My point is Fox is saying that's the only reason people didn't vote Cons, it's not exactly true.
I did go sleep
[/quote]
i think it's a big, big factor.
[/quote]
Cameron being a bit of a twat is probably another.
[/quote]
i dunno really. i suppose on one level he's done incredibly well to get them so close, but on another he never espoused some of the right-wing stuff like lower taxes & the laffer curve that i believe are the compelling reasons why everyone should vote tory. but all the evidence is that the public just don't understand these things...overall i don't think anyone could have done better.
i think ultimately the main problem was the financial crisis: it confused their message and forced him away from his really strong ground of positive, uplifting rhetoric, and giving a relative boost to brown given that he has much more credibility as a steady hand - illusory though it is, imo.
[/quote]
I think you are right, the scare tactics of labour on the tories worked for some people. Labour led their fight for the whole campaign about the risk of letting the tories in, they had the most negative capaign you could have.
I suppose it has worked for a lot of people scared of change.
Also at a good guess I expect Labour still got alot of votes from public sector workers scared of losing their jobs that labour created. The stupid thing is both parties would have chopped the same in the end anyway, cuts have to be made
Its nailed on that Whitehall and the NHS are going to get raped by either party.
Gordon is like milwall, no one likes him and he doesn't care.
Gordon is like milwall, no one likes him and he doesn't care.
[quote author=Rouge Penguin link=topic=40111.msg1101009#msg1101009 date=1273233549]
Its nailed on that Whitehall and the NHS are going to get raped by either party.
Gordon is like milwall, no one likes him and he doesn't care.
[/quote]
Millwall aren't about to be relegated.
Its nailed on that Whitehall and the NHS are going to get raped by either party.
Gordon is like milwall, no one likes him and he doesn't care.
[/quote]
Millwall aren't about to be relegated.
[quote author=Asim link=topic=40111.msg1101007#msg1101007 date=1273233388]
Most negative campaign from Labour?
The cons was pretty bad also, did you guys not have the billboard round your area?
[/quote]
yes I saw them and the tores were guilty of some but I never heard Brown answer a question in the debate about what he would do without turning it into what the tories would do. add to that that alot of what he was saying was not even accurate.
Every labour MP I heard on the radio did the same thing, hence the comments to vote liberal the other day to keep Tories out. Not trying to win but make the winner have less.
Most negative campaign from Labour?
The cons was pretty bad also, did you guys not have the billboard round your area?
[/quote]
yes I saw them and the tores were guilty of some but I never heard Brown answer a question in the debate about what he would do without turning it into what the tories would do. add to that that alot of what he was saying was not even accurate.
Every labour MP I heard on the radio did the same thing, hence the comments to vote liberal the other day to keep Tories out. Not trying to win but make the winner have less.
[quote author=Fox link=topic=40111.msg1101018#msg1101018 date=1273234220]
[quote author=Asim link=topic=40111.msg1101007#msg1101007 date=1273233388]
Most negative campaign from Labour?
The cons was pretty bad also, did you guys not have the billboard round your area?
[/quote]
yes I saw them and the tores were guilty of some but I never heard Brown answer a question in the debate about what he would do without turning it into what the tories would do. add to that that alot of what he was saying was not even accurate.
Every labour MP I heard on the radio did the same thing, hence the comments to vote liberal the other day to keep Tories out. Not trying to win but make the winner have less.
[/quote]
The Tories would do exactly the same. .
[quote author=Asim link=topic=40111.msg1101007#msg1101007 date=1273233388]
Most negative campaign from Labour?
The cons was pretty bad also, did you guys not have the billboard round your area?
[/quote]
yes I saw them and the tores were guilty of some but I never heard Brown answer a question in the debate about what he would do without turning it into what the tories would do. add to that that alot of what he was saying was not even accurate.
Every labour MP I heard on the radio did the same thing, hence the comments to vote liberal the other day to keep Tories out. Not trying to win but make the winner have less.
[/quote]
The Tories would do exactly the same. .
[quote author=Asim link=topic=40111.msg1101007#msg1101007 date=1273233388]
Most negative campaign from Labour?
The cons was pretty bad also, did you guys not have the billboard round your area?
[/quote]
the broad picture is quite clearly that labour was more negative. i'm sure we can both point to individual tactics on the micro level - upsetting cancer patients with targeted leaflets, anyone? - but the larger campaign run by brown was relentlessly - almost incredibly - negative.
Most negative campaign from Labour?
The cons was pretty bad also, did you guys not have the billboard round your area?
[/quote]
the broad picture is quite clearly that labour was more negative. i'm sure we can both point to individual tactics on the micro level - upsetting cancer patients with targeted leaflets, anyone? - but the larger campaign run by brown was relentlessly - almost incredibly - negative.
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